+Sol seaker Posted April 28, 2012 Posted April 28, 2012 I don't watch TV, but I'd think they would be all over this by now. For those of you like me, who don't watch it, or haven't lately while planning your weekend caching trip, you might want to hold off on those Rattlesnake Ridge caches that I have been recently mentioning. They found the bunker of the guy who shot his wife and daughter in North Bend WA. They say it's near the Rattlesnake Ridge trailhead, but they don't say which one. Bunker found on Rattlesnake Ridge But best, in this case, to put off til tomorrow (or next week) what you might have done today (or this weekend). Maybe work on that new blackout challenge cache for Cougar Mtn or something.
+JesandTodd Posted April 28, 2012 Posted April 28, 2012 The news said west side. I was just at rattlesnake last week...
+Team Pixos Posted April 28, 2012 Posted April 28, 2012 His wife was a fantastic scrapbooker, and has many utube videos on doing projects. It's hit that board quite hard. I would hate for a geocacher to stumble on him.
Pup Patrol Posted April 28, 2012 Posted April 28, 2012 Originally published April 27, 2012 at 3:27 PM | Page modified April 27, 2012 at 10:11 PM http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2018089469_bunkerfound28m.html Photo, whiff of smoke were clues to North Bend survivalist's bunker About four dozen SWAT team members have surrounded a makeshift bunker on Rattlesnake Ridge where they believe Peter Keller, wanted in connection with the shooting deaths of his wife and daughter, is holed up. NORTH BEND — A fuzzy photograph, an observant hiker and a whiff of wood smoke led King County sheriff's deputies Friday to a camouflaged and fortified bunker carved into a wooded hillside where they believe a survivalist suspected of killing his family is holed up. The bunker was found by deputies creeping foot by foot through heavy undergrowth on Rattlesnake Ridge, not far from the home in North Bend where Peter Keller, 41, is believed to have shot and killed his wife and 19-year-old daughter as they slept, before setting fire to the home Sunday. The area had been identified by detectives working off evidence Keller had apparently intended to burn in the fire, but nobody knew the exact location of the bunker, according to the Sheriff's Office. Law-enforcement officers used extreme caution, believing Keller to be a self-trained survivalist who apparently had spent the past eight years digging, fortifying and stockpiling the bunker in preparation for "the end of the world." Detectives believe Keller is heavily armed, with large-caliber scoped rifles, and that eight years was plenty of time for him to rig routes of escape and booby-traps. "It could very well be that he's waiting for us to come in and get him. This is a very fluid and dangerous situation," said King County Sheriff Steve Strachan. For several hours Friday afternoon, about four dozen SWAT officers from the Sheriff's Office and Seattle Police Department fired and dropped tear gas into the log-lined opening of the bunker. Sheriff's Sgt. Cindi West, the department spokeswoman, said the team had managed to remove a front hatch Friday afternoon, but that whoever was inside was not responding to the gas or pleas to give up. Late Friday there was also discussion about possibly flooding the bunker with water, and the teams had asked for chain saws, West said. Strachan said the teams saw and heard movement in the bunker earlier in the day. One deputy thought he saw a generator inside. Strachan said they had pinpointed its location when someone smelled smoke — apparently from a woodstove in the bunker. With the concern that Keller may be waiting for deputies to enter, Strachan said it could take days for the situation to play out. "Elaborate structure" The bunker is dug into a hillside near the Rattlesnake Ridge Trail near North Bend. It has several entryways and ladders and is apparently shored up by logs and dirt, according to the Sheriff's Office. "This isn't a hole in the ground. It's an elaborate structure," Strachan said. The bunker is not far from where the bodies of Keller's wife of 21 years, Lynnettee, 41, and daughter Kaylene were found Sunday by firefighters responding to a house fire. Both had been shot in the head while they slept, authorities said. King County prosecutors say Keller set the fire by placing a gas can on a hot stove in an attempt to cover up the killings. Several additional gas cans with varying amounts of gasoline were scattered throughout the house, court documents say. Keller was charged Wednesday in King County Superior Court with two counts of first-degree murder and a single count of arson. According to court documents, Keller's daughter told her boyfriend that her father was preparing for "the end of the world" and stockpiling items in the woods. Those who know Keller say he has a fascination with guns, a survivalist mentality and a "distaste for authority," court documents say. One of Keller's co-workers at a Preston company that refurbishes computers told detectives that Keller owned handguns, high-caliber rifles, scopes, silencers and body armor. Detectives say that April 20, two days before the fire, Keller turned his cellphone off and withdrew $6,200 from his bank account. Photo was a clue Detectives believe Keller had been building the bunker for at least eight years, based on photos found on a hard drive recovered from his home. The photos reportedly document the construction of the bunker and helped deputies pinpoint its location. It was apparent from where the computer and disk were found in the house that Keller had intended them to be destroyed in the fire. A quick response by the Fire Department, however, saved the evidence. Among the photographs was a fuzzy picture that had been taken from the bunker, looking out over the area, said West, the spokeswoman. Through enhancements, the detectives were able to recognize buildings and the North Bend outlet mall, and determine the general direction from which the photo had been taken. Power lines in the photo allowed them to figure out that the bunker was 1,000 feet above sea level, Strachan said. The Sheriff's Office got its next break in the case when a hiker reported seeing Keller's red Toyota pickup parked at the Rattlesnake Ridge trailhead in past weeks. On Thursday, a pair of trained trackers — West called them "manhunters" — headed up the Rattlesnake Ridge trail, dressed inconspicuously as hikers. They found footprints of someone who had apparently been carrying a heavy load. Before the sun rose Friday, teams gathered at the trailhead and began a careful hike up the mountainside. In the late morning, a team member caught a whiff of smoke. A while later, deputies saw smoke and came upon the entrance to the bunker.
+hydnsek Posted April 28, 2012 Posted April 28, 2012 Yeah, we posted this on the WSGA Facebook page earlier today; good to also mention it here. I assumed it was the Snoqualmie winery trailhead from the news story that mentioned seeing the outlet mall in the distance.
+ShaunEM Posted April 28, 2012 Posted April 28, 2012 Anyone know what this guys problem was? Shoot your family and then go live in a rathole? Nice job.. Perhaps your survival skills should have included conflict resolution with your family. I can only imagine how little fun it would be for law enforcement to get him out of there. They should just fill it with water and call it a day. Shaun
+MtnMutt-ProDuckShins Posted April 28, 2012 Posted April 28, 2012 Both sides are closed, due to the area the Bunker is located. The news media is only showing the I-90 side. They are keeping anyone from wandering in from any side.
+Sol seaker Posted April 28, 2012 Author Posted April 28, 2012 My caches are famous. Just no one knows it.
+TotemLake Posted April 28, 2012 Posted April 28, 2012 It's all over except the final investigation and cleanup. It'll probably take a few more days (like the aircraft accident) before the trail is open again.
+JesandTodd Posted April 28, 2012 Posted April 28, 2012 Wonder what they'll do to the bunker? They said it had multiple levels...
+TotemLake Posted April 28, 2012 Posted April 28, 2012 Wonder what they'll do to the bunker? They said it had multiple levels... It is likely as much of the debris that can safely be removed will be, and the rest will be collapsed.
+JesandTodd Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 Seattle times has some pretty good pics posted: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/photogalleries/localnews2018096905/
+lamoracke Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 will be interesting to know which cache is the closest. Was wondering yesterday why there was not a forum topic of this story. Its a trail I had not been on before so I did not feel like starting one.
+MtnMutt-ProDuckShins Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 Think about the number of people who have travelled those trails without seeing the build of this place. Think about all the equipment he had up there and how he got it up there without being seen. I'm sure the site will be disposed in a way nothing will remain except a fresh dirt pile and logs scattered over the top to make it appear as if just a cleaned area.
+lamoracke Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 who knows, he had to park at a trail head. Perhaps someone saw someone with a huge backpack or big piece of wood or pipe but just did not want to approach him to ask a question. I mean, what would one do? He might have been dressed as a park ranger for all we know.
+Sol seaker Posted April 29, 2012 Author Posted April 29, 2012 News report It looks like that swat team was having way too much fun there. They followed the guy's footprints to the bunker, but they just had to lower the swat team by helicopter. Sometimes I swear they just want to make use of all that fun training they never had another chance to try. Can't say as I blame them, really. It was definitely near the west end of the ridge. I knew from the first reports, that there was no way someone got a way with a bunker around the lake. There is just too much ranger traffic around there. He would have been questioned. The video linked above shows a barricade and the announcer states that the bunker was a mile from there. I recognize that spot. That means it's not really that far in. I don't know what caches that would be closest to, but it's in the range of a lot of them. I wonder if we'll be able to tell where it used to be after they're all done. It would be an interesting spot for a cache as far as history is concerned. All kinds of teams are going in there now. They're really checking it out before destroying it. I would imagine they would be creating a trail now. FTF prize?
+Sol seaker Posted April 29, 2012 Author Posted April 29, 2012 If this image works... This is some of the stuff they found in the bunker. It is laid out on mowed grass. The only mowed grass around there is Snoqualmie Point Park. In the picture you can see the paved path that runs through the park and the tree from the wooded area next to the lawn. probably about 75 feet from this: One of my caches I'll check and see if any of the sheriffs log a find during this time.
+lamoracke Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 I think this was further into the woods. They probably brought all the stuff out to the main areas and displayed them for the cameras. They said they had to do a lot of tough terrain looking for it and bushwhacking, I bet the bunker was no where near any grass, but I do not know the area.
+JesandTodd Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 (edited) They airlifted the booty to another location. Even here in Iss we heard helicopters all day. Edited April 29, 2012 by JesandTodd
+Sol seaker Posted April 29, 2012 Author Posted April 29, 2012 I think this was further into the woods. They probably brought all the stuff out to the main areas and displayed them for the cameras. They said they had to do a lot of tough terrain looking for it and bushwhacking, I bet the bunker was no where near any grass, but I do not know the area. LOl. No, I did not mean to say I thought the bunker was there. I just placed this cache and I certainly would have noticed a bunker placed on that lawn!! Sorry if I was unclear. I was just getting a handle on the area still, and confirming the general area. It's probably about a mile from that spot in the photo, by the sheriffs reports. I'm not claiming a FTF on the location yet.
+uxorious Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 If this image works... One of my caches Save this picture for the next time someone wants to know what you carry in your Geocache pack.
+lamoracke Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 well, my Geocache pack if you divide it out into many trips over 8 years would be a breeze.
+The Jester Posted April 30, 2012 Posted April 30, 2012 KIRO 7 News just reported that the trail has been reopened today.
+Sol seaker Posted April 30, 2012 Author Posted April 30, 2012 KIRO 7 News just reported that the trail has been reopened today. Wow. That was fast. I wonder if both ends are open. They said they were going to clear out the bunker then destroy it. Then there's the fact that they have to get all the guns out of Snoqualmie Point Park. Not so good when the kiddies show up. I guess dynamite is quick.
+lamoracke Posted April 30, 2012 Posted April 30, 2012 I imagine removing the items from the bunker is not that difficult...but removing all visible trace of it, that would seem it would take longer to me. If a cacher or hiker wants to find this bunker GZ, they would be best to do it quickly while all the tracks are fresh.
+Sol seaker Posted April 30, 2012 Author Posted April 30, 2012 I imagine removing the items from the bunker is not that difficult...but removing all visible trace of it, that would seem it would take longer to me. If a cacher or hiker wants to find this bunker GZ, they would be best to do it quickly while all the tracks are fresh. Guess it's time to do cache maintenance.
+lamoracke Posted May 1, 2012 Posted May 1, 2012 more hints to where it was.. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2018110502_bunker01m.html some useful excerpts... "Located near a stream for drinking water, equipped with a pulley system and loaded with ..." "The investigators were among a group of people, including reporters and state Department of Natural Resources officials, who made the rugged off-trail hike up Rattlesnake Ridge on Monday to see the bunker." "A road leading to a nearby power station would have allowed him to haul heavy equipment and loads of material to a spot about 200 yards from his bunker"
+Sol seaker Posted May 1, 2012 Author Posted May 1, 2012 Really great article! Thanks for that! Has anyone checked out Google earth on this? The computer I had google earth on was stolen. I love to read the comments: "I recognize the design from "Bunker and Garden" magazine. It is the Saucelito, a one-man loft with a mud room. Nice." And some reporter said, "I'm surprised he didn't have more protein." when finding only legumes. The guy is in a bunker built by someone who killed his family, went off to a bunker he spent 8 years building, full of guns, and the only quotable thing he commented was there wasn't much protein stored??!!!??? Anyway, with all those guns I'm sure he planned on hunting. It's not like he honored life so much he wouldn't shoot something.
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 1, 2012 Posted May 1, 2012 ...I'm sure he planned on... I'm just going to through out that that this guy didn't seem to really have a end plan but rather just liked to play fort in the woods. I would have loved to see his face when he realized that they found him so quickly...
+Lightning Jeff Posted May 3, 2012 Posted May 3, 2012 So, would it be in poor taste to see who can guess closest to the actual location of the bunker? (And, I'd assume, future cache location?) If not: http://maps.google.c...013883&t=h&z=17 If so: Well, nevermind.
+lamoracke Posted May 3, 2012 Posted May 3, 2012 (edited) no existing cache would block its placement if you found the magic spot and my math is right. I'd be interested in seeing the area out of curiosity and if there was a cache there, I'd look for it. Edited May 3, 2012 by lamoracke
+WeightMan Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 On Monday I was heading over the pass and there was a chopper with a line down to the ground. I assumed it was related to this, but the chopper was on the north side of I-90. That line from the chopper went into the trees, but I assume it went to the ground. Is it possible that they were trying to keep the location secret and showed a location on the wrong side of the freeway?
+Sol seaker Posted May 4, 2012 Author Posted May 4, 2012 (edited) On Monday I was heading over the pass and there was a chopper with a line down to the ground. I assumed it was related to this, but the chopper was on the north side of I-90. That line from the chopper went into the trees, but I assume it went to the ground. Is it possible that they were trying to keep the location secret and showed a location on the wrong side of the freeway? I don't think so. It is really possible that map is inaccurate to hide the actual location. It is from pretty far off, so it's not really specific as it is, so it wouldn't be hard to just slide the spot over a bit in any direction. The reason I don't think so is because 1. it makes more sense to have a bunker on the south side of the freeway. There are just more spots there to put it. more secure. 2. They closed off the Rattlesnake ridge trails. 3. They showed a picture of where the road was closed. I recognized it as the entrance to the trailhead on the west side of Rattlesnake Ridge. It was not a photo that would have been easily recognizable at all. They would not expect people to figure that out easily. It was mainly a close-up of the police cars. But it was on the South side of I-90/ 4. They showed the shot of the guns on the grass that looked like Snoqualmie Point Park. There would have been better spots to lay out the loot if it were on the North side. Once again, it's not a very clear picture of the area, and they wouldn't expect people to figure out the location from that shot. I might be wrong on the location on it even, but it sure looks like it. As I said, I think if anything, this latest map that I found would be off just a bit. I do think the bunker is on the south side. I don't know which side their house was on though, or if they would need a helicopter there at this point. I guess there are a lot of reasons to have a helicopter around. edit: Oh, you said Monday. Sorry, I'm pretty tired. I've got to head to bed. I would imagine it is possible that they had a staging area on that side of the freeway. They had to load the helicopter from somewhere nearby, and since they didn't know where the bunker was exactly they could have figured it was safe to load the helicopter over there. I don't know, I'm just guessing. There are a lot of possibilities though. Edited May 4, 2012 by Sol seaker
+WeightMan Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 On Monday I was heading over the pass and there was a chopper with a line down to the ground. I assumed it was related to this, but the chopper was on the north side of I-90. That line from the chopper went into the trees, but I assume it went to the ground. Is it possible that they were trying to keep the location secret and showed a location on the wrong side of the freeway? <snip> edit: Oh, you said Monday. Sorry, I'm pretty tired. I've got to head to bed. I would imagine it is possible that they had a staging area on that side of the freeway. They had to load the helicopter from somewhere nearby, and since they didn't know where the bunker was exactly they could have figured it was safe to load the helicopter over there. I don't know, I'm just guessing. There are a lot of possibilities though. That is probably the most likely explanation. The only problem would be moving a load across the freeway. I would think they would stage on the same side to eliminate the possibility of having to drop the load due to mechanical problems with the chopper. I'm pretty sure the first item on the checklist for a mechanical problem is to shed the external load.
+Sol seaker Posted May 4, 2012 Author Posted May 4, 2012 I would imagine the main thing they would have had to load would be people. Yes it would have been bad to drop one on the freeway. If they were still searching they would want an area far enough away to not raise suspicion with the guy in the bunker. I'm surprised it would be that close. I'm not checking the timeline though. They probably found him by then. Anyone have any ideas on the name for a possible cache at that location? Anyone want to go look this afternoon? Email me.
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 On Monday I was heading over the pass and there was a chopper with a line down to the ground. I assumed it was related to this, but the chopper was on the north side of I-90. That line from the chopper went into the trees, but I assume it went to the ground. Is it possible that they were trying to keep the location secret and showed a location on the wrong side of the freeway? <snip> edit: Oh, you said Monday. Sorry, I'm pretty tired. I've got to head to bed. I would imagine it is possible that they had a staging area on that side of the freeway. They had to load the helicopter from somewhere nearby, and since they didn't know where the bunker was exactly they could have figured it was safe to load the helicopter over there. I don't know, I'm just guessing. There are a lot of possibilities though. That is probably the most likely explanation. The only problem would be moving a load across the freeway. I would think they would stage on the same side to eliminate the possibility of having to drop the load due to mechanical problems with the chopper. I'm pretty sure the first item on the checklist for a mechanical problem is to shed the external load. I've been up the east side of the ridge a bunch of times so also recognize the area in the photos. I agree with both of you except that I think the map is pretty accurate; it would have been easy for anyone, including the media, to watch and see where the picks and drops were being made, and officials wouldn't be able to censor the press. Also, the location makes additional sense because it's in a valley where there would be stream (logical and noted in articles) and a buffer so his spot wouldn't be discovered by loggers or timber managers, or exposed during future logging. This video also reinforces the location. http://video.seattletimes.com/1611192114001 I noted that the detectives being dropped had no helmet or appeared to have no ear protection, both big no-nos. I'm guessing that was their first drop, perhaps they practiced it in a better location on the north side of the freeway. Though, Snoqualmie Park has plenty of room for that and for a spot to land as well.
+Sol seaker Posted May 4, 2012 Author Posted May 4, 2012 I said before, "if anything" the map is off a little, indicating I felt it was in that general area. It may well be accurate, but officials sensor the press all the time. I don't know why they would here though. It's not like its a top secret installation or anything.
+uxorious Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 it would have been easy for anyone, including the media, to watch and see where the picks and drops were being made, and officials wouldn't be able to censor the press. The press knows right where this thing was. They were given a tour through it after it was cleared. While I am sure they didn't want people to know where it was as they were investigating, I really doubt if it will be all that secret when they are done in the area.
+Lightning Jeff Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 This video also reinforces the location. http://video.seattle...m/1611192114001 Yup, there are some good clues in the video, although some of the cuts add some ambiguity. My reasoning for pinpointing the spot I did was: It's at about eye level or so with the powerlines, as depicted in the photo Keller took from the general area of the bunker. He could walk the service road up to the powerlines, as described in media reports (which suggested he could get some kind of trailer to within 200 yards of the bunker) - yet not have to spend a lot of time out in the open under the powerlines. The jumping-off point from the road into the woods is almost exactly one mile from the trailhead area, as described in media reports (describing the trackers walking the powerlines and catching a whiff of smoke about a mile from the trailhead). As _Shaddow_ mentions, this spot appears to be in a buffer that is never likely to be logged. It's also the steepest area that matches the other parameters. On the Bing Maps Bird's Eye view, you can see a culvert under the road, meaning there is some kind of creek here. I think you can even see a well-worn foot path crossing the road and heading up into the woods (perhaps when he only had the backpack, he preferred to stay off the roads as much as possible): And that trail is not in Northwest Trails - needs mapping! I noted that the detectives being dropped had no helmet or appeared to have no ear protection, both big no-nos. That surprised me too. I was also surprised they didn't edit out the footage panning around showing the deputies' faces. It's kind of an odd little video Anyway, I'm not sure why this is so fascinating to me. I have no desire to memorialize or celebrate Keller, and this spot probably isn't even a good place for a memorial to his victims. But it's interesting to think that this was out there for so long, apparently without being noticed, and without his activities - which had to have seemed odd to someone - being reported. It makes you wonder what else, and who else, is out there.
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 I said before, "if anything" the map is off a little, indicating I felt it was in that general area. As I said, I think if anything, this latest map that I found would be off just a bit. I do think the bunker is on the south side. Actually you said 'would be' and I took that to mean that it was done intentionally; that guess is backed by your belief that the press is censored all the time, though you do qualify that statement for these circumstances. Anyhow, I still see no reason why it wouldn't be accurate, if not very accurate, even if officials didn't supply details about the location, as anyone with eyes looking up at the ridge during helicopter operations could pinpoint it. It may well be accurate, but officials sensor the press all the time. riiiiight it would have been easy for anyone, including the media, to watch and see where the picks and drops were being made, and officials wouldn't be able to censor the press. The press knows right where this thing was. They were given a tour through it after it was cleared. While I am sure they didn't want people to know where it was as they were investigating, I really doubt if it will be all that secret when they are done in the area. I agree, especially since they are destroying it before reopening the area.
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 Anyway, I'm not sure why this is so fascinating to me. I have no desire to memorialize or celebrate Keller, and this spot probably isn't even a good place for a memorial to his victims. But it's interesting to think that this was out there for so long, apparently without being noticed, and without his activities - which had to have seemed odd to someone - being reported. It makes you wonder what else, and who else, is out there. I would say that it has little to do with this particular man, I think we could randomize his name and some of the details yet it would still be interesting. But even so, to me it would be an anti-memorize or anti-celebration as he was just a failure in many ways, like giving his position away so very easily to someone walking along the road in one of the most logical areas in miles. Like I said before I think he was just playing fort. He wasn't skilled, smart, or put much effort into the details. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with interest in the story or location. And to touch on the fear side of it, while I'm sure that there are a few more out there, this guy was for years without issue; it won't affect my off-trail adventures, except maybe it will be in my thinking that this is a possibility which will make me safer.
+Sol seaker Posted May 4, 2012 Author Posted May 4, 2012 This isn't the thread for discussing freedom of the press, vs the press slanting what they say, nor discussing who really has control over it. I'll just say, if you think you're hearing everything, then take a look at what's not granted through the "freedom of information act". Or take a look at the press overseas and see what a different take they have on things than we do, even when reporting the same issues. Or try listening to a far right media then a far left media. Wow. Mega difference. Anyway, to get back on topic, It does bother me to know there are more of these guys out there, but if I haven't run into any before now, I'm not likely to in the future. I find this very interesting too, and I don't know why. Perhaps just because it's so different it's curious, I don't know. What would make someone be so nuts like that? Perhaps some of it is the allure of a secret hiding place in the woods. Perhaps just the fact that this has been going on under our noses for so long while we have had no idea. Funny, in a way that is like caching. Many people find out this has been going on under their noses for so long. No, it's different. Lightening Jeff, Yes, I think you're right on with your location. I was pretty amazed to see the map from the press and yours. They are really close if not right on. I'll take your coords with me and let you know. I'm pretty impressed you got it so close. I was not even thinking in that area.
+JesandTodd Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 I would say that it has little to do with this particular man, I think we could randomize his name and some of the details yet it would still be interesting. But even so, to me it would be an anti-memorize or anti-celebration as he was just a failure in many ways, like giving his position away so very easily to someone walking along the road in one of the most logical areas in miles. Like I said before I think he was just playing fort. He wasn't skilled, smart, or put much effort into the details. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with interest in the story or location. And to touch on the fear side of it, while I'm sure that there are a few more out there, this guy was for years without issue; it won't affect my off-trail adventures, except maybe it will be in my thinking that this is a possibility which will make me safer. Actually, this guy sounds schizophrenic to me. I don't think he was playing. I think he was shocked he was found so quickly. He wasn't organized enough in his thoughts to forsee how his actions could lead people to his location. Even his arson attempt wasn't well thought out. I try to keep an eye out when hiking. I'm *still* nursing a strained hip ligament from the last time I hiked (ran) alone and was chased by a solo male hiker (2 months ago!). People like this living in the woods...I tell myself that sure, they are probably out there. Now I know they are. In my woods. And that's scary.
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 I would say that it has little to do with this particular man, I think we could randomize his name and some of the details yet it would still be interesting. But even so, to me it would be an anti-memorize or anti-celebration as he was just a failure in many ways, like giving his position away so very easily to someone walking along the road in one of the most logical areas in miles. Like I said before I think he was just playing fort. He wasn't skilled, smart, or put much effort into the details. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with interest in the story or location. And to touch on the fear side of it, while I'm sure that there are a few more out there, this guy was for years without issue; it won't affect my off-trail adventures, except maybe it will be in my thinking that this is a possibility which will make me safer. Actually, this guy sounds schizophrenic to me. I don't think he was playing. I think he was shocked he was found so quickly. He wasn't organized enough in his thoughts to forsee how his actions could lead people to his location. Even his arson attempt wasn't well thought out. That or his thinking just went down the wrong route and he didn't know how to, or couldn't correct it. More specifically about what I meant is not that he was wasn't serious about what he was doing, more that he wasn't a real or serious survivalist (the biggest failure being that a survivalist would give his life to protect his family - oh the irony that this self proclaimed survivalist's family didn't survive him). He was though definitely serious about playing fort and living out the fantasy. I hope he was shocked; a little bit of relative good in a whole lot of bad I would say that it has little to do with this particular man, I think we could randomize his name and some of the details yet it would still be interesting. But even so, to me it would be an anti-memorize or anti-celebration as he was just a failure in many ways, like giving his position away so very easily to someone walking along the road in one of the most logical areas in miles. Like I said before I think he was just playing fort. He wasn't skilled, smart, or put much effort into the details. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with interest in the story or location. And to touch on the fear side of it, while I'm sure that there are a few more out there, this guy was for years without issue; it won't affect my off-trail adventures, except maybe it will be in my thinking that this is a possibility which will make me safer. I try to keep an eye out when hiking. I'm *still* nursing a strained hip ligament from the last time I hiked (ran) alone and was chased by a solo male hiker (2 months ago!). People like this living in the woods...I tell myself that sure, they are probably out there. Now I know they are. In my woods. And that's scary. That would be scary what happened and also thinking that it might happen again. And living in fear is not living well. The scare and fear is there to protect us; take it as a sign and motovation to become empowered to deal appropriately with the situation and reasonable possibilities, then let it go.
+Lightning Jeff Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 Anyway, to get back on topic, It does bother me to know there are more of these guys out there, but if I haven't run into any before now, I'm not likely to in the future. We all have to make our own judgments about how much risk we're willing to take on. I think those of us who like to cache in the lesser-traveled areas expose ourselves to somewhat more risk. Who knows what you'll find when you start exploring the stomping ground of the paranoid and criminal. I try to be deliberate about it; I've decided on the measures I'll take when I'm in such places to give myself a fighting chance if I do run into someone who has decided I should pay for some issue in his life. I don't think he was playing. I think he was shocked he was found so quickly. He wasn't organized enough in his thoughts to forsee how his actions could lead people to his location. I agree, to an extent. There was some thought put into the location of the bunker, apparently - though it was probably also delusional to think it wouldn't eventually be found, and quickly if he was being sought. While he may not have been intent on hunting anyone down, I have little doubt that if anyone stumbled onto his bunker while he was there - before or after he killed his family - he would have tried and probably succeeded at killing the unlucky hiker/cacher. I try to keep an eye out when hiking. I'm *still* nursing a strained hip ligament from the last time I hiked (ran) alone and was chased by a solo male hiker (2 months ago!). People like this living in the woods...I tell myself that sure, they are probably out there. Now I know they are. In my woods. And that's scary. That's scary. I don't think I could outrun anyone. "They" are definitely out there. But you don't have to be defenseless. There are any number of ways to give yourself a fighting chance. Innocent people should not have to run in fear when trying to enjoy the woods. And innocent people who go out in the woods with no plan would, I hope, at least do so knowing that's what they're doing. I mean no criticism - just a plug in favor of being mindful of small risks that can have enormous consequences.
+JesandTodd Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 I didn't out run him. He caught up with me even though I had a few hundred feet head start. Strange story, but we had a standoff and I think it was my unruly dog (who I allowed to become unruly) and my pepper spray that I had a good grip on. and my stance, voice and all that stuff. Adrenalin. I think he was a beginner. Anyhow. Now I'll add hidden bunkers to list of "things I scan the forest for while hiking". Makes me wonder how many people are living out there in our woods..
+B+L Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 (edited) Strange story, but we had a standoff and I think it was my unruly dog (who I allowed to become unruly) and my pepper spray that I had a good grip on. and my stance, voice and all that stuff. Adrenalin. I think he was a beginner. Anyhow. Now I'll add hidden bunkers to list of "things I scan the forest for while hiking". Makes me wonder how many people are living out there in our woods.. Sounds like you handled a really creepy situation really well. Unless that guy was speech impaired, his behavior was very discomforting. You know how you see all those cross-trails when you are out hiking, the kind that looks well used for an animal trail, and you think, "I wonder where that goes?" Bunker. Can't stop thinking that. Bunker has bumped Meth lab from the top spot. Oh yeah, and "Deliverance" is up near the top of the rankings too. Edited May 4, 2012 by B+L
+Sol seaker Posted May 4, 2012 Author Posted May 4, 2012 Jesandtodd, what trail were you on when you had the encounter with that guy? It's good for us to know. Did you report it to the police?
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