Forum is now slow, if you use Netscape

1.3k · March 28, 2003

Hi!

Somehow this system is now much slower than earlier, if i use Netscape 7.02.

With Mickymousesoft IE 6.0 this works fast, possibly faster than earlier.

Earlier the speed was same with both browsers, so i think that the overall result is that this system is worse now.

[This message was edited by Captain_Morgan&Family on March 28, 2003 at 05:19 AM.]

38.2k · March 28, 2003

I'm using Netscape 7.0 and haven't noticed a difference.

"An appeaser is one who keeps feeding a crocodile-hoping it will eat him last" -Winston Churchill

March 28, 2003

According to TheCounter.com only 1% of all of the hits that they get on the websites registered with them use Netscape. As a designer, you try to accommidate as many as possible. 1% is a lot of people, but overall if there are bigger problems then you attack those first.

kc

row, row, row your boat

6.4k · March 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Tubby Rower:
According to http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2003/March/browser.php only 1% of all of the hits that they get on the websites registered with them use Netscape. As a designer, you try to accommidate as many as possible. 1% is a lot of people, but overall if there are bigger problems then you attack those first.

kc

row, row, row your boat

Well, this 1% is using unbloated NS 4.8, and the interesting here isnt the speed, its the interface, or lack of it.

Hmmm, I don't know if this is good or bad, but under Netscape 4.8, everything still looks like the old forum. No new icons, Azog's dropdown menu is still here, no tabs, no java stuff.... Pretty much the only thing different is the geocaching icon is in the top right corner now.

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

6.4k · March 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Tubby Rower:
According to http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2003/March/browser.php only 1% of all of the hits that they get on the websites registered with them use Netscape. As a designer, you try to accommidate as many as possible. 1% is a lot of people, but overall if there are bigger problems then you attack those first.

Oh, And I might want to dispute those numbers of tubby's a bit. I just looked, and they have no place for NS7 at all. It shows all versions of IE to total 90% If thats the case here, you still alienate 3500 forum users.

I do some work on a website that gets alot of hits, mostly from people with higher then avg computer abilities. In other words, they aren't using AOL, and they might be using linux. They use NS and Opera alot. IE is only 75% of my hits. If thats the case here, then you are missing close to 10,000 of your users.

I guess we think a little different, Tubby. You design a website for the majority of your users. I design a website for ALL my users. It might not be as flashy, but I don't lose someone because the main page only loads in IE5 or higher.

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

March 28, 2003

<rant>

So before everybody starts female dogging about having to use IE because Netscape is slow or not rendering pages correctly think about it. How can you complain about IE when it is faster and works. Why don't you come up with your silly little pet names that degrade Netscape the way you do for IE? The fact is IE works and is faster, what does that tell you. Maybe the problem is that Netscape can't get their act together decide what they want to be, write real code that works well and follows standards. How stupid is to say that IE sucks but it is faster and works? You have two choices: Use IE or use Netscape and don't complain about it if it is a problem.

And yes a web site should design for the majority of its users. Just like any business does anything based on what its customers want, need and how they think. Should the rest of the world be held back because some people for whatever reason don't want to move forward. I try to keep my software up to date so I can take advantage of the latest and greatest. And if a page needs IE 5 or higher to load so what, that is because it is based on standards that are several years old at this point, which is decades in internet time. Just because you don't want to keep up to date don't force me to be held back.

Now where can I find a needle so I can play my 78's?

</rant>

5.7k · March 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by GrizzlyJohn:
You have two choices: Use IE or use Netscape and don't complain about it if it is a problem.

I use Safari, but then people have said that I'm a rebel without a clue...

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

6.4k · March 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by GrizzlyJohn:
<rant>

So before everybody starts female dogging about having to use IE because Netscape is slow or not rendering pages correctly think about it. How can you complain about IE when it is faster and works. Why don't you come up with your silly little pet names that degrade Netscape the way you do for IE? The fact is IE works and is faster, what does that tell you. Maybe the problem is that Netscape can't get their act together decide what they want to be, write real code that works well and follows standards. How stupid is to say that IE sucks but it is faster and works? You have two choices: Use IE or use Netscape and don't complain about it if it is a problem.

And yes a web site should design for the majority of its users. Just like any business does anything based on what its customers want, need and how they think. Should the rest of the world be held back because some people for whatever reason don't want to move forward. I try to keep my software up to date so I can take advantage of the latest and greatest. And if a page needs IE 5 or higher to load so what, that is because it is based on standards that are several years old at this point, which is decades in internet time. Just because you don't want to keep up to date don't force me to be held back.

Now where can I find a needle so I can play my 78's?

</rant>

John, I don't think you read me bashing IE anywhere in my posts. Let me explain my reasoning.

I use NS 4.8. I get a browser that conforms to all the STANDARDS set out for web design. I get a email program that is not effected by 9/10 viruses and trojans out there. I get a newsgroup reader (yea, usenet, 78rpm to you, I'm sure). I get a functional (even though i choose not to use it) webpage editor. All this in a package that takes up less then 1/4 of the HD space, RAM, and CPU resources of just IE6 alone. Forget about adding in Outlook, etc.

Designing a webpage for just one browser is just lazy and foolish. It's like making gasoline that only works in GM cars. Sure, GM would love that. They come out with a gasoline that only works in GM cars, costs the same as regular, and makes GM cars perform better then normal gas. Sounds great?

Soon, 75% of the gas stations only sell GM gas, so everyone buys GM cars to use the easy gas. Once Ford, Chrysler, Honda and Toyota are reduced to collector cars, GM can now do what they want. Jack the price of the car? Sure. Jack the price of gas? Sure. Start charging a "pump access fee"? Sure. Start charging for browsers? Start charging to use propriatary HTML tags? Start charging by number of pages browsed? Who's left to say no? I'm not as out of line here as you think, M$ is pushing hard toward "pay per use" apps.

The other fact, for whatever reason, still almost 1/3 of the visiters to some websites use a non-IE browser. If you are selling a product, do you really want to turn away 30% of your potential customers?

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

March 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mopar:
Well, this 1% is using unbloated NS 4.8, and the interesting here isnt the speed, its the interface, or lack of it.

Hmmm, I don't know if this is good or bad, but under Netscape 4.8, everything still looks like the old forum. No new icons, Azog's dropdown menu is still here, no tabs, no java stuff.... Pretty much the only thing different is the geocaching icon is in the top right corner now.

If the forums "think" that your browser can't support the new user interface, it falls back to the old one.

Elias

March 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mopar:
John, I don't think you read me bashing IE anywhere in my posts. Let me explain my reasoning.

Nope you didn't bash it, in fact, when I see anyone posting that they use Netscrape (oops, sorry ) they usually do and you have shown remarkable constraint!

I prefer the MS stuff but that's just me. We need other apps out there to keep them passably honest so I applaude the use of Netscape. And you are totally right in your compliency statements. We keep an old copy of netscape around just to make sure our webpages comply to the HTML 4.01 transitional standard.

And I like using an entirely different scaled down POP email program (outlook Express) for my newsreader! (hehehehehe, ok you got me, I'm totally lying. .. maybe Bill will include that in some future version <grumble&gt.)

Heck, I still remember using mosaic<grin>..

March 28, 2003

quote:
John, I don't think you read me bashing IE anywhere in my posts.

I did not say any names, it really was a general statement. I see this happen all the time where people (again, not any particular person) bash IE while saying something works in IE but not Netscape.

quote:
I use NS 4.8. I get a browser that conforms to all the STANDARDS set out for web design.

You are correct it does conform to standards but there are more current standards that exist, that is what is causing the problems. Because those newer standards address many many issues about design, text placement, layout and the functions of that.

quote:
All this in a package that takes up less then 1/4 of the HD space, RAM, and CPU resources of just IE6 alone.

Ok the Ford Pinto will cost less, use less gas, get into a smaller parking space, etc. than the Porsche. But they are both cars when I am making that choice I have to understand the pros and cons of each and make a decision based on that. If I choose the Pinto, it would then be silly for me to complain that I can't drive 120 mph on the highway.

quote:
Designing a webpage for just one browser is just lazy and foolish. It's like making gasoline that only works in GM cars. ...

I would agree about being lazy and foolish but I don't think your point here is germaine. The real point is designing a webpage for the most CURRENT standards. Which is what IE does. Gasoline is a kind of standard but it comes in different octanes. Some of which will work better in your car and some of which may work not so well. Maybe even different brands of gasoline will work differently in your car. Who knows? But the standards are there for everybody to use as they wish or don't wish. No browser has to support any of the tags that are there but as a user you get to decide how important it is to you that they support certain ones. The standards are free for anybody to use. And Netscape in the past has chosen to lag behind in supporting the most current versions of those standards. How much leaded gasoline is being sold today?

quote:
Jack the price of the car? ... Jack the price of gas? ... Start charging a "pump access fee"? ... Start charging for browsers? Start charging to use propriatary HTML tags? Start charging by number of pages browsed? ... I'm not as out of line here as you think, M$ is pushing hard toward "pay per use" apps.

Let me see, out of IE and Netscape how many have charged for their browsers. That would be 1 and that would be Netscape. There has never been a charge for IE. Microsoft has stated many many times that IE has always been free and always will be free. Net$cape can't make that same claim. They tried to sell it, nobody was buying it, so they had the U.S. Justice department do what they could not do in a free marketplace. Proprietary browser specific HTML tags are out there right now for both IE and Netscape. Nobody has to use them and my guess is that most people don't. I think that would be foolish except in certain intranet situations.

quote:
If you are selling a product, do you really want to turn away 30% of your potential customers?

I think that is up to the individual that is selling the product. They have to decide what is keeping the customer coming back to their site. Is it being able to use a technology that is several years old or is it having the ability to navigate and use a site that is fresh, attractive, up to date, innovative. As a consumer I would go to a site that was using the newer technology just because I think I would feel they are more up on things and are using the latest and greatest to keep prices low and delivery me a quality product quickly. That may not always be the case but that is how I would see it.

I have cut out some of your statements I hope you don't feel I have taken anything out of context. That was not what I wanted to do. I think your points are fine for you and you certainly deserve to be able to air them. I happen to not agree. But I enjoy the give and take and maybe you will be able to sway some people over to your side and maybe I will be able to do the same.

March 28, 2003

Holy cow...I didn't mean to start all of this. I was just making a comment.

By the way, I do program my website so that it can be viewed and used by other browsers. I was just making the comment that if there are problems that everyone is having, THOSE are more important than problems that only 1% of the users are having. But the situation might be where that 1% does 99% of your business. Then the situation would be reversed. IMHO.

kc

row, row, row your boat

March 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Tubby Rower:
Holy cow...I didn't mean to start all of this. I was just making a comment.

I think for some people you can say something bad about their spouse or kids before saying something bad about the browser they like best. Because of work I probably see my browser more than I see my SO.

March 28, 2003

FWIW, loading the forums using IE on the Mac was insanely slow last night. I loaded up three pages and they took nearly 30 seconds per page. Using IE on the PC today, they seem pretty fast. (Yeah, I know, there just as few Mac users as NS7 users.) I'm gonna try loading the forum on my phone.

March 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Tubby Rower:
I was just making the comment that if there are problems that everyone is having, THOSE are more important than problems that only 1% of the users are having.

I think I disagree with this statement. If the problems that the 99% are having are minor display issues, and the problem that the 1% are having prevent usage of the site altogether, I think the 1% problem is more important.

March 28, 2003

Yeah, the forums now take forever to load on my phone, as well.

March 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by kablooey:
...If the problems that the 99% are having are minor display issues, and the problem that the 1% are having prevent usage of the site altogether, I think the 1% problem is more important.

I sit corrected.

9.1k · March 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by GrizzlyJohn:
I probably see my browser more than I see my SO.

::: Sigh ::: Some of us have to GO to our browser to see our significant other!

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

I was formerly employed by the Department of Redundancy Department, but I don't work there anymore.

March 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by kablooey:
FWIW, loading the forums using IE on the Mac was insanely slow last night.

Is it possible you were using the forums while some of this switch was taking place? I don't know I am just guessing.

3.8k · March 28, 2003

I'm using Netscape 4.79 and evrything is about the same interface and speed wise. Had a look at the new layout with Mozilla and I'll stick with the old one as long as it works.

PDOP's GPS Pages

March 29, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Elias:
If the forums "think" that your browser can't support the new user interface, it falls back to the old one.

What user agent string do we use to pull this off?

Ricky's Geocaching Page

March 30, 2003

I'm using IE 6, and the site has been slow since the change.

Also, some of my buttons don't work anymore. Not sure why. For example, I can't "reply", but I can "quick reply".

George

March 31, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by arcadesdude:
What user agent string do we use to pull this off?

I honestly don't know, but I suspect from the observations of others that the forums look for a version 5 or greater browser to display the new user interface.

Elias

March 31, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Marky:
I use Safari...

I'm the OTHER OSX/Safari user out here and I'm suprised how well it handles the layers and popups. The speed seems the same as OSX/IE6, but Safari *seems* much more stable. (I'm running Beta v62 w/ tabs)

2¢

Don't ask me. I'm not from around here...

Forum is now slow, if you use Netscape

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