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Is there REALLY a gps device better than the iPhone?


Sinver

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I hear all the time that the iPhone is not as good as a dedicated gps device, but am needing convincing!

 

Can anyone show me a picture of a gps device, with an ON SCREEN shot of its accuracy? I find it terribly suspicious there are no actual quoted figures of accuracy or proof. My iPhone has a great official app, easy to use, and accuracy to within 5metres. Can any device beat this?

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A simplistic answer for sure, but I will say that ..... A dedicated anything is better (for a single purpose) than a 'does it all' something.

 

This is true with most all things created by mankind. A multi-use device must sacrifice something in order to do everything.

 

I had prepared a list of comparisons, but it was long and (thinking about it) unnecessary.

 

Is an iPhone and it's kin useable? Certainly. But you can also carve a turkey with a survival muti-tool, you can ride trails with a Harley-Davidson and you shoot elephants with a machine gun..... lots more.

 

I know, it reads to be a smart-alec response..... but it's all true.

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Please keep in mind that the "accuracy" number displayed on your device, is only an "estimate" - if the device accurately knew it's true error, it would just make the adjustment and give you zero error. But it can only estimate. An engineer at Apple, or Garmin, or wherever, could adjust the algorithm used to come up with that estimate, to give a nice low number, however it still wouldn't make the device any more accurate.

 

The real test of accuracy is how well others can find a cache hidden with a given device. I find that in the real world, most caches hidden by someone with a smartphone, the coordinates are a couple of dozen feet off or more. Consistently.

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My dedicated GPSr- both of them have given me accuracy within 5 feet. At times 1M(about 3 feet) and a couple times exactly zero. It was on the cache and read "zero feet" My phone had accuracy, sometimes 20 feet, usually more than 100 feet. There was one cache I was better off looking in Google earth than using my phone, I understand that is not usually the case, but like was said above, a dedicated device is better than non-dedicated. A Leatherman is great at fixing stuff, but it will never be as good as a full set of Snap-On tools.

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I have a Garmin Vista Hcx and a Blackberry. I use both for geocaching. I would say that in fair to good conditions (e.g. limited overhead cover and fairly clear skies) that the two are equivalent in terms of accuracy IMHO. However, in poor conditions (e.g. heavily overcast, thick overhead canopy) then my Garmin is definitely more accurate.

 

The real reason I prefer my Garmin is because it is rugged and I like to do caches that take me into areas that I really don't want to have my phone out in for fear of damaging it. In those cases, I take out the phone only for the paperless aspect of it (when I want to check past logs or details of the cache description) and put it away while trekking through the forest. I have, on a couple of occasions, dropped my Garmin right into some pretty deep water. The Garmin survived without damage where I don't think my Blackberry would have.

 

So, in the end, I would say if you are mostly into lower terrain or urban caches then a smartphone can be all you need. For cases where you will be crossing more difficult terrain with heavy tree cover and water crossings then it may not be the best instrument for the job.

 

I also forgot to mention that I use CacheSense on my Blackberry which works well in areas with no cell coverage because I can store the cache data locally on the phone and it will take my published field notes or logs and wait to send them to GC.com when there is a signal so cell coverage is not an issue for me, but I am not familiar with the Groundspeak apps. If the app does not work well out of cell tower range than that can also be a minus for using the smartphone for some areas.

Edited by GeePa
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I hear all the time that the iPhone is not as good as a dedicated gps device, but am needing convincing!

 

Can anyone show me a picture of a gps device, with an ON SCREEN shot of its accuracy? I find it terribly suspicious there are no actual quoted figures of accuracy or proof. My iPhone has a great official app, easy to use, and accuracy to within 5metres. Can any device beat this?

 

I have a iPhone4 and had a 3gs but never would substitute the accuracy of my Handheld GPS for the iPhone or for that matter any Smartphone, just not the same. I think most every Handheld GPS is better then using a Smartphone. Case in point just yesterday I went for a FTF on a cache that the coordinates were set with a iPhone, and at the end of the day the CO posted a note updating the coordinates as the originals coords set with the phone were 92 Ft off.

 

Scubasonic

Edited by Scubasonic
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I hear all the time that the iPhone is not as good as a dedicated gps device, but am needing convincing!

 

Can anyone show me a picture of a gps device, with an ON SCREEN shot of its accuracy? I find it terribly suspicious there are no actual quoted figures of accuracy or proof. My iPhone has a great official app, easy to use, and accuracy to within 5metres. Can any device beat this?

 

Accuracy is not the only criteria one might use to determine which GPS is better. I won't get into details about how accuracy is reported but from what I've read, there isn't a "standard" way that all GPS vendors will compute the "accuracy".

 

Here's another test you can make though. Hold an iPhone in one hand and dedicated handheld GPS such as a Garmin Oregon, 60Csx, or one of the other popular Garmin modules in the other. Now walk out into the middle of a stream. Count to three and let got of the iPhone and the Garmin GPS at the same time. Wait one minute then retrieve both devices and attempt to find the nearest cache with each of the devices. It will be quite obvious which one is "better".

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Certainly a smartphone of any type can work just fine under good conditions, the real test comes when the conditions are not good, or even downright bad.

 

Yup. It works great in those conditions too.

 

 

Here's another test you can make though. Hold an iPhone in one hand and dedicated handheld GPS such as a Garmin Oregon, 60Csx, or one of the other popular Garmin modules in the other. Now walk out into the middle of a stream. Count to three and let got of the iPhone and the Garmin GPS at the same time. Wait one minute then retrieve both devices and attempt to find the nearest cache with each of the devices. It will be quite obvious which one is "better".

 

No, it's quite obvious which one is more water proof. That has nothing to do with being better.

But, fwiw, if often cache with my 60csx and iPhone 4s side by side and see almost identical results. Sometimes the iPhone even has better results, most times the 60csx is more consistent. The 60 definitely has better bat life. Better.

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Certainly a smartphone of any type can work just fine under good conditions, the real test comes when the conditions are not good, or even downright bad.

 

Yup. It works great in those conditions too.

 

 

Here's another test you can make though. Hold an iPhone in one hand and dedicated handheld GPS such as a Garmin Oregon, 60Csx, or one of the other popular Garmin modules in the other. Now walk out into the middle of a stream. Count to three and let got of the iPhone and the Garmin GPS at the same time. Wait one minute then retrieve both devices and attempt to find the nearest cache with each of the devices. It will be quite obvious which one is "better".

 

No, it's quite obvious which one is more water proof. That has nothing to do with being better.

 

For those that like to seek caches that might require a walk over varied terrain more than 100 feet from a vehicle a device that is water resistant, and shock resistant is absolutely an important criteria for determining which device is "better" for geocaching. If most of geocaching I did was driving from parking lot to parking lot, lifting a few lamp post skirts, feeling up guard rails, and basically staying close enough to my vehicle should the skies open up with a downpour, I'd could probably get by with just my iPhone, but that's not how I like to cache. Maybe an iPhone is better for *some* geocachers, but there are a lot of geocachers that want something a bit more rugged; something that can withstand a bit inclimate weather, an occasional stream crossing, and a hike up rocky terrain.

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IPhones are not noted for accuracy, no matter what they say. Precision without accuracy is meaninglesss. And, so I play this game while I geocache. If the GPS gets me close (within 12 feet), then it was probably hidden by someone with a good GPS. If the coords are twenty feet off or more, it was probably hidden by someone using a IPhone. Guess what? I'm usually right!

So, try using a dedicated GPS unit, and makelife easeier for the rest of us.

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I'll be honest I got a Magellan Explorist GC for Christmas and I still use my Iphone 4 as a primary and if I am having trouble I go to the Magellan. I just find the Iphone easier to use and at times more versatile and accurate. I know there are purists out there who think the Iphones are rubbish but I've logged a lot more finds with it than the Magellan. I am working with the Magellan, learning it and its nuances but many times I only have an hour or less to Cache on my lunch hour and I am going to go with what I know and that is my Iphone!

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I think that is rather unusual...a thread moved twice by two different moderators? :blink:

 

and back on-topic

 

Another issue to consider is battery life. You can't just pop a new battery into an iPhone. I can pop a new battery into my ANDROID phone, but even at that I wouldn't rely on it as my primary GPS unit for anything beyond a 3-5 mile trek. Sure there are re-charging devices you can use, but do you really want to sit and wait for your battery to recharge? Maybe if you have a solar panel strapped to your head you would be OK.

 

A smartphone is fine for urban, sub-urban, and even rural caching.

When I hit the back country, the phone becomes an 'information device' (paperless caching), and the dedicated GPSr comes out as the navigational device.

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A dedicated GPSr is using satellites whereas an iphone is using cell towers. If you aren't in range of a cell tower, you're f**ked! That is why I will use a GPS until they have affordable sat phones.

 

I was caching with my nephew and his iphone and we weren't more than 5 miles from town and he had no signal. Of course, it was probably because it was AT&T!!

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For those that like to seek caches that might require a walk over varied terrain more than 100 feet from a vehicle a device that is water resistant, and shock resistant is absolutely an important criteria for determining which device is "better" for geocaching. If most of geocaching I did was driving from parking lot to parking lot, lifting a few lamp post skirts, feeling up guard rails, and basically staying close enough to my vehicle should the skies open up with a downpour, I'd could probably get by with just my iPhone, but that's not how I like to cache. Maybe an iPhone is better for *some* geocachers, but there are a lot of geocachers that want something a bit more rugged; something that can withstand a bit inclimate weather, an occasional stream crossing, and a hike up rocky terrain.

 

Hmm. I do plenty of mountain, rainy, rugged, rainy, muddy, rainy, mountain hiking here in the mountains outside of Seattle. In fact, my little town gets almost twice the amount of rain as seattle. That's a lot of rain!

 

Mountains, rain, trees, mud, rain, trees, rain, mud. And Nettles. Plenty of streams... More than 100 ft from my car.

 

And, ...somehow my iPhone works. I cache with my60CSx simultaneously, and If I had to choose which one I'd call "better" it would still be the iPhone.

 

 

A dedicated GPSr is using satellites whereas an iphone is using cell towers. If you aren't in range of a cell tower, you're f**ked! That is why I will use a GPS until they have affordable sat phones.

 

I was caching with my nephew and his iphone and we weren't more than 5 miles from town and he had no signal. Of course, it was probably because it was AT&T!!

 

When I cache, I turn off my wifi and 4g. I turn off all signal. And I cache just fine :rolleyes: oh,and I have AT&T too!

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iPhone??? Well... The thing shatters from a moderate drop onto something hard. Yes a Garmin or magellan can shatter quite easily too, but you have to be much more unlucky. 3mm of Plexiglas (or whatever they use) is way harder to shatter than the actual tempered glass (?) used in an iPhone. I don't know how many iPhones i see everyday which have likely been shattered from ordinary "city use".

 

Water resistance though - Wouldn't worry too much. Smartphones, at least those w/o a physical keyboard, seem to be quite watertight. This has been concluded by several consumer magazines, both iphones and androids can generally take a short dunk into a toilet without apparent water intrusion. Warranty will void though, and don't count on it. There is a reason we have certifications for this.

 

As for the receiver in an iPhone it is probably comparable to any other high performance or high sensitivity machine. iPhone 4 supports Glonass too, if i'm not wrong.

Estimating the accuracy of a device is not so easy as there are many ways to measure it. Are you by accuracy meaning estimated position standard deviation when the apparatus is stationary, is it the capability to repeatedly reproduce a terrain track correctly, etc.

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I've used both and have had much better luck with a dedicated unit than the phone. Occasionally as a group we'll still pull the phone out and typically it's off in its own little world sucking the battery dry. Sometimes it's pointing in entirely the wrong direction here. I prefer to use a dedicated unit when I'm out in the woods or messing around by places with a lot of ore in them (the normal caching locations here) as the dedicated unit seems to handle those issues better in my neck of the woods. I also cache places that are not phone friendly and would rather use a tool that is more equipped to handle damage than the ever so fragile iphone.

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If you are happy using the iphone - then, continue to use it. If you've never used a handheld GPS - then, you obviously won't be missing the accuracy differences.

 

When you've used both iphone & a handheld GPS - then you'll understand. Handheld GPS's are designed and engineered for one thing - being a GPS. A smartphone is designed and engineered primarily to be a PHONE.

Edited by Lieblweb
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I just started caching and have had reasonable success with my iPhone 4 but I'm thinking of investing in a dedicated GPS.

 

For one, using GPS apps drains my battery big time. Secondly, on all day hunts I don't want to be limited by battery life. It's not bad at all, but having the option to swap out batteries makes a dedicated GPS a better choice.

 

The only knock on GPS for me is price. I don't want a bottom of the barrel unit but at the same time I'm on a budget. I'm guessing GPS units of all sorts have been discussed here so I'll search the forum for more info.

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Wow, of the smartphone/iphone threads recently this one seems to take the cake for most anti-iPhone sentiment and misinformation :P

 

Once again, do not label all iPhones with the same quality. The 4S is eons improved over the 3G, for instance.

 

No one is or has ever said that the "iPhone" is better than any and all dedicated GPS devices. As posted near the beginning, a dedicated "anything" will be (all things being equal) better than a do-everything jack of all trades.

 

That said, the 4S can rival high end dedicated GPSs for accuracy and speed. I wouldn't, however, purchase a dedicated GPS that performs worse than an iPhone 4S. I would not recommend a 3G for caching, and I would recommend against the 3GS (though I cached for almost 2 years with it exclusively myself) now that the 4 and 4S are available.

 

I have cached exclusively with the iPhone - 3GS, then since October the 4S - since spring 2009. I've cached in desert, over water, through caves, under forest canopy, in the wilderness - both natural and urban (not under water though :P)

 

Primary points:

1) High end dedicated GPS devices should always prove faster and more accurate than any iPhone.

2) The iPhone provides far more flexibility, usability, and features

3) The iPhone (4 and above) are more than sufficient for geocaching, provided you use it properly (as with any device)

4) You cannot rate GPS device accuracy by how fast people find a geocache. You cannot take into account potential error in placement of the geocache and its reported coordinates by the CO! If the posted coordinates are off, then it's the inaccurate device that may find it first!

4b) You can only really test GPS device accuracy by comparing to recently tested and verified benchmarks and such, devices side by side, simultaneously

5) iPhones do not use cell towers exclusively, the recent models use standard satellite GPS.

5b) Cell tower location enhancement improves response and reading time.

6) You do not need a data connection to make use of GPS on the iPhone 3GS and above (as per my experience caching in a desert, having preloaded necessary maps)

 

Please keep in mind that the "accuracy" number displayed on your device, is only an "estimate" - if the device accurately knew it's true error, it would just make the adjustment and give you zero error. But it can only estimate. An engineer at Apple, or Garmin, or wherever, could adjust the algorithm used to come up with that estimate, to give a nice low number, however it still wouldn't make the device any more accurate.

Also this.

Add in a margin of unknown error for posted coordinate accuracy of geocache waypoints, and you're really left with honing and relying on geosense at GZ more than anything else.

 

The real test of accuracy is how well others can find a cache hidden with a given device.

Nope. For the reasons I stated above.

 

I find that in the real world, most caches hidden by someone with a smartphone, the coordinates are a couple of dozen feet off or more. Consistently.

Which smartphone? Which brand? Which model? How much experience? How much knowledge of the device? How much testing? It's unfortunate that that's been your experience (providing you've verified for a fact that it's primarily those geocaches that have been placed with "smartphones" that are inaccurate). Either those geocachers need to be taught how to place caches, or they should upgrade their devices, whether to better smartphones or dedicated GPSs.

 

It's unfair and inaccurate to brand all "smartphones" as sub-par due to either technological differences or lack of user skill.

 

I still love seeing oodles of logs on caches from people claiming GZ accuracy anywhere from spot on, to way off. Well, which is it?! :lol:

 

Geocaches placed with high end dedicated GPS devices can also be inaccurate if the user doesn't know what they're doing.

 

Remember I'm not blanketing all smartphones as better than GPS devices, nor vice versa. Simply saying that the question has no simple answer beyond a "generally speaking" blanket claim.

 

Oh, also, I did drop my first 3GS in a pond. Lost it to the H2O effect. Later I dropped my 2nd 3GS in the water, and it survived more than a year through my upgrade to the 4S. User stupidity aside, depending on the degree of damage, if dealt with carefully and properly, a smartphone can survive brief submersion.

Just don't test the device unexpectedly :P

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Lets go Geocaching in the heavy rain that fell over the weekend in the Black Hills of South Dakota - over the rocks and slick grass and leaves and numerous mud puddles. We will let my 6 year old "carry" the devices. I think you'll see why the iphone is not ideal after a bit. :P

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Lets go Geocaching in the heavy rain that fell over the weekend in the Black Hills of South Dakota - over the rocks and slick grass and leaves and numerous mud puddles. We will let my 6 year old "carry" the devices. I think you'll see why the iphone is not ideal after a bit. :P

um, then I wouldn't let my 6 year old "carry" the devices.

If you want to, then I presume you'd purchase the necessary protection for the devices - whether smart phones or dedicated handhelds.

 

Common sense rules the day! :P

 

I have gone caching, with my case-less iPhone, through mud and pouring and rain, and I do my utmost to protect my device. I'm one of the very few people who own such a valuable piece of hardware who has not yet purchased a protective case.

 

It still works.

Because I treat it, and protect it accordingly

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I have cached exclusively with the iPhone - 3GS, then since October the 4S - since spring 2009. I've cached in desert, over water, through caves, under forest canopy, in the wilderness - both natural and urban (not under water though :P)

 

I've kayaked with it. It got decently wet but had no problems. Of course, it gets wet frequently here, and when I wipe it off on my pants it always activites Siri!

Lets go Geocaching in the heavy rain that fell over the weekend in the Black Hills of South Dakota - over the rocks and slick grass and leaves and numerous mud puddles. We will let my 6 year old "carry" the devices. I think you'll see why the iphone is not ideal after a bit. :P

 

Ok. I'll geocache with it in SD. I've been stuck out in some terrible monsoons in Az, so actually I'm quite familiar with real rainfall. Also, cached with it in Hawaii. Plenty of rain there too. So sure, I'll cache in the black hills. Sounds fun.

 

But, if I'm being honest. I bet my little mountains here are FAR more rocky, slick grassy with leaves than the black hills. If your 6 year old can make the terrain, then my iphone will have no problems, lol.

 

ETA: The higest T rating on your SD caches was 2.5, with an average being closer to 1.5. so yeah, my iphone will have no problems there.

 

um, then I wouldn't let my 6 year old "carry" the devices.

If you want to, then I presume you'd purchase the necessary protection for the devices - whether smart phones or dedicated handhelds.

 

Common sense rules the day! :P

 

I have gone caching, with my case-less iPhone, through mud and pouring and rain, and I do my utmost to protect my device. I'm one of the very few people who own such a valuable piece of hardware who has not yet purchased a protective case.

 

It still works.

Because I treat it, and protect it accordingly

 

No real case for me either. Just a sleek metal one for show. No screen protector. I know how to handle my device.

Edited by JesandTodd
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Black Hills 2.5 terrain isn't much like the average 2.5 elsewhere (based on my experiences anyway). One them rated at 1.5 terrain included climbing up a steep boulder covered hillside that I'd easily give a 3 or 3.5 terrain to around my home.

 

The point is - I can let my 6 year carry my dedicated GPS, drop it on a rock or 2 or in a mud puddle or down a rain soaked hillside - and I know when I pick it up, it will still be fine.

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I hear all the time that the iPhone is not as good as a dedicated gps device, but am needing convincing!

 

Can anyone show me a picture of a gps device, with an ON SCREEN shot of its accuracy? I find it terribly suspicious there are no actual quoted figures of accuracy or proof. My iPhone has a great official app, easy to use, and accuracy to within 5metres. Can any device beat this?

 

Accuracy is not the only criteria one might use to determine which GPS is better. I won't get into details about how accuracy is reported but from what I've read, there isn't a "standard" way that all GPS vendors will compute the "accuracy".

 

Here's another test you can make though. Hold an iPhone in one hand and dedicated handheld GPS such as a Garmin Oregon, 60Csx, or one of the other popular Garmin modules in the other. Now walk out into the middle of a stream. Count to three and let got of the iPhone and the Garmin GPS at the same time. Wait one minute then retrieve both devices and attempt to find the nearest cache with each of the devices. It will be quite obvious which one is "better".

 

Or try this one. Hit the trail at 8 a.m., hike all day finding caches along the way and see which device is still working at 4 p.m.

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@JesandTodd

 

Whoa !......, you can't have it both ways......

 

Which is true...that you have "dropped it numerous times" or that you "know how to handle your device"?

 

One "drop" where I hike and you would be using the "replacement device" for your carelessly "dropped

device" ....

Wow ee ! even dropped down (probably carpeted) stairs! How would that compare to down a 250-500ft rocky slope....?

 

In 17 years of GPSing (Hiking,ATVing,Snowmobiling,biking) I have truthfully NEVER dropped ANY of my units even ONCE) Skinned hands, knees, shins, elbows, bruised ribs....yes....., but NO unit damage even in very harsh environments.

 

.......either you REALLY take care of your stuff or maybe you're just impressed with your "wussy" phone.

 

Yep...Just in case you were wondering, that's how I REALLY feel.....

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@JesandTodd

 

Whoa !......, you can't have it both ways......

 

Which is true...that you have "dropped it numerous times" or that you "know how to handle your device"?

 

One "drop" where I hike and you would be using the "replacement device" for your carelessly "dropped

device" ....

Wow ee ! even dropped down (probably carpeted) stairs! How would that compare to down a 250-500ft rocky slope....?

 

In 17 years of GPSing (Hiking,ATVing,Snowmobiling,biking) I have truthfully NEVER dropped ANY of my units even ONCE) Skinned hands, knees, shins, elbows, bruised ribs....yes....., but NO unit damage even in very harsh environments.

 

.......either you REALLY take care of your stuff or maybe you're just impressed with your "wussy" phone.

 

Yep...Just in case you were wondering, that's how I REALLY feel.....

Whoa! A little bitter are we? :rolleyes: Lol

 

Haha. I'm human and not perfect. I've dropped many things and yet try to be as careful as possible. If that's all you got to try to discredit my experiences with my iphone, well then, good for you. Kinda pathetic, but ok...

 

Wussy phone? Lol. Careful, your colors are showing.

Edited by JesandTodd
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Or try this one. Hit the trail at 8 a.m., hike all day finding caches along the way and see which device is still working at 4 p.m.

Yep, done that too. Like anyone with any device that requires batteries, I take extra when using it for extended periods. No problem in the slightest. Does the iPhone need more juice? Sure, because it's doing more than just GPS tracking. But every device needs different amounts of juice. Do I find that the cost of the extra juice (really there is none since I use rechargeable batteries) is worth it? Absolutely!

 

Common sense - Preparation, regardless of device.

 

Whoa !......, you can't have it both ways......

Which is true...that you have "dropped it numerous times" or that you "know how to handle your device"?

[...]

.......either you REALLY take care of your stuff or maybe you're just impressed with your "wussy" phone.

I'm impressed and happy for you that you have never dropped or damaged your device. Equally impressed that you've never being the victim of an accident. Additionally equally impressed that 'accidents' don't even seem to enter your equation :)

 

Yes, they can both be true. Just as they say you can't be a leader until you've experienced failure, I'm quite glad that accidents happen, as it helps us better prepare and understand the risks in how to best handle our devices.

Accidents happen. Unfortunately accidents don't discriminate by device brand or model. They can happen to anyone, anywhere, any time (that's why they're called accidents) - unless you're one of the rare lucky ones who've never experienced one.

 

Know how to handle your device. Be prepared as best you can for accidents.

 

Common sense, once again, rules the day ;)

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ok. But I can carry my iphone in my back pocket and still be fine.

Little hard to follow the arrow, read descriptions, select caches and the like from back there isn't it?? B)

 

Read cache description, look at trail, see how far I have to go, put in back pocket until I feel I get close to GZ. Why would I need it out if the cache far away.

 

If next cache is 0.3 up the trail, I'll look at the topo map for features, maybe see when the trail turns, and not get the phone back out until I get to those points.

 

Then I get close, I'll get the phone back out, pick my GZ, and the phone goes back in the pocket. I search using my geosense once I get within 20 ft. I'll only use it again to log my field notes and pick my next cache.

 

So yea, the majority of my time it's in my back pocket.

 

ETA: you know, when I cached in the desert and had little topo features to work with, and had no trails, I used the phone much more. But I still tended to walk about 0.1 mi before checking it.

Edited by JesandTodd
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ok. But I can carry my iphone in my back pocket and still be fine.

You've never slipped & landed on your backside?

 

Yes, I have. And the phone slipped out and down a muddy cliff. I'll see if I can find the log. Brutal. I was actually injured pretty good there. I hurt my shoulder and was bleeding. I just slipped down the rainy grassy cliffy hill.

 

The iphone landed in a mud pile a ways down the hill, and the area where I plug it in was filled with mud.

 

The phone was fine though.

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The point we're saying here is not that the iPhone is the best device.

 

What I'm saying is that blanketing all iPhones (or smartphones) as inferior is misleading and incorrect.

 

There are many factors which determine quality and value in a device and its use in the context of geocaching.

 

Is there a greater chance that a dedicated gps device can provide a better experience geocaching? Of course. But to say that it's always better to use a dedicated gps device rather than an iPhone is simply wrong.

 

We're just providing examples and context in why that statement is false. We prefer to help users make an informed decision, either way, based on a little more digging into their habits and styles and financial capabilities. And if desired, a little more help in how best to use the device to its potential.

 

Most common arguments I see against "smartphones":

 

1) "smartphones use more battery" - Solution: external pack + rechargeables. One time cost. Backside: same problem and solution applies to GPSrs

 

2) "smartphones are slower" - Answer: Faster smartphones are faster. Slower smartphones are slower. Find one having a speed you're comfortable with geocaching. Or get a GPSr (better make sure it's faster than the smartphone alternative though!)

 

3) "smartphones are less accurate" - Answer: More accurate smartphones are more accurate. Less accurate smartphones are less accurate. So are less skilled users. So are bad coordinates. So are dedicated devices used incorrectly. So are regions and environments with bad reception and other conditions. So are impatient people. Smartphones don't guarantee less accurate coordinates. Dedicated GPSs don't guarantee more accurate coordinates.

 

4) "geocaches placed with smartphones are 30-40 or more feet off" - Answer: a) WOW. These days, presuming a relatively recent model, that is definitely not hardware, and is certain to be user error more often than not. b ) Have you verified every single cache you've found to determine accuracy and which device was used to place? c) using a dedicated GPS device does not guarantee accurate listing coordinates.

 

5) "smartphones are more fragile" - Answer: Accidents happen. Regardless of device. Have you appropriately applied protection to the device you use, to protect against whatever damage would be sufficient to harm it, given your common usage of it? If not, why not?!

 

On the other hand, some of the best arguments against smartphone use I've seen:

 

1) "It's easier to provide inaccurate coordinates when placing caches" - Answer: True, because as a multi-purpose tool, it's not dedicated to GPS reading. But the latest models are crazy accurate, and with enough knowledge and coordinate verification, coordinates can indeed be spot on. -- Use the same processes ALL geocachers should use, regardless of device, to ensure as accurate a coordinate reading as possible when placing a cache for others to find.

 

2) "It can take longer to find a geocache with a smartphone" - Answer: True, because as a multi-purpose tool, it's not dedicated to GPS reading, so it could take a little longer to narrow down the estimated accuracy sufficiently. But the latest models include cell tower triangulation with GPS reading to help speed up the process. Smartphones may also have a plethora of useful apps to help counter the variant lack of accuracy one might experience, if one isn't satisfied with under a couple of meters accuracy for geocaching -- like interactive overhead maps of many styles.

 

3) "Being a more valuable device, it may be more feasible to use an outdoors-purposed handheld device to minimize risk of damage" - Answer: Yep! And if not, then just make sure your smartphone is protected sufficiently, either for the environment into which you're taking it, or generally if you can be rough with it in regular use. -- Same goes for any expensive mobile device, really.

 

These are related all to the process of geocaching and/or issues of common sense.

These are answered by adjusting and/or improving your geocaching style.

These are only guides for people who are willing to do as much. If not, then don't get a smartphone :P But don't say that smartphones are incapable or inferior to dedicated handhelds, especially across the board ;) Help educate the people who pull down those stats.

 

...I won't even start listing all the additional benefits of having a smartphone on hand :lol:

 

* Ultimately, for smartphones, I highly recommend the iPhone 4S, and maybe latest hardware models of windows or android phones, with demonstrably improved GPS capability (though I don't have hands-on experience with them, only friends who cache with them).

* When placing caches, follow the same principles all geocachers should use when determining accurate coordinates - test, re-test, verify against other sources, check with maps, return to gz over a few days, average readings, etc, rinse repeat until you feel you're satisfied with the result.

* If someone offers what they consider better coordinates for your listing, don't presume they are accurate, but put them through the same rigorous test you put yours.

* Understand that you can't control accuracy of listing coordinates, and understand that regardless of device, that shortfall applies to all geocachers. Hone your geosense instead of blaming device accuracy (especially that of devices you don't like :P)

 

And finally, don't listen to naysayers - whether you prefer a dedicated device or a smartphone or both ;) Make an informed decision for yourself based on input from people who have extensive experience and seem as knowledgeable and trustworthy and unbiased as possible.

(for instance, I'll help with iPhone caching, but don't ask me for experienced input on other smartphone models, or the ins and outs of other dedicated gps devices :laughing: All I know is that there's even rivalries between brand supporters! Garmin, Magellan, Lowrance, TomTom, etc blah blah)

 

But I do think there's one thing everyone can agree on:

The best geocaching toolkit will contain both a high end dedicated GPS device and an iPhone 4S* :anibad:

 

(* or whichever smartphone with quality GPS capability about which you're just as fanatical as I )

Edited by thebruce0
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ok. But I can carry my iphone in my back pocket and still be fine.

You've never slipped & landed on your backside?

 

Yes, I have. And the phone slipped out and down a muddy cliff. I'll see if I can find the log. Brutal. I was actually injured pretty good there. I hurt my shoulder and was bleeding. I just slipped down the rainy grassy cliffy hill.

 

The iphone landed in a mud pile a ways down the hill, and the area where I plug it in was filled with mud.

 

The phone was fine though.

Incidentally, the phones I baptised in water were resting in my breast pocket both times.

Suffice to say I no longer temporarily store my phone in my breast pocket :blink: (when over water at least =)

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The point we're saying here is not that the iPhone is the best device.

 

What I'm saying is that blanketing all iPhones (or smartphones) as inferior is misleading and incorrect.

 

There are many factors which determine quality and value in a device and its use in the context of geocaching.

 

Is there a greater chance that a dedicated gps device can provide a better experience geocaching? Of course. But to say that it's always better to use a dedicated gps device rather than an iPhone is simply wrong.

 

We're just providing examples and context in why that statement is false. We prefer to help users make an informed decision, either way, based on a little more digging into their habits and styles and financial capabilities. And if desired, a little more help in how best to use the device to its potential.

 

Most common arguments I see against "smartphones":

 

1) "smartphones use more battery" - Solution: external pack + rechargeables. One time cost. Backside: same problem and solution applies to GPSrs

 

2) "smartphones are slower" - Answer: Faster smartphones are faster. Slower smartphones are slower. Find one having a speed you're comfortable with geocaching. Or get a GPSr (better make sure it's faster than the smartphone alternative though!)

 

3) "smartphones are less accurate" - Answer: More accurate smartphones are more accurate. Less accurate smartphones are less accurate. So are less skilled users. So are bad coordinates. So are dedicated devices used incorrectly. So are regions and environments with bad reception and other conditions. So are impatient people. Smartphones don't guarantee less accurate coordinates. Dedicated GPSs don't guarantee more accurate coordinates.

 

4) "geocaches placed with smartphones are 30-40 or more feet off" - Answer: a) WOW. These days, presuming a relatively recent model, that is definitely not hardware, and is certain to be user error more often than not. b ) Have you verified every single cache you've found to determine accuracy and which device was used to place? c) using a dedicated GPS device does not guarantee accurate listing coordinates.

 

5) "smartphones are more fragile" - Answer: Accidents happen. Regardless of device. Have you appropriately applied protection to the device you use, to protect against whatever damage would be sufficient to harm it, given your common usage of it? If not, why not?!

 

On the other hand, some of the best arguments against smartphone use I've seen:

 

1) "It's easier to provide inaccurate coordinates when placing caches" - Answer: True, because as a multi-purpose tool, it's not dedicated to GPS reading. But the latest models are crazy accurate, and with enough knowledge and coordinate verification, coordinates can indeed be spot on. -- Use the same processes ALL geocachers should use, regardless of device, to ensure as accurate a coordinate reading as possible when placing a cache for others to find.

 

2) "It can take longer to find a geocache with a smartphone" - Answer: True, because as a multi-purpose tool, it's not dedicated to GPS reading, so it could take a little longer to narrow down the estimated accuracy sufficiently. But the latest models include cell tower triangulation with GPS reading to help speed up the process. Smartphones may also have a plethora of useful apps to help counter the variant lack of accuracy one might experience, if one isn't satisfied with under a couple of meters accuracy for geocaching -- like interactive overhead maps of many styles.

 

3) "Being a more valuable device, it may be more feasible to use an outdoors-purposed handheld device to minimize risk of damage" - Answer: Yep! And if not, then just make sure your smartphone is protected sufficiently, either for the environment into which you're taking it, or generally if you can be rough with it in regular use. -- Same goes for any expensive mobile device, really.

 

These are related all to the process of geocaching and/or issues of common sense.

These are answered by adjusting and/or improving your geocaching style.

These are only guides for people who are willing to do as much. If not, then don't get a smartphone :P But don't say that smartphones are incapable or inferior to dedicated handhelds, especially across the board ;) Help educate the people who pull down those stats.

 

...I won't even start listing all the additional benefits of having a smartphone on hand :lol:

 

* Ultimately, for smartphones, I highly recommend the iPhone 4S, and maybe latest hardware models of windows or android phones, with demonstrably improved GPS capability (though I don't have hands-on experience with them, only friends who cache with them).

* When placing caches, follow the same principles all geocachers should use when determining accurate coordinates - test, re-test, verify against other sources, check with maps, return to gz over a few days, average readings, etc, rinse repeat until you feel you're satisfied with the result.

* If someone offers what they consider better coordinates for your listing, don't presume they are accurate, but put them through the same rigorous test you put yours.

* Understand that you can't control accuracy of listing coordinates, and understand that regardless of device, that shortfall applies to all geocachers. Hone your geosense instead of blaming device accuracy (especially that of devices you don't like :P)

 

And finally, don't listen to naysayers - whether you prefer a dedicated device or a smartphone or both ;) Make an informed decision for yourself based on input from people who have extensive experience and seem as knowledgeable and trustworthy and unbiased as possible.

(for instance, I'll help with iPhone caching, but don't ask me for experienced input on other smartphone models, or the ins and outs of other dedicated gps devices :laughing: All I know is that there's even rivalries between brand supporters! Garmin, Magellan, Lowrance, TomTom, etc blah blah)

 

But I do think there's one thing everyone can agree on:

The best geocaching toolkit will contain both a high end dedicated GPS device and an iPhone 4S* :anibad:

 

(* or whichever smartphone with quality GPS capability about which you're just as fanatical as I )

 

When I oringinally posted this thread, I had no idea how big a debate I would start.

 

However, this is a very good, no, BRILLIANT post and bruce, you are my new favourite geocacher. You make some very good points, and I have to agree the iPhone 4S is amazing, especially when you compare to the old 3GS. (by the way, I once dropped my 3GS in a river in Exmoor, and although I had to disassemble it, dry it, then reassemble it, it was fine).

 

Would you agree bruce, or anyone for that matter, a dedicated gps alongside an iPhone 4S would be a good thing™?

 

Oh, and as for choosing one, I quite like the look of the Dakota 20. Is that useful?

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Dropping an iphone into a stream - $700

Dropping a high-end GPS into a stream - $0

Needing the phone to call for help because you broke your leg falling into the stream ....priceless!!

 

When out in the woods - my phone stays in a drybox on a lanyard around my neck. Our GPS is on a lanyard around my husbands neck. Can't take any chances. It's much easier replacing a $300+ GPS than it is replacing a $700 phone.

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But I do think there's one thing everyone can agree on:

The best geocaching toolkit will contain both a high end dedicated GPS device and an iPhone 4S* :anibad:

 

(* or whichever smartphone with quality GPS capability about which you're just as fanatical as I )

 

I would agree... Smartphone and a gps device. Yes.

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Dropping an iphone into a stream - $700

Dropping a high-end GPS into a stream - $0

Needing the phone to call for help because you broke your leg falling into the stream ....priceless!!

 

When out in the woods - my phone stays in a drybox on a lanyard around my neck. Our GPS is on a lanyard around my husbands neck. Can't take any chances. It's much easier replacing a $300+ GPS than it is replacing a $700 phone.

This is exactly why I'm hesitant to keep my phone as my primary GPS. Since I'm new I've completed fairly easy, urban searches with a few in the woods so it hasn't been a big deal.

 

Last week I was searching for a cache by a creek. According to the trail map there was quite a long walk involved (which I didn't mind) but the direct path involved shimmying across a fallen tree to the other side. My adventurous side said "go for it!" but after considering possibly falling, injuring myself, ruining my $700 phone and being stranded I decided to enjoy the walk. :)

 

If I had a waterproof GPS I may have been more apt to take the chance. While I save up for a GPS I think I'll pick up a drybox for just such a situation.

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