Is this wrong?

[+Ike 13]

It has recently come to light that one of the things I occasionally do in logs may have offended some of the locals. Occasionally I will point out that I feel a cache's difficulty and/or terrain rating is off. I do this mainly to help other seekers. If the cache is rated a 1/1 but it is a 2/2 your search habits will vary. I do not think what I say is rude or out of line. Here is one recent log where I did that:

 

We were in Wilmington finishing the Bling Power run. We needed a multi. We DNFd the one we had planned so made a stop on the way home for the easiest and quickest '5/5' ever. I forgot my flashlight but that didn't matter plenty of light in here. The steep hill was the most challenging terrain. The find was straightforward and easy. At max I'd give this a 2.5/3.5 rating. Thanks for the cache.

 

So what do y'all think, is it wrong to put comments like this in your online log?

[+The A-Team]

So what do y'all think, is it wrong to put comments like this in your online log?

I've been known to mention things like this, but pretty rarely. I usually only comment when there's a blatant mis-rating, like this one I did the other day. It's a film canister about 20 feet from an old railbed-turned-trail. I'd have rated it as 1/1.5.

 

That 5/5 multi you did doesn't sound like it should be a 5/5. From some of the other logs:

Found much quicker than expected.

I will admit I have done harder underground caches, but this was great fun.

Came out with the Kids to let them do the cache. They Loved it.

From the photos, it sure doesn't seem like terrain 5. Also, based on the content and number of finds, it doesn't sound like the cache was particularly hard to find. If I found that cache, I'd probably make a comment about the ratings, too.

[+L0ne.R]

Thank you for doing this. After I broke my leg (while geocaching) accurate terrain ratings really mattered to me. A steep incline near or on the way to a cache or bushwacking through and over branches and logs made it impossible for me to do the cache until about 6 months into my recovery. I really noticed how many COs consider a steep slope and bushwhacking to be a terrain 2 or under.

Edited April 16, 2012 by L0ne R

[Pup Patrol]

So what do y'all think, is it wrong to put comments like this in your online log?

 

Uh, no.

 

A "found it" log should give constructive feedback, to both the cache owner and fellow cachers. Isn't that part of the "caching experience"?

 

Or are you just suppposed to heap praise on the cache owner, and move along?

 

Plenty of folks put feedback like that in their online logs, and alternative coordinates, too, if they disagree with the published coordinates.

 

Is it other cachers giving you grief, or cache owners?

 

B.

[+Chokecherry]

I appreciate info from finders. Some folks here put a cache out and rate it 1.5 because they took an atv in the woods to hide it. Not the best info when I'm trying to find caches that are safe for my mobility impaired mom to do with me. I count on terrain ratings heavily for safety purposes and any time a finder puts in what they experienced terrain wise that doesn't jive with the rating I use that info.

[+Ike 13]

Thanks for the feedback. It's good to know I am not the only person who thinks constructive feedback is a good thing.

[+StarBrand]

I wish more folks would point out big discrepancies for the T/D ratings. However there are some real regional differences of +/- 1 star that you have to respect. Folks that live in rocky, mountainous terrain tend to give lower terrain ratings than average. Folks that live on flat prairie grassland tend to go a bit high with terrain in hilly areas. Just the way it is.

[+J the Goat]

I do this fairly regularly, keeping in mind that my 3 star terrain might be somebody elses 2 or 4 or whatever. I don't do it with any malice intended, as it seems you didn't either, it's just constructive suggestion/information. Around here, CO's will often change their ratings after the first few finders if the general consensus is that their ratings are a bit off to begin with.

 

Sounds like an overly sensitive CO who would be bothered by this to me...

[+Max and 99]

IkeHurley: You did the right thing, and you stated it in a nice way. When I was a newbie, I got feedback on my cache diff/terrain and adjusted accordingly. I appreciated that help from other cachers. The key is to do it in a nice way.

 

I placed a very challenging cache a few years ago. I get a lot of DNFs on it, which is expected. One early finder (who had previously logged a DNF) made the comment "In the winter this will be a 1.5". Well, in the past two years I think only 1 person has logged a find, everyone else logged a DNF. I wish they wouldn't have said something like that in their log, because it's just not accurate and was based on a prediction, not something they actually experienced.

[+WestSideDaddy]

Did a cache owner say something to you about your posts?

[+SwineFlew]

No, its not wrong. Some people just take things too personal. In fact, I do read 5/5 cache pages for info of what I need to do to find it. Its very important for me to find a log like yours.

[+NeverSummer]

As an owner, I like getting the feedback. Using the ClayJar system, the D/T is usually "on". However there can be unforseen issues like snowfall, spring growth, heavy leaf fall... And that can change a rating based on the season.

 

I'm of the school of thought that cache listings can and should have that context for the find. The D/T can be the ballpark, and the description and/or hint can give a little more info. This can be set outright by the owner, or gleaned from the feedback from other cachers.

 

Just yesterday I went out to find a 3/2. The terrain was very uneven, and it was necessary to traverse a clearcut with slag piles and some moderate new brushy growth. I mentioned that it was a little more than a 2 for me. But, without gripe or issue, the owner emailed me, thanked me for the feedback and for searching, and then upped the terrain rating a single star.

 

We all can hope that others will receive feedback well. However, that's not always the case. Ownership of a cache, the listing, and how you play the game can cause some egos to collide when feedback is given.

 

Oh well. Dems da berries.

[+Bunganator]

I would be interested in having an owner D/T rating and a finder D/T rating on each cache page. When I post a found it log, it would be nice to list what I thought the D/T should be. Then it could average that over many finders and potentially give a more accurate measure of the actual D/T based on many cachers rather than just the owner.

 

I know this might not bode well for the Grid Fillers, but I like seeking out high terrain caches and am often disappointed when I find an overrated cache. I feel like I didn't "earn" the stars. Similarly, caches that are underrated I feel like I "earned" more stars than I got. Of course they are just numbers, but I use these numbers to help guide my caching experiences.

[+Max and 99]

I would be interested in having an owner D/T rating and a finder D/T rating on each cache page. When I post a found it log, it would be nice to list what I thought the D/T should be. Then it could average that over many finders and potentially give a more accurate measure of the actual D/T based on many cachers rather than just the owner.

 

 

I like that idea!

[+Walts Hunting]

I would be interested in having an owner D/T rating and a finder D/T rating on each cache page. When I post a found it log, it would be nice to list what I thought the D/T should be. Then it could average that over many finders and potentially give a more accurate measure of the actual D/T based on many cachers rather than just the owner.

 

 

I like that idea!

Discussion many times, and will not happen here

[+JesandTodd]

Thank you for doing this. After I broke my leg (while geocaching) accurate terrain ratings really mattered to me. A steep incline near or on the way to a cache or bushwacking through and over branches and logs made it impossible for me to do the cache until about 6 months into my recovery. I really noticed how many COs consider a steep slope and bushwhacking to be a terrain 2 or under.

 

I hear ya. One time I was carelessly stabbed in the thigh and had to be on crutches for a bit. It really opened my eyes as to how terribly many COs rate their caches!

 

My biggest beef is the T=1 caches. If a person in a wheelchair cannot get it, then it's not a T=1!

[+Mr.Benchmark]

I would be interested in having an owner D/T rating and a finder D/T rating on each cache page. When I post a found it log, it would be nice to list what I thought the D/T should be. Then it could average that over many finders and potentially give a more accurate measure of the actual D/T based on many cachers rather than just the owner.

 

 

I like that idea!

 

In theory this is a great idea. However, this has been tried on other sites, and doesn't work that well in practice in my opinion. Unfortunately, the average of several (essentially) random and subjective data points doesn't really produce a more accurate result. Also, many caches don't get enough traffic to make statistical methods very reliable anyway.

 

I think providing honest, reasoned, well intentioned, and polite feedback as IkeHurley13 did is really the best way to go. Good CO's will hopefully be responsive to this.

[+DanOCan]

I once mentioned in a log that I had thought about skipping a cache because it was a T3 but since it seemed so close to the road we decided to try it. It involved nothing more than a 3m walk across a ditch beside the road. I mentioned in my log that I thought the Terrain was overrated and I got a snarky reply from the CO saying the Clayjar system says "some steep elevation changes" means the Terrain = 3 and therefore I should mind my own business.

 

Still doesn't stop me from mentioned when I think the ratings are way off base.

[+Chokecherry]

I once mentioned in a log that I had thought about skipping a cache because it was a T3 but since it seemed so close to the road we decided to try it. It involved nothing more than a 3m walk across a ditch beside the road. I mentioned in my log that I thought the Terrain was overrated and I got a snarky reply from the CO saying the Clayjar system says "some steep elevation changes" means the Terrain = 3 and therefore I should mind my own business.

 

Still doesn't stop me from mentioned when I think the ratings are way off base.

 

And I would love to know that too because as often as I find under rated caches I have found some rated higher that are perfectly suited for my mom to do too. She did a 2.5 terrain the other day which involved a trip down a hill which wasn't steep or rocky or anything and a very short trip (3 steps) through a swampy area. I could see it now being significantly more swampy after some rain but I also mention in my logs if I found the terrain suitable for my mom on higher rated caches.

[+bflentje]

..nevermind

Edited April 16, 2012 by bflentje

[+wimseyguy]

There's nothing wrong with this practice as long as it is done in a constructive manner.

I don't know that it's worth doing on every single log though.

Ratings are based on experiences, yours are likely to differ from most hiders in your area.

Edited April 16, 2012 by wimseyguy

[+Harry Dolphin]

Only if they're blantantly off. Some people just do not read the guidelines. I'll mention that 1 terrain means wheel chair accessible. 50' down a rocky hill does not qualify. Did a 5/5 mystery caches where the coords were off by 6', and the walk in was a 2.5 at most. Didn't bother mentioning anything there.

But I will use terrain ratings to decide if I wish to hunt for a cache, so acccurate readings are a good idea.

[+briansnat]

Thanks for the feedback. It's good to know I am not the only person who thinks constructive feedback is a good thing.

 

I think the logs are in part, for feedback. I would hope that finders would use them for constructive feedback.

 

I've noted in logs when I thought caches were over or under rated (usually over). I recall a 4 star terrain cache in VA that involved jumping across a 2 ft wide ditch, then walking on perfectly flat ground through well spaced trees, with very little undergrowth. The cache had been out for nearly a year, but I noted in my log that it would be rated no more than 2 stars back home. Next time I looked the CO knocked it down to 2.5 stars.

 

Then there was the 5 star terrain cache that was 30 feet from a parking lot on a moderately steep hillside with a few down trees to negotiate. I suggested that it was more of a 2.5, but last I looked it was still 5 stars.

Edited April 17, 2012 by briansnat

[+A & J Tooling]

A few weeks ago, I found a cache that was within sight of where a lady was shot and her car stolen for a couple of drug dealers. I mentioned a lot of police were in the area checking out suspisious behavior and my log was deleted for saying bad things about the area. Go figure...

[+Ike 13]

I don't know that it's worth doing on every single log though.

I'd say I've mentioned things like the above rating dispute maybe 5 times. That's out of 4000+ cache logs. I've reported bad coordinates at least 20 times.

[+Don_J]

There's nothing wrong with this practice as long as it is done in a constructive manner.

I don't know that it's worth doing on every single log though.

Ratings are based on experiences, yours are likely to differ from most hiders in your area.

 

I have no qualms about doing it if it is warranted. I try to be objective and construtive.

 

I use the rating system for my caches and wish everyone else would as well. It would give everyone a common understanding of just what a D/T rating means. I have one very experianced hiker/mountain climber/boulderer constantly write that my terrain ratings are too high. The ratings criteria are spelled out by Clayjar and also Geocaching.com. They should not be based on any particular cachers abilities.

 

I found one that was four miles on a moderate trail, then a 600' desent down a 45 degree incline with loose rocks and soil. The only way to return was to go back up top. The T rating was 1.5. I made sure to explain in my log why it wasn't.

[+The A-Team]

The ratings criteria are spelled out by Clayjar and also Geocaching.com.

The ClayJar rating tool only gives you a recommendation based on a very small set of criteria. There are loads of situations where the tool just doesn't work well, in which case a hider needs to choose the ratings based on their experience in their area. There's no way to have an officially defined rating system, because most caches won't fit into any one category. Make your best guess based on your past experiences, and if the general consensus of finders is that your ratings should be tweaked, you should do so.

[+Don_J]

The ratings criteria are spelled out by Clayjar and also Geocaching.com.

The ClayJar rating tool only gives you a recommendation based on a very small set of criteria. There are loads of situations where the tool just doesn't work well, in which case a hider needs to choose the ratings based on their experience in their area. There's no way to have an officially defined rating system, because most caches won't fit into any one category. Make your best guess based on your past experiences, and if the general consensus of finders is that your ratings should be tweaked, you should do so.

 

I think that we should use our best guess based on the rating systems available, not past experiance. The cache I described is a 1.5 based on the hiders experiance. My 90 yr old caching friend wouldn't even be able to get to the general area. It shouldn't be in his pocket query. I agree that not every situation can be pigeon holed into the rating system, but there is no reason why the system shouldn't be used as a starting point.

[+Mr.Benchmark]

I found one that was four miles on a moderate trail, then a 600' desent down a 45 degree incline with loose rocks and soil. The only way to return was to go back up top. The T rating was 1.5. I made sure to explain in my log why it wasn't.

 

Thanks - I think the underrated terrains are more serious than the overrated ones. Overrated is a disappointment. Underrated could get someone who's inexperienced or unprepared in real trouble.

[+Mr.Benchmark]

I agree that not every situation can be pigeon holed into the rating system, but there is no reason why the system shouldn't be used as a starting point.

 

One example is that the system doesn't deal with complex, difficult navigation TO the cache site in your vehicle, other than noting that you need an unusual vehicle. There are cases where finding the correct roads to the cache is actually much more challenging than finding the cache itself. I've seen examples where people who know what they are doing who spent hours lost out in the middle of nowhere, trying to get to a trailhead to a cache. Likewise, unpaved roads that are not really 4x4 required, but where many passenger cars aren't going to cut it isn't handled well either.

 

It is very easy to imagine a very difficult drive to the trailhead, followed by a quite mellow hike to an easy to find cache.

[+The A-Team]

I agree that not every situation can be pigeon holed into the rating system, but there is no reason why the system shouldn't be used as a starting point.

I agree with this, and I should have included that in my previous post. The ClayJar system is a good place to start, then maybe tweak based on your experiences. If the rating system rates it at 4 (which your example would be, based on your description), don't downgrade it all the way to 1.5 because you've never done a T4 and don't know what they're like. The ClayJar system should probably get you to within about a star for most cases. For the most extreme cases, you may have to tweak it further. The ratings also seem to vary slightly by region. For most of my caches, the ClayJar system tends to rate them a bit high compared with most of the existing caches around here.

[+NanCycle]

 

So what do y'all think, is it wrong to put comments like this in your online log?

 

Absolutely not. As someone approaching my 70th birthday I pay close attention to the D/T ratings and really appreciate another finder's opinion. I am also just 5' tall and always appreciate when the CO or another cacher lets me know that the cache might be out of my reach; then I know to bring along a reacher-grabber, or something to stand on, or a taller person. It is always possible to make the comments in either a nice or nasty manner, but you still can't predict how the CO is going to take them.

 

I once went for a T=1 cache that required climbing over a cement block wall about 3 ft high and mentioned in my post that this was not wheelchair accessible and suggested that the CO adjust the T rating. The CO took offense and told me to look at the attributes--which did include "Not wheelchair accessible." OK so I didn't take great care to use the kindest, gentlest possible phrasing, but I wasn't rude about it either--just straight and to the point.

 

Anyway, I still give my opinions, and I hope that you will comtinue to give yours as well.