Secret Caches

[Nicc from KS]

I'd like some opinions.

 

In my area there seem to be quite a few caches that only a very few people can find. Some are puzzles and some are traditional. I read the descriptions and hints(if there are any) and find no useful information to help me with the find. When I read the logs, everyone who has posted a find on a particular cache mentions that they finally found it after getting extra info from either the CO or someone else who got it from the CO. But the cache owner won't post that info on the cache page itself. This frustrates me to no end. Some of these COs want people to kiss their butt before they share the 'secret' info. Some of them expect you to show up at one of the event meetings to get it.

 

My opinion is, all the info I need should be on the cache page, or is publicly available(as for a puzzle) in order to find a cache. I shouldn't have to suck up to the local geo-clique in order to find a cache. I realize some caches are just really clever and I might not catch on right away. I don't have a problem emailing another cacher if I see several people have found the cache on their own. But, how much 'inner circle-good ol' boys-country club' BS should we tolerate in this hobby? If it seems the only way to find a cache is to kiss the CO butt, or pander to the local geo-clique, should that cache be archived?

 

Yes, I realize there are inner circles in every group/business. I try to avoid that type of high school behavior.

 

Comments?

[+Keelmann And Cici]

Why email anyone? If I can't find a cache, I post a DNF and move on. Some should be very challenging, that's part of what makes this fun.

[+the4dirtydogs]

Ignore button works great. Asking for help from a CO isnt kissing his butt, it's the respectful things to do. Sounds like you dont like the cachers in your area. Dont find their caches, that will show them.

[knowschad]

I think you are imagining these "cliques". Either that, or your area is very different from mine. I see that you have only attended one event, and that was almost a year ago. Try getting to a few more, so you can get to know a few of your fellow cachers, & maybe go caching with some of them. I suspect that once you do, any perceived "cliques" will vanish. What you are referring to as secret information sharing is simply friends talking to friends. You need to make friends before that can happen. I have found most geocachers (actually... not one single exception comes to mind!) to be an extremely open and welcoming bunch. Get to know them. Can't hurt!

[Nicc from KS]

So, is it acceptable to publish a cache, where the only way to find it is to show up at the next event to get the info the CO left out?

[+Ambrosia]

So, is it acceptable to publish a cache, where the only way to find it is to show up at the next event to get the info the CO left out?

If it is truly impossible to solve the puzzle without separate info from the cache owner, then no, that's not acceptable.

[+Ambrosia]

Here is what it says about Mystery/Puzzle caches in the Help Center:

 

Puzzle Caches The cache page provides a puzzle to be solved to generate coordinates for the cache. The information to proceed to solve the puzzle must be on the page.

 

The information needed to find the cache must be available to the general caching community. For example, a puzzle that requires research on public websites may be acceptable, while a puzzle that requires email to the cache owner with the solution to obtain the coordinates, or for other information necessary to the solution will not be .

Edited May 8, 2012 by Ambrosia

[+the4dirtydogs]

So, is it acceptable to publish a cache, where the only way to find it is to show up at the next event to get the info the CO left out?

Do you have the GC number for the cache in question? I would say NO. A friend of mine had a Chirp in his car and you had to find his car to get the combo for the lock. He was told by the reviewer that the chirp had to be stationary.

[+tozainamboku]

So, is it acceptable to publish a cache, where the only way to find it is to show up at the next event to get the info the CO left out?

The guidelines say "The information needed to solve a this type cache must be available to the general community and the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page."

 

If, in fact the cache cannot be solved without contacting the cache owner or someone who has found the cache, then it does not meet the guidelines.

 

However there is not a guideline saying that a puzzle cannot be difficult, requiring significant research or some creative thinking to solve. Just because some or all of the finders say they got some help is not proof that the puzzle can't be solved without help.

 

Each geocacher can decide for themselves what kind of help they are willing to get to solve a puzzle. Some will quickly ask for hints either from the cache owner or other cachers. Some will choose to work together with others to solve a difficult puzzles. And some are determined to solve the puzzle without any extra hints. On a difficult puzzle it may take awhile for someone to figure it out without help. Many puzzle owners intentionally will not give hints till the first finder just to avoid the impression that the puzzle cannot be solved without help.

[knowschad]

So, is it acceptable to publish a cache, where the only way to find it is to show up at the next event to get the info the CO left out?

 

If you are referring to what you thought I said... no. That is not at all what I said. What I said is that those are not cliques... those are friends.

 

I don't believe such caches as you speak of exist. Would you feel comfortable sharing a few examples?

[+Gustav129]

So, is it acceptable to publish a cache, where the only way to find it is to show up at the next event to get the info the CO left out?

Do you have the GC number for the cache in question? I would say NO. A friend of mine had a Chirp in his car and you had to find his car to get the combo for the lock. He was told by the reviewer that the chirp had to be stationary.

 

So technically this cache (GC1A6GH) which I just read about in the evil cache thread, shouldn't be allowed. To open the cache, you must have this travel bug (TB1F89H), so if it moves out of the area, nobody is opening the cache.

[+Mr.Benchmark]

Yes, I realize there are inner circles in every group/business. I try to avoid that type of high school behavior.

 

Well, why not just avoid it then? I would hope people wouldn't do that type of thing, but if they are, then just avoid the cachers hidden by people who do that. I could understand being sore if you put in a significant amount of work on what you thought was a puzzle cache, but it turns out the real skill you needed was either "prior knowledge", or possibly "mental telepathy."

 

However, the old saying "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" comes to mind. Are these simply unavoidable? I can appreciate frustration, but to some extent, if I had a puzzle I couldn't solve, and it turned out the solution was to know the CO, well, I would just put that on my ignore list, and be happy that I at least hadn't wasted even more time on a really bad puzzle.

 

I'm not saying you'd be wrong to be unhappy about this situation - just asking why, if you avoid high school behavior, you would let this bother you. If people want to be idiots so that they can pretend they are better than others (if that's really what is happening), then just feel sorry for them.

 

Another way of looking at this - why are you attempting caches that you aren't enjoying? I would definitely not enjoy doing a cache that I suspected involved an unsolvable puzzle. I hate to use the old line "if you don't like 'em don't hunt 'em" - because with a traditional cache you often don't know that a destination is NOT going to be to your liking until you are there. (Unless you have mental telepathy or clairvoyance or prior knowledge...) But in this case, if the puzzle isn't any fun, why worry about it - just move on to another cache, regardless of the idiocy you suspect on the part of some clique. (Again, I hate to judge - maybe that isn't even what's happening.)

 

Or is there some part of this that I'm not understanding?

[+CanadianRockies]

So technically this cache (GC1A6GH) which I just read about in the evil cache thread, shouldn't be allowed. To open the cache, you must have this travel bug (TB1F89H), so if it moves out of the area, nobody is opening the cache.

If the TB moves out of the area, then it becomes harder to open the cache but not impossible. Since the information to proceed to solve the puzzle is on the page, I'm not sure how this violates the Groundspeak guideline. Not every cache has to be an easy find.

[+hydnsek]

So technically this cache (GC1A6GH) which I just read about in the evil cache thread, shouldn't be allowed. To open the cache, you must have this travel bug (TB1F89H), so if it moves out of the area, nobody is opening the cache.

If the TB moves out of the area, then it becomes harder to open the cache but not impossible. Since the information to proceed to solve the puzzle is on the page, I'm not sure how this violates the Groundspeak guideline. Not every cache has to be an easy find.

I've encountered several caches like this over the years, where you had to track down a TB (or two or three) that had part of the required coord info. The details (and links to the needed TBs) were always listed on the cache page, so I don't think it qualifies as secret knowledge that you can only get from "friends."

[+redsox_mark]

I have no idea what the cachers are like in your area. But there are some things which I believe are true most everywhere:

 

1. There are caches which are very difficult to find. (Including puzzles which are very difficult to solve).

 

2. Some people will simply log a DNF, or in the case of a puzzle simply ignore it. But others will ask for help. They may email the owner, they may email another finder (there have been other threads on this), or they may phone or ask one of those people in person.

 

3. The topic about a difficult local cache often comes up in an event. Depending on the people involved (and possibly how much they have had to drink) hints may or may not be given.

 

So I think it is true that if you are someone who tends to ask for help; then having lots of caching friends can help find these difficult caches - as you have more people to ask. And there are some caches which are so difficult that in practice most everyone who has found it had some help. But just being very difficult is not against the guidelines.

[+ras_oscar]

I have been caching for a fairly long time and have never had a problem with a puzle cache. I just filter them out. If you REALLY have to have those puzzle caches, you will likely find the first one quite difficult. However, there are a few techniques that can yeild results. Consider the following:

 

1. The guidelines require the "Posted" coordinates in a puzzle cache to be within XXX miles of the actual coords. That means if the posted coords are N78 26.357 W 22 99.185, most likely the actual coords are N78 2X.XXX W 22 9Y.YYY. You already have a significant part of the answer. See if you can make the clues divide into 2 parts in this format.

 

2. While it's considered bad form to ask for puzzle help on the forums, it's not considered bad form to ask the CO. Try sending a polite question, and include a description of what you already have done. Many COs are more than willing to validate or correct the work you have already done and are more likely to be receptive to assisting someone that isn't asking for the final coords outright.

 

3. Be prepared to receive no reply or no help from the CO. I have asked for CO help on a grand total of 2 caches. Never received a reply and ultimately found it on my own. More rewarding IMHO. You will not find all caches in the world. Accept it.

 

4. Consider meeting with other cachers in your area with an interest in puzzles. Often the solution requires special skills or knowledge. A group is more likely to bring varied experiences than one person. Often 3 people can pool their knowledge and solve a problem that they could not solve individually. Also, solving puzzles is a great way to pass the time when the weather makes caching difficult.

 

5. Try doing a forum search on " puzzle" there are not many truly original methods of concealing the coordinates. Most methods have been tried and likely been used before, and likely has been discussed before as well.

 

Good luck.

[+Walts Hunting]

So, is it acceptable to publish a cache, where the only way to find it is to show up at the next event to get the info the CO left out?

Do you have the GC number for the cache in question? I would say NO. A friend of mine had a Chirp in his car and you had to find his car to get the combo for the lock. He was told by the reviewer that the chirp had to be stationary.

 

So technically this cache (GC1A6GH) which I just read about in the evil cache thread, shouldn't be allowed. To open the cache, you must have this travel bug (TB1F89H), so if it

If itmoves out of the area, nobody is opening the cache.

 

You are misinterpreting the guidelines. There are many caches that require finding a tb to get the entry info. I had one that required you to find three tbs with info on the final location. You are right about people (even though it was written the laminate attached to them to keep within a certain area) moving them out of the area, usually unknowingly. However there was a recent cacher who moved a local tb with the key over a hundred miles away and bragged about it.

[+OZ2CPU]

hello Nicc, I do share your fustrations many puzzle types are very hard to solve

and looks like impossible without inside info, or hint or a friend to call,

I see you found double the caches I got, but I found almost double puzzle than you,

I simply think you need to spend a bit more time on puzzles ?

to learn the tips and tricks of them ?

ok it is up-hill if you start with all the diff 4-5 alone,

no one is truely alone, you got to have some geocacher friends in your area

this game is alot more fun if you share your skils, it is ok to ask a bit,

I know I do :-)

offcourse I dont ask for a full solve, but mainly I ask if the methode or idea I got is right or wrong,

sometimes all I get is a NO and NO.. this is common if the puzzle is supposed to be very hard and is only to be found by true experts with no help at all, such caches exist, I only solved one of them, as FTF, and no one else was able to solve it after me..

but luckyly most normal puzzles are designed to be solved and found,

when I make a puzzle, I always add the answers to the hint section, as I send them to people asking !

it is only fair to all people if they all get the SAME help and info,

and I dont want to waste alot of time telling alot of people the same thing again and again.

as a CO I find it most fun when a cache is actually found, and when it give the finder a bit of fun too,

not waste his time (too long) behind a PC..

 

you should check out a few of my puzzles :-)

some are plain nasty offcourse as payback to some locals here who wasted alot of my time.

[+kunarion]

I try to avoid that type of high school behavior.

That's the best plan. Some cache puzzles are such low quality, they can't be solved without help from the CO, and you've already figured out which caches to avoid. Some people enjoy extracting cache info with PAFs or whatever. I don't, and if you don't, to each his own, that's fine. Are those Traditionals the "needle in a haystack" kind?

[Nicc from KS]

I'm not talking about a cache just being difficult to find or solve. I've contacted a CO on a few of his caches and either got no response or was told I need to post a DNF first and look harder. But, I read the logs on these caches and see others have gotten hints from the CO. I also encounter way too many caches with bad coordinates hidden on private property or inappropriate places. Neither the CO nor the finders mention on the cache page about the bad coords, private property, or the it might be an inappropriate location. This information gets passed around in the event meetings and groups but is not public knowledge. So, I feel certain caches are off limits to me because I choose not to go to the events or pal around with other cachers, and I refuse to kiss the COs butt.

 

I'm seeing too many lame cache hides. Bad containers, bad coordinates, inappropriate locations and most of the other cachers don't call attention to this because they are afraid they might offend someone who they will see at the next event. I call that a clique mentality. And it is diminishing the spirit of the hobby. I seemed to have offended a couple cachers a few months ago when I pointed out their coordinates were off by 50ft. GZ was on private land with several fallen trees and hundreds of possible hiding spots 20ft from the coordinates, but the cache was 50ft away. That's just a sloppy hide.

 

Apparently this doesn't seem to be a problem in other areas. I was curious if others have had to deal with individual COs or groups which seem to be exclusive. And do you post a 'need archived' noted when you encounter this.

 

Thanks for the comments.

[+JJnTJ]

It must be peculiar to your area.

 

Around here, there are some really hard puzzles that I can't solve, some really hard hides that I can't find, caches in trees I can't climb, and plenty of caches with "soft" coordinates that annoy me when (or if) I finally find them. But there are tens of thousands of other caches and I enjoy finding those, and since the game has so many players I think this diversity is inevitable.

 

You've hidden more than a few, so just continue to lead by example.

 

I wouldn't post a "needs archived" just because I couldn't find a cache or solve a puzzle. I might post one if I'm the latest to DNF a previously easy cache, especially if the CO just doesn't respond to Needs Maintenance logs or long strings of DNFs.

Edited May 8, 2012 by JJnTJ

[+kunarion]

I'm not talking about a cache just being difficult to find or solve. I've contacted a CO on a few of his caches and either got no response or was told I need to post a DNF first and look harder. But, I read the logs on these caches and see others have gotten hints from the CO.

A lack of email replies is likely due to email problems. There are many reasons you won't get a reply, merely due to Interweb glitches. Don't rely on PMs, place a note online in the appropriate place (nevermind, nobody's ever taken my advice on this).

 

And some local COs have noticed that I'm not good at finding caches. I log a DNF, they offer help. If I then find the cache, I log how the CO gave a lot of hints. I'm not in a clique. They just plain felt sorry for me, how I couldn't understand their poorly-made, typo-filled puzzle, and offered help on their own. Otherwise, I would have skipped that cache.

 

People rarely do thorough logs. So it's not strange to arrive at a cache and discover the coords are off or that it's on private property and it's never been mentioned before. Many cachers just go find & log the cache and leave. It may be a bad cache, but it's exacerbated by the other cachers. It's not just a CO issue nor a clique issue. There are plenty of issues to go around. Some COs make lots of low-quality caches. Seems like you're able to figure out which ones, so it's time to let those go. Is this really worth the grief to you?

 

was told I need to post a DNF first and look harder

That's how it should work. When you go caching and Did Not Find, log a DNF. And mention why, tactfully. Just the facts. If a log of “My GPS showed 50 feet SW of GZ”, makes the CO mad, maybe that's why there aren't any informative logs on the cache. If there's something noteworthy, make a note. I do a DNF or log note “lots of No Trespassing signs” or whatever, and leave it at that. If it's a lousy cache, don't go back, don't look harder, go find nice caches instead.

Edited May 9, 2012 by kunarion

[+NYPaddleCacher]

It must be peculiar to your area.

 

I'm not so sure about that. We don't have a lot of events in my area, but for several of the past events it's actually been mentioned on the event page that one of the activities will be "Puzzle hint sharing". Quite often there will be numerous new caches placed in coordination with the event and typically groups of cachers attending the event will go out in search of those caches before or just after the event. It's not that these puzzle caches can't be solved or difficult caches can't be found without attending the event. It's that the sharing of hints and group searching on caches make these finds a *lot* easier if one has attended the event. Even if someone wants to attend an event sometimes real live gets in the way. As a result, those that for one reason or another can't or does not desire to attend an event might have to work a *lot* harder to find some caches than someone that attended the event, watched someone else solve a puzzle, then came along with a group and watched someone climb up a tree to retrieve the container so that they could get their name in the log.

 

I just can't see why, if a cache is rated with a specific difficulty (i.e. a 4D puzzle, or a 4T tree climbing cache), that the effort required to find a cache should be contingent upon whether or not one is able to attend a specific event.

[+chaosmanor]

OK, you have multiple issues here...

I'm not talking about a cache just being difficult to find or solve. I've contacted a CO on a few of his caches and either got no response or was told I need to post a DNF first and look harder. But, I read the logs on these caches and see others have gotten hints from the CO.

 

Something about this does not scan, and you *may* have a legitimate complaint. Posting a DNF means that one cannot Find the cache, not that one cannot solve the puzzle. If you are politely asking for a hint, and are told to post a DNF first, then the CO is not playing fair, especially if others have gotten a little help. If the issue is with one particular CO, then you might just have to ignore his/her caches. Every aspect of Life has a jerk or three in it, and the best way to deal with them is ignore them.

 

I also encounter way too many caches with bad coordinates hidden on private property or inappropriate places.

 

If you are absolutely certain that a cache is on PP, or has really bad coords (more than 30 feet off; less than that is, IMHO, good enough for geocaching purposes), this is reportable. Write directly to a local Admin/Approver for help. Don't whine. Be polite. Don't whine. Expect it to be several days before you get a response. Don't whine. If the Admin doesn't agree with your position, accept it. Don't whine.

 

Neither the CO nor the finders mention on the cache page about the bad coords, private property, or the it might be an inappropriate location. This information gets passed around in the event meetings and groups but is not public knowledge. So, I feel certain caches are off limits to me because I choose not to go to the events or pal around with other cachers, and I refuse to kiss the COs butt.

 

I am going to be blunt. I see two problems here. You have a bit of a persecution complex. And I am really not able to understand exactly what you are trying to describe. If a cache has bad coords, or is on PP, why would this information be passed around at an event? Are you trying to say that the correct information is passed around at an event? And if you never go to events, how can you know any of this? I'm not being a smart-a@@ here; I really cannot see your point. It looks to me as if you are making accusations without any evidence at all. And as for cache logs not mentioning problems, let me be blunt again: 90% of the people in this world don't look much beyond their noses, and cachers (as a group!!) are not much more observant. Most of them follow the arrow, don't look around at the scenery, and then go haring off after the next cache. That's just how it is

 

I'm seeing too many lame cache hides. Bad containers, bad coordinates, inappropriate locations and most of the other cachers don't call attention to this because they are afraid they might offend someone who they will see at the next event. I call that a clique mentality.

 

No, that is not "clique mentality". A clique is a group of people who band together for whatever reason, and keep out others who they think are beneath the clique. Being afraid to upset someone, or sucking up to someone, is toadyism. As for lame hides, they are ubiquitous, and you can't do anything about them. Let that go. Bad coords and bad locations can be dealt with; ask an Admin for help with this. You *can* get a cache turned off if it is truly bad. But you better be able to prove it.

 

And it is diminishing the spirit of the hobby.

 

Only from your PoV. We've been doing this for more than a decade, back when LPCs did not exist, and no one had heard the term "urban micro". All caches were on trails, in parks, etc. The game has changed a LOT in our eleven active years of caching. I don't really "like" LPCs, but I still hunt them, now and then. I think that they have cheapened the game, but I'm not slavish about it.

 

I seemed to have offended a couple cachers a few months ago when I pointed out their coordinates were off by 50ft. GZ was on private land with several fallen trees and hundreds of possible hiding spots 20ft from the coordinates, but the cache was 50ft away. That's just a sloppy hide.

 

Total agreement with you on this. It happens, a lot. But a lot of times, that's the best that our hi-tech toys can do: lots of trees, narrow canyons, many tall buildings all make for lots of signal bounce. Post the information on the cache page, in a Needs Maintenance post. When you find it, post the correct coords, or a "it was 40 feet to the SW of GZ", or something, as an advisory to others. And then forget about it. If someone gets huffy with you, tell them that you were just posting what you saw when you were there, which is SOP. There is no argument that some people refuse to believe that they can make a mistake. Don't know if it helps, but every area has at least one of those; we have a couple of them around here. Their caches get ignored after a while, and most of them eventually lose interest.

 

Apparently this doesn't seem to be a problem in other areas. I was curious if others have had to deal with individual COs or groups which seem to be exclusive.

 

Not around here, and when we find such groups, we hound them out of existence Just kidding!! In a way, the entire local group *is* a clique, I suppose, but we are very welcoming of new people, and we try to help them with their hides, because it makes it more fun for all of us. There are actually two such groups, but the membership of each is almost a mirror of the other. We're kinda weird that way

 

And do you post a 'need archived' noted when you encounter this.

 

This is the last resort, to be used only in a few instances...

 

...A cache has been thoroughly trashed, and the CO does not respond to two or more NM requests.

 

...A CO has been inactive for a year or more, and a cache has an obvious problem: several DNFs in a row, for example.

 

...A cache can be seen, or even Found, but it definitely is on National Park Service land, private land (with or without signs), well off a trail, in an area where the rules require one to stay on the trails (most such rule sets allow one to go ten feet or so off a trail for "necessary" reasons), or something similar. In this case, you had better be 110% certain of your reasons.

 

...A cache is in a sensitive area, and a stream of people looking for it will cause serious damage. Places of high erosion, a cache at an old ruin: things of this sort are what I mean here.

 

Bottom line, though, is that, "You cannot Find them all". Yeah, it's frustrating to put in time on a search, and come up empty because of problems. Like that sort of thing doesn't happen in The Real World! The cache should be a bonus; any hike is a good one, as far as I am concerned, so if I don't Find a cache or two, that's OK, if I got to see some nice scenery, maybe took some photos, etc. Focus on the positive aspects of the hunt; the negatives won't feel so negative.

 

Hope this helps you.

[+JJnTJ]

If two dozen people get a hint on a puzzle and find it thanks to some cliquey connections, it's not like they're showing the world how smart they are. If the puzzle is actually unsolvable without some goofy connection to a childish clique, it's a bad puzzle and not worth ten seconds' thought.

 

Nothing happening in this sport today will matter to anyone in 20 years. You can't change other people's behavior with emails or cache logs, so find a way to enjoy it for what it is.

[+CanadianRockies]

I just can't see why, if a cache is rated with a specific difficulty (i.e. a 4D puzzle, or a 4T tree climbing cache), that the effort required to find a cache should be contingent upon whether or not one is able to attend a specific event.

I understand your unease with the situation, but difficulty and terrain ratings never can be accurate for all geocachers. They always have been imperfect guides.

 

For difficult hides, some people will obtain hints from events. Others will phone or email a friend. Even without hints, finds usually are easier when a pair (or a crowd) of geocachers search together.

 

A 3-star terrain hide might not be all that hard for a typical 20-year-old but almost impossible for someone in a wheelchair or an elderly person with limited mobility. Also, some trees can be easier to climb if you have a companion along to give you a boost.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

Some cache puzzles are such low quality, they can't be solved without help from the CO..

 

Yep...hate those. And they go immediately onto the ignore list.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

 

A 3-star terrain hide might not be all that hard for a typical 20-year-old but almost impossible for someone in a wheelchair or an elderly person with limited mobility. Also, some trees can be easier to climb if you have a companion along to give you a boost.

 

Exactly.

 

As an example, last year there was an event that had several caches placed with coincided with the event. One of them was a tree climbing cache in a small neighborhood park (surrounded on four sides with houses, a couple with a clear view of the tree). The CO, who appears to be in his 20's) claims that he was able to place the cache by climbing the tree by himself. On the day of the event, the cache had 13 or so found it logs. Almost all of them mentioned finding the cache as part of a group and several of them claimed "co-FTF". I went to check it out about a week later and tried a few time before I determined that I was likely physically incapable of getting to the lowest branch, and because I almost cache alone (and didn't attend the event) would likely require bringing a ladder to get up into the branches. From reading the logs on the six other finds it appears that only person was able to retrieve the container without any other assistance (and he appears to be in his early 20's as well). Coincidentally, the same CO create another harder (this one rated a 4.5T) tree climbing cache coordinated with another event in another public park , and only 1 of the 7 finders appears to have found it alone (and their profile indicates that he is a student). Four of the other logs were from the same group which had a young kid do the climbing to retrieve the cache.

 

For both of those, almost all of the found it logs were the result of someone else climbing the tree, and the 4 and 4.5 rating was probably pretty accurate if one *did* climb the tree. Essentially, attending an event turned a 4/4.5T cache into a 1T effort, while most everyone else that wants to find it will probably require special equipment (a T5 effort), and the hope that the neighbors don't call the cops when they see someone on a ladder to get into a tree in "their" park.

[+bflentje]

I think you are imagining these "cliques". Either that, or your area is very different from mine. I see that you have only attended one event, and that was almost a year ago. Try getting to a few more, so you can get to know a few of your fellow cachers, & maybe go caching with some of them. I suspect that once you do, any perceived "cliques" will vanish. What you are referring to as secret information sharing is simply friends talking to friends. You need to make friends before that can happen. I have found most geocachers (actually... not one single exception comes to mind!) to be an extremely open and welcoming bunch. Get to know them. Can't hurt!

 

Uh.. there ARE cliques in our area. Though I don't think any one of them are hard to break into and I certainly would not call our cliques out as snobs. The opposite. But cliques do exist here, that I assure you. And I am not a disgruntled anti-clique dude either.. I believe in the right to association.

 

clique (klk, klk)

n.

A small exclusive group of friends or associates.

intr.v. cliqued, cliqu·ing, cliques Informal

To form, associate in, or act as a clique.

 

Though, the French definition suggests the necessity to exclude outsiders.. so maybe you're right, by THAT definition, we don't have them.

[knowschad]

I think you are imagining these "cliques". Either that, or your area is very different from mine. I see that you have only attended one event, and that was almost a year ago. Try getting to a few more, so you can get to know a few of your fellow cachers, & maybe go caching with some of them. I suspect that once you do, any perceived "cliques" will vanish. What you are referring to as secret information sharing is simply friends talking to friends. You need to make friends before that can happen. I have found most geocachers (actually... not one single exception comes to mind!) to be an extremely open and welcoming bunch. Get to know them. Can't hurt!

 

Uh.. there ARE cliques in our area. Though I don't think any one of them are hard to break into and I certainly would not call our cliques out as snobs. The opposite. But cliques do exist here, that I assure you. And I am not a disgruntled anti-clique dude either.. I believe in the right to association.

 

clique (klk, klk)

n.

A small exclusive group of friends or associates.

intr.v. cliqued, cliqu·ing, cliques Informal

To form, associate in, or act as a clique.

 

Though, the French definition suggests the necessity to exclude outsiders.. so maybe you're right, by THAT definition, we don't have them.

 

In my seven years of caching here, I have never once felt excluded from any group of cachers. Ever.

[+Ecylram]

This thread is another reminder to me of how varied this game/sport/activity can be. Each post so far reflects a different view of the geocaching community as seen by the writer.

 

Cliques - Yes, there are cliques. They may not exist in all areas, but they most certainly exist - groups of individuals who see geocaching in a similar way. Some are 'harmless' and some look like a scene out of 'Heathers'. There ARE childish and sophomoric groups of cachers out there. If you don't have that in your area, I hope it stays that way as it can be very destructive to a community.

 

"Secret Caches" - Yes, they exist. I know of one that was published a few months ago that is really a pocket cache. The CO carries it with him and allows certain cachers to sign the log as long as they are oblique about how they "made the find". I also know of a cacher who will place a "mystery" cache that is unsolvable. Their friends get the final coordinates and once they've all had a chance then the CO will post a "correction" in the cache description. And, yes, I have it from the horse's mouth that it is done intentionally. Those who know about this will wait on finding those caches until the CO posts their (inevitable) "correction".

 

My advice to the OP and those who come across this is to simply ignore it. Everybody caches differently and if you get caught up in what "others" are doing you're going to lose the joy of geocaching. If the Mystery cache really is a "secret cache" or "pocket cache" just ignore it and move on to something else. It isn't worth getting stressed over.

[+Don_J]

One of my favorite local caches is real difficult. 95 finds 18 DNFs. Reading the logs, 26 of the finds admit getting a hint from the cache owner or another cacher, and a lot of people found it after a nearby event, so who knows how many actually found it on their own that day.

 

My second time by I had resigned myself to either giving up or asking for a hint as I simply couldn't think of anywhere else to look. Then I saw what I needed to see. The thing is, while a lot of people used their network of caching friends to find the cache, it was not necessary to do so. There was nothing "secret" about the cache except for how it was hidden.

 

I have no problem asking for a nudge if I have truly given up. I don't do it just for the smiley or to clear the map My interest is mostly on how I was tricked and to gain new idea for future hides.

 

There are some cachers in our community that simply will not give up and post a DNF. They will call several cachers from GZ until one tells them how to find the cache, and they make no bones about it in their logs. I don't necessarily approve of this but it really doesn't effect me, so, to each his own. I have only called a CO three times from the field and that was because I was concerned that there was a problem that might need to be corrected quickly. I do network at events and file away subtle hints for caches that I could not find.

 

I notice that the CO has been doing this for awhile, has many finds and quite a few hides. I'm wondering if there was some sort of falling out with the local cache community?

 

I don't see a number of people who share an interest, getting together to discuss/participate in that interest as "high school behavior". I see it as human behavior. When I see a group of people having fun, I don't see them as a clique' that is excluding me. I see them as something that I want to be a part of.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Don_J

[+NYPaddleCacher]

 

I don't see a number of people who share an interest, getting together to discuss/participate in that interest as "high school behavior". I see it as human behavior. When I see a group of people having fun, I don't see them as a clique' that is excluding me. I see them as something that I want to be a part of.

 

I agree, and as others have said I have yet to see events which in any way attempted to be exclusionary. However, if a group of local cachers decided to start having a weekly event every Tuesday, from 7-8PM I wouldn't attend the weekly events simply because I already have a commitment every Tuesday from 7-8PM. Sometime real life gets in the way of geocaching. One would hope that those that *can* attend that weekly event would not assume that because some local cacher never attends that they are anti-social or, for some reason does not want to be part of the local cliq^H^H^H^Hcommunity.

[+OZ2CPU]

about tree climbing,

I am far from 20 anymore, but I LOVE hard to get tree climbing caches,

I just use equipment to make it easy and safe for me,

I am sure you can do the same, there are no rules against equipment.

 

It is a bit the same with puzzle things, ignore those you dont like or understand,

come on, no one can solve them all, far from it.

some I spend a few minutes on, others several hrs others several days, before I solve or give up.

[+fizzymagic]

I am a big puzzle cache fan. I especially like to find puzzle caches in new places when I go. I often encounter puzzles that require detailed knowledge about local cachers to solve; I just ignore those and move on to others that I can solve.

 

Do they annoy me? A little. But not enough to cause me any angst. The only problem that can occur is when a group starts placing a lot of puzzles that require this knowledge in an attempt to one-up each other, so that there are a lot of those puzzles in an area.

 

Puzzles that require contacting the CO to get the solution don't bug me too much; I can figure those out from the logs and I am happy to write the CO and ask for help. I don't consider that groveling or anything.

 

About the only puzzle type of this general type that I actually do find annoying are what I call "narcissist" puzzles: those that require you to go through the CO's finds in excruciating detail to solve. We have a local puzzle hider here who seems to be quite in love with himself; he has placed 3 or 4 of this kind of puzzle cache. I ignore them.

[+bladesedge]

In a city about 180kms from me dwell 1 or 2 evil COs who put out excellently hard puzzle caches.

 

For example: http://coord.info/GC1DG73

 

Now people may assume theres absolutely nothing there to help you find the cache. Its most certainly not out in the middle of the harbour. People do seek help from the CO. But the cache coordinates are DEFINITELY on the cache page. They're just camoflagued and until you get the right mindset they're not visible to you.

 

If you have a look at the map of Dunedin, New Zealand (where this cache is) you almost can't walk 160m without tripping over a puzzle cache. I love it! Fills in my nights solving all these caches and am planning a big weekend up there to knock off as many as I can. I wonder what the record is for the most puzzle cache finds in a day?

[+NYPaddleCacher]

about tree climbing,

I am far from 20 anymore, but I LOVE hard to get tree climbing caches,

I just use equipment to make it easy and safe for me,

I am sure you can do the same, there are no rules against equipment.

 

I don't have any qualms about using special equipment, and eventually I probably will throw a ladder on my vehicle and go out early on a Sunday morning when someone bringing a ladder to a small neighborhood park is less likely going to be noticed as suspicious behavior by the nearby residents. Using special equipment effectively makes it a 5 star terrain cache. Attending the event and waiting at the bottom of a tree while someone else climbs the tree effectively makes it a 1/1 cache. I don't think the relative difficulty of finding a cache should be contingent upon attending an event *especially* when the cache listing specifically mentions "puzzle solving hints" as an incentive for attending the event.

 

 

It is a bit the same with puzzle things, ignore those you dont like or understand,

come on, no one can solve them all, far from it.

some I spend a few minutes on, others several hrs others several days, before I solve or give up.

 

I've looked at enough 5 star difficulty puzzle caches to know that *I* can't solve them all. However, I've also solved a few 5 star puzzle caches on my own, including one that took me well over a month to solve and I still get an occasional "I see that you solved GCNNNNN, can you give me a hint" four years after I posted a "I solve it" note.

 

To me, events are about socializing with other geocachers, and I realized that during the course of meeting other geocachers you're going to get "I still haven't found your Evil Cache #43 cache...that one has me baffled...do you mind

giving me a hint?" That's different from announcing a event and including a formal "sharing puzzle hints" activity which effectively determines the difficulty in solving and finding a cache contingent upon whether or one one is able to attend the event.

 

This whole thread may just be another case of we're only hearing one side of the story, but it me the more general issue is whether or not geocaching should be made more or less difficult depending on how closely one is engaged with the local community.

[knowschad]

I choose not to go to the events or pal around with other cachers, and I refuse to kiss the COs butt.

I'm curious why you feel that way about events or "paling around" with other cachers. Care to explain?

[Nicc from KS]

I don't like large groups of people and prefer to cache by myself. I bump into other cachers out on the trail and we'll talk a bit and maybe track down a few together. I don't mind that at all. I called some of these cliques exclusive, but that's not the right word. If I wanted to join some of them or attend the events I could. And again, I'm not whining about a cache or puzzle being difficult to find. If I see others have solved or found a cache on their own, I'll either look harder or ignore it.

 

Here's a more specific example. (GC266CK) I recently posted a needs archived log on this one. The puzzle is great. Easy to solve. The coordinates take you to a cluster of electrical boxes and A/C units on the side of a school in between the building and a loading dock. You can see this from Google Earth street view. 20 people logged a find on this. Most stated they got additional hints from someone else. And several commented about what a clever hide is was. Here's the problem. There's no info about the container. So, you're expected to crawl around some electrical boxes on school property. No one had a problem with this being on school property(which is prohibited). No one has a problem with this being hidden on or around a cluster of electrical boxes(which is kind of stupid with all the copper thefts we've had the last few years.)

 

I feel that because many of these finders cache together, see each other at events, and get help from each other, this makes them oblivious to some of the problem caches in the area. While the cliques might not be well defined, group think leads some of these cachers to think that this is not only an acceptable hide, but a really good hide. I consider the hide itself to be a bad hide and should have been archived or moved a long time ago.

 

Back to my original post. (A little more specific)

1. Do others encounter bad or inappropriate hides which a group/clique of people have found to be good/acceptable with no issues raised.

 

2. Do you post critical comments or 'needs archived' when you find a bad puzzle/hide that others think is great.

 

If someone has issues with any of my caches, I want to hear about them. I'll correct my mistakes or move the cache.

[+zack_black]

This boils down to "Other cachers don't play the game the way I LIKE to so GS.com should force them to do it MY WAY".

 

There are as many ways to enjoy our hobby as there are geocachers. If you don't like a cache then that's what the "ignore" button is for.

[+firestronaut]

This boils down to "Other cachers don't play the game the way I LIKE to so GS.com should force them to do it MY WAY".

 

+1

[+SwineFlew]

I don't like large groups of people and prefer to cache by myself. I bump into other cachers out on the trail and we'll talk a bit and maybe track down a few together. I don't mind that at all. I called some of these cliques exclusive, but that's not the right word. If I wanted to join some of them or attend the events I could. And again, I'm not whining about a cache or puzzle being difficult to find. If I see others have solved or found a cache on their own, I'll either look harder or ignore it.

 

Here's a more specific example. (GC266CK) I recently posted a needs archived log on this one. The puzzle is great. Easy to solve. The coordinates take you to a cluster of electrical boxes and A/C units on the side of a school in between the building and a loading dock. You can see this from Google Earth street view. 20 people logged a find on this. Most stated they got additional hints from someone else. And several commented about what a clever hide is was. Here's the problem. There's no info about the container. So, you're expected to crawl around some electrical boxes on school property. No one had a problem with this being on school property(which is prohibited). No one has a problem with this being hidden on or around a cluster of electrical boxes(which is kind of stupid with all the copper thefts we've had the last few years.)

 

I feel that because many of these finders cache together, see each other at events, and get help from each other, this makes them oblivious to some of the problem caches in the area. While the cliques might not be well defined, group think leads some of these cachers to think that this is not only an acceptable hide, but a really good hide. I consider the hide itself to be a bad hide and should have been archived or moved a long time ago.

 

Back to my original post. (A little more specific)

1. Do others encounter bad or inappropriate hides which a group/clique of people have found to be good/acceptable with no issues raised.

 

2. Do you post critical comments or 'needs archived' when you find a bad puzzle/hide that others think is great.

 

If someone has issues with any of my caches, I want to hear about them. I'll correct my mistakes or move the cache.

No I havent but yes, there are bad puzzles out there.

 

How can we KNOW if its a bad puzzle if we dont post critical comments on the puzzle cache page? People are going to log the cache anyway even its a bad puzzle.

 

I feel critical comments are necessary when it comes to puzzle caches. I had see really good puzzle but the cache itself is another story.

 

Yea, we do need a rating system for puzzle itself and not on the cache.

[Nicc from KS]

This boils down to "Other cachers don't play the game the way I LIKE to so GS.com should force them to do it MY WAY".

 

So, there should be no rules or guidelines? I'm all for extreme caches, tunnels, trees, cliffs etc. But, should nothing be off limits? What if I glue a matchstick container inside a pair of old shoes, tie them together and throw them over a live power line? Is that OK? If I mark a cache as 'kid friendly' and hide it on a corner where hookers hang out, would that be OK? The reason I started this thread is because I see a lot of bad cache hides which are dragging the hobby down. I wanted to know if anyone else sees this and what they do about it. I guess the answer is, no one cares.

[+niraD]

1. Do others encounter bad or inappropriate hides which a group/clique of people have found to be good/acceptable with no issues raised.

 

2. Do you post critical comments or 'needs archived' when you find a bad puzzle/hide that others think is great.

It's deja vu all over again...

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=289368

[+niraD]

So, there should be no rules or guidelines? I'm all for extreme caches, tunnels, trees, cliffs etc. But, should nothing be off limits? What if I glue a matchstick container inside a pair of old shoes, tie them together and throw them over a live power line? Is that OK? If I mark a cache as 'kid friendly' and hide it on a corner where hookers hang out, would that be OK? The reason I started this thread is because I see a lot of bad cache hides which are dragging the hobby down. I wanted to know if anyone else sees this and what they do about it. I guess the answer is, no one cares.

Your original post complained about caches that were difficult/impossible to find unless you were in the CO's circle of friends and thus had access to necessary hints/spoilers.

 

Now you're raising a completely different topic.

[+tozainamboku]

Back to my original post. (A little more specific)

1. Do others encounter bad or inappropriate hides which a group/clique of people have found to be good/acceptable with no issues raised.

If you mean do others post comments about how clever a hide was or how much the enjoyed it, where I felt it was pretty ordinary or perhaps not in a location I would have chosen, then the answer is yes. Often I think the praise is coming from the CO's friends who realize that this really isn't such a great cache but they just want to praise a friend. But then I may realize that cache owner and friends just enjoy a different type of cache than I do.

2. Do you post critical comments or 'needs archived' when you find a bad puzzle/hide that others think is great.

 

If someone has issues with any of my caches, I want to hear about them. I'll correct my mistakes or move the cache.

If a cache is truly in violation of the guidelines I may make mention and post a needs archive. Sometimes, to avoid conflict, I'll contact the reviewer privately. I also don't have a problem reporting that this cache might not be my favorite type or of letting the cache owner know of some problem they might be unaware of. That's different then telling someone that their cache is lame or in s terrible location.

 

Cache owners, even those who place the types you might think are the lamest, take a great deal of pride in their hides. I always assume that people hide the kinds of cache they like to find. So I take care to criticize a cache simply because I didn't like it. But I can mention the homeless encampment nearby or that fact I felt uncomfortable searching in front of the office building.

 

I don't know what you posted on the example you gave. But based on your what you have posted here, I wouldn't doubt that you may have let the CO that you thought the cache was lame or were critical of his decision in choosing that location. The natural response from the cache owner (and his friends) may be that you were rude and/or condescending. If they seem angry with you, perhaps it was something you said.

 

This boils down to "Other cachers don't play the game the way I LIKE to so GS.com should force them to do it MY WAY".

 

So, there should be no rules or guidelines? I'm all for extreme caches, tunnels, trees, cliffs etc. But, should nothing be off limits? What if I glue a matchstick container inside a pair of old shoes, tie them together and throw them over a live power line? Is that OK? If I mark a cache as 'kid friendly' and hide it on a corner where hookers hang out, would that be OK? The reason I started this thread is because I see a lot of bad cache hides which are dragging the hobby down. I wanted to know if anyone else sees this and what they do about it. I guess the answer is, no one cares.

I suggest you read the guidelines so you know what is off limits or not. There are no rules about safety. Obviously a cache hanging from powerlines would have permission issue. The power company doesn't want people messing with their lines. It's hard to imagine a cache where there are hookers 24/7 and if someone is using Kid Friendly on such a cache because they think it's funny, you might take that up with a reviewer or Groundspeak - that's likely to in violation of one or more of the Terms of Use for the website. However, there have been caches places outside of legal brothels in Nevada, so hookers per se are probably not against the guidelines.

 

You should stick to fizzymagic's example of caches in places that homeless use as toilets. My general comment is that this may be something the cache owner was unaware of when the cache was placed, and while it's a good reason to archive the cache, I'd generally just let the CO know the situation and hope they do the right thing. However, fizzy says he knows of cache owners who not only wouldn't archive the cache, but said that if he didn't want to search someone's toilet, then he should just ignore the cache.

Edited May 9, 2012 by tozainamboku

[+zack_black]

So, there should be no rules or guidelines? I'm all for extreme caches, tunnels, trees, cliffs etc. But, should nothing be off limits? What if I glue a matchstick container inside a pair of old shoes, tie them together and throw them over a live power line? Is that OK? If I mark a cache as 'kid friendly' and hide it on a corner where hookers hang out, would that be OK? The reason I started this thread is because I see a lot of bad cache hides which are dragging the hobby down. I wanted to know if anyone else sees this and what they do about it. I guess the answer is, no one cares.

Your original post complained about caches that were difficult/impossible to find unless you were in the CO's circle of friends and thus had access to necessary hints/spoilers.

 

Now you're raising a completely different topic.

 

This /\

 

1. Do others encounter bad or inappropriate hides which a group/clique of people have found to be good/acceptable with no issues raised.

 

2. Do you post critical comments or 'needs archived' when you find a bad puzzle/hide that others think is great.

It's deja vu all over again...

http://forums.Ground...howtopic=289368

 

And this /\

Edited May 9, 2012 by zack_black

[+Don_J]

This boils down to "Other cachers don't play the game the way I LIKE to so GS.com should force them to do it MY WAY".

 

So, there should be no rules or guidelines? I'm all for extreme caches, tunnels, trees, cliffs etc. But, should nothing be off limits? What if I glue a matchstick container inside a pair of old shoes, tie them together and throw them over a live power line? Is that OK? If I mark a cache as 'kid friendly' and hide it on a corner where hookers hang out, would that be OK? The reason I started this thread is because I see a lot of bad cache hides which are dragging the hobby down. I wanted to know if anyone else sees this and what they do about it. I guess the answer is, no one cares.

 

I think that for most people, it's easier to just turn their head and ignore these situations than it is to get involved and suffer the wrath of certain cache owners, or worse, their buddies. I think with your last message, I understand your issue a little better.

 

First off, not everything has to be done in public, on the website. My personal approach to things depends a lot on the players and the severity of the issue. I have no problem reporting private property or school issues, and I will do it on the website if I think other cachers need to be aware of the issue. Other times, I'll try to leave subtle criticism to try to steer the CO in the right direction. More than once I have posted a DNF that said, "Sorry, I'm not walking through that beautiful landscaping, just to get a smiley". Lastly, the option of a private email to one of our reviewers is always available.

 

Unfortunately, we do have a number of local cachers that will log, "great cache", etc., on every cache they find. I'll come by later and find myself in full view of parents dropping off their first graders, or behind a market with my boots sticking to the pavement because of the slop that has leaked out of the dumpsters. After time, you learn who the bad hiders are and you also learn who are the ones that will find and log a cache regardless of its conditions.

[GOF and Bacall]

This boils down to "Other cachers don't play the game the way I LIKE to so GS.com should force them to do it MY WAY".

 

So, there should be no rules or guidelines? I'm all for extreme caches, tunnels, trees, cliffs etc. But, should nothing be off limits? What if I glue a matchstick container inside a pair of old shoes, tie them together and throw them over a live power line? Is that OK? If I mark a cache as 'kid friendly' and hide it on a corner where hookers hang out, would that be OK? The reason I started this thread is because I see a lot of bad cache hides which are dragging the hobby down. I wanted to know if anyone else sees this and what they do about it. I guess the answer is, no one cares.

Don't be silly. The power company would never give you permission to place such a hide and hookers have families to.

[+fizzymagic]

However, fizzy says he knows of cache owners who not only wouldn't archive the cache, but said that if he didn't want to search someone's toilet, then he should just ignore the cache.

 

Just to be clear, I know of a CO that wouldn't archive such a cache. Luckily, I have not met multiple instances of that behavior!

 

:rolleyes: