NO TRESPASSING WITH OUT PERMISSION

[+rockandroll_acdc]

OK i have one for you all. Let's say you geocaching and run across a cache that's on private propriety. There's sign's that litter the side of the road saying "No trespassing with out permission" for 1/4 of a mile. The cache owner doesn't say they have permission. Would you trespass to get the cache or would you obey the law? Wait, theirs people already entering the land to get ot the beach. Would then go? Some frendly guy tells you "you can go on to the land, they will not do anything" Would you go? interested to see people thoughts on this....

[+Keelmann And Cici]

Nope, I wouldn't. I see private property, and no express permission granted, I leave it alone.

[+6NoisyHikers]

If it is clearly marked, no way. I've stumbled on private property accidentally and nearly got hit with a rock!

 

On the other hand, I went to get permission to place a cache recently and found out that a series of well-established trails along our local river is actually on a huge area of long-held private land. I didn't place the cache but we still (along with everybody else in the community) hike the trails. There is no signage and there are several caches along the way. The trails are marked on the open street maps. I'd bet that most people who hike there have no idea it is private land - I only know because I went to city hall and found out.

[+Max and 99]

OK i have one for you all. Let's say you geocaching and run across a cache that's on private propriety. There's sign's that litter the side of the road saying "No trespassing with out permission" for 1/4 of a mile. The cache owner doesn't say they have permission. Would you trespass to get the cache or would you obey the law? Wait, theirs people already entering the land to get ot the beach. Would then go? Some frendly guy tells you "you can go on to the land, they will not do anything" Would you go? interested to see people thoughts on this....

 

I most definitely would NOT go!

[+NYPaddleCacher]

OK i have one for you all. Let's say you geocaching and run across a cache that's on private propriety. There's sign's that litter the side of the road saying "No trespassing with out permission" for 1/4 of a mile. The cache owner doesn't say they have permission. Would you trespass to get the cache or would you obey the law? Wait, theirs people already entering the land to get ot the beach. Would then go? Some frendly guy tells you "you can go on to the land, they will not do anything" Would you go? interested to see people thoughts on this....

 

Perhaps another question, since there are a few people that work in law enforcement that participate in the forums, would be to ask them if they'd arrest someone for trespassing if they saw them walk right past a Not Trespassing sign. Trespassing, in most places, is considered a misdemeanor. If you're caught and convicted for trespassing, for the rest of your life you're going have to answer "yes" to the "Have you ever been convicted of a crime?" question that appears on most job application forms. Seems to me that the potential consequences of going after that cache significantly outweigh the benefits of incrementing ones find count by one. Not only would I not enter the area behind a no trespassing sign to find a cache, I'd post a "need maintenance" describing what I found. There *have* been scenarios where an area was posted no trespassing *after* a cache was placed.

[+sixsix210]

I won't even do the ones that say they have permission. Just something oogy about tromping around in a stranger's lawn.... Just me.

[+DragonsWest]

Trespassing with permission, that's an interestong poser.

 

I generally drive or walk past. There have been occasions where hiders have completely got it wrong and in their unbridled enthusiasm for a hide have tucked a cache away where it could lead to some serious friction and possible harm to geocachers. If the cache page does not expressly state there is permission granted to trod upon the soil of the land in question, I'd leave it and possibly post an NA.

 

When in residential neighborhoods, I really like it to be very clear the house number I should be looking for or feature on the property (i.e. It is near the big wooden bear) which leaves no doubt. I feel uneasy about going up and down a residential street looking for a cache.

[+ShaunEM]

All Signs point to No.

 

Shaun

[+StarBrand]

I wouldn't risk it to find a cache.

[+lamoracke]

just had a cache with said placed with permission. The business had a no trespassing sign but that was clearly where the cache was, or so I thought. I did go for it since the CO said with permission and it was not far in their driveway. Business was closed as it was on a Sunday and saw no one around. Before going, I checked the logs and it implied others went there so I did. Upon searching for a while, I found it on the other side of the fence but could easily reach it from underneath. So, permission from which business I wonder? The one you walked on or the one you had to reach under the fence from? Sure did not enjoy it.

 

If you are going to hide a cache on a no trespassing / private property, you really should be clear what you are talking about.

[+AustinMN]

Perhaps another question, since there are a few people that work in law enforcement that participate in the forums, would be to ask them if they'd arrest someone for trespassing if they saw them walk right past a Not Trespassing sign.

 

This is exactly what I'd expect the property owner to do. How would a LEO know the difference?

 

Austin

[+Mr.Benchmark]

OK i have one for you all. Let's say you geocaching and run across a cache that's on private propriety. There's sign's that litter the side of the road saying "No trespassing with out permission" for 1/4 of a mile.

 

NO!!! In fact, in a situation like that, with many, many "No Trespassing" signs, I would immediately contact the reviewer and post a "Needs Archived" log for the cache.

 

Someone who posts a property that heavily means business, and while the legal penalties for trespass generally aren't that severe (note - this varies a LOT by locale! Also you better not be carrying a firearm while trespassing - that makes it much more serious most places), the problem in my opinion is that some property owners are pretty nuts about privacy, and are willing to shoot first, ask questions later. How effectively they could get away with this depends a lot on local laws, however, I'd submit that when somone is shooting at you, your biggest concern is not "gee, they aren't supposed to be doing that - they are going to be in a lot of trouble!"

 

It is also the case that sometimes property is posted because something on the property is actually quite dangerous. An abandoned industrial site would be a good example of this - an unmaintained structure with unknown hazards can be very dangerous, and the property owner may be trying to protect you from harm, and themselves from liability if you are injured.

 

Sometimes people who post like that are trying to keep hunters off their land. Or maybe they have an oil / gas lease and there's danger, either to someone on the land, or to equipment. Maybe they have livestock, and don't want some idiot shooting a cow by mistake. But maybe they have had livestock or property stolen recently, and will think YOU are the one who did it, and react with great hostility - there is just no telling. Often a reason for signage like this is that they've had problems with vandalism on the property.

 

My point is that you can be putting yourself into an unknown and potentially volatile and dangerous situation - either from the law, the property owner, or from some danger on the property itself.

 

If you are caught, best (and most likely) case, you get yelled at by the property owner for being an idiot. Next best case you end up explaining to the sherriff what you are doing there and possibly getting cited, racking up a few hundred dollars in fines. Worst case you get shot or otherwise injured. (The latter is not extremely likely - but it happens.) No cache is worth any of these outcomes.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Mr.Benchmark

[+lamoracke]

as far as this cache goes, you sure you are going from the right direction? If there is an obvious (at least to you) way to get it that says perhaps crossing private property, it would be nice to get clarification from the CO as far as their intent goes.

 

I once did another cache that had a cache that was 70 feet from a private property / no trespassing sign. Just behind it. I mentioned it to the CO and he/she chewed me out for even suggesting it was on private property or you need to access it that way. Turns out there is a way you can get to it from a different direction but that did not seem obvious to me. There were no fences or anything. Looked like to me the obvious access was the gravel road, it was past the sign about 70 feet just off the road about 10-15 feet. So, the road is private property. However, if you came from the other direction, you were coming from public property. Ugh! Either way, perhaps the CO meant coming from a different direction...either way, I wish COs would be clear what direction to come from if private property is an issue for some cachers.

[+DanOCan]

A couple weeks ago I went after a cache and when I approached from the most logical direction I was confronted with No Trespassing signs all along a fence. I attempted to locate another approach but couldn't find one that didn't involve some form of private property. Since no one else had found it yet, I had no previous logs to get ideas from.

 

When I got home I posted a Needs Archived log, stating I couldn't find a legal approach. I said that if the CO and the reviewer had already discussed permission issues I apologize but I thought having the permission explicitly mentioned on the cache page (or directions on how to use a non-obvious but legal approach) would likely prevent issues down the road.

 

A few days later the reviewer retracted the cache listing asking the CO to verify that the coordinates are accurate and/or permission has been granted. Haven't seen it republished yet so I suspect I know the answer...

 

So, to the OP, I can honestly say "No I wouldn't go for it."

[+Mr.Benchmark]

Ugh! Either way, perhaps the CO meant coming from a different direction...either way, I wish COs would be clear what direction to come from if private property is an issue for some cachers.

 

I think stuff like this needs to be at least mentioned on the cache page if private property is going to be a likely obstacle. Sometimes the approach isn't obvious. Sometimes that's part of the challenge - but if it is, the CO needs to rate difficulty appropriately *and* at least mention "if you aren't 100% sure you are on public property, you aren't and you are taking the wrong approach." Many times what they really need to do is provide a parking coordinate. An easy way to do this, often, without giving away too much, is to mention, clearly, on the cache page that "The cache is in ______ park." That at least gives you a clue that if you aren't in the park, you probably aren't doing what you are supposed to be doing.

 

BTW, my biggest fear is running across a situation where the public / private properties are vague and unmarked, but the property owner is just nuts anyway.

[+SwineFlew]

Post a NA log. I done it in the past for a cache that was .10 pasted the sign.

[+Mr.Benchmark]

A couple weeks ago I went after a cache and when I approached from the most logical direction I was confronted with No Trespassing signs all along a fence. I attempted to locate another approach but couldn't find one that didn't involve some form of private property. Since no one else had found it yet, I had no previous logs to get ideas from.

 

This has happened to me twice so far this year. In one case, I think the cache listing was completely bogus - entered accidently, and somehow passing review. (Weird, huh?) In the other case, the cache really was on public property, but the coords were about 800' off, and where they pointed was absolutely on private property. (I ultimately found the second one.)

[+uxorious]

There's sign's that litter the side of the road saying "No trespassing with out permission" for 1/4 of a mile.

 

Without seeing the area it would be hard to say.

 

If there are "No Tresspassing" signs, I would not go past them to seek a cache, without some kind of note on the cache page that assures permission was in fact granted.

 

However, you say the signs litter the side of the road. Is it possable the road itself is public, but the land on either side is not? If that was the case, ( I have seen such areas.)and I knew the road or trail itself was public, I would have no problem.

[+rockandroll_acdc]

OK i have one for you all. Let's say you geocaching and run across a cache that's on private propriety. There's sign's that litter the side of the road saying "No trespassing with out permission" for 1/4 of a mile.

 

NO!!! In fact, in a situation like that, with many, many "No Trespassing" signs, I would immediately contact the reviewer and post a "Needs Archived" log for the cache.

 

Someone who posts a property that heavily means business, and while the legal penalties for trespass generally aren't that severe (note - this varies a LOT by locale! Also you better not be carrying a firearm while trespassing - that makes it much more serious most places), the problem in my opinion is that some property owners are pretty nuts about privacy, and are willing to shoot first, ask questions later. How effectively they could get away with this depends a lot on local laws, however, I'd submit that when somone is shooting at you, your biggest concern is not "gee, they aren't supposed to be doing that - they are going to be in a lot of trouble!"

 

It is also the case that sometimes property is posted because something on the property is actually quite dangerous. An abandoned industrial site would be a good example of this - an unmaintained structure with unknown hazards can be very dangerous, and the property owner may be trying to protect you from harm, and themselves from liability if you are injured.

 

Sometimes people who post like that are trying to keep hunters off their land. Or maybe they have an oil / gas lease and there's danger, either to someone on the land, or to equipment. Maybe they have livestock, and don't want some idiot shooting a cow by mistake. But maybe they have had livestock or property stolen recently, and will think YOU are the one who did it, and react with great hostility - there is just no telling. Often a reason for signage like this is that they've had problems with vandalism on the property.

 

My point is that you can be putting yourself into an unknown and potentially volatile and dangerous situation - either from the law, the property owner, or from some danger on the property itself.

 

If you are caught, best (and most likely) case, you get yelled at by the property owner for being an idiot. Next best case you end up explaining to the sherriff what you are doing there and possibly getting cited, racking up a few hundred dollars in fines. Worst case you get shot or otherwise injured. (The latter is not extremely likely - but it happens.) No cache is worth any of these outcomes.

I have contacted the reviewer. The cache is in hold right now and hopefuly be Archived. For you in the west Michigan area, the land is Owned by DeVos Ind. A few years back i reported another one. They took it off right away. Not sure of the hold up on this one.

[+Mr.Benchmark]

I have contacted the reviewer. The cache is in hold right now and hopefuly be Archived. For you in the west Michigan area, the land is Owned by DeVos Ind. A few years back i reported another one. They took it off right away. Not sure of the hold up on this one.

 

It's likely they are trying to contact the cache owner. There could be some mitigating circumstances:

1. Maybe the cache owner *is* the property owner, and so they have permission.

2. Maybe there is a completely legal way to access the cache. On the cache I found this year that seemed to be on private property, you could drive to within about 0.2 miles before hitting a wall of no trespassing signs. (Correct coords would've changed this to 0.3 miles...) The LEGAL approach to the property required, I kid you not, a 15 mile detour that was not obvious.

3. Maybe the coords are bad, and the cache is a PnG on the fence line.

 

Disabling the cache should be sufficient to keep people from seeking it until the matter is sorted out.

[+rockandroll_acdc]

as far as this cache goes, you sure you are going from the right direction? If there is an obvious (at least to you) way to get it that says perhaps crossing private property, it would be nice to get clarification from the CO as far as their intent goes.

 

I once did another cache that had a cache that was 70 feet from a private property / no trespassing sign. Just behind it. I mentioned it to the CO and he/she chewed me out for even suggesting it was on private property or you need to access it that way. Turns out there is a way you can get to it from a different direction but that did not seem obvious to me. There were no fences or anything. Looked like to me the obvious access was the gravel road, it was past the sign about 70 feet just off the road about 10-15 feet. So, the road is private property. However, if you came from the other direction, you were coming from public property. Ugh! Either way, perhaps the CO meant coming from a different direction...either way, I wish COs would be clear what direction to come from if private property is an issue for some cachers.

The CO clearly knew you had to cross many acres of private land. This land is 100's of acres long i think. There excuse was "Everyone else is doing so it ok". But i did find out you can get it by taking a mile walk along Lake Michigan....Nah...

[+Mr.Benchmark]

The CO clearly knew you had to cross many acres of private land. This land is 100's of acres long i think. There excuse was "Everyone else is doing so it ok". But i did find out you can get it by taking a mile walk along Lake Michigan....Nah...

 

Are you saying the walk along the lake shore is legal or not? If it's not legal, the cache should be archived. If it is legal, then there's really no problem, other than they should've stated how to approach this.

 

Sometimes there are special rules for shorelines. For example, in my area, you THINK you own a lakehouse, with land right up to the water. In fact, you own no such thing. The US Army Corps of Engineers owns the shoreline, and some number of feet back from it. You may pay taxes on this land, but if you want to cut a blade of grass on what seems like your property, you better have a permit. If someone wants to walk through that way, it is permitted, no matter how annoying that is to you.

[+DragonsWest]

A couple weeks ago I went after a cache and when I approached from the most logical direction I was confronted with No Trespassing signs all along a fence. I attempted to locate another approach but couldn't find one that didn't involve some form of private property. Since no one else had found it yet, I had no previous logs to get ideas from.

 

This has happened to me twice so far this year. In one case, I think the cache listing was completely bogus - entered accidently, and somehow passing review. (Weird, huh?) In the other case, the cache really was on public property, but the coords were about 800' off, and where they pointed was absolutely on private property. (I ultimately found the second one.)

 

Though it has not involved a cache I have encountered situations where people don't want intruders on their turf, so post bogus Private Road, Private Property or No Trespassing signs - in at least one instance I know of the person posting the signs was confronted on it as they were trying to prevent traffic in public parks past their home (didn't want the noice, I guess.) Best not to assume, but be aware sometimes signs are just signs.

[+ras_oscar]

If a property owner has taken the time and energy to post his land as no trespassing I will respect the posted wishes, even if it costs me a smiley. Having said that, I will also point out that the cache publishing process requires the CO to check off a box stating that " adequate permission has been given". If, despite my utmost care I find myself in court defending against a trespassing charge, I would point out that I believed i was an invited guest. Any lawyers that want to take a crack at that case?

Edited April 18, 2012 by ras_oscar

[+ArcherDragoon]

as far as this cache goes, you sure you are going from the right direction? If there is an obvious (at least to you) way to get it that says perhaps crossing private property, it would be nice to get clarification from the CO as far as their intent goes.

 

I once did another cache that had a cache that was 70 feet from a private property / no trespassing sign. Just behind it. I mentioned it to the CO and he/she chewed me out for even suggesting it was on private property or you need to access it that way. Turns out there is a way you can get to it from a different direction but that did not seem obvious to me. There were no fences or anything. Looked like to me the obvious access was the gravel road, it was past the sign about 70 feet just off the road about 10-15 feet. So, the road is private property. However, if you came from the other direction, you were coming from public property. Ugh! Either way, perhaps the CO meant coming from a different direction...either way, I wish COs would be clear what direction to come from if private property is an issue for some cachers.

The CO clearly knew you had to cross many acres of private land. This land is 100's of acres long i think. There excuse was "Everyone else is doing so it ok". But i did find out you can get it by taking a mile walk along Lake Michigan....Nah...

So...does it mean it is ok??? Sounds to me like it is and people are just using the "easy" way (which, I would address on the cache page if it were mine)...do you have actual proof that the CO didn't intend for people to actually take the mile long walk...because I would take that walk...

[+DanOCan]

At the risk of going off topic, when it comes to spelling out permission on a cache page, I really appreciate it when it has a name associated with it. I've played out this scenario:

 

Muggle: Hey, what are you doing? This is privarte property.

Me: Hi. I'm Geocaching. I understand this is private property but the person who hid the container here has permission.

Muggle: From who?

Me: I dunno -- someone, I guess.

Muggle: Uh huh...so, who hid that thing here?

Me: I dunno, some guy on the Internet, I don't know his real name.

 

It's much easier if you can say "Gary Smith granted this permission."

[+ArcherDragoon]

At the risk of going off topic, when it comes to spelling out permission on a cache page, I really appreciate it when it has a name associated with it. I've played out this scenario:

 

Muggle: Hey, what are you doing? This is privarte property.

Me: Hi. I'm Geocaching. I understand this is private property but the person who hid the container here has permission.

Muggle: From who?

Me: I dunno -- someone, I guess.

Muggle: Uh huh...so, who hid that thing here?

Me: I dunno, some guy on the Internet, I don't know his real name.

 

It's much easier if you can say "Gary Smith granted this permission."

I have two on private land...first name is given on cache page...and there is a sign at posted parking coordinates that has full name of land owner.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Perhaps another question, since there are a few people that work in law enforcement that participate in the forums, would be to ask them if they'd arrest someone for trespassing if they saw them walk right past a Not Trespassing sign.

 

This is exactly what I'd expect the property owner to do. How would a LEO know the difference?

 

Austin

 

He/She would likely ask the proof that permission to be their was obtained. I doubt that, "I know the owner of the property, he said it was okay that I could be here" would be sufficient.

[+6NoisyHikers]

At the risk of going off topic, when it comes to spelling out permission on a cache page, I really appreciate it when it has a name associated with it. I've played out this scenario:

 

Muggle: Hey, what are you doing? This is private property.

Me: Hi. I'm Geocaching. I understand this is private property but the person who hid the container here has permission.

Muggle: From who?

Me: I dunno -- someone, I guess.

Muggle: Uh huh...so, who hid that thing here?

Me: I dunno, some guy on the Internet, I don't know his real name.

 

It's much easier if you can say "Gary Smith granted this permission."

 

Holy Cow THIS! I hadn't thought about it before, but that is definitely how most conversations would go. Not exactly reassuring, is it?

 

And +1 on the posting of false no trespassing signs. If someone takes the effort to put them up, that is not a person I want to cross.

[+rockandroll_acdc]

Here's the Gc3gr8x for the cache. When you open this in map, from around 142nd south, west of 66th to about 145th is the private land. There some other house around there but i thought this would give you a good idea. If they reopen this, i meant take the mile walk with the dog, maybe...lol lol

[+SoonerCardsFan]

I won't cross a No Tresspassing sign. There a a couple of caches close by home that are in parks or greenbelts owned/maintained by the Home Owners Association of the addition the park is in. They are clearly marked No Tresspassing. Not going in there.

[+Mr.Benchmark]

Just to be more clear about what I said about reviewers, in both of the caches this year where I had private property concerns, I first very carefully checked to be sure I could find no other legal approach. In one case there was, in the other case there wasn't.

 

I attempted contact with the CO in both cases. Only then when it wasn't resolved in one case did I get a reviewer involved. In the past, I've filed an immediate NA log in cases where I knew first-hand that the cache was improperly placed. (In one case I learned this from the armed and exceedingly angry security guard who confronted me.)

[+Colonial Cats]

I won't cross a No Tresspassing sign. There a a couple of caches close by home that are in parks or greenbelts owned/maintained by the Home Owners Association of the addition the park is in. They are clearly marked No Tresspassing. Not going in there.

We searched for a cache on land owned by an Home Owners Association that did not have any no trespassing signs posted. Someone from management asked what we were doing and after we explained the whole Geocaching thing, he asked that we take the cache away with us. Obviously, the CO did not get permission. We took the cache away, emailed the CO, and submitted a Needs Archiving post. We did take the Smiley though.

 

That said, we would not usually post a Needs Archiving post until we give the CO to respond/react. WE might not know the whole story and this gives the CO a chance to correct the situation.

[+Mr.Benchmark]

Here's the Gc3gr8x for the cache. When you open this in map, from around 142nd south, west of 66th to about 145th is the private land. There some other house around there but i thought this would give you a good idea. If they reopen this, i meant take the mile walk with the dog, maybe...lol lol

 

Given that the CO, and apparently lots of others, had trespassed on this location for a long time, I can understand why they'd make this mistake. Actually, given that the CO apparently knows the family in question, it is possible that for them only, it is not trespassing for them to be there. (Some places, the law reads that if you trespass long enough and the property owner doesn't do anything about it, you gain some rights.) Will be interested to see what happens. The mile long walk along the beach would be construed by many as an improvement to the cache experience...

[+Semper Questio]

OK i have one for you all. Let's say you geocaching and run across a cache that's on private propriety. There's sign's that litter the side of the road saying "No trespassing with out permission" for 1/4 of a mile. The cache owner doesn't say they have permission. Would you trespass to get the cache or would you obey the law? Wait, theirs people already entering the land to get ot the beach. Would then go? Some frendly guy tells you "you can go on to the land, they will not do anything" Would you go? interested to see people thoughts on this....

 

I would not only not go, but I would photo the sign and put an NA on the cache.

[+Mn-treker]

There is no way I would tresspass. I do have a cache placed on private property. It is on an island in a lake in Minnesota.

the island is not posted, but I checked anyway since it is possible to own an island. The owners told me that a cache had been placed there once before without permission. That one got archived, he did give me permission. I posted this fact on my cache page along with his name thanking him for permission.

 

As for parking lot hides you need permission for these also. There is a cache placed somewhere in Blaine, MN in a lot that has a sign.

the sign says all unauthorized activities are prohibitted the only activity authorized is shopping. It then gives the property owners name.

I did not see that sign till after I got jumped by a cop who pointed it out. That cache is still there, the cache owner just does not get it that he can't hide one there. When his cache went missing word went out that the CO was going to muggle my cache hides, he thought I took it, the cop most likely took it.

The CO replaced it and I am not going near that lot again.

[+Too Tall John]

That said, we would not usually post a Needs Archiving post until we give the CO to respond/react. WE might not know the whole story and this gives the CO a chance to correct the situation.

Why wouldn't you post the "Needs Archived"? What happens if the CO doesn't respond/react? Someone with less regard for the rules might give the landowner a very bad impression of the game in the meanwhile, and a NA log does nothing but alert the CO and the Reviewer that there is a possible issue with the cache.

[+Chrysalides]

If it is clearly signed, I will not go past it to get to a cache, even if a cache is not on private land but the only way to get there is to cross private land.

 

A sign "No trespassing without permission" doesn't make sense, however. If I have permission, I am not trespassing

[+dakboy]

At the risk of going off topic, when it comes to spelling out permission on a cache page, I really appreciate it when it has a name associated with it. I've played out this scenario:

 

Muggle: Hey, what are you doing? This is private property.

Me: Hi. I'm Geocaching. I understand this is private property but the person who hid the container here has permission.

Muggle: From who?

Me: I dunno -- someone, I guess.

Muggle: Uh huh...so, who hid that thing here?

Me: I dunno, some guy on the Internet, I don't know his real name.

 

It's much easier if you can say "Gary Smith granted this permission."

 

Holy Cow THIS! I hadn't thought about it before, but that is definitely how most conversations would go. Not exactly reassuring, is it?

I've had almost this exact conversation.

 

The cache did have permission. Confirmed by the CO, but unfortunately after I'd left. AFAIK, no information on the cache listing to this day regarding who gave permission, only that was given by the museum whose grounds it is on. Employees at the museum were unable to find a person who had knowledge of this permission - maybe the guy was unreachable, maybe he's no longer employed there and didn't hand off the information, maybe they just tried calling all the wrong people. I don't know, to be honest.

 

If it's private land and permission has been given, please provide some information to give to questioners so that they know you're on the up & up.

[+dakboy]

How do you trespass "with permission"? Isn't the whole idea of trespassing that you don't have permission?

 

I won't knowingly cross a No Trespassing sign. That's just asking for trouble, and gives us all a bad name.

[+skraeling]

In general, trespassing is a bad idea. I have noticed, however, that some people that feel entitled, have/will put up signs proclaiming an area private property that they have no legal right to...

 

If this were in my area, I would do some more research to see who owns the area in question - but signs that read "no trespassing without permission" (if they really said that) would smack of someone claiming property they have no right to claim.

[+Mr.Benchmark]

If this were in my area, I would do some more research to see who owns the area in question - but signs that read "no trespassing without permission" (if they really said that) would smack of someone claiming property they have no right to claim.

 

It would also help to know the local laws about trespassing and signage. Perhaps that signage isn't legal.

 

There are reasons other than trying to deny people access to land that the person posting the signage doesn't own. Maybe they want to discourage visitors, but not outright ban them.

 

For example, I've found that at some churches and businesses, they will post proper looking handicapped signage in designated handicapped parking places - except that there will be some not obvious flaw with the signage that makes parking in those spots not ticketable. (In the situation I heard about, it was the height of the signs - they weren't within the legal limit, you wouldn't know this without detailed legal knowledge and a measuring tape!) They do this because while they really WANT only handicapped persons to park there, they DO NOT WANT their members to get ticketed for parking in those spots. (Maybe whoever parked there forgot their placard.) So local law enforcement knows to not bother folks in those parking places, even if the car parked in them really shouldn't be there.

 

It's conceivable that whoever posted the "No Trespassing Without Permission" signs (is that really what it says?) didn't want that stretch of beach to devolve into a public beach, but they also didn't want friends who use it to be harrassed, either. (I kind of doubt this - but it's not impossible.) Unfortunately, only someone who really knows the local ordinances and laws, or the land owner, can speak to something like that. As best I can tell, these laws vary A LOT from place to place. The large number of signs described makes me doubt this, but who knows?

[+Planet]

No. I wouldn't.

[+Manville Possum]

No. I would not.

[+AustinMN]

Perhaps another question, since there are a few people that work in law enforcement that participate in the forums, would be to ask them if they'd arrest someone for trespassing if they saw them walk right past a Not Trespassing sign.

 

This is exactly what I'd expect the property owner to do. How would a LEO know the difference?

 

Austin

 

He/She would likely ask the proof that permission to be their was obtained. I doubt that, "I know the owner of the property, he said it was okay that I could be here" would be sufficient.

 

I doubt they would do anything beyond noting that a person was there. The owner needs nobody's permission to be on his own property. The owner is not required to have identification on his own property. The owner looks like anybody else on his own property. The owner is probably unknown to the police.

 

If there was a complaint, or if there was a special arrangement with law enforcement, they might question someone (often the case with businesses and such), but for just some guy's empty property with a sign, not a chance.

 

Austin

[+Chokecherry]

Personally having had to deal with the trespassing issue both with having people trespass on land I owned and trespassing myself over the years I don't play around with the the minute details about proper signage and numbers etc when confronted with it. If someone comes out and tells I'm on their property I leave. If I cross a sign to get there I don't go "Well sir I see you don't have your full name and contact information so I can call and ask if I can have access to your property to do such and such." I go "I'm sorry" and leave.

 

Since I've worked hard in my area to get permission a couple places to hide caches I don't want to be a bad steward of geocaching so if someone says I'm not where I should be I apologize and leave instead of getting into and endless little spat about rules and regs. It's a lot of small towns here. I don't want to leave people with their only thing to remember geocaching by being that obstinate girl with all the tattoos arguing about rules and regs.

[+dprovan]

I knew there'd be a lot of self-righteous replies to this question, and I think they've given you lots of good information. But to answer your question honestly, though: sure, if it looked to me like a commonly used path, I'd go, but definitely being prepared to be polite. My main thinking is that if everyone else gets away with it to get to the beach, then I'll probably get away with it to get to the cache, and behind that I'm wondering if all these no trespassing signs are really legit, or just someone trying to discourage use of what's actually a valid right of way.

 

On the plus sign, I've run into several scary looking no trespassing signs on known good access to parks because no one ever took the signs down when the area was opened to the public. On the down sign, someone in my area put a few new caches in some open space not yet opened to the public that was commonly accessed through private property, and the authorities soon started "greeting" the few cachers that went to get them and told them never to come back or else. We're still giving that CO a bad time about shutting down that area.

 

I wouldn't hide anything on the path to the beach, though, because the objections stated here are definitely legitimate, even if it doesn't bother me as much. Someone mentioned home owner association maintained walkways with no trespassing signs, and that's a perfect example to me: I'll walk along those every time, but at the same time I recognize that I'd need to get premission to hide a cache there.

Edited April 18, 2012 by dprovan

[+ohmelli]

We have a cache in our area (GCN3BM) where the homeowners actually INVITE you to come onto their property and tell you (in the hint) to PARK in their DRIVEWAY... and I still feel icky about going there! (and haven't yet) There is NO WAY I'm going beyond a NO TRESSPASSING sign! NOT a CHANCE!

[+niraD]

Unless I knew that the "no trespassing" signs were invalid, I would respect them. I'd also post NM and/or NA logs with photos.

 

The kind of exception I'm referring to actually existed around here. Some previously posted private property was donated to a local open space district. The district took down all the "no trespassing" signs they could find, but there were still a few out there. They actually asked local hikers to report the locations of any remaining signs they came upon.

[Clan Riffster]

The first thing I would do is look on my maps to see if there were some other access route to the cache. Failing that, I would be, (in dproven's words), "self righteous", and leave. When I got home I would look up the area on the property appraiser's website, again looking to see if there were some obscure, legal means to reach those coordinates. Failing that, I would attempt to contact the property owner to see how they felt about the cache, and if they were OK with it, I would ask them about access. If they were not OK with the cache, I would let the Reviewer know about the situation.