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Permission or Not?


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A quick question which may or may not help other newbies like myself.

 

Under the rules etc for the site it does mention that you have to get the land owners permission when you place a cache. Now surely this is down to common sense. I can guess in some countries this would be very different but here in the UK if you are placing something simple like a micro magnetinc on the back of a road sign or a 35mm film cannister along a footpath which runs along a field etc then surely do people seek permission of a farmer or the council for placing the cache on their property?

 

Be nice to hear what others think!

 

Paul

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Oh dear have I really opened one? I guess by that this may have been brought up in the past.

It says "adequate permission" (or at least, it used to). For some things you will be asked to show explicit permission, e.g. SSSIs, churchyards, etc. For other things use your common sense, but do try to consider from the landowner's viewpoint too.

 

Rgds, Andy

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On the new Beta version of the Submission page it still says 'By submitting a geocache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location' - that's after it's told you off for having a temp'd or 'needs maintenance' attribute on a cache or two. Could the OP say where they saw the new rules shown? It wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that there's conflicting information about cache placement on GC.com ;)

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I've just taken a look at the help section which is as below.

 

You assure us that you have the landowner's and/or land manager's permission before you hide any geocache, whether placed on private or public property.

 

Which can be found here

 

Now this is where for the UK common sense should take hold as far as I can see. If you are placing a small nano under a post box or the back of a road sign down a quiet country lane do you have to contact Royal Mail for a post box, the local Council for the road sign or even the local parish council because the road sign or post box is located on their grass verge? Having said all this anything in the UK that requires common sense these days teh government has created a law where you have to get it signed off by some professional holding a piece of paper just because someone got hurt by poking a drill bit in the eye.

 

Sorry but that is how we have become at times in the UK and I just wanted to see how strict the site is on these things. I can understand that some countries are very strict as we all know we all live different life styles etc.

 

Paul

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If you can't find anywhere better to place a cache than a 'nano' on the back of a road sign of a leaky 35mm film pot chucked under a hedge then might I respectfully suggest that you forget geocaching and take up waterskiing instead.

I didn't say that much in my first reply, but I wholly agree with the sentiments :lol: .

 

Rgds, Andy

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If you can't find anywhere better to place a cache than a 'nano' on the back of a road sign of a leaky 35mm film pot chucked under a hedge then might I respectfully suggest that you forget geocaching and take up waterskiing instead.

 

 

John!! Even for a renowned and much referenced nanophobe as yourself that is a bit strong :lol: :lol: :lol:

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If you can't find anywhere better to place a cache than a 'nano' on the back of a road sign of a leaky 35mm film pot chucked under a hedge then might I respectfully suggest that you forget geocaching and take up waterskiing instead.

 

So for creating your first cache I should be looking to sit it on top of some mountain or something where someone requires specialist equipment to get to it and then due to the change in the site terms and conditions get taken to court because someone twisted an ankle or worse got killed by falling off a cliff face as it is my responsability.

 

This reminds me of when I took up photography in a beginners section I took a photo of a sunset and got slated by the judge saying "Oh we have all seen sunsets before". What ever happened to people realising that it was a beginners section where we all have to start somewhere. I beleive I did first post in the thread about being a newbie. Obviously its not practical to post questions in the forums where 90% of the members know the answers.

 

Brings me back to common sense again.

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If you can't find anywhere better to place a cache than a 'nano' on the back of a road sign of a leaky 35mm film pot chucked under a hedge then might I respectfully suggest that you forget geocaching and take up waterskiing instead.

 

What ever happened to people realising that it was a beginners section where we all have to start somewhere. I beleive I did first post in the thread about being a newbie. Obviously its not practical to post questions in the forums where 90% of the members know the answers.

 

Brings me back to common sense again.

 

Langy, you have to forgive John, he is a grumpy old f**t (at least a week older than me and far more grumpy :lol: ) and his views on micros and nanos have long been known on this fourm. He is a very nice bloke without a malicious bone in his body :o :o (except where micros and nanos are concerned :lol: :lol: ) and his remarks have to be taken with an exceptioanlly large pinch of salt.

 

This place is exactly the right one to come to for your answers to questions about UK caching - but you do need to be a bit armour plated for some of the answers.

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So for creating your first cache I should be looking to sit it on top of some mountain or something where someone requires specialist equipment to get to it

 

No :)

We've placed a few caches and I can say that none of them are on tops of mountains or require specialist equipment

They've received several hundred Favourite points in total so they can't be that bad...

 

I'll even go as far to say that there is nothing wrong with a film pot behind a road sign as long as there is a reason for it to be there! B)

 

 

Mark

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So for creating your first cache I should be looking to sit it on top of some mountain or something where someone requires specialist equipment to get to it and then due to the change in the site terms and conditions get taken to court because someone twisted an ankle or worse got killed by falling off a cliff face as it is my responsability.

 

...

 

Brings me back to common sense again.

It's about cache quality. Quality means different things to different people, but very few nanos or micros stuck on street furniture would be rated as high quality hides by most people.

 

The quality of most things, and that includes caches, usually is proportional to the amount of thought and effort that has gone into them. Road sign caches are easy to do, rarely needing much thought or effort, and that reflects in the quality of the hide.

 

For some folks numbers are everything, and quality isn't important. As a newbie you probably have yet to find which group you will tend towards. I really hope it is into a quality cacher. If you think that is the way you would prefer to play the game, giving some careful thought to your first placement is a good start.

 

Rgds, Andy

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If you can't find anywhere better to place a cache than a 'nano' on the back of a road sign of a leaky 35mm film pot chucked under a hedge then might I respectfully suggest that you forget geocaching and take up waterskiing instead.

I didn't say that much in my first reply, but I wholly agree with the sentiments :lol: .

 

Rgds, Andy

 

Langy, welcome to this wonderful friendly and pleasant passtime.

Unfortunately there are some who would like to insist that all caches hidden today are the same as in the good old days when Noah set sale for a FTF :rolleyes:

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Langy, welcome to this wonderful friendly and pleasant passtime.

Richard, it IS a friendly and pleasant pastime. These comments weren't unfriendly. You should be able to tell that the wording was tongue in cheek, but that the sentiment was trying to guide a new cacher towards thinking about quality.

 

Rgds, Andy

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So for creating your first cache I should be looking to sit it on top of some mountain or something where someone requires specialist equipment to get to it and then due to the change in the site terms and conditions get taken to court because someone twisted an ankle or worse got killed by falling off a cliff face as it is my responsability.

Not at all. An ammo box in an old hollow tree stump at the end of a long walk will keep John happy, and save the dangers of climbing mountains without all the necessary paraphenalia and support team.

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Langy, you have to forgive John, he is a grumpy old f**t (at least a week older than me and far more grumpy :lol: ) and his views on micros and nanos have long been known on this fourm. He is a very nice bloke without a malicious bone in his body :o :o (except where micros and nanos are concerned :lol: :lol: ) and his remarks have to be taken with an exceptioanlly large pinch of salt.

 

This place is exactly the right one to come to for your answers to questions about UK caching - but you do need to be a bit armour plated for some of the answers.

 

GRUMPY..... moi?

How dare you, Sir.... My second will be calling on you in the morning

:P

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If you can't find anywhere better to place a cache than a 'nano' on the back of a road sign of a leaky 35mm film pot chucked under a hedge then might I respectfully suggest that you forget geocaching and take up waterskiing instead.

 

Hey, The road sign might be one of the oldest in Britain, a historic hidden gem with beautiful ornamental writing situated on an ancient trackway close to a quaint country village.

 

The hedge may be be fantastic topiary where the hedge trimming artist has snipped out a full representation of the wooden horse of Troy in an unknown corner of a pretty country park.

 

...unfortunately the above examples would probably need permission!!

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If you can't find anywhere better to place a cache than a 'nano' on the back of a road sign of a leaky 35mm film pot chucked under a hedge then might I respectfully suggest that you forget geocaching and take up waterskiing instead.

 

Hey, The road sign might be one of the oldest in Britain, a historic hidden gem with beautiful ornamental writing situated on an ancient trackway close to a quaint country village.

 

The hedge may be be fantastic topiary where the hedge trimming artist has snipped out a full representation of the wooden horse of Troy in an unknown corner of a pretty country park.

 

...unfortunately the above examples would probably need permission!!

 

Hedge Your Bets http://coord.info/GCNQVV a very nice multi.

Check the info from the Topiary. Go and find a nice Ammo Box! :D

 

05b54abe-11e3-4251-a693-01d491cecf91.jpg

 

Oh for the 'Good Old Days" :laughing:

Edited by Bear and Ragged
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If you can't find anywhere better to place a cache than a 'nano' on the back of a road sign of a leaky 35mm film pot chucked under a hedge then might I respectfully suggest that you forget geocaching and take up waterskiing instead.

 

What ever happened to people realising that it was a beginners section where we all have to start somewhere. I beleive I did first post in the thread about being a newbie. Obviously its not practical to post questions in the forums where 90% of the members know the answers.

 

Brings me back to common sense again.

 

Langy, you have to forgive John, he is a grumpy old f**t (at least a week older than me and far more grumpy :lol: ) and his views on micros and nanos have long been known on this fourm. He is a very nice bloke without a malicious bone in his body :o :o (except where micros and nanos are concerned :lol: :lol: ) and his remarks have to be taken with an exceptioanlly large pinch of salt.

 

This place is exactly the right one to come to for your answers to questions about UK caching - but you do need to be a bit armour plated for some of the answers.

 

We need more John's in this forum instead of the pussy footing/fence sitters we have now, even the two old "GoGs" are becoming softies :o

 

As Dave said John doesn't have a malicious bone in his body, (just an odd surfners sense of humour :P ) but if he has something to say then he says it, is that not what a discussion forum is all about?

 

John and the GoGs go back a long way, and they talk a lot of sense (most of the time ) the newbies could learn a lot from them, but if you ask a question in an open forum you have to expect folks to agree with you and folks not to agree with you, and give their opinions why.

 

I have a good supply of metal knickers acquired from many years of using this forum. :ph34r:

 

M :D

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As a long time G.O.G. Could I first suggest you consider what John (Pharisee) is trying to get over in his own inimical way. ;) if you are wanting to set your own geocache why not try and make it a little bit special or different? Try and find a location just a little bit more interesting than others you have visited. Try and use a container that is more pleasurable to find than some you have found. Try and write a cache page just a little more original and better researched than some you have read.

 

What I am trying to suggest is try to ADD to the geocaching experience rather than just following the herd.

 

As for permission, this has been a matter of contention ever since I started and definitely during my time as a reviewer. My take on it, when I had responsibility for interpreting the rules (laughingly still called "guidelines") was very much the common sense approach. I knew full well that many (most?) caches I published didn't have express permission but at the end of the day did it really matter that an ammo box in a hollow tree stump existed? Or a Tupperware box hidden behind a tree in a hedge? Or even a magnetic micro behind a street sign (sorry John :)) ? No of course not. Conversely an ammo box placed within view of the gate of an army camp would start alarm bells ringing, or a sandwich box overlooked by CCTV in the financial heart of a major city, or a film pot under a stone at the base of a war memorial. these I would probably ask questions about.

 

Whether common sense is allowable these days though is a moot point. I fear it is not. But give it a go and see how you get on and report back.

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The original question was, about getting permission to lay a cache. Although I have not been active for a while, (long story) but have been out to bag a couple in the last few days.

I have never got permission to place a cache. If I had then it would have taken much more time to find the owner, apply for permission, and wait for an answer.

Most of the caches I placed were on public land. Do I need permission to kick a ball about on public land? This hobby/game is just that.

Private land. That is another ball game. But you hide a cache and it should be discreetly hidden, be it public or private land. We cachers are I hope sensible people. Discretion is the way it should be done. If I placed a cache in Londons Hyde park without permission, which I did, and was accepted by the grounds men there. Then to me I could place one anywhere I please.

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at the end of the day did it really matter that an ammo box in a hollow tree stump existed? Or a Tupperware box hidden behind a tree in a hedge? Or even a magnetic micro behind a street sign (sorry John :)) ? No of course not.

 

Yes it does matter, if it's on private property then the landowner should have a choice if they want it there or not. It's not just about a hidden box, it's about people looking for it and the way they look for it. Not all geocachers care about the impact their actions have on other people.

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Most of the caches I placed were on public land. Do I need permission to kick a ball about on public land? This hobby/game is just that.

Private land. That is another ball game. But you hide a cache and it should be discreetly hidden, be it public or private land. We cachers are I hope sensible people. Discretion is the way it should be done. If I placed a cache in Londons Hyde park without permission, which I did, and was accepted by the grounds men there. Then to me I could place one anywhere I please.

 

There is no such thing as public land in this country. It all belongs to somebody.

"Publicly accessible" land is still not public land,

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at the end of the day did it really matter that an ammo box in a hollow tree stump existed? Or a Tupperware box hidden behind a tree in a hedge? Or even a magnetic micro behind a street sign (sorry John :)) ? No of course not.

 

Yes it does matter, if it's on private property then the landowner should have a choice if they want it there or not. It's not just about a hidden box, it's about people looking for it and the way they look for it. Not all geocachers care about the impact their actions have on other people.

In theory, yes. But being practical as long as the location is publicly accessible then common sense should be the determining factor. In my experience over the past 10 years of being involved to a greater or lesser extent with geocaching I would argue that the vast majority of cachers DO care about their impact, probably a lot more than regular members of public who happen to pass cache locations.

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We had a cache placed on our land without permission, near to a pubic footpath but adjacent to a field due to have lambs in there (a family pet dog was shot two weeks later for running off lead amongst the sheep)

When I complained it was archived after a few days but in that short time it was active we had two occasions when cachers parked at the private entrance to our farm, leaving enough room to get a car through but the tractor wouldn't have fit through. I watched one couple try to take a short cut through the woods which are private and have no public right of way. Another (a man with a GPS so I assume he was caching) drove up to the top of the track, went off to find and then complained that they had been locked in - the shepherd had locked the gate behind him. We had to drive down to the gate to let them back out. The people who placed the cache (friends of friends so I recognised two of the group) were seen walking across three fields with no public access where there was a new born foal with a very anxious mother.

 

Nothing serious but very annoying that they see fit to just tramp where they want, and do what they want on our property. It makes me want to find out where they live, park on their drives and walk around their gardens, see how they like it.

 

The majority of cachers do care about their impact but that still leaves plenty who don't. A landowner deserves the choice of having a game played on their land or not.

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I just read that through and I know I sound a right miserable cow but I do feel like the proverbial purple faced farmer sometimes, I want to jump up and down and shout "get off my land"

If we leave the gates open we are regularly visited by 'scrap metal dealers' and have had all sorts stolen, chainsaws, generator, welding stuff, trailer, building materials so it makes us more suspicious of normal people just being nosey to see what's at the end of the track or in the barn. We've also had a couple of nasty incidents with escaped horses thanks to riders letting them out while they go through the gate.

 

I do like geocachers and I am even friendly sometimes...

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We had a cache placed on our land without permission, near to a pubic footpath but adjacent to a field due to have lambs in there (a family pet dog was shot two weeks later for running off lead amongst the sheep)

When I complained it was archived after a few days but in that short time it was active we had two occasions when cachers parked at the private entrance to our farm, leaving enough room to get a car through but the tractor wouldn't have fit through. I watched one couple try to take a short cut through the woods which are private and have no public right of way. Another (a man with a GPS so I assume he was caching) drove up to the top of the track, went off to find and then complained that they had been locked in - the shepherd had locked the gate behind him. We had to drive down to the gate to let them back out. The people who placed the cache (friends of friends so I recognised two of the group) were seen walking across three fields with no public access where there was a new born foal with a very anxious mother.

 

Nothing serious but very annoying that they see fit to just tramp where they want, and do what they want on our property. It makes me want to find out where they live, park on their drives and walk around their gardens, see how they like it.

 

The majority of cachers do care about their impact but that still leaves plenty who don't. A landowner deserves the choice of having a game played on their land or not.

 

I can quite imagine how annoying and worrying that this could have been. As I started the original post it was meant for the sensible locations that sit either along a roadside or a proper public footpath. If you get people wandering through private woods, fields with no public footpaths then they shouldn't be doing it in the first place. I've learn't that the first thing you have to do is find the cache on a map. If it is by a roadside then fine it should be quite easy. The moment you see that it is not near a road then you have to look at a proper map either streetmap or the grease monkey addin so that you can see where the footpaths run.

 

Yesterday I went to a cache alongside a golf course and my GPS was trying to point me to the other side of a stream in the golf course where I was already on the footpath. Looking I could not see any footpath signs on that side of the stream so ended up with a DNF. Looking for these is supposed to be fun and get us to places that we have never been to before because they have something to offer, not take us through all the areas we should not go because you follow the GPS pointing a certain way.

 

Perhaps you should have got the peoples logins who went to the cache and reported them through the site. Maybe the site needs something to deal with people who do the finding at all costs so that especially where they are a paid member they lose their membership as well as the site access.

 

Think there goes another can of worms.

 

Paul

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I'm probably going to be verbally chastised for this (nothing new there, then) but I like to seek out O.S. triangulation stations (trig points to use the common term). Some of them double as caches, most do not. Some are in publicly accessible locations and again, some are not. The fact that they are not beside a public right of way (prow) does not stop me from visiting them if it's at all possible. Having said that, I will not trample through growing crops to reach a pillar in the middle of a field but I will walk across a stubble field or open pasture to reach it. A pillar in a hedgerow that's not beside a path doesn't usually deter me.... I'll use a prow, if there is one, to get as close as I can, then walk along field boundaries until I reach the pillar. Some trigpointers will ask at the farm for permission but I have a very bad relationship with farm dogs... they hate me for some reason and whilst the don't particularly scare me, I avoid them if I can, so I rarely knock on a farmhouse door to seek permission much preferring to rely on full camo and using skyline, shape, shadow, silhouette and shine, to avoid being spotted on the way to the pillar (old habits die hard). On the few occasions I have met with the landowner or one of their employees, a few pleasantries passed and an explanation have usually sufficed. They are aware of the pillar's existence and also that some daft people like to visit then so it's nothing new to them. Some pillars are in enclosed areas, both military and civilian. They pose a different problem and each must be dealt with differently. Fortunately, there are not too many caches in that sort of location.

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Some of the best caches are in places they probably shouldn't be. They are usually out of the way and not much frequented, I can think of a few around here that involve at least a mild trespass.

 

I'm with Pharisee, as long as you keep your head down and use as much stealth as possible it shouldn't be a problem!

 

And it adds a bit of a thrill to a cache.

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I'm probably going to be verbally chastised for this (nothing new there, then) but I like to seek out O.S. triangulation stations (trig points to use the common term). Some of them double as caches, most do not. Some are in publicly accessible locations and again, some are not. The fact that they are not beside a public right of way (prow) does not stop me from visiting them if it's at all possible. Having said that, I will not trample through growing crops to reach a pillar in the middle of a field but I will walk across a stubble field or open pasture to reach it. A pillar in a hedgerow that's not beside a path doesn't usually deter me.... I'll use a prow, if there is one, to get as close as I can, then walk along field boundaries until I reach the pillar. Some trigpointers will ask at the farm for permission but I have a very bad relationship with farm dogs... they hate me for some reason and whilst the don't particularly scare me, I avoid them if I can, so I rarely knock on a farmhouse door to seek permission much preferring to rely on full camo and using skyline, shape, shadow, silhouette and shine, to avoid being spotted on the way to the pillar (old habits die hard). On the few occasions I have met with the landowner or one of their employees, a few pleasantries passed and an explanation have usually sufficed. They are aware of the pillar's existence and also that some daft people like to visit then so it's nothing new to them. Some pillars are in enclosed areas, both military and civilian. They pose a different problem and each must be dealt with differently. Fortunately, there are not too many caches in that sort of location.

 

I disagree. You are trespassing and should get permission to visit the trig point before venturing any significant distance off any PROW. At least with a trig point, as you quite rightly say, the landowner is aware of its existence and is probably aware of some peoples interest.

A cache (without specific permission) is a different matter and in my opinion should never be placed in this way. In my opinion this would quickly bring geocaching into disrepute.

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