Geocaching Attributes List.

1.4k · December 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Pharisee:

quote:
It would also be good to see an attribute for "nearby pub serving fine ale" (ducks and runs for cover .......... )

Dave

That surely gets my vote

John

And mine

Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

20.7k · December 9, 2002

Would we want an attribute for 'theme' caches? Having it would nudge you to read the description carefully so you bring the correct trink.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

December 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Stunod:

quote:
How could the cache owner possibly know whether _your_ cell phone service is supported?

Isn't that why there is a "roaming" feature? You'll pay extra to use another service provider's equipment.

_

Back in the analog days this was true. In the digital age this doesn't always work. Different carriers use different "flavors" of digital encryption methods, making it impossible to use a incompatible phone on their system. Plus different phones use different parts of the spectrum.

Examples from the Las Vegas area:

AT&T phones operate in the 800MHz range for their analog service and 1900MHz for digital. They use TDMA as the encryption.

Cingular and T-Mobile use only digital, and only in the 1900 band. They both use GSM, and are compatible with each other.

Verison uses 800 for analog, 900 for some digital and 1900 for others. They use CDMA.

SprintPCS also uses CDMA in the 1900MHz band, but is still not compatible with Verison.

So, this means that one can not use a Verison phone on AT&T, SprintPCS, Cingular or T-mobiles networks, and vice versa.

Now, roaming allows you to use your phone in other markets, but only if a signal is provided by a company that uses the same technology in the same band as your home provider.

Confused yet?

Now try and use your phone in other countries

Shannon

VegasCacheHounds

5.2k · December 9, 2002

Wouldn't it be nice if we could wrap up the GPX stuff before we embark on another project like this?

Lil Devil

December 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Lil Devil:
Wouldn't it be nice if we could wrap up the GPX stuff before we embark on another project like this?

We did.

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
I think I'm done.

December 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by sbell111:
Would we want an attribute for 'theme' caches? Having it would nudge you to read the description carefully so you bring the correct trink.

If people don't read the cache page, they don't read the cache page. I personally double-dog-dare them to come find the soon-to-be better than ever "False Profits".

Frankly, if someone doesn't read the description(s), they are asking to be burned. Not that it's a bad thing to do -- some people like the thrill of going into something utterly unprepared. It makes for a much less predictable hunt, but if they want to go in without reading the description, there's no reason to add yet another description for them to not read.

Cache attributes are not meant to be yet another description; they're meant to allow people to more easily find caches of the style that interests them. We don't need attributes to duplicate the existing decriptive elements of the cache reports. It's all too easy to fall into the trap of reinventing the wheel with cache attributes -- they need to remain a distinct entity with a distinct use if they are to become as useful as they can be.

1.1k · December 9, 2002

Some observations:

1. Please, no discussion about how the solution will be accomplished programically. It is irrelevant to the current conversation. You can view the current Groundspeak:cache namespace if you want to see how attributes will be listed.

2. We're only talking about attributes. Off-topic suggestions like permission-based caches is not part of this discussion.

I'm siding with ClayJar and his posts. The assumption you make on any cache page is that the cache owner is not providing any attributes. If they are aware of some specific attribute for the cache area, they should select that item so others know, but it is not required. Many caches previously entered will most likely not be updated by the cache owners.

I'll comment on ScooterJ's cache icons since I believe many of them are appropriate. It's also a good starting point. ScooterJ, I applaud your work and am not criticizing it in the least.

As a dog owner, these are important to me (and other dog owners). Although it may seem redundant, there are a rare few off-leash dog areas in many states, so it is necessary to list. If you are the cache owner and don't know about the restrictions, don't list it.

Leashed dogs are welcome

Off-leash dog area

Dogs are not permitted

As for seasonal caches, I like that idea as well. ScooterJ have two appropriate ones:

Not available year-round

Restricted hours

Fee area is great, so you know to bring a pocketbook.

Fee area

As for terrain attributes, the terrain/difficulty ratings should suffice for most. Same goes for distance to the cache (though I would suggest the use of the car cache indicator).

Less than 500 feet from car to cache

I would also suggest adding some items that require special equipment, specifically:

Easy climbing required

Skilled climbing required

Cave

Flashlight required

Boat Required

As for warnings, I would probably leave these out. Since there are inherent risks with geocaching, and the assumption is that there are many different approaches to a cache, it would be difficult to determine one cache being difficult over another. Perhaps some kind of "Read notes" attribute should be created which would be a miscellaneous attribute so people know to read the description before seeking it out. It would have an "i" icon for information.

Lastly (and not leastly), the handicapped icons are important. As a non-handicapped individual, however, it would be difficult for me to determine whether a cache would be accessible. I suppose the assumption is you can mostly get there and someone you are with can seek it out? A cache slightly off a paved biking trail is wheelchair accessable up to the point where you get near the cache, but if you were wheelchair-ridden you wouldn't be able to retrieve it. That's why I like these attributes:

Accessible area

May or may not be accessible depending on abilities

I'm not sure about disabled access not available since most caches will be this way.

The rest on ScooterJ's sites are interesting but unneccessary in my opinion. Knowing there is a bathroom or that drinking water is available doesn't seem to be important in the scheme of things.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

1.1k · December 9, 2002

One more attribute to consider... The puzzle attribute seems like a good one since it may deter folks from finding it (or encourage others to only find them). Indicating some kind of puzzle is involved may be helpful, though it also may be redundant since most multicaches in themselves are puzzle caches. Thoughts?

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

1.7k · December 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
Indicating some kind of puzzle is involved may be helpful, though it also may be redundant since most multicaches in themselves are puzzle caches. Thoughts?

It may be true that multicache implies puzzle cache (though I'm not sure of that one; around here it seems to mostly imply "lame quiz-based cache.")

However, even if that is true, it is not necessarily the case that all puzzle caches are multicaches. There is one, for example, where the puzzle is a Cross Sums-style puzzle in the cache description. There's FizzyMagic's ugly exploding-airplane cache. There's Shortwave, which isn't really a multicache even though you have to find at least one other cache to find it.

8.9k · December 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
As for terrain attributes, the terrain/difficulty ratings should suffice for most. Same goes for distance to the cache (though I would suggest the use of the car cache indicator).

Less than 500 feet from car to cache

Wouldn't that be solved by the implementation of Parking Coordinates?

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

2.6k · December 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
Indicating some kind of puzzle is involved may be helpful, though it also may be redundant since most multicaches in themselves are puzzle caches. Thoughts?

Jeremy these are right here in our area. They are single stage cache puzzles that you more than likely have to research at home before you search for them.

What a novel idea.

Sawmill you have some internet things to do before you can get the coords.

Leonardos Templates were all single stage caches that had puzzles that had to be worked out before you went. They were a series but they were single stage caches.

Another internet puzzle

Hacker cache.

North Creek is multi you have to take some collage courses to figure out.

I don't see how a multi cache is a puzzle. A traditional Multi is just several caches in a row. No puzzle to that. Many hiders incorporate puzzles into there multi caches but not always.

If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

December 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
The puzzle attribute seems like a good one since it may deter folks from finding it (or encourage others to only find them). Indicating some kind of puzzle is involved may be helpful, though it also may be redundant since most multicaches in themselves are puzzle caches.

Well, let me think... I can certainly see people enjoying puzzle-type caches. While multi-caches and virtuals *can be* puzzle caches, not all are, and I think the puzzle ones really *do* have a quality that sets them apart from just normal (multi-)caches.

We have several multi-caches around my area that are straightforward multis. They start with micros, and each micro points to the next until you get to a regular container. Then we have at least one cache where the intermediate steps actually end before you get to the cache, and you have to actually figure out where to go from there using just what you've seen so far. That throws a rather significant curve into the hunt, and I can see it being a cache attribute.

I can see the "Puzzle" cache attribute being used perhaps more often or less precisely than the other cache attributes, but I'm leaning toward considering the benefits greater than the drawbacks. Those who want to hunt puzzle caches may have to pick and choose from among the "Puzzle" cache attributed list, but they may at least have a much better starting point.

1.6k · December 9, 2002

Okay, so I've only got a toe in the water, but...

when you are describing an attribute in the GPX file are you describing it in:

dogs allowed on leash, compass required

-or-

allowed on leash

compass ?

CR

December 9, 2002

A cache attribute, I would like to search on is the last date the cache was located or at least a range of dates maybe ranging from 1 week to greater than 4 weeks. This would give me an idea if a cache had been located in recent history.

Madog "Discover of America"

December 9, 2002

Jeremy -

Would you consider Increased Difficulty with Snow cover. different from Sesonal Availability ?

December 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:
when you are describing an attribute in the GPX file are you describing it in:

dogs allowed on leash, compass required

-or-

allowed on leash

compass ?

No.

It would look more like:

<Groundspeak:cache>  <Groundspeak:attributes>    <Groundspeak:attribute id="42">Puzzle Cache</Groundspeak:attribute>    <Groundspeak:attribute id="007">Boat Required</Groundspeak:attribute>  </Groundspeak:attributes></Groundspeak:cache>

quote:
Originally posted by Madog:
A cache attribute, I would like to search on is the last date the cache was located or at least a range of dates maybe ranging from 1 week to greater than 4 weeks. This would give me an idea if a cache had been located in recent history.

Cache attributes are about the cache (as hidden, you could say), not about the finders. However, you can look at the dates on the logs in the GPX file, which will tell you the same information. (Unless it hasn't been found by any of the last logging cachers, which would be equally useful to know.)

December 9, 2002

I'd like to see which brand and model of GPS was used by the cache owner. I've done some caches by the same owner where the coordinates were 30-50' different than my unit. I've also done some where the coordinates were almost identical. Given this information, I could determine whether to expect to be right on the mark or off by many feet.

1.1k · December 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by JetSkier:
I'd like to see which brand and model of GPS was used by the cache owner.

Great idea but it's off-topic. I'll see if I can post another message on new features to cache descriptions.

Yes and no about parking coordinates. Yes, parking coordinates are nice but we're talking about a cache results page for a quick glance. Many folks travel on business and have a limited amount of time to find a local cache, so car caches are desirable. So no this wouldn't work well.

As an aside, parking coordinates fit better as an uploaded GPX file with additional cache features people can download. I have been considering such a capability for the future. But please discuss in another topic.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

1.1k · December 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Madog:
A cache attribute, I would like to search on is the last date the cache was located or at least a range of dates maybe ranging from 1 week to greater than 4 weeks.

Not a cache attribute.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

1.1k · December 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Centaur:
Jeremy -

Would you consider _Increased Difficulty with Snow cover._ different from _Sesonal Availability_ ?

I'd like it to be more broad, like "Difficulty changes based on weather conditions." Though something less verbose would be nice.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

December 10, 2002

quote:
I'd like it to be more broad, like "Difficulty changes based on weather conditions." Though something less verbose would be nice.

How about "Weather affects difficulty" or "Difficulty is Weather Dependent?"

1.6k · December 10, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by ClayJar:

It would look more like:

<Groundspeak:cache>  <Groundspeak:attributes>    <Groundspeak:attribute id="42">Puzzle Cache</Groundspeak:attribute>    <Groundspeak:attribute id="007">Boat Required</Groundspeak:attribute>  </Groundspeak:attributes></Groundspeak:cache>

Oh, okay. The "id" will correspond with the text in it i.e. in your example above the id of 42 means "Puzzle Cache" and 007 means "Boat Required."

Reason I ask, if I'm converting the GPX into a flatfile I can have a single field "attributes" and capture all of the attributes regardless if new ones come along. Then I can search on the attributes field like a keywords field for certain attributes.

CR

December 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by VegasCacheHounds:
Confused yet?

Now try and use your phone in other countries

VegasCacheHounds

Actually it's quite simple in the rest of the world outside North America. Everyone uses GSM and a GSM phone will use whatever network it can find and although there are a few different frequencies in use most phones are dual band. In some instances when you are in your own country you may not be able to get a signal from your own provider's network, but emergency calls (911/999/112 etc) will work with any network.

Having said that my own experience would seem to indicate different phones may or may not work in marginal reception areas. The recent trend towards phones with internal antenna has a downside in that they typically don't work so well in marginal signal areas as older phones with external antennas. But fortunatly for us European geocachers even in very remote areas you can often get a signal, especially from high ground. In fact I read somewhere that the majority of calls to mountain rescue orginate from mobile phones.

As the issue is not so clear cut, it might just be better to add a note to the cache description to the effect that the cache is located in an area with non-existant mobile phone reception.

*******************************************************

Don't mention the mushrooms

*******************************************************

December 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by DiscoJason:

quote:
I'd like it to be more broad, like "Difficulty changes based on weather conditions." Though something less verbose would be nice.

How about "Weather affects difficulty" or "Difficulty is Weather Dependent?"

But almost *all* our caches in Louisiana are highly weather-dependant. We lost several due to hurricanes and tropical storms this year, and even more were lost or rendered inaccessible for long periods of time due to flooding. Then there's the rain that makes it virtually impossible to get through the clayish mud to the cache. Anyway, not saying it's not a good idea, but I'm trying to see how being weather-dependant is anything special.

1.6k · December 10, 2002

Oh, to get back on topic, do we have a list of what attributes we do have and ones we've rejected?

About the weather issue. I think most people will understand that weather will increase difficulty. It's the persistant effect of that weather that people will want to know about. It could be snow for those in the northern parts or it could be high water/swampy for areas like where I live.

As for attributes, here a couple or three that may be considered:

print out required: it's been discussed before.

traveling cache: limited use but have seen reference to caches that must be hidden in a new place each time.

extra pieces required to operate cache: off shoot of the puzzle cache. You need information or objects before you hunt the cache v. have to figure things out at the first stage of a multi. Or maybe an all-encompassing "description read imperative."

seasonal access: for places that close seasonally or is/should be restricted like because of hunting. OT side note: maybe a field on the page to limit access between certain dates--possibly turn the page background red, or something, to flag it during that time.

vista: for places that have a nice scenic view or something interesting to look besides trees. Maybe "vista" for a nice landscape and "interesting spot" for something curious to look at. This could be at the cache site or along the way to it.

historical site: I've learned a lot about local skrimishes and national history from caches placed at road-side historical marks and cemetaries.

path type: paved, dirt, rough, 4WD trail, bike, foot, animal, none.

non-trading cache: for caches that are really too small, pure® letterboxes, or hiders fed up with keeping up with trade items.

Is this along the lines of what you're looking for in this thread? If so, I might have a few more.

CR

December 10, 2002

Okay, I've been prepping for a couple caching trips, and I believe I have stumbled across something important that I had forgotten. There is another attribute that would be exceedingly helpful at times, and it's something that I would definitely key on to find some caches to do. What is it? Camping Available!

Whenever I'm on very long, multi-day+ caching trips, I camp. I've never stayed at a hotel while on a caching trip, but sometimes I've been relegated to taking a <2 hour [to be legal) nap at a rest stop because I know of no camping. If I could see caches that have camping areas, it would be the next best thing since the hydrocache was invented.

Anyway, I guess the winter had caused me to forget about camping, but at least I remembered it before it was *too* late.

(And now, on to the reply part of the show...)

print out required, traveling cache, extra pieces required to operate cache: All these are the "read it or weep" Information attribute already covered.

seasonal access: Already chosen.

vista, historical site: I don't see how these need to be attributes, really. Historical sites may be nice to key on, perhaps, but vista? I think that would be too poorly-defined, and frankly, should most caches have something nice to look at or do?

path type: That's getting a bit far into "re-describe the cache via attributes", which is going too far

non-trading cache: If it's a micro, the size will tell. If it's a letterbox hybrid, the type will tell. If the hider is just fed up, let the hider have the respect to say it.

December 10, 2002

(Hehe... not every day someone quotes Shakespeare in a subject line on the forums, eh? )

Okay, here it is, the current quasi-canonical list of cache attributes. This is not "official" or anything, but I've run through the 41 pages worth of thread (printed 16 pages/page -- love that HP) to try to collect the state of the thread in one post so that we can comment on it better. (I was losing track of which attributes were there.) So, here are all the current and pending (as in, not fully commented on) cache attributes:

No dogs

Leashed dogs

Unleashed dogs

Not available year round (seasonal)

Restricted hours

Fee area

Cave

Easy climbing

Skilled climbing

Flashlight required

Boat required

Puzzle

Read Notes (information)

Accessible area

May be accessible

Less than ~500ft from car to cache

Camping

Biking (trails)

ATV

4WD

Camping and biking are two that I would most definitely include in the "final" list, as they are both quite popular among geocachers. (I've heard cachers lament that they can't find good biking caches.) I'll let other people advocate ATV/4WD if they so choose.

Anyway, since I had problems installing Infallibility 2003 (something about an incompatible CPU), please feel free to continue the commentary. I just wanted to pull the thread together for a moment to do a sanity check on my understanding of it. Well, sanity check complete, let the games continue.

3.1k · December 10, 2002

The camping addition made me think: what about "camping required"? Or "Overnighter" or "Back country", something along those lines.

Now cache away, cache away, cache away all!

December 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):

quote:
Originally posted by Centaur:
Jeremy -

Would you consider _Increased Difficulty with Snow cover._ different from _Sesonal Availability_ ?

I'd like it to be more broad, like "Difficulty changes based on weather conditions." Though something less verbose would be nice.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

Maybe this is beating a dead horse (or centaur - Now on my own proposal, I begin to wonder if its just best to leave it up to the cache description to inform folks about increased difficulty for snow/weather. AS now that I think about it more, would that really be used as a cache selection attribute for a search? Possibly in an exclusion form (to eliminate caches harder with snow or other heavy ground cover, etc.) But now I hold no strong inclination to it. As you say, something less verbose might be nice.. perhaps not based on weather at all., Maybe something like: Difficulty changes with Ground Cover. But that may describe too many caches.

---

Still would like to see: NOT Travelbug Friendly. So folks trying to place bugs can exclude caches they should not be hitting, and leaving bugs outside the container.

December 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Dinoprophet:
The camping addition made me think: what about "camping _required_"? Or "Overnighter" or "Back country", something along those lines.

That should be pretty much covered by terrain ratings of maybe 4, possibly 4.5, or even 5 stars, really. (And I have yet to find one within 500 miles of me, too.)

December 10, 2002

I love to do caches at night and do about 25% of my finds at night. Many times I pull up to do a cache and find out it is a park that closes at dark or similiar.

It would be fantastic to be able to plan for this.

1.6k · December 10, 2002

I figgin' HATE when I've been verbose and IE crashes! ...rewritting...

Camping attribute: wouldn't a seperately maintained list be better? What if you need to camp, but none of the caches in you area list camping? I wouldn't rely on cache listings to find out where the camping spots are.

Didn't there used to be a download POIs on your "nearest" page? What ahppened to that? Also, what about downloading selectable POIs on a query? Like nearest camp sites, hotels, churches, hospitals, whatever.

About some attributes being redundant because it's covered in the difficulty rating. Not entirely. From reading some posts before, people are looking to be able to just download waypoints into their GPS and just go. Limiting a search by terrain, my limit more than needed. They may not care if the hike is long, but may not have required equipment. The hide may be extremely clever, but doable without a printout. If you exclude by "read info," well, that could mean anything. Maybe what we need, or need to do, is a cache-type where if you show up at the listed coordinates you can find and log a cache--regardless on any difficulty rating. I think traditional caches are supposed to be this way--though I could be wrong--but they've been corrupted so bad it's pitiful.

Maybe an attribute for "Cache at coordinates, nothing more needed to log."

CR

2.6k · December 10, 2002

Wow this is starting to look like the HomeLand Security bill.

Everyone is trying to stuff some crazy things into this simple attribute issue.

What about keeping it simple? This is like information overload. Hiders are going to have to research and submit a thesis just to satisfy some of these issues.

If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

December 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by dylanhayes:

Actually it's quite simple in the rest of the world outside North America.....

As the issue is not so clear cut, it might just be better to add a note to the cache description to the effect that the cache is located in an area with non-existant mobile phone reception.

Well, my point about the outside the U.S. comment was to further illustrate how different cellphones work in different areas. It would be nice if there was a standard, hopefully 3G will bring this.

I agree with the idea stated that for remote areas it is nice to post if cell coverage works. We did this on one of our caches that is off of a 4x4 trail over five miles from the closest paved road. In the cache details we stated that we had decent signal strength almost all the way to the cache, but at the cache there was none. We also stated that this was on an AT&T cell phoen and that others may not be the same.

Shannon

VegasCacheHounds

December 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:
Camping attribute: wouldn't a seperately maintained list be better? What if you need to camp, but none of the caches in you area list camping? I wouldn't rely on cache listings to find out where the camping spots are.

A "camping available" attribute wouldn't exist to tell you where each and every campsite is. It would only exist to say, "Hey, if you want to camp+cache, here's a spot just for you!"

quote:
About some attributes being redundant because it's covered in the difficulty rating. Not entirely. From reading some posts before, people are looking to be able to just download waypoints into their GPS and just _go._

There is no reason to reinvent the description in attributes just to try to help those who want to just download and go. If J. Random Cacher wants to head out unprepared, that's fine. If J. Random Cacher gets in a jam or can't find the cache because he refuses to read the cache pages, that's fine as well! If it so happens that Mr. Cacher decides he hates to have so many failed hunts, he can either get a $50 (and up) PDA and download a pocket query, or he can read the pages. If he can't read them because of a learning disability, I invite him to get in touch with me and I'll get him a phone number of someone who will summarise it for him, but it is quite literally *impossible* to squeeze all the information into the waypoint or attributes.

I know of two things that can get to me more than I'd like. The first is malicious people -- I simply do not have the capacity to understand how someone can knowingly and willingly cause harm to another. The second is exceptionally lazy people -- I cannot find it in me to spend excessive amounts of time trying to help people who don't care to try. Now, we're *all* a bit "lazy". A little "laziness" is a good thing, because it can help you to find the best way of doing something (to save effort later), but when people become *excessively* lazy to the point where they are offended when you don't go out of your way to satisfy them, that is where I cannot help but draw the line.

I don't mind at all if people don't want to read the cache pages. I imagine it makes for all sorts of fun and interesting experiences, and probably a nice chunk of frustration. However, I do not believe that we should pay too much attention to them -- just as I don't think we should pay too much attention to the people that will have every map known to man before they hunt. (If you want to turn a 5/5 into a park-and-log, have at it! You get most of the fun out of the preparation, where I get it out of the hunt, but that's just because we're different.)

December 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by webfargo:
I love to do caches at night and do about 25% of my finds at night. Many times I pull up to do a cache and find out it is a park that closes at dark or similiar.

If I were hiding a cache in a Baton Rouge park, I probably wouldn't add the "restricted hours" cache attribute, because all the parks are dawn-to-dusk. That, to me, is "standard hours". If the location has by-the-clock hours (no matter how long or short), I'd definitely call it "restricted hours" and throw that flag. Now, if I managed to hide one that is available 24 hours, that would be an amazing deviation from the norm. I can see how "open 24 hours" would be a very useful cache attribute.

So, with that in mind, there are really *three* types of cache availability hours:

Restricted Hours: The cache availability is by-the-clock, i.e. 9a-5p, 10a-10p, 3:30p-dark.

24 Hours: The cache can legally (or safely) be hunted around the clock.

"Normal Hours": Anything else. (Dawn to dusk would fit here, at least in Baton Rouge, as all locations are such unless specified.)

Restricted Hours and 24 Hours could therefore be valid and useful cache attributes, using this logic, and "Normal Hours" would quite obviously not be a cache attribute (since it's what people would naturally assume).

December 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by VegasCacheHounds:

quote:
Originally posted by dylanhayes:

Actually it's quite simple in the rest of the world outside North America.....

Well, my point about the outside the U.S. comment was to further illustrate how different cellphones work in different areas. It would be nice if there was a standard, hopefully 3G will bring this.

Shannon

VegasCacheHounds

There is an International standard. It's called GSM (Global Système Mobile), and operates at two frequencies: 900MHz and 1800MHz in some 70 countries worldwide (except North America).

The first digital frequency used in North America, 1900MHz, predated the standard and hence the Network Providers are reluctant to adopt the full International Standard.

However, you can buy Tri-band phones which work on all three frequencies. Mine has been used in Europe, Asia, Australia and USA without any problems (and yes we did go caching everywhere)!

Dave

1.6k · December 10, 2002

quote:
...are offended when you don't go out of your way to satisfy them...

I'm not sure that is the case.

With all due respect, not everyone can afford a PDA nor want to fool with one. Printing out pages upon pages of cache discriptions is laborious. I'm sure there are a substantial number of cachers who would like to be able to just load up their GPS and go. It's not about be lazy, it's about getting to it and not having to do a bunch of preparation.

We used to carry a large binder with pages of cache descriptions, it was Sissy's job to plan our trip. If we were to do some spontaneous caching we were stuck with the pages we had, guessing at the ones we didn't, or just coming home. I saw that this was a burden and I was grateful when a fellow cacher showed her his Palm. We now have one and it's made things a lot easier.

But, if reading the cache page is to be a requirement, then the "read description" attribute would be redundant.

I strongly feel it is important to be able to differentiate caches that can be found and logged by going to the listed coordinates. This could include multis where something at the start will get you to the next leg. It could be a new cache-type, maybe "simple." It could be an attribute the owner could set that lets people know they only need their GPS.

I know some, if not most, people prepare for a hunt, but let's not leave the spontaneous cachers behind.

As for the rest of your post, I'm starting to get a little confused as to the whole reason behind these attribute are in the first place. I thought it was to be able to search the database and create a list. What is included in that list would be based on the ability to include or exclude listings with certain attributes. IMHO, being able to list all of the caches that don't require anything more than your GPS would be more useful than knowing if there's a campsite.

If these attributes are only to inform and not to search on, then simply putting java on the cache discription page inserting "attribute graemlins" would be all we need. Simply click away...

Are these attributes meant to be able to be searched on/for and lists created based on certain attributes?

CR

December 10, 2002

I think knowing whether a park allows dogs is great but I fail to see why the leashed/unleashed specification is needed. If it is a simple "Dogs allowed", just bring your dog on the leash. If, when you arrive at the cache location, it turns out that there is an area to unleash your dog, then do it when you get there. I think the important thing is just to know that Fido can come along.

Janine

"You have brains in your head; You have feet in your shoes.

You can steer yourself any direction you choose.

You're on your own. And you know what you know.

And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go...."

Dr. Seuss

2.6k · December 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Cacheola Crew:
I think knowing whether a park allows dogs is great but I fail to see why the leashed/unleashed specification is needed. If it is a simple "Dogs allowed", just bring your dog on the leash. If, when you arrive at the cache location, it turns out that there is an area to unleash your dog, then do it when you get there. I think the important thing is just to know that Fido can come along.

If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

December 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:

quote:
...are offended when you don't go out of your way to satisfy them...

I'm not sure that is the case.

With all due respect, not everyone can afford a PDA nor want to fool with one. Printing out pages upon pages of cache discriptions is laborious. I'm sure there are a substantial number of cachers who would like to be able to just load up their GPS and go.

My intended point was not that people should be required to read or print or sync the pages for all the caches they do. I have spontaneously cached several times myself, although I have since made it a point to always at least read the cache page, since I have given that advice to others many times.

The idea I was trying to convey was that there are people who do enjoy spontaneously heading out to caches whose pages they've never read with nothing but a GPS receiver in their hand. It is impossible to simplify the whole of geocaching to a level where all caches can be done that way, as we both know and fully understand.

My apologies if I was so unclear as to cause you to believe that I consider spontaneous cachers second-class or poor caching citizens. That was certainly not my intention.

quote:
I strongly feel it is important to be able to differentiate caches that can be found and logged by going to the listed coordinates. This _could_ include multis where something at the start will get you to the next leg. It _could_ be a new cache-type, maybe "simple." It _could_ be an attribute the owner could set that lets people know they only _need_ their GPS.

I know some, if not most, people prepare for a hunt, but let's not leave the spontaneous cachers behind.

I cache differently than many other cachers. When I want to go caching, I choose one or more caches to hunt. Then I read their pages and get ready. Once I've gotten everything together, I head out and go find (try to find) the caches. If a cache isn't on my list, I might come within a few hundred feet, but usually I won't stop because it didn't interest me very much when I read the page.

Now, other cachers are much different. They can be driving down the road and see a waypoint *right* *THERE*! They pull into a little suburban park and get out with their GPS receiver and go off to find the cache. With no preparation done, no cache page read, and nothing but a mark on their screen, they head off to try to find the cache.

For my kind of caching, having a "Basic Cache" attribute wouldn't do one iota of good; however, for someone of the latter style, being able to have a collection of waypoints in their GPS receiver that are marked (with a special icon or name) as basic caches (i.e. you need no extra information at all) would be exceptionally useful.

Now, since it is irrelevant to me, personally, I'm not going to advocate or oppose it, just as I am neutral on the ATV and 4WD suggestions. If it is important to you, please feel free (or even obligated) to advocate it and to explain exactly why you believe it to be worth the additional clutter. Every single one of the cache attributes is additional clutter, but those that are kept will have convinced Jeremy (and us, I'd hope) that they are worth their respective clutter.

quote:
As for the rest of your post, I'm starting to get a little confused as to the whole reason behind these attribute are in the first place. I thought it was to be able to search the database and create a list. What is included in that list would be based on the ability to include or exclude listings with certain attributes. IMHO, being able to list all of the caches that don't require anything more than your GPS would be more useful than knowing if there's a campsite.

Are these attributes meant to be able to be searched on/for and lists created based on certain attributes?

My apologies for not being as clear as I may have intended to be. Yes, the whole reason for the cache attributes is to facilitate searching and filtering. They are there in order to provide a way to programmatically key on the certain things they represent. They should be flags waving at passing cachers to say, "Come look at this! I have the information you're looking!" (or even, "Run away! Run away! You don't want to come here!")

The reason I suggested a "Camping" cache attribute is not because I want to see if there's any camping at the cache I was going to hunt. It's so that I can find and hunt the caches that have camping.

To summarize, once you're looking at the cache page, the cache attributes are nothing but relatively pointless little icons (or whatever). It's when you don't know what cache you want to hunt that cache attributes are useful.

1.6k · December 11, 2002

Clayjar, thanks for clearing that up.

Jeremy, I think there should be some mechanism to differeniate those caches you can hunt with only the waypoint in your GPS from those you need to read the cache pages for what ever reason.

This could be the flip side of the "read info" attribute. It could say "Commando." Not a "Friends" fan, but one thing did make it around the watercooler, the term "commando" meaning "without underwear." The term could be used here to refer to selecting and hunting caches by only following the blip on the GPS screen. In other words, going "without printout or reading description." eh, it's a thought.

No attributes: this would be for those who have actually looked at the atttributes and either don't know what attributes apply or in fact no attributes do apply, or think no attributes apply.

Could set a unknown attributes in the beginning let us know the owner hasn't done anything with it yet. This would be different than just no attributes at all as I can see some caches with no attributes set intentionally. It's cleared the first time an attribute is set.

This would let searchers know if, in fact, there are no attributes with the "No Attributes" tag or the owner just hasn't gotten around to applying them, "Unknown Attributes."

CR

3.5k · December 11, 2002

Geez, I already have something similar to this on my web site:

http://www.9key.com/selector.asp

Oh well!

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
Please provide any attributes you think should be assigned to caches. I'll start.

Wheelchair Access

Dogs - Offleash

Dogs - Leashed

Dogs - Prohibited

Boat Required

Kid Friendly

Leave Kids at Home

Special Equipment

(Thoughts on time/distance to cache?)

The gameplan will be to provide attributes on the "report/edit cache" page, and list them on the cache detail page. Next we will provide them in the GPX cache files, Mobipocket, and the Pocket Query Generator. Lastly we will provide searching tools on the web site.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

I doubt sometimes whether a quiet and unagited life would have suited me - yet I sometimes long for it.

Byron

December 11, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by 9Key:
Geez, I already have something similar to this on my web site:

http://www.9key.com/selector.asp

Oh well!

I try to make it a point to be kind and gentle wherever possible, so I will simply inform you that you replied to the thread-opening post, which is now approximately 56 *printed* pages old. Needless to say, while that's a nice little gadget you have there, it completely misses the point of this thread.

Oh well!

Seriously, though, if you'd like to catch up, you should be able to start around the cache attributes summary and read the posts from there. We've basically gone back over the important parts from there down, although the previous pages are quite useful.

9.4k · December 11, 2002

ScooterJ's cache icons do a better job of conveying info for geocachers, IMO.

An (i) info attribute (a.k.a. refer to the description) would mean that "this cache cannot be found without reading the instructions." It would be extremely helpful for those who just go by the coordinates in their GPS (considering that the waypoint names describe it in some fashion).

A camping icon seems valuable, considering that many people geocache while they travel. Planning a cross-country geocaching trip would benefit from this.

Unknown attributes doesn't seem necessary. It will be considered that if there are no attributes, the user has not decided to show any. Of the previous 40,000 caches I doubt a large percentage of them will be updated with attributes.

Perhaps you're right about removing "off leash" to the list of pet accessible areas. This has been a common request in the past, however, which is why I have tried to champion it.

We can certainly consider the "changing difficulty due to ground cover" attribute in the future. It does seem that we can come up with a good solid list of attributes to start.

And as a side note, creating an alternate cache waypoint name seems more important every day (even to replace the GC with G! for starters, or whatever valid key if it requires more info).

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

December 11, 2002

The wheelchair attribute is a wonderful idea.As a person that suffered a sudden back injury and went from being somewhat normal in mobility to using a wheelchair. It occurs to me that when I could walk well, I did not have the insight to determine what was a barrier or a challenge to a wheelchair bound person. I suggest that if you define what wheelchair access means that you seek the assistance of someone that has used a wheelchair while seeking Geocaches.

see ya, jeff'

Camping Hoosiers

Memphis, Indiana. USA

December 11, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:
I hate to bring up an old topic, but since it looks like some work is being done around here.

I'd like to see an option for hiding coordinates from non-registered visitors to a cache page. Totally optional.

It's been voted on in two polls, both polls in favor of this idea. I have since been quiet about it, but have seen other threads come and go in favor of this idea.

As long as we are adding checkboxes all over the place, I'd really like to see this happen now, while there is work being done, instead of forgotten about only to be brought up again later.

I'm with cachew nut on this now is a good time to add a chech box for this much wanted option.

Take a chance or you'll never know. Let your spirits soar!

1.4k · December 11, 2002

All my druthers have been included here. I'd like to second the motion for having a '4 Season' or 'Winter Accessible' notation. The northern reaches in particular will find this useful. It's a feature that has been discussed on MiGO's email list but that would be best incorporated here.

--------

trippy1976 - Team KKF2A

Saving geocaches - one golf ball at a time.

1k · December 12, 2002

I was gonna stay out of this but have another comment concerning ATV/4X4/snowmobile/horses/motocross/donkeys etc. Maybe just an "Off road vehicle" attribute, which makes it kind of broad but narrows it down and cuts down on the clutter of 200 attributes.

(Almost seems like it'd be easier to use a keyword system, and let people put in what they want and if someone wants to hunt only church, garbage dump, or alley caches, they can search for that. OK CJ, I'll shut up now.)

PS: I also want to say I support all the thoughts in Jeremy's last post, especially changing waypoint prefixes.

I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory.

1.6k · December 12, 2002

quote:
ATV/4X4/snowmobile/horses/motocross/donkeys etc.

I probably wouldn't lump pack animals in with motorized vehicles. I've seen plenty of trails where horses are allowed, but motorized vehicle are.

The breakdown I usually see when you can't take a full-sized vehicle are: motorized vehicles, horses, bicycles, and foot. I've seen weird combinations like some are allow bicycles and foot traffic, but no horses or motorized. Then we've seen foot and horses, but not bicycles or motorized.

Which reminds me, what about no gas powered boats? There are places where you can use a canoe or electric powered boats, but not gas powered due to it being a drinking water reservor or sensitive area. this could be a subset of Hydrocache, but lets people know not to bring a bassboat or PWC.

CR

Geocaching Attributes List.

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