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geocahing destroyed by dayflies


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This boils down to "Other cachers don't play the game the way I LIKE to so GS.com should force them to do it MY WAY".

 

There are as many ways to enjoy our hobby as there are geocachers. If a billion new "geotrash" caches suddenly appeared in my area I wouldn't fret - that's what the "ignore" button (and NA button)is for.

 

If I had been restricted any more than I was as a new "basic" member I probably would have never become a premium member.

 

Less Premium members = less cash for GS.com

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Just because you're premium, doesn't mean you're better.

If you've paid, you're more likely to keep at it and do a better job, to justify the expense.

 

I had a look through my cache finds going back to March 2011.

I looked at the caches I've found in that time period that have been archived.

  • 50 archived caches
  • 16 of the archived caches were archived by a Reviewer (not by the cache owner)
  • 62% 10/16 caches were owned by Regular Members
  • 38% 6/16 caches were owned by Premium Members

It appears that statistically PMs are more conscientious about cache ownership then RMs.

Edited by L0ne R
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One thing I try to do -- If a name I don't recognize logs one of my caches, or one on my watchlist, I get a notification and I will go check out their profile.

 

If they are a new player and probably live in my area (I figure first few finds are usually close to home), I send them a nice e-mail, welcome them to the game, offer to help if they get stuck, and offer to go out caching with them sometime.

This helps to establish a friendship, gives them some confidence and a possible contact / mentor, and opens the way to additional conversations about good hides, methods, events, travel bugs, etc.

 

Interesting, but I think there'd be way too many of them lately for me to do that! Let me ask you this in the smartphone era. How many of them respond? When I do contact brand new people, it's almost always "you logged my cache 5 times on your phone, so I deleted 4 of them". I have never once received a response back.

 

I'd also have reservations about contacting the new person too because statistically, I don't think the majority of them are going to be around too long. You know, find a handful, or even several dozen caches, and disappear forever. If I were ever to do this, I would wait until I consistently see the same new name 4 or 5 times.

 

Some have, some haven't. I don't know the statistic. But I have made a few friends this way.

 

I think some of the 'dayflies' may get too frustrated with the first finds/learning curve, and sometimes that is why they give up quickly. Those are the ones I might help with this method. Some may not want friendship and help, and that's okay too. I don't take it as a negative if they don't respond, but I enjoy their friendship if they want to.

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I had a look through my caches going back to March 2011.

I looked at the caches I've found in that time period that have been archived.

  • 50 archived caches
  • 16 of the archived caches were archived by a Reviewer (not by the cache owner)
  • 62% 10/16 caches were owned by Regular Members
  • 38% 6/16 caches were owned by Premium Members

It appears that statistically PMs are more conscientious about cache ownership then RMs.

You're looking at the wrong numbers to draw your conclusion. How many of the 50 archived caches were owned by basic and premium members?

 

Suppose, for a very unlikely example, that basic members owned 44 of the 50 caches. Then reviewers only stepped in 36 percent (16/44) of the time. On the other hand, reviewers had to archive abandoned premium member caches 100 percent (6/6) of the time.

 

Even this analysis, however, doesn't take into account adopted caches and other factors.

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I think some of the 'dayflies' may get too frustrated with the first finds/learning curve, and sometimes that is why they give up quickly.

Exactly! Some want to be spoon-fed. Do not emable them.

 

I'll give them a spoon and teach them to use it :)

But I wont be there to feed them forever.

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Those pesky dayflies are also responsible for taking out 50% of the "c" in geocahing. I much prefer the old days, where all the caches were ammo cans and there was a superabundance of "c's."

 

Well you know, I was just telling Snoogans last week that there are old school reviewers. :lol:

 

I actually had to Google Dayfiles. We have them in North America, but I admit to not being very familiar with them. Apparently they only live a few days at most, so now I get it. Sort of. :blink:

 

You might be thinking of Mayflies, and they only live for a month...unless they're eaten by a trout.

 

Same thing with different regional names. See, I told you I Googled it. And no, Wikipedia says the lifespan in only a few days, and Wikipedia is never wrong. :P

 

So you live maybe 150 miles from me, we have these in New York? In retrospect, I've probably seen absolute swarms of them when I lived on the shores of Devil's Lake, North Dakota for a couple weeks (military training). I thought they were all Dragonflies though. :)

 

There are lots of mayflies in New York. Roscoe, NY (in the Catskills, along the Beaverkill River) bills itself as the dry fly fishing capital of the world, and most of those dry flies are some kind of mayfly. If you go to www.mayfly.com you'll find a flyfishing website created by a guy name Al Caucci. He runs a flyfishing shop/camp on the west branch of the Delaware river (near Hancock, NY, about two hours from here) and is the author of what I think is the definitive book on Mayflies (called Hatches II). I have a copy of it upstairs.

 

As a flyfisherman and fly tier I've tied mayflies in a range of sizes. Trico (Tricorythodes minutus) imitations are typically tied on a size #20 hook or smaller (one could easily find several trico flies inside a nano container). I've fished the west branch of the Delaware when a size #20 wouldn't get a rise form a fish but going two sizes smaller (to a #24) would. A Hexagenia mayfly is one of the largest and also fairly common in NY. The can get up to 1.5" long. There is also a mayfly called a Green Drake that is really large and apparently there is a heavy green drake hatch on Skaneateles lake around the end of June that is supposed to be amazing.

 

The flies you saw in North Dakota might have been Stone flies. If you saw "A River Runs Through It" that big fly that Brad Pitt used to catch that really big trout looked like a Stone fly to me. They can get huge.

 

I've got a system in my office I use for development and testing that's gone through a few hardware upgrades but it's official hostname is "mayfly".

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This boils down to "Other cachers don't play the game the way I LIKE to so GS.com should force them to do it MY WAY".

 

There are as many ways to enjoy our hobby as there are geocachers. If a billion new "geotrash" caches suddenly appeared in my area I wouldn't fret - that's what the "ignore" button (and NA button)is for.

 

If I had been restricted any more than I was as a new "basic" member I probably would have never become a premium member.

 

Less Premium members = less cash for GS.com

I agree. You dont have to find them all. Some cachers like easy hides in uninteresting places.

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What ever happened to the suggestion that there be a quiz on the guidelines that you have to take before hiding your first cache? It seems that a lot of newbies now are anxious to hide caches and when they to the part about reading the and understanding the guidelines they just check a box. A quiz would not stop people from placing caches that don't meet the guidelines. What it does do is slow them down a bit and forces them to learn at least some guidelines in order to pass the test.

 

I don't like the idea of waiting period or a minimum number of finds before allowing a hide. I don't feel this addresses the problems that get pinned on newbie cachers. Many people enjoy hiding caches more so than finding them. And owning a cache is one way to keep someone interested in geocaching. If the obstacles to placing caches become too burdensome for newbies, you will have a lot more who quit after a short stint like the "dayflies". Sure they will have placed fewer caches, but the problem of poorly placed caches and hides that are abandoned by someone who quit geocaching will not have been solved. Perhaps these "dayflies" cause enough of a problem that you will see some improvement. But at what cost? How many creative hides will we not see because someone who is a natural hider quits when they discover that they have to wait to hide their first cache?

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What ever happened to the suggestion that there be a quiz on the guidelines that you have to take before hiding your first cache? It seems that a lot of newbies now are anxious to hide caches and when they to the part about reading the and understanding the guidelines they just check a box. A quiz would not stop people from placing caches that don't meet the guidelines. What it does do is slow them down a bit and forces them to learn at least some guidelines in order to pass the test.

 

I don't like the idea of waiting period or a minimum number of finds before allowing a hide. I don't feel this addresses the problems that get pinned on newbie cachers. Many people enjoy hiding caches more so than finding them. And owning a cache is one way to keep someone interested in geocaching. If the obstacles to placing caches become too burdensome for newbies, you will have a lot more who quit after a short stint like the "dayflies". Sure they will have placed fewer caches, but the problem of poorly placed caches and hides that are abandoned by someone who quit geocaching will not have been solved. Perhaps these "dayflies" cause enough of a problem that you will see some improvement. But at what cost? How many creative hides will we not see because someone who is a natural hider quits when they discover that they have to wait to hide their first cache?

 

Great post Mr. T. I must admit to "forgetting" about the whole quiz thing. I think it's a great idea, and sign me up for it. Until I forget it was ever proposed again. :P

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I got a membership so I could do paperless caches--I don't know how many times I walked in circles because I let my son plug in the numbers on our way to a park!

 

I don't have a smartphone--could someone tell me, does the phone app give you all the details? Maybe it's just gotten a bit TOO easy. Of course, a solution could be to read the description of the cache, including the hider's profile. If they look lame, pass it up.

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A poster in the Canada forum mentioned that smart phone app users do not have to have geocaching.com accounts. Is this correct? If so, I think that is a terrible system. It means that people can access cache coordinates without having any idea at all of what they are doing.

 

Of course, they generally aren't going to stray too far from the Starbucks to find them, so I guess my caches are safe. :rolleyes:

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What ever happened to the suggestion that there be a quiz on the guidelines that you have to take before hiding your first cache? It seems that a lot of newbies now are anxious to hide caches and when they to the part about reading the and understanding the guidelines they just check a box. A quiz would not stop people from placing caches that don't meet the guidelines. What it does do is slow them down a bit and forces them to learn at least some guidelines in order to pass the test.

 

I don't like the idea of waiting period or a minimum number of finds before allowing a hide. I don't feel this addresses the problems that get pinned on newbie cachers. Many people enjoy hiding caches more so than finding them. And owning a cache is one way to keep someone interested in geocaching. If the obstacles to placing caches become too burdensome for newbies, you will have a lot more who quit after a short stint like the "dayflies". Sure they will have placed fewer caches, but the problem of poorly placed caches and hides that are abandoned by someone who quit geocaching will not have been solved. Perhaps these "dayflies" cause enough of a problem that you will see some improvement. But at what cost? How many creative hides will we not see because someone who is a natural hider quits when they discover that they have to wait to hide their first cache?

 

Great post Mr. T. I must admit to "forgetting" about the whole quiz thing. I think it's a great idea, and sign me up for it. Until I forget it was ever proposed again. :P

 

I seem to recall that the new hider quiz was a feature that was "under consideration" in the old Feedback site. I think it's a great idea as well, and perhaps with the demise of the old Feedback site, Groundspeak forgot that they said they might implement it as well. Perhaps, a [FEATURE] request should be posted in the Features foruum.

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I got a membership so I could do paperless caches--I don't know how many times I walked in circles because I let my son plug in the numbers on our way to a park!

 

I don't have a smartphone--could someone tell me, does the phone app give you all the details? Maybe it's just gotten a bit TOO easy. Of course, a solution could be to read the description of the cache, including the hider's profile. If they look lame, pass it up.

It does. I started with the iPhone app and it gives you all info about the cache, shows logs, photos and accesses Google maps to give you an aerial view of the location.
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A poster in the Canada forum mentioned that smart phone app users do not have to have geocaching.com accounts. Is this correct? If so, I think that is a terrible system. It means that people can access cache coordinates without having any idea at all of what they are doing.

 

Of course, they generally aren't going to stray too far from the Starbucks to find them, so I guess my caches are safe. :rolleyes:

 

OH gosh, recently you heard that? I have the official app, but Windows Phone. It doesn't appear I can log out, and just look at caches. Maybe they meant the free trial version? Someone else will have to verify though.

 

Guess what though? From 2000, until about 2007 or so, no one needed an account to look at the website, and see cache coordinates. Of course anyone who did do this back then, would have had to be a handheld GPS owner, as it was before both the "find caches with your windshield car GPS craze", and the "find caches with your smartphone craze". :P

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What ever happened to the suggestion that there be a quiz on the guidelines that you have to take before hiding your first cache? It seems that a lot of newbies now are anxious to hide caches and when they to the part about reading the and understanding the guidelines they just check a box. A quiz would not stop people from placing caches that don't meet the guidelines. What it does do is slow them down a bit and forces them to learn at least some guidelines in order to pass the test.

 

I don't like the idea of waiting period or a minimum number of finds before allowing a hide. I don't feel this addresses the problems that get pinned on newbie cachers. Many people enjoy hiding caches more so than finding them. And owning a cache is one way to keep someone interested in geocaching. If the obstacles to placing caches become too burdensome for newbies, you will have a lot more who quit after a short stint like the "dayflies". Sure they will have placed fewer caches, but the problem of poorly placed caches and hides that are abandoned by someone who quit geocaching will not have been solved. Perhaps these "dayflies" cause enough of a problem that you will see some improvement. But at what cost? How many creative hides will we not see because someone who is a natural hider quits when they discover that they have to wait to hide their first cache?

 

Great post Mr. T. I must admit to "forgetting" about the whole quiz thing. I think it's a great idea, and sign me up for it. Until I forget it was ever proposed again. :P

 

I seem to recall that the new hider quiz was a feature that was "under consideration" in the old Feedback site. I think it's a great idea as well, and perhaps with the demise of the old Feedback site, Groundspeak forgot that they said they might implement it as well. Perhaps, a [FEATURE] request should be posted in the Features foruum.

 

There's a beta submission form:

http://www.geocachin...achebasics.aspx

No quiz, but it's a much clearer process.

Edited by L0ne R
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What ever happened to the suggestion that there be a quiz on the guidelines that you have to take before hiding your first cache? It seems that a lot of newbies now are anxious to hide caches and when they to the part about reading the and understanding the guidelines they just check a box. A quiz would not stop people from placing caches that don't meet the guidelines. What it does do is slow them down a bit and forces them to learn at least some guidelines in order to pass the test.

 

I don't like the idea of waiting period or a minimum number of finds before allowing a hide. I don't feel this addresses the problems that get pinned on newbie cachers. Many people enjoy hiding caches more so than finding them. And owning a cache is one way to keep someone interested in geocaching. If the obstacles to placing caches become too burdensome for newbies, you will have a lot more who quit after a short stint like the "dayflies". Sure they will have placed fewer caches, but the problem of poorly placed caches and hides that are abandoned by someone who quit geocaching will not have been solved. Perhaps these "dayflies" cause enough of a problem that you will see some improvement. But at what cost? How many creative hides will we not see because someone who is a natural hider quits when they discover that they have to wait to hide their first cache?

 

Great post Mr. T. I must admit to "forgetting" about the whole quiz thing. I think it's a great idea, and sign me up for it. Until I forget it was ever proposed again. :P

 

I seem to recall that the new hider quiz was a feature that was "under consideration" in the old Feedback site. I think it's a great idea as well, and perhaps with the demise of the old Feedback site, Groundspeak forgot that they said they might implement it as well. Perhaps, a [FEATURE] request should be posted in the Features foruum.

 

There's a beta submission form:

http://www.geocaching.com/hide/cachebasics.aspx

No quiz, but it's a much better clearer process.

 

I did a walk through of the beta submission form when I first heard about it and agree that it's much clearer. Since the new process is in beta, it seems like this would be the best time to beta test related features such as a "new hider quiz" or a basic proximity tester. IMHO, the best thing about the new beta CSP is that the current cache submission process is coexisting so it's not like GS has sprung a new way of doing things (i.e. beta maps) with no way of reverting back to the "old way." It could even be improved by calling it "Beta-1", with a periodic release cycle with "beta-2", "beta-3", etc. and eventually a "beta-n" version will become the general audience (GA) release of the cache submission process.

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I'm fully agree with wildlifeseeker.

since a report on TV the caches are rising on places that have no senses.

I think that a lot af people are trying the game and hide caches averywhere.

The idea of wildlifeseeker to give the permission only on premiummembers or members every six months is good.

So the gamers have some expierence to find before they hide something.

 

Take a look at this link and surrounding areas

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GC1BVNX

 

Where is the challenge / adventure in this?????

 

This trail is MUCH worse and is put out by an experienced PM cacher. ALL 165 are lame micros.

 

http://coord.info/map?ll=51.41687,4.41616&z=12

 

Actually, "your" trail has two parts, a "lame micro" part, and a multi-nightcache part.

 

Anyway, power trails are becoming increasingly popular here, which is not a good sign.

Edited by JoLTeam
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Many times this has come up but died because of the newbies who do put out great caches.

But the point of geocaching was to seek out caches and to give back by placing them. We are now getting new cachers placing before actually finding any. I keep wondering how experienced these new cachers are. Yes I understand family members who cache together and friends but if they still don't log the ones they found how does this show others the experience. Also when they want to just place quickly after signing up you wonder have they read the guidelines.

We have a lot of new cachers pop up and after they place the caches they tend to disappear.

Of course some do stick around.

So I had suggested before for new cachers to place caches either

1) Be a premium member

 

or

 

2) Have found 50 caches of at least 3 types.

Edited by jellis
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Many times this has come up but died because of the newbies who do put out great caches.

But the point of geocaching was to seek out caches and to give back by placing them. We are now getting new cachers placing before actually finding any. I keep wondering how experienced these new cachers are. Yes I understand family members who cache together and friends but if they still don't log the ones they found how does this show others the experience. Also when they want to just place quickly after signing up you wonder have they read the guidelines.

We have a lot of new cachers pop up and after they place the caches they tend to disappear.

Of course some do stick around.

So I had suggested before for new cachers to place caches either

1) Be a premium member

 

or

 

2) Have found 50 caches of at least 3 types.

 

Boo on #2. That will never happen.

 

Some folks are wired differently. When I first discovered caching I was excited to get my first few finds, but hiding caches is what appealed to me most about the activity of geocaching. I have been a hider my whole life. I hid my first cache in 1980. I hid dozens of caches in the Sierras and many of these locations are now geocaches and very much favorited by finders since favorites came along.

 

Some folks just don't understand there are folks like me that don't care to find every cache on Earth. They want to hide caches more than find them.

Edited by Snoogans
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So I had suggested before for new cachers to place caches either

1) Be a premium member

 

or

 

2) Have found 50 caches of at least 3 types.

 

No real comment about premium membership:

 

But how would a new cacher near, say, this spot:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.aspx?lat=34.985433&lng=-95.521617

 

not be really unfairly penalized by the 50 cache / 3 different types rule? They'll have to cache in a 29 mile radius to get that many caches, and the puzzle cache they'll solve for type #3 involves a LOT of hiking. If nothing else, it could easily take someone a month to accomplish all this.

 

Contrast this with say, Addison, TX:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.aspx?lat=32.962700&lng=-96.826433

 

A new cacher here might have to travel as much as 1.5 miles to complete 50 caches of 3 different types. How is this even remotely fair or sensible to people in sparse areas? How would it do anything but encourage even more caches in densely populated areas, and discourage them from remote areas?

 

You could say, I guess, "well, those people in remote areas will just have to go premium then!" but that first area I linked is NOT a wealthy area - $30/yr doesn't make much difference to me - I think it's a great deal. But for some, it makes a difference, and more to the point, how would they know whether or not they want the membership if they can't decide whether or not they like the game because they aren't allowed to fully participate?

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I think that the best workable solutions are either the quize, or the graduated scale (only one in your first month etc.). Both seem reasonable, and do not exclude new cachers.

 

I think just the fact that a newbie could only place one in their first month, you would see them not wanting to wast their precious allowance of one cache. They would then make an effort to make their one cache a good one. Then once they have been around a bit longer, they could place two more ... This may actualy promote longevity as the new cacher is anticipating their new cache placemnt allowance.

 

The quize is good becaus it will require the new cacher to do at least some reading, even if it is just while doing the test, looking up the answers.

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What's wrong with newbie, basic members? :unsure:

Nothing. I was one once! The real issue is with those who are gung-ho for a short period of time, place caches, do no maintenance and do not pick up the cache after they or the reviewer has archived it. Some do not even respond to polite emails asking for a check. As always there are exceptions, but it is a great shame that some bad apples are spoiling the barrel. They probably don't even realize the issues. A new cache can't be placed, for example. Geo-trash another, giving all geocachers a bad name. We all need to honest with ourselves as to how many caches we have the time and the energy for.

I didn't place my cache for the longest time, and Popoki Nui only has a few. I am ready to place another, but close-ish to home, so taking care of it is easy.

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I can see several sorts of ideas in this thread getting comingled and not in a helpful way:

1. New cachers who hide stuff badly - they don't know how to use their GPS, know decent hiding techniques, know the rules to avoid problems (private property, etc.)

2. New cachers who hide some stuff, maybe a lot of stuff, and then lose interest and abandon their stuff in the field

3. New cachers who hide ______ type of cache that I don't like. Let's try to find a rule to stop _____ by preventing new folks from hiding something I don't like. Maybe they won't hide that stuff later if they continue on.

 

#1 - you could fix with education, a quiz, etc. These are helpful ideas I think.

#2 - there is no current solution to this in the game for any cacher, new or old. None of the solutions suggested in this thread seem particularly helpful here to me, and some could be harmful. About all you could do is to try to improve the tools so that it's easier for other's to clean up after people who've quit.

#3 - just give up, you can't eliminate stuff you don't like this way - it simply isn't going to happen.

 

I think the OP's main concern was #3, unfortunately.

 

 

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This thread hit home today. Today, I spent an hour searching for a new cache today that was 30 meters off. :( The CO has zero finds and used an iPhone to get the coordinates. :mad:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=9806e771-4960-4fe2-b118-b2e3527186fd

 

--------

 

As for my 2 cents:

 

The guidelines currently suggest finding 20 caches before hiding one.

 

I would personally like to see this enforced by reviewers. To make it easier for them, the cache listing could be flagged automatically if the user has less than 20 finds.

 

The exception being areas with very few caches.

 

Yes, I know this is no guarantee of a quality cache, but it would help.

 

I would also like to see it made more clear that iPhones cannot be used to hide caches. The guidelines say 'GPS device'. I could see how some people could think 'oh, my iPhone is GPS enabled, so it should be OK'. :mad:

Edited by The_Incredibles_
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In my initial disgust at what was suggested, I missed the "find 50 of 3 different types".

 

If that became a rule, I know for sure I would probably give up caching. I find the puzzle and mystery caches difficult, plus with a 3 year old in tow 90% of the time, I like to know exactly how far we have to walk/get the bus to (I rely on public transport).

I think I've found two mystery caches, that were extremely close to their posted co-ords, and only required finding other traditional caches and I'm yet to solve a puzzle one.

 

Everyone plays this game differently, and I'm only interested in finding traditional caches, at least until I have more experience and time alone under my belt to explore other types of caches.

I know I'm probably not the only one.

 

Isn't this supposed to be fun?

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Here's my 2 cents:

I'm a relatively new cacher (coming up on a year) and I've found 225 caches. I've also placed 19. I agree with the 20 minimum being a requirement as my first cache was a bit premature (about 10 finds in). However, it wasn't a light pole or guard rail cache. It was a camoed bucket hidden on an island. The coordinates were off because I had very little idea what i was doing. But a local cacher helped me out by correcting my coordinates and gave me tips on how to get better coordinates. I am a smartphone-only cacher, still am, probably always will be. However, I've discovered that i can get coordinates as good, if not better than a handheld using an averaging app. I have had experienced cachers complement my coordinates on later hides. Yes, it was a rough start but I'm addicted to caching because of being able to do everything right from the get-go.

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Perhaps it is not the number of finds that is the issue but the amount of time being a member (premium or not). Let's say, if you are a member for three months then you can hide caches. Of course, an account never closes - we know this - but if you are still using your account after three months (which so many fly-by-nighters are not) then you can hide caches.

 

That gives the people with local cache scarcity a break, allows for a few finds here and there over time, and doesn't pass judgement on whether or not you need to find a certain number of hides before you can be considered "experienced" enough to put out a good hide.

 

It is the dedication over time, I believe, that makes a solid cacher.

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The other problem with limiting hides by people until they've found "N" caches is that what if all the caches they find are terrible and are poor examples?

 

The general idea - don't hide something until you've seen a few caches of different types that are nice hides to give you some idea how people approach hiding caches - is a fine idea. It's just that there isn't anybody to guide someone to good beginner caches. (I suppose lists of such caches could be created locally and kept up to date - although WHO exactly would do that, decide what goes on the list, and the drama associated with all that might be horrible. On second thought - never mind.)

 

Of course, none of this helps the new hider learn how to use their GPSr properly to mark a waypoint, which is also one of the problems.

 

Indeed, I'd argue that the fastest way to find "N" caches before you can hide is to run a power-trail - the not at all what the OP would want I think - since this is what he complained about.

 

I am totally sympathetic to the complaints in this thread, and have personally experienced some caches with serious, serious problems caused by beginner mistakes. (Since I'm in a sparse area, a beginner mistake may mean a 15 mile one way drive...) I just don't think that most of the solutions offered so far will help. :(

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Indeed, I'd argue that the fastest way to find "N" caches before you can hide is to run a power-trail - the not at all what the OP would want I think - since this is what he complained about.

 

I once went looking for evidence of this and read some of the logs on the ET trail. I found one account that was created the day before they ran the trail that had over 1100 finds. That's more than I've had in over 5 years of geocaching. It's more that cachers like Briansnat, Snoogans, and am sure a few other cache with a breadth of experience. Finding "N" caches is just not a valid criteria as a measure of experience.

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Isn't this supposed to be fun?

 

Yes. It needs to be fun not only for the new CO but for the finders too.

 

For example it's not fun when a geography class of kids with no geocaching experience are given an assignment to plant and post caches. Their coordinates are not checked for accuracy before publication and the cache finder becomes the guinea pig. Once the complaints start to come in about poor placement, terrible coordinates and poor container quality the students do nothing because they've done the assignment and it's over for them. It takes approximately 2 years before all of these caches are finally archived by reviewers. In this example it's not fun for the finders. It also wastes their time and gas money.

 

If new COs had to wait at least a couple of weeks before posting a cache and pass a guidelines quiz it should benefit the caching community as a whole.

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If new COs had to wait at least a couple of weeks before posting a cache and pass a guidelines quiz it should benefit the caching community as a whole.

 

I don;t think a guidelines quiz would be sufficient. You can easily search the kowledge books for the right answer, and get a perfect score. That doesn't mean the person gets it.

 

Also, there are things that can't be put into a knowledge book, such as 1) what makes a good container, and what the bad ones are 2) local rules/regs 3) local areas off limits, etc.

 

There needs to be some sort of class (whether live or web based) for hte area/state that people shoiuld be required to sit through.

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This thread hit home today. Today, I spent an hour searching for a new cache today that was 30 meters off. :( The CO has zero finds and used an iPhone to get the coordinates. :mad:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=9806e771-4960-4fe2-b118-b2e3527186fd

 

--------

 

As for my 2 cents:

...

I would also like to see it made more clear that iPhones cannot be used to hide caches. The guidelines say 'GPS device'. I could see how some people could think 'oh, my iPhone is GPS enabled, so it should be OK'. :mad:

I feel your pain, but you are way off. Just like stand alone GPSrs, some smartphones are no good at placing caches (eg. iPhone before iPhone4, LG Optimus etc.) However, there are many phones that are just as good as a standalone GPSr. Of course, like anything, if the user does not understand the limitations of their device, poor results will follow. This applies to smart phones and standalone GSPrs.

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If new COs had to wait at least a couple of weeks before posting a cache and pass a guidelines quiz it should benefit the caching community as a whole.

 

I don;t think a guidelines quiz would be sufficient. You can easily search the kowledge books for the right answer, and get a perfect score. That doesn't mean the person gets it.

 

But at least it ensures that the person read the knowledge books (or at least guessed, and had their guess confirmed as the correct answer) before being able to submit a listing. Currently, all one needs to do is click on a box which says "Yes, I have read the guidelines" and they can submit a cache, even if they never did read the guidelines.

 

Although there are things that might not be described in the guidelines or knowledge books I would see some of the questions that just test of common sense. It's not that much different from a drivers license question that can be answered correctly if one uses a little common sense and doesn't necessarily require reading a specific passage in the driver license study manual.

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Since the "find x before hiding any" comment comes up a lot, I asked a while back how many finds folks had before they hid their first cache. In my initial post, I pointed out that Dave Ulmer didn't follow that rule...

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This thread hit home today. Today, I spent an hour searching for a new cache today that was 30 meters off. :( The CO has zero finds and used an iPhone to get the coordinates. :mad:

 

http://www.geocachin...18-b2e3527186fd

 

--------

 

As for my 2 cents:

...

I would also like to see it made more clear that iPhones cannot be used to hide caches. The guidelines say 'GPS device'. I could see how some people could think 'oh, my iPhone is GPS enabled, so it should be OK'. :mad:

I feel your pain, but you are way off. Just like stand alone GPSrs, some smartphones are no good at placing caches (eg. iPhone before iPhone4, LG Optimus etc.) However, there are many phones that are just as good as a standalone GPSr. Of course, like anything, if the user does not understand the limitations of their device, poor results will follow. This applies to smart phones and standalone GSPrs.

 

What's worse is when the new CO uses a poor device or perhaps an online map service to get their coordinates but won't change them when people post better coordinates.

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Since the "find x before hiding any" comment comes up a lot, I asked a while back how many finds folks had before they hid their first cache. In my initial post, I pointed out that Dave Ulmer didn't follow that rule...

Agreed but like everything that was done at the beginning Geocaching has learned. For safety, common sense, laws and many other reasons that come up overtime.

Dave buried a cache. But we learned how much damage that can do. Many rules and guidelines have evolved, some we accepted some we have not.

Even some of the new sites at the beginning some cachers had joined because of the lack of some rules that now the sites learned are for a reason

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Since the "find x before hiding any" comment comes up a lot, I asked a while back how many finds folks had before they hid their first cache. In my initial post, I pointed out that Dave Ulmer didn't follow that rule...

Agreed but like everything that was done at the beginning Geocaching has learned. For safety, common sense, laws and many other reasons that come up overtime.

Dave buried a cache. But we learned how much damage that can do. Many rules and guidelines have evolved, some we accepted some we have not.

Even some of the new sites at the beginning some cachers had joined because of the lack of some rules that now the sites learned are for a reason

 

Since I've been critical about these ideas, without offering any suggestions myself, here's my stab at rules for this. I think that the main things that you could accomplish by limiting early hides by new players would be attempting to avoid situations that are liable to need a lot of owner maintenance and support, and are historically problematical. The types of situations I have in mind:

 

1. Very high difficulty / very high terrain caches as early hides. (D/T 4.5-5) I'm sorry, but your first hide should probably not be a "T5 requires boat" hide. Cacher should have one other hide in place for six months before such a hide. (Rationale: you need to show us you'll be around for a while before we let you do something that will be hard to maintain, and that nobody else will want to go out and pick up either, should you quit.) BTW, on this one, I am more willing to impose greater requirements - if you are going to hide something for an experienced cacher, shouldn't you at least demonstrate some experience yourself?

 

2. Hides remote from the user's home location - your first hide shouldn't be more than 10-15 miles away from your home in an urban area, and maybe 30 miles in a remote area until the cacher has had at least one other hide in place for 6 months. (The numbers I've picked are fairly liberal and arbitrary. Rationale: you need to show us you'll be around for a while before we let you do something that will be hard to maintain, and that nobody else will want to go out and pick up either, should you quit.)

 

3. No complex multicaches / night caches with more than 4 waypoints or covering more than 2-3 miles until the user has had one other hide in place for six months. Rationale: these types of caches with multiple waypoints tend to break for a variety of reasons, and you shouldn't hide one until you've hidden something simpler and maintained it for a time at least.)

 

4. Flood control - you may hide up to 100 caches of any type in the first six months of your membership, subject to the restrictions above. (Rationale: If you aren't going to hang around for a while, we don't want to clean up your ill-conceived version of the E.T. trail.)

 

The basic idea here is you must hide at least ONE simpler cache for six months that is found at least one time before attempting something really ambitions. (Maybe it should be more like 2-3 if the first hide greatly differs from the ambitious target - i.e. you want to hide a really elaborate and difficult wilderness hide, but your first hide was an LPC at walmart.)

 

I have absolutely no doubt that someone on this forum who's better and more experienced than me will call me out and tell me that their first hide was a T5 "requires boat" cache that inolved a long series of waypoints along a river in a kayak, that has been in play longer than I've been involved in this game, and has a gazillion favorite points. Be that as it may be, I feel pretty strongly that very complex hides are just a bad choice for a beginner, because:

 

a. Remote locations are going to be problematical for the NM / NA system to deal with. Someone who abandons a really remote or difficult to reach cache may be leaving something that is NEVER dealt with because nobody will bother.

 

b. All the stuff that can go wrong with a beginning hider (bad coords, etc.) are compounded by a difficult and challenging location.

 

c. The more difficult terrain types often involve some element of risk or skill. It would be nice to give the local community a chance to get to know the hider, at least a little, before allowing them to invite folks into a potentially hazardous situation.

 

BTW, I do not envision rules so restrictive that it would prevent someone from hiding a D3/T3 2 mile hike into the woods of a local park or nature area terminating in bad coordinates with a horrible, broken container as their first hide. Would that be really annoying? Yes. Could the community do something about it if the cacher vanished after 2 weeks? Sure.

 

You'll also note that I don't mention how many finds someone should have before attempting to hide a cache. That is deliberate.

 

Although I don't really believe that most beginners would conceive of hiding a power-trail or a night cache, I have seen plenty of really poorly conceived "needs boat" type caches that are hidden by enthusiastic beginners who happen to be boaters. The general idea here is that people should get at least a little experience hiding something simpler before they try hiding something that is extremely challenging, and to have minimal impact on the ability of new players to, you know, actually play the game.

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It's pretty simple folks:

There is no one simple, universal, all-encompassing solution to this 'problem', and there never can be one.

 

'Must have xxx finds before placing'. What if there are no caches in their area to find? They give up in disgust.

 

'Must wait xxx days/months/dog years before placing'. Again, if there are no (or limited) caches in their area, little or no experience will be gained while 'waiting'.

 

'Must have xxx finds before placing'. Contrary to the above (and an issue that was pointed out early on in this thread),

if their area is saturated with ill-conceived caches, they will only get the impression that ill-conceived caches are the norm, and place more of the same.

 

The best possible solution is a sponsorship/mentoring program. This gets into a potential problem with a possible lack of mentors, and/or 'distance from the nearest mentor' problems.

Not to mention who gets to decide who the mentors are.

As Kesuke Miyagi said, 'There is no bad student, only bad teacher!'.

 

In spite of all the potential issues, I still think the organic approach is the best.

Bad caches by dayfly/mayfly cachers are naturally remove as time goes on...natural selection at work.

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This thread hit home today. Today, I spent an hour searching for a new cache today that was 30 meters off. :( The CO has zero finds and used an iPhone to get the coordinates. :mad:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=9806e771-4960-4fe2-b118-b2e3527186fd

 

--------

 

As for my 2 cents:

...

I would also like to see it made more clear that iPhones cannot be used to hide caches. The guidelines say 'GPS device'. I could see how some people could think 'oh, my iPhone is GPS enabled, so it should be OK'. :mad:

I feel your pain, but you are way off. Just like stand alone GPSrs, some smartphones are no good at placing caches (eg. iPhone before iPhone4, LG Optimus etc.) However, there are many phones that are just as good as a standalone GPSr. Of course, like anything, if the user does not understand the limitations of their device, poor results will follow. This applies to smart phones and standalone GSPrs.

 

Thanks for the info. If this is the case, there should be a list in the guidelines of GPSs or smartphones known to produce bad/good coords. Right now, the guidelines are vague. 'GPS device' can mean different things to different people. To me, this means no smartphone.

 

Listings must contain accurate GPS coordinates. You must visit the cache location and obtain the coordinates with a GPS device. GPS usage...
Edited by The_Incredibles_
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