# Would you do this kind of puzzle?

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This would be a puzzle that COULD be armchair solved, but more fun if you actually did it as intended: By walking (3-4 hours) or bicycling (maybe an hour or so) from downtown along the Springwater Corridor -- a rails-to-trails multi-use path in Portland Oregon.

Would go something like this: "Start in downtown and walk or pedal across the oldest bridge; note the year it was built (A) When you get to the east side, find the submarine; note the number on its sail (. ... etc ... "

So each stage would be something interesting to look at and have some number to collect. Near the end there'd be somewhat obscure info on how to turn all the collected numbers into the final coords. I'd purposely make it difficult or impossible to drive the route, and the last stage would be within a 10-15 minute walk from the light-rail that could take folks back downtown to their starting point.

Fun? Or too much bother?

These are the kind of caches that get favorite points.

I'd certainly do it. Makes me want to create something similar here... You might want to add in the description an estimate of how much time the seeker should expect to take, though.

More walking then I can do so I would pass. I like the idea just not the walking.

Yes, please include how many stages, distance traveled or estimated time needed. Just some kind of estimate. And appropriate T ratings. Otherwise, it sounds fun!!

I'd love something like this in my area, as long as it was a relatively flat course, I'm not good on hills. I'd also like to have some kind of indication of how far away from my car i'm likely to end up, we geocache with a 15mth old so we have to carry different things depending on how far away we get. Other than that it sounds like an excellent way to explore a new city!

This would be a puzzle that COULD be armchair solved, but more fun if you actually did it as intended: By walking (3-4 hours) or bicycling (maybe an hour or so) from downtown along the Springwater Corridor -- a rails-to-trails multi-use path in Portland Oregon.

Would go something like this: "Start in downtown and walk or pedal across the oldest bridge; note the year it was built (A) When you get to the east side, find the submarine; note the number on its sail (. ... etc ... "

So each stage would be something interesting to look at and have some number to collect. Near the end there'd be somewhat obscure info on how to turn all the collected numbers into the final coords. I'd purposely make it difficult or impossible to drive the route, and the last stage would be within a 10-15 minute walk from the light-rail that could take folks back downtown to their starting point.

Fun? Or too much bother?

Think I've seen one in our area. They included pictures and you had to be in that exact spot to get a reading you needed to continue. Haven't done it yet. Someone has my bike.

It sounds very interesting, several UK towns have similar 'guided tour' caches that show off interesting locations.

Just remember that for it to pass review there must be GPS usage - it can't be all done just by following the written instructions.

Good luck setting it up.

MrsB

So each stage would be something interesting to look at and have some number to collect. Near the end there'd be somewhat obscure info on how to turn all the collected numbers into the final coords.

This description reads as a multi-cache, not a puzzle. Just FYI.

We'd do it, sounds like our favourite kind.

I wouldn't worry too much about people working it out from their armchair and just driving to the final. Some people are lazy, many have good reason like captnemo, the main thing is that a good planned walk is an option for those that like that kind of cache and all finds count. I love the detail of maybe getting the light-rail back, some great walks just don't have a circular option.

Good luck with it.

Sounds good to me, and just the sort of thing I like. A couple of things I would suggest are:

1. Say on the page how far the trail is, and give an approximate idea of were the cacher is going to end up; something like "this is a 2 mile walk which finishes in the North East area of town."; and mention that there will be public transport which will bring the cacher back to the start point.

2. If there are any obstacles (e.g. stairs/steps) mention them so that people with buggies/wheelchairs wont get a nasty surprise half way round.

3. I'm fine with making it not driveable, but it would be good if it could be made cycleable.

So each stage would be something interesting to look at and have some number to collect. Near the end there'd be somewhat obscure info on how to turn all the collected numbers into the final coords.

This description reads as a multi-cache, not a puzzle. Just FYI.

+1

If I was being honest, I'd probably try to brute force it. We have a number of these multis in our area. I remember one which would have taken hours and hours to bike it and then you ended up right where you started. If the spots are places I have felt I have already been to or seem relatively common especially if they are just getting an address, year on a plaque etc, I would personally try to brute force it.

I would enjoy that kind of multi where the numbers are gotten from plaques, etc. I've given up on doing a multi with containers along the way after trying 2 in a row where one container was missing on each.

So, yes, I would love doing this one. I'd like to see a submarine with a sail.

So each stage would be something interesting to look at and have some number to collect. Near the end there'd be somewhat obscure info on how to turn all the collected numbers into the final coords.

This description reads as a multi-cache, not a puzzle. Just FYI.

Looks like another change in the descriptions... But I think it still fits the Unknown class better... apparently many reviewers think that too. I haven't looked for the change date, but I know of at least one like this published quite recently as an unknown.

Under your link, multi does not include anything but multiple sets of coordinates, no mention of puzzles. This proposal has a gathering of information, based on a route description, followed by a calculation, which does fit a puzzle or mystery to solve for coordinates.

There are many of these based on previous descriptions of multi/unknown. I'm glad to see some attempt at clarification, but it needs more work obviously. Puzzles seem to occur in multis and in unknowns, and both can have multiple sets of locations, even multiple puzzles to solve at home or in the field. Since Unknown is a catch all type I'd lean that way as long as it is well described.

I like this type of cache regardless of the type, so the OP should go ahead, checking with their local reviewer for guidance as to type when it is fully defined.

I would enjoy that kind of multi where the numbers are gotten from plaques, etc. I've given up on doing a multi with containers along the way after trying 2 in a row where one container was missing on each.

So, yes, I would love doing this one. I'd like to see a submarine with a sail.

In naval parlance, the sail (American usage) or fin (European/Commonwealth usage) of a submarine is the tower-like structure found on the dorsal (topside) surface of submarines. Submarine sails usually house the conning tower (command and communications data center), the periscope(s), radar and communications masts (antenna).

When surfaced, the sail serves as an observation platform. Historically, much of the submarine control was performed from the conning tower located inside the sail superstructure,[1] but some newer submarines can be controlled entirely from the bridge. The sail also provides an entrance and exit point on the submarine that has enough freeboard to prevent the submarine being swamped.

This is a cache we would enjoy doing. Have done some similar to this idea.

Edited by wigoweb
So each stage would be something interesting to look at and have some number to collect. Near the end there'd be somewhat obscure info on how to turn all the collected numbers into the final coords.
This description reads as a multi-cache, not a puzzle. Just FYI.
I think a lot depends on just how "obscure" the the method is to generate the final coordinates. If it's simple substitution, counting, and basic arithmetic, then I'd list it as a multi-cache with virtual waypoints. For example:
The final is at N 37° 25.ABC W 122° 06.DEF where:

A = (the last digit in the year the bridge was built at stage 1)

B = (the number on the sail at stage 2) + 2

C = (the number of quail statues at stage 3) - 1

...

If there's anything more complicated involved, then I'd list it as a mystery/puzzle cache.

So each stage would be something interesting to look at and have some number to collect. Near the end there'd be somewhat obscure info on how to turn all the collected numbers into the final coords.
This description reads as a multi-cache, not a puzzle. Just FYI.
I think a lot depends on just how "obscure" the the method is to generate the final coordinates. If it's simple substitution, counting, and basic arithmetic, then I'd list it as a multi-cache with virtual waypoints. For example:
The final is at N 37° 25.ABC W 122° 06.DEF where:

A = (the last digit in the year the bridge was built at stage 1)

B = (the number on the sail at stage 2) + 2

C = (the number of quail statues at stage 3) - 1

...

If there's anything more complicated involved, then I'd list it as a mystery/puzzle cache.

+1

If the method to obtain the final numbers was relatively clear/simple/easy, then I would most certainly enjoy a cache like this.

If I get to the end only to realize I need advanced calculus skills to get the co-ordinates I'm not going to be a happy camper.

I'm going to be visiting in the Portland area next month. Please hurry and get it done!

I have one like that, a history tour of Cooperstown. I get a few people doing it every year. Cooperstown gets a lot of traffic in the summer- probably not so many people would try it in a less visited area.

Yes, I would. I love those type of caches. Keep it simple and fun is the key. I like the fact that it can be armchair solved. That tell me it would be a fun cache to do if I cant solve it online.

I live south of you and if I am in Portland, I would seek out that cache of yours.

Here is one cache thats similar and solved it really fast from the top of my head. If u arent able to solve it, you can drive to each location to solve the puzzle. http://coord.info/GC3931C

Edited by SwineFlew

1) Thanks for all the feedback, especially the "I like it" encouragement.

2) I'm still a little hazy myself on the distinction between puzzle, multi, mystery etc. My thinking was not "multi" because I'm only placing one physical container - everything else will be already in place. And more "puzzle" because I'm expecting you'll need to figure out things from description and from each point you're directed to, to find your way from the beginning to end. Whichever type I list it as, I'll happily change it if the local reviewer wants me to.

3) As far as the puzzling details go, they'll be easy to do but hard to brute-force. The math will be simple A+B+C kind of stuff and most of the A's and B's will be easy to find. But you'll need to extract some numbers from the last few locations to find the final, and THOSE won't be easy to find. You'll absolutely have to visit the penultimate spot and use your noggin. Something like "You should be at a train station by now. Get the last digit from the serial number on the phone box. If even, go north - if odd, go south - to the next station on the line ..." Simple but not easy to find from your arm chair.

4) Regarding terrain, I'd call the terrain 1.5 or maybe a 2 if you're really out of shape. I'd put time & distance required up front in the description:

"This trek starts downtown Portland and ends in southeast, Lents Neighborhood. The route is approximately 12 miles, paved all the way, not very hilly, and can be done fastest by bicycle - this is how I get home from work when the weather is nice. The cache is within a ten minute walk of a light-rail station that can get you back downtown in less than an hour, if you don't mind buying a ticket."

Here's a 16-stage multicache that may serve as an example: http://coord.info/GC1EM3H

The first 15 stages provide the 15 digits of the final coordinates, which is the 16th stage. It provides a nice walking tour of the downtown area.

I've done plenty of crazy long multi/puzzle caches. If it is rated properly and the cache page is interesting then people will do it (it will just be a small number). It sounds like you'll be doing more of a puzzle if it's all based on description, but if you list the waypoints for each stage then you'd have a multi.

12 miles is a lot of walking many people would want to break that up. If it cannot be broken up or driven in any part I'd rate it at a 3 due to distance.

Also make sure your description is clear enough for out of towners to do.

Ike - thanks! From your explanation I can ensure this fits as puzzle, by not listing waypoints for each stage. I can set it up so the description and things found along the way will guide you from point to point

12 miles is a lot of walking and the bulk of the route is on a multi-use path that does not allow motor vehicles. Overview map:

The starting point could be any place downtown (purple oval upper left), the final will be in the Lents neighborhood (purple rectangle on right). Majority of the puzzle will be found along the Springwater Corridor (red path in lower third of map. I said the FASTEST way to do it would be by bike, but if you wanted to section it over a number of trips you could parking at nearby trailheads each day and walk whichever part you want. So is this still a T3 in your view?

There are a lot of other folks' caches along the way, just in case mine at the end of the path isn't enough to hold someone's interest.

I have a cache similar to your idea called "The Great Tour De Boken." It takes the cacher throughout the entire city of Hoboken, NJ. It's quite a walk, with different virtual like stages that provide info leading to the final coordinates. A small amount of people have done it, but I've gotten good feedback on it!

There is a cache like this at Ohio State University. We did it on our first visit to Ohio State. We've been there twice now and have yet to find the cache, but still had so much fun doing the steps that we don't care! It gave us a good tour of the university. And we've talked to some cachers from that area and found we were close - next time we'll get the smilie! I think that kind of cache is great. We saw things I know we wouldn't have seen if we hadn't pursued this, and I still remember that day as one of our best geocaching adventures!

So each stage would be something interesting to look at and have some number to collect. Near the end there'd be somewhat obscure info on how to turn all the collected numbers into the final coords.

This description reads as a multi-cache, not a puzzle. Just FYI.

I could see this being listed as a letterbox-hybrid.

I could see this being listed as a letterbox-hybrid.

That would be a nice finale and would probably up the favourites count.

I still wouldn't do this cache in its full glory though. I'd brute-force it (as someone else said) or wait for spoiler logs and photos to lead me there.

This sounds like the type of fun city walk I would do. That distance one way is off-set by knowing there is an easy return via public transit. 10 - 12 miles is not that bad for me

I like that it could be a multi-stage effort capturing the clues and seeing other caches along the way. As you mention, there is opportunity to drive to multiple entry points along the way and get closer to the needed clue points. It would make for a nice long weekend and open the opportunity to those without a bike and unable to do such a long walk in one go.

I also like that it appears that there is a nice view of a creekside habitat all along the way.

I am not big on city caching, I prefer to be a bit more out in nature. This effort sounds like a fun way to see interersting things.

A submarine, really???

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