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Are we bieng forced to become premium members


The DogCachers

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I used to be a premium member but due to cost i had to stop it. My concern is almost all new caches being placed are member only caches. I know the membership keeps the site going but when 75 to 80% of the caches from your home coords are member only, its turning into a pay to play activity. I would like to see a limited number of member caches per area, which the reviewer should be able to determine when activating the new cache. So either make it all pay or make some changes to make it a 50 50 activity.

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Hello The DogCachers, I used pocket queries to determine that the number of PMO caches currently being placed in your area is below 50%.

 

In the last year, 1000 caches have been placed within 28.5 miles of your Bloopen Morgan hide. 382 of those are PMO. This does seem like a lot.

 

I asked for 1000 caches non-PMO cnetered on Bloopen Morgain, this goes out 18.9 miles. If I ask for PMO only caches in that same 18.9 mile radius, there are 205 caches, ie 17% of the caches (205/1205)within 19 miles are PMO. This is without any "date placed" restriction.

 

I have seen a trend in my area, central Florida, to more PMO caches. It used to run about 1%, and the last time I checked it's up to 10% (and I just checked again, in the last year it jumped to 26%). Your area is higher still. At some point, this may be a problem that deters the growth of the game, as novices can't come in without buying in. It's not a problem now.

 

It could NEVER be up to the reviewer to determine if a cache was to be PMO or not. That would have to be a cache owner decision.

Edited by Isonzo Karst
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The guidelines permit anyone to find and log PMOCs. It's harder to do so but not that much of a challenge. The exception is in things like Unknowns and EC's where you have to be able to see the cache page (that is the perk of PM membership, not exclusion).

The site provides all the basic information to you to find and log once you figure out how, it makes them a form of puzzle, logging is straight forward via the maps or several other routes. Keep having fun with it... Try doing some CITO while out there, and collect refundables as you go, does not take long to find 30 bucks worth given peoples littering skills.

But I do agree, people have to prioritize their spending, and sometimes Geocaching isn't on top of the pile.

 

Doug 7rxc

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It could NEVER be up to the reviewer to determine if a cache was to be PMO or not. That would have to be a cache owner decision.

 

Exactly.....

 

I don't think its fair to remove the option of making caches PMO caches either. Because after all, those who pay for premium memberships want those perks and make the membership worth while.

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Hello The DogCachers, I used pocket queries to determine that the number of PMO caches currently being placed in your area is below 50%.

 

In the last year, 1000 caches have been placed within 28.5 miles of your Bloopen Morgan hide. 382 of those are PMO. This does seem like a lot.

 

I asked for 1000 caches non-PMO cnetered on Bloopen Morgain, this goes out 18.9 miles. If I ask for PMO only caches in that same 18.9 mile radius, there are 205 caches, ie 17% of the caches (205/1205)within 19 miles are PMO. This is without any "date placed" restriction.

 

I have seen a trend in my area, central Florida, to more PMO caches. It used to run about 1%, and the last time I checked it's up to 10% (and I just checked again, in the last year it jumped to 26%). Your area is higher still. At some point, this may be a problem that deters the growth of the game, as novices can't come in without buying in. It's not a problem now.

 

It could NEVER be up to the reviewer to determine if a cache was to be PMO or not. That would have to be a cache owner decision.

 

There is a members only power trail in the area that is skewing the numbers. With the exception of that, scrolling around on the map shows the typical mix that you would normally see.

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It used to run about 1%, and the last time I checked it's up to 10% (and I just checked again, in the last year it jumped to 26%).

I'm not sure how "normal" my area is, but the percentage of PMO caches in my region is 4%.

 

Try looking at Seattle or Portland, OR :blink:

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Hello The DogCachers, I used pocket queries to determine that the number of PMO caches currently being placed in your area is below 50%.

 

In the last year, 1000 caches have been placed within 28.5 miles of your Bloopen Morgan hide. 382 of those are PMO. This does seem like a lot.

 

I asked for 1000 caches non-PMO cnetered on Bloopen Morgain, this goes out 18.9 miles. If I ask for PMO only caches in that same 18.9 mile radius, there are 205 caches, ie 17% of the caches (205/1205)within 19 miles are PMO. This is without any "date placed" restriction.

 

I have seen a trend in my area, central Florida, to more PMO caches. It used to run about 1%, and the last time I checked it's up to 10% (and I just checked again, in the last year it jumped to 26%). Your area is higher still. At some point, this may be a problem that deters the growth of the game, as novices can't come in without buying in. It's not a problem now.

 

It could NEVER be up to the reviewer to determine if a cache was to be PMO or not. That would have to be a cache owner decision.

 

I looked more in the area of his first find, even though it's possible that wouldn't be accurate for a 2002 joiner. :P

 

Now in that area, more in the City than the one you looked at, I'm seeing a very sizeable number of MOC's. Most notably, I noticed 5 CO's (there could be more) all in the more than 50 hide club, who have all of their 50+ hides MOC. I feel this is a "monkey see, monkee do", or "just because they can" sort of thing. It's been brought up in several geographic areas in the U.S. the last year or two, and no, I don't like it either.

 

You are correct, in the "old days" when people would "whine" about MOC's, you could usually do PQ for a region, and find under 5% of the caches were MOC's. You can still do this where I live. Add Mesa to the growing list of places where you can't. :(

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I used to be a premium member but due to cost i had to stop it. My concern is almost all new caches being placed are member only caches. I know the membership keeps the site going but when 75 to 80% of the caches from your home coords are member only, its turning into a pay to play activity. I would like to see a limited number of member caches per area, which the reviewer should be able to determine when activating the new cache. So either make it all pay or make some changes to make it a 50 50 activity.

 

Ok 75 to 80% was a little high. out of the first 3 pages from home coords there are 23 of 60 MOC's for 38% MOC's but since it is more recent issue taking out all caches placed over 4 years ago the percent goes to 49% 23 of 47. So yea in some areas it is becoming more of a members only game.

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I have created a couple of member only caches... but because they are ones I think are deserving of members, and those truly dedicated to Geocaching.

The cost of the yearly membership is very minor compared to the other "costs".

One of our local cachers has it all added up (I think there is an app for this somewhere... ) and it worked out for him at close to $10. per cache. This includes mileage, torn clothing, extra meal costs, traffic tickets, cost of caching materials to create and maintain caches (as a service to others, but also entertainment for the hider to read the logs), etc.

I consider the cost excellent value per hour of entertainment compared to, for example, a movie at half the cost of a year's membership.

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Here are the current stats of the State of Wyoming:

 

# Caches in State: 4846

# Caches PMO: 91 ( 1.9%)

# Caches Non PMO: 4755 (98.1%)

 

NOTE: These Numbers DO include 112 Non PMO and 1 PMO Archived cache.

 

The Steaks

 

P.S. My Owned PMO Caches are Challenge Caches. NOT to be compared to the new fangled Virtuals trying to be called challenges...

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I recently made all of my own caches Premium because someone kept stealing them. Now they're left alone. I didn't want to make them premium but I can't afford to spend all my time and money replacing my caches, either.

 

PS I wish we could turn in bottles and cans for cash but here in FL the reason for CITO is just to clean up. No such thing as refundables here.

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I was puzzled by the assumption that there is huge growth in premium caches. I ran a pocket query for 20 miles from my home and it returned around 510 caches. I did the same query for member-only and there is exactly 1 such cache in that radius.

 

Also, people say that they make their caches premium to cut down on theft and vandalism. I've seen that in many places, but I don't understand it other than the fact that by being premium, it gets less visibility and a lot less traffic.

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Also, people say that they make their caches premium to cut down on theft and vandalism. I've seen that in many places, but I don't understand it other than the fact that by being premium, it gets less visibility and a lot less traffic.
Some areas have cache maggots who actively vandalize/steal geocaches. If those cache maggots use only basic accounts, then PMO caches can be safer from vandalism/theft than non-PMO caches.

 

And of course, the reduced traffic can help protect PMO caches (or their locations) as well.

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We changed all ours to PMO when I realised that iPhone users could see cache details without even having to have a login! :mad:

 

We originally left our EarthCaches as open to all until some jerk logged a TFTC on one of them so I changed them to PMO as well. :blink:

 

 

Mark

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We changed all ours to PMO when I realised that iPhone users could see cache details without even having to have a login! :mad:
You mean they don't even have to have a membership in geocaching.com and can see the maps of caches? I'm curious because I've never used a smart phone and didn't know access was any different than what you'd see if you accessed geocaching.com from your desktop computer.
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We changed all ours to PMO when I realised that iPhone users could see cache details without even having to have a login! :mad:
You mean they don't even have to have a membership in geocaching.com and can see the maps of caches? I'm curious because I've never used a smart phone and didn't know access was any different than what you'd see if you accessed geocaching.com from your desktop computer.

If you are correct in your information, that is a poor feature that should be removed.

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We changed all ours to PMO when I realised that iPhone users could see cache details without even having to have a login! :mad:
You mean they don't even have to have a membership in geocaching.com and can see the maps of caches? I'm curious because I've never used a smart phone and didn't know access was any different than what you'd see if you accessed geocaching.com from your desktop computer.

If you are correct in your information, that is a poor feature that should be removed.

Why? PM caches also show up in search lists on the website, along with the distance and direction from your search point. It's been that way for years.

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We changed all ours to PMO when I realised that iPhone users could see cache details without even having to have a login! :mad:
You mean they don't even have to have a membership in geocaching.com and can see the maps of caches? I'm curious because I've never used a smart phone and didn't know access was any different than what you'd see if you accessed geocaching.com from your desktop computer.

If you are correct in your information, that is a poor feature that should be removed.

Why? PM caches also show up in search lists on the website, along with the distance and direction from your search point. It's been that way for years.

But, wouldn't you need to log in to run that search to see the list? The issue seems to be that a person who doesn't even have a membership (a login) can see the stuff, right?
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Why? PM caches also show up in search lists on the website, along with the distance and direction from your search point. It's been that way for years.

But, wouldn't you need to log in to run that search to see the list? The issue seems to be that a person who doesn't even have a membership (a login) can see the stuff, right?

 

No, anyone can run a search. Cache details, hints, D/T, and even the first 5 logs of any normal members cache can be seen without logging in. The only things hidden are the map and coordinates.

 

In the case of a PMO cache, the only things a non logged-in person/normal member can see are the Name and D/T ratings.

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Why? PM caches also show up in search lists on the website, along with the distance and direction from your search point. It's been that way for years.

But, wouldn't you need to log in to run that search to see the list? The issue seems to be that a person who doesn't even have a membership (a login) can see the stuff, right?

 

No, anyone can run a search. Cache details, hints, D/T, and even the first 5 logs of any normal members cache can be seen without logging in. The only things hidden are the map and coordinates.

 

In the case of a PMO cache, the only things a non logged-in person/normal member can see are the Name and D/T ratings.

 

But they are talking about the iPhone. Since I can't log off (and I'm not going to delete and reinstall, tyvm) I can't verify this...

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Why? PM caches also show up in search lists on the website, along with the distance and direction from your search point. It's been that way for years.

But, wouldn't you need to log in to run that search to see the list? The issue seems to be that a person who doesn't even have a membership (a login) can see the stuff, right?

 

No, anyone can run a search. Cache details, hints, D/T, and even the first 5 logs of any normal members cache can be seen without logging in. The only things hidden are the map and coordinates.

 

In the case of a PMO cache, the only things a non logged-in person/normal member can see are the Name and D/T ratings.

 

But they are talking about the iPhone. Since I can't log off (and I'm not going to delete and reinstall, tyvm) I can't verify this...

 

I was thinking that, but then again, Prime Suspect said website in his above post.

Anyway, I'm not much of a help with IPhones..:P

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But - and I know we are swiftly taking the off-topic off-ramp - the issue is not that you can go to the website and find coordinate info. The issue is that some girl or guy sitting at Starbucks can be playing on their smart phone, download an app that immediately - without any requirement to identify oneself or view the basic rules of the game - provides coordinates to your cache, and they go wandering over to it without a clue what they need to do.

 

Maybe they are uber-smart and grasp that you sign the log and put the container back. And when they get home, they log into the website, learn more about geocaching and become a well-respected member of the community.

 

OR

 

Maybe they take the container home with them.

Maybe they take a trackable and hang it from their rear view mirror.

Maybe they write obscenities in the log book, or pour their coffee into the lock and lock.

 

AND LIKELY

 

After a few days, and maybe dropping a hide of their own (a tic tac container under the lamp post skirt at Walmart), they stop caching and move on, having - like a mini tornado - left a smattering of inconveniences in their wake.

 

App-ies. Ugh. <_<

 

So, to get back on topic, I'm not surprised that there is an increase in PMO caches. I used to think it didn't matter, but we made our last cache PMO because we worked really hard on the container. I know it doesn't circumvent all disasters, but it certainly cuts down on whim-damage.

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I've also said before about the amount of stuff people can see when they don't log onto the website.

 

OK, with a Trad, you need the co-ords but with a Puzzle or a Multi it's sometimes possible to do the whole lot without logging in (if you're so inclined)

 

Here's an example http://coord.info/GC1D6BC. The full details of how to complete the cache are visible without logging in or needing to know the headline co-ordinates. The same would be even more true for a lot of Puzzles

 

I think it they don't log in they should only see Trads

 

 

Mark

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My point was that the information has been available to non-PM members for years, so the idea that this was some sort of serious security flaw is a bit misguided.

 

If someone sits at home in front of their PC, manually puts in their home co-ordinates and can see that there is a cache 0.2 miles away in a northerly direction it would be of very limited use and is completely different to someone using an iPhone app where their location is automatically updated and distances easily refreshed :unsure:

Same information it may be, but it's totally different context...

 

 

 

Mark

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My point was that the information has been available to non-PM members for years, so the idea that this was some sort of serious security flaw is a bit misguided.

 

If someone sits at home in front of their PC, manually puts in their home co-ordinates and can see that there is a cache 0.2 miles away in a northerly direction it would be of very limited use and is completely different to someone using an iPhone app where their location is automatically updated and distances easily refreshed :unsure:

Same information it may be, but it's totally different context...

 

 

 

Mark

 

Why linmit yourself to your home coordinates? Go to the search page, search by coordinates and you can land right on top of the PMO cache. All from the comforts of home with a refreshing adult beverage within easy reach. Who needs an iPhone?

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I've also said before about the amount of stuff people can see when they don't log onto the website.

 

OK, with a Trad, you need the co-ords but with a Puzzle or a Multi it's sometimes possible to do the whole lot without logging in (if you're so inclined)

 

Here's an example http://coord.info/GC1D6BC. The full details of how to complete the cache are visible without logging in or needing to know the headline co-ordinates. The same would be even more true for a lot of Puzzles

 

I think it they don't log in they should only see Trads

So what? It's not a PM cache, so the owner expects everyone to be able to see it. And membership is free, so what difference does it make? What's the point of making someone sign in to see a non-PM cache?

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no matter how many PMO caches are placed, the rate of placement of regulars is still huge. back in the old days :D the rate of cache placement was so low, a PQ of caches placed in the last year would give me over 100 mile radius, now its down to single digit miles, even if half of them are PMOs, thats still 5 times the caches placed.

 

In fact, in the UK for instance (and I know the US is faster), the cache placement rate now is 73 times higher than it was in 2003, that still leaves plenty of room for non premium members.

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In the case of a PMO cache, the only things a non logged-in person/normal member can see are the Name and D/T ratings.

 

I've never quite understood this. Although there may be many reasons why someone creates a PMO cache, one of them is to provide an incentive to basic members to become premium members. If the existence of a lot of PMO caches in an area can entice a few basic members to become premium members hopefully the increased income from their fees can help pay for improvements in the service that GS provides. If the only thing a basic member can see about a PMO cache is the name and d/t ratings how are they going to know what they're missing? Of course, this assume someone creating a PMO cache will try to make it a cut above their non-PMO caches.

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