Traditional Letterbox

[+Pax Tecum]

What makes a letterbox a traditional letterbox? Is it as simple as placing a personal hand carved stamp with a logbook and not giving specific coordinates? I ask because I read just yesterday a user on these forums saying that simply placing a stamp with a logbook in a container should be not classified as a letterbox. Your thoughts?

[+Max and 99]

What makes a letterbox a traditional letterbox? Is it as simple as placing a personal hand carved stamp with a logbook and not giving specific coordinates? I ask because I read just yesterday a user on these forums saying that simply placing a stamp with a logbook in a container should be not classified as a letterbox. Your thoughts?

 

A traditional letterbox does not use coordinates, but rather states directions to find the container (which always contains a stamp and log book). Traditional letterboxes (without coordinates) can be found on one of several listing sites.

 

A letterbox hybrid, listed on GC.com, needs to use GPS coordinates as an integral part of the listing.

 

Is that what you are asking?

[+L0ne.R]

What makes a letterbox a traditional letterbox? Is it as simple as placing a personal hand carved stamp with a logbook and not giving specific coordinates? I ask because I read just yesterday a user on these forums saying that simply placing a stamp with a logbook in a container should be not classified as a letterbox. Your thoughts?

 

Most people mean an 'off-set' when they say "traditional" letterbox. The posted coordinates take you to a starting point and then you have to read the description to get instructions which you follow to get to the box's location.

 

It's traditional because letterbox's started before GPS units were available for commercial use, so people used compasses and grid references.

 

During these post-commercial-GPS times there's nothing to preclude anyone from hiding a letterbox and providing latitude/longitude coordinates instead of directions. You could even post it on the letterboxing websites with only the lat/long as the clue to the location. The distinguishing feature about a letterbox is the stamp, traditionally a unique stamp (custom-made or hand-carved) that is tied to the theme or location of the box, as proof in your logbook that you found that particular box.

[Keystone]

The sole distinguishing feature of the letterbox hybrid cache type is the presence of a letterboxing stamp that stays with the cache. The cache type alerts finders to this distinction. If attributes had been around ten years ago, "has a letterboxing stamp" would be an attribute and we wouldn't have this cache type.

 

As it is, though, you can hide a traditional letterbox hybrid, a multicache letterbox hybrid, a puzzle letterbox hybrid and probably a few others. Regardless of the design, GPS use must be included at some stage of the hunt in a meaningful way.

[Mr.Yuck]

What makes a letterbox a traditional letterbox? Is it as simple as placing a personal hand carved stamp with a logbook and not giving specific coordinates? I ask because I read just yesterday a user on these forums saying that simply placing a stamp with a logbook in a container should be not classified as a letterbox. Your thoughts?

 

Well then, the dozens of people in New York who have thrown a store bought stamp into a traditional cache with spot-on listed coordinates, just so they could call it a Letterbox Hybrid and get an icon in their hide stats will be disappointed then. I must admit though, I haven't seen a cache such as I describe published in a couple years, maybe they're tightening up on that?

 

I have never known the stamp being hand-carved to be a requirement, and doubt that it is a requirement. I myself will be interested in the responses to this thread. Especially if some reviewer types chime in.

 

EDIT: Whoops. The "reviewer type" chimed in one minute before me, before I hit "enter". In my opinion, his main point is the GPS must be used in some meaningful way. I will go ahead and assume John or Jane Doe cacher throwing a 99 cent Wal-Mart purchased stamp into a cache that is at the listed coordinates and calling it a letterbox hybrid just for the heck of it, doesn't happen any more.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Mr.Yuck

[+ohmelli]

Actually... the tradition of Letterboxing (as it's called) started before GPSr's were around (or available to the general public anyway) and the boxes were hidden and clues were given as to how to find them! They are still around today - but not nearly as popular as geocaching is. You can read all about them at http://www.letterboxing.org/ (don't know how to make that a link here) It does say that "traditionally" the stamp IS handmade or very unique so that having that stamp is PROOF that you did find that box. Interesting stuff!

 

Oh cool! It made itself a link!

Edited April 27, 2012 by ohmelli

[Keystone]

I will go ahead and assume John or Jane Doe cacher throwing a 99 cent Wal-Mart purchased stamp into a cache that is at the listed coordinates and calling it a letterbox hybrid just for the heck of it, doesn't happen any more.

It may not happen any more as a factual matter, but if somebody used a 99 cent store-bought stamp, and said to me "yes the container has a letterboxing stamp," I'd publish right away. There is no "wow factor" test for stamp awesomeness.

[Pup Patrol]

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=308

 

2.2. Additional Listing Guidelines that Apply to Specific Geocache Types

 

This page is an extension of our Geocache Listing Requirements / Guidelines.

 

[updated 4/23/2012]

 

3. Letterbox Hybrids

 

This cache type pays homage to an older form of scavenger hunt. A Letterbox Hybrid must include significant GPS usage for at least part of the hunt. Letterbox-style clues may be used to guide seekers to the container, but only if the clues are accompanied by coordinates specific to the hide. The container for a Letterbox Hybrid must include a stamp, which stays with the geocache and may be used by letter-boxers to stamp their personal letter-boxing book. The cache can be logged without using the stamp.

 

 

 

B.

[Mr.Yuck]

I will go ahead and assume John or Jane Doe cacher throwing a 99 cent Wal-Mart purchased stamp into a cache that is at the listed coordinates and calling it a letterbox hybrid just for the heck of it, doesn't happen any more.

It may not happen any more as a factual matter, but if somebody used a 99 cent store-bought stamp, and said to me "yes the container has a letterboxing stamp," I'd publish right away. There is no "wow factor" test for stamp awesomeness.

 

So let me get this straight. Someone could still put out what is in essence a traditional cache at the posted coordinates, say that it has a stamp in it, and call it a letterbox hybrid? I have personally not seen this in years, just no one bothers any more?

[+ohmelli]

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=308

 

2.2. Additional Listing Guidelines that Apply to Specific Geocache Types

 

This page is an extension of our Geocache Listing Requirements / Guidelines.

 

[updated 4/23/2012]

 

3. Letterbox Hybrids

 

This cache type pays homage to an older form of scavenger hunt. A Letterbox Hybrid must include significant GPS usage for at least part of the hunt. Letterbox-style clues may be used to guide seekers to the container, but only if the clues are accompanied by coordinates specific to the hide. The container for a Letterbox Hybrid must include a stamp, which stays with the geocache and may be used by letter-boxers to stamp their personal letter-boxing book. The cache can be logged without using the stamp.

 

B.

 

*HIGH 5's PP!* .... or should that be "JINX!" ???

[+Mushroom finder]

That's interesting, I always thought a Letterbox hybrid was a letterbox (actually listed on one or more of the letterboxing sites with the traditional means of finding) that was also listed as a geocache on GC.com. Seems to me that a geocache with a stamp in it (listed only here) is nothing more than a geocache with a stamp in it, and not a letterbox or hybrid at all.

[+The A-Team]

So let me get this straight. Someone could still put out what is in essence a traditional cache at the posted coordinates, say that it has a stamp in it, and call it a letterbox hybrid?

According to the guideline posted by Pup Patrol, yes, which is unfortunate. I think Mushroom finder is correct that the concept of LBHs is that it should be listed on both, but since the guidelines don't require this, we get hiders that just don't care and only want to hide it for the icon. If I ever hide an LBH, I'll certainly be cross-listing it also on a letterboxing site.

[+Max and 99]

I am a letterboxer, and about a year ago placed a letterbox hybrid. I certainly didn't read any GC requirement that the stamp had to be hand-carved, so I chose a stamp I really liked. So far everyone that has logged a find on that cache HAS stamped my book with their own stamp. It's one of my favorite caches, at a really nice location overlooking a lake, and I enjoy seeing what others have stamped in the book (which is in the spirit of letterboxing).

[+Too Tall John]

That's interesting, I always thought a Letterbox hybrid was a letterbox (actually listed on one or more of the letterboxing sites with the traditional means of finding) that was also listed as a geocache on GC.com. Seems to me that a geocache with a stamp in it (listed only here) is nothing more than a geocache with a stamp in it, and not a letterbox or hybrid at all.

According to the LetterBoxers of North America Website

Beyond that, getting clues themselves can be part of the game. Sometimes clues are learned of only via word of mouth, and I know of cases where one of the "goodies" in a letterbox is a clue to another letterbox, unavailable elsewhere! Box hiders have no doubt come up with clever ways to transmit their clues beyond the simple publishing of them on the Internet, although at least in the US, that vast percentage of boxes have their clues published on the LbNA web site. Other sites may also publish some clues and sometimes clues are found at local outdoor retailers and clubs, such as Eastern Mountain Sports.

If EMS can be seen as a legit LB listing entity, why cant GC.com?

 

Perhaps more importantly, according to the LBNA Website

Often the clues involve map coordinates or compass bearings from landmarks, but they don't have to.

Coordinates? Ooh... Sounds like you can use a GPS to find some letterboxes...

[Pup Patrol]

I am a letterboxer, and about a year ago placed a letterbox hybrid. I certainly didn't read any GC requirement that the stamp had to be hand-carved, so I chose a stamp I really liked. So far everyone that has logged a find on that cache HAS stamped my book with their own stamp. It's one of my favorite caches, at a really nice location overlooking a lake, and I enjoy seeing what others have stamped in the book (which is in the spirit of letterboxing).

 

Not even on the Letterboxing site is a hand-carved stamp a requirement. Or even "strongly suggested".

 

 

B.

[+redsox_mark]

So let me get this straight. Someone could still put out what is in essence a traditional cache at the posted coordinates, say that it has a stamp in it, and call it a letterbox hybrid? I have personally not seen this in years, just no one bothers any more?

 

I found one like this just the other day.

[Mr.Yuck]

So let me get this straight. Someone could still put out what is in essence a traditional cache at the posted coordinates, say that it has a stamp in it, and call it a letterbox hybrid? I have personally not seen this in years, just no one bothers any more?

 

I found one like this just the other day.

 

I've found many. But they were all placed in like 2005. I seriously thought they tightened up, and didn't allow that any more. The last one I can remember seeing is about 3 years old, and was placed by a guy who started in 2004. I suppose as micros continue to increase in frequency, the number of people who say "hey, I'm going to hide this full-sized traditional in the woods, drop a stamp in it and call it an LB Hybrid" goes down.

 

EDIT: Never mind. I figured I'd look at my own stats, and I found someone's tribute Golden ammo can that has the LB Hybrid desigation, that is just under a year old. Hmm, didn't even realize it was an LB Hybrid.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Mr.Yuck

[Mr.Yuck]

I am a letterboxer, and about a year ago placed a letterbox hybrid. I certainly didn't read any GC requirement that the stamp had to be hand-carved, so I chose a stamp I really liked. So far everyone that has logged a find on that cache HAS stamped my book with their own stamp. It's one of my favorite caches, at a really nice location overlooking a lake, and I enjoy seeing what others have stamped in the book (which is in the spirit of letterboxing).

 

Not even on the Letterboxing site is a hand-carved stamp a requirement. Or even "strongly suggested".

 

 

B.

 

Yeah, Atlas Quest even has attribute icons for hand carved or store bought stamps. There's a series of 12 in my area that have nice, but store bought stamps in them. I've found 2 or 3. I'm not involved enough in the local Letterboxing community though, maybe they're all bashing them behind their backs.

[+L0ne.R]

I am a letterboxer, and about a year ago placed a letterbox hybrid. I certainly didn't read any GC requirement that the stamp had to be hand-carved, so I chose a stamp I really liked. So far everyone that has logged a find on that cache HAS stamped my book with their own stamp. It's one of my favorite caches, at a really nice location overlooking a lake, and I enjoy seeing what others have stamped in the book (which is in the spirit of letterboxing).

 

Not even on the Letterboxing site is a hand-carved stamp a requirement. Or even "strongly suggested".

 

Not a requirement, just preferred. Reading the AQ forums I would say that it is strongly suggested. Many people will skip letterboxes that indicate there's a commercial stamp in the box. Hand-carved and custom-made (original design) makes the box a one-of-a-kind experience.

Edited April 27, 2012 by L0ne R

[+ohmelli]

I am a letterboxer, and about a year ago placed a letterbox hybrid. I certainly didn't read any GC requirement that the stamp had to be hand-carved, so I chose a stamp I really liked. So far everyone that has logged a find on that cache HAS stamped my book with their own stamp. It's one of my favorite caches, at a really nice location overlooking a lake, and I enjoy seeing what others have stamped in the book (which is in the spirit of letterboxing).

 

Not even on the Letterboxing site is a hand-carved stamp a requirement. Or even "strongly suggested".

 

Not a requirement, just preferred. Reading the AQ forums I would say that it is strongly suggested. Many people will skip letterboxes that indicate there's a commercial stamp in the box. Hand-carved and custom-made (original design) makes the box a one-of-a-kind experience.

 

The site just says that "traditionally" hand carved stamps are used. It's not mandatory. Probably so Letterboxers can have something to nit-pic over as much as geocachers do!!! :laughing:

[+Pax Tecum]

What makes a letterbox a traditional letterbox? Is it as simple as placing a personal hand carved stamp with a logbook and not giving specific coordinates? I ask because I read just yesterday a user on these forums saying that simply placing a stamp with a logbook in a container should be not classified as a letterbox. Your thoughts?

 

A traditional letterbox does not use coordinates, but rather states directions to find the container (which always contains a stamp and log book). Traditional letterboxes (without coordinates) can be found on one of several listing sites.

 

A letterbox hybrid, listed on GC.com, needs to use GPS coordinates as an integral part of the listing.

 

Is that what you are asking?

 

This is exactly what I was asking. Thank you.

[+Pax Tecum]

The sole distinguishing feature of the letterbox hybrid cache type is the presence of a letterboxing stamp that stays with the cache. The cache type alerts finders to this distinction. If attributes had been around ten years ago, "has a letterboxing stamp" would be an attribute and we wouldn't have this cache type.

 

As it is, though, you can hide a traditional letterbox hybrid, a multicache letterbox hybrid, a puzzle letterbox hybrid and probably a few others. Regardless of the design, GPS use must be included at some stage of the hunt in a meaningful way.

 

Ah, Ok. I understand now. Thanks for the explanation.

[Mr.Yuck]

I am a letterboxer, and about a year ago placed a letterbox hybrid. I certainly didn't read any GC requirement that the stamp had to be hand-carved, so I chose a stamp I really liked. So far everyone that has logged a find on that cache HAS stamped my book with their own stamp. It's one of my favorite caches, at a really nice location overlooking a lake, and I enjoy seeing what others have stamped in the book (which is in the spirit of letterboxing).

 

Not even on the Letterboxing site is a hand-carved stamp a requirement. Or even "strongly suggested".

 

Not a requirement, just preferred. Reading the AQ forums I would say that it is strongly suggested. Many people will skip letterboxes that indicate there's a commercial stamp in the box. Hand-carved and custom-made (original design) makes the box a one-of-a-kind experience.

 

The site just says that "traditionally" hand carved stamps are used. It's not mandatory. Probably so Letterboxers can have something to nit-pic over as much as geocachers do!!! :laughing:

 

Actually, for a lot of them, their nitpicking has to do with how much they despise geocaching and geocachers.

[+ohmelli]

I am a letterboxer, and about a year ago placed a letterbox hybrid. I certainly didn't read any GC requirement that the stamp had to be hand-carved, so I chose a stamp I really liked. So far everyone that has logged a find on that cache HAS stamped my book with their own stamp. It's one of my favorite caches, at a really nice location overlooking a lake, and I enjoy seeing what others have stamped in the book (which is in the spirit of letterboxing).

 

Not even on the Letterboxing site is a hand-carved stamp a requirement. Or even "strongly suggested".

 

Not a requirement, just preferred. Reading the AQ forums I would say that it is strongly suggested. Many people will skip letterboxes that indicate there's a commercial stamp in the box. Hand-carved and custom-made (original design) makes the box a one-of-a-kind experience.

 

The site just says that "traditionally" hand carved stamps are used. It's not mandatory. Probably so Letterboxers can have something to nit-pic over as much as geocachers do!!! :laughing:

 

Actually, for a lot of them, their nitpicking has to do with how much they despise geocaching and geocachers.

 

Now isn't that just SILLY??? WE're all such niiiiiiiiiiice people! Some people just love to be haters...

[+Too Tall John]

Actually, for a lot of them, their nitpicking has to do with how much they despise geocaching and geocachers.

Now isn't that just SILLY??? WE're all such niiiiiiiiiiice people! Some people just love to be haters...

Actually, this log...

I'm sorry, but geocaching.com is not the authority on what is or is not a letterbox. I just think people here should know that. If it cannot be found without a GPSr, it's not a letterbox, and putting a stamp in the cache doesn't make it one. Tigquilt, I'm sure your series is appreciated by geocachers, but it does nothing for letterboxers -- they don't know it exists. Might as well have just left the stamp out and called it a regular geocache.

...led to quite a discussion on the Atlas Quest forums. I got quite a few very nice responses from LBers who read the thread. There are some who are quite snobbish and give the rest a bad name. Just like there are some cachers who go and trade out the LB Stamps who give the rest of us a bad name.

[+ohmelli]

I'm sure that IS true. I knew the minute I read the Letterbox site that what geocachers call letterboxes are NOT what letterboxers call a letterbox. But they COULD be... if they were listed on a letterbox site and given proper clues to finding them. Letterboxing sounds quite fun ALSO... as in "in addition to" geocaching! People just like to quibble... about ANYthing!

[+geocat_]

How ironic that I just had my first and only Letterbox Hybrid published a couple days ago. http://coord.info/GC3HVXP I have only seen a handful of what I always thought of as "real" LBHs because most I have found were just traditionals with stamps inside. I have found a few which used clues which I thought was quite enjoyable. That is why I chose to do it that way although it does not appear to be mandatory. I wonder if they will eventually get rid of them the same as Virtuals???

[+redsox_mark]

I wonder if they will eventually get rid of them the same as Virtuals???

 

I don't think so. At least not for the same reason.

Virtuals are different; there is no container. In the past there was an attempt to control their spread with a "wow factor" test which proved unmanageable, so they were stopped.

 

Letterbox hybrids have a container, and I don't see any problem with them as defined - which is that they just need a stamp in the cache.

[+geodarts]

Actually, for a lot of them, their nitpicking has to do with how much they despise geocaching and geocachers.

 

There is a lot of history there, as well as problems that have risen when boxes have been placed near each other and cachers have interpreted the letterbox as a geocache. But I also have had letterboxers thank me for doing my cross-listed caches "right" by their standards.

 

I admit that I do not hand carve stamps, although I purchase custom made stamps that fit the theme of the letterbox hybrid cache. I also provide separate stash sheets explaining the respective games and include a book for letterbox stamps that is distinct from the caching log. I try to make sure that the experience will be similar for those who are letterboxing as it is for those who are geocaching.

 

With that said, a store bought stamp placed in a cache will qualify it as a letterbox hybrid for listing on this site, just as a film can placed in a lamp post in a parking lot will qualify as a traditional. But there is so much more that can be done with both forms of caches.

Edited April 30, 2012 by geodarts

[+L0ne.R]

I wonder if they will eventually get rid of them the same as Virtuals???

 

If they got rid of the cache type and provided a "stamp-in-the-box" attribute that might solve some problems.

1. It would be less confusing for many finders who assume that all LBHs are traditional cache types and are at the posted coords.
2. It would mean people couldn't plant LBHs for the sole purpose of getting the letterbox cache-type in their inventory of hides. That is, with no regard for the stamp. Just some random stamp at the bottom of the toybox they grabbed and threw in the box.
3. There would be fewer people planting letterboxes because they want to use directions in their clues, not realizing that that's already covered under the Mystery/Puzzle cache or Multicache types.
4. Some owners of letterboxes will not replace a stamp that goes missing but will continue to keep the LBH active. Once the stamp goes missing, by definition, it's no longer a letterbox and should be disabled until a replacement stamp is added or archived.

There are a couple of good reasons to keep them as a cache type - you can set a PQ for letterboxes. You can search for them using the Advanced Search form.