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Log your DNF please


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I placed a new hide (GC3FAB6) Sunday and it was just found two days later. It's a 4 1/2 difficulty so I knew it would take a while. The FTF said they had so much fun they wish they could give it two favorite points. It's feels good to know people appreciate the hard work and planning that goes into creating a fun hide.

 

Down side is there had to be a few who didn't log their visits (dnfs). Only one dnf in two days and I know there are many FTF hounds in the area. There is no shame in logging dnfs on a high difficulty hide. Dnfs help in adjusting the ratings and input from the logs help the co know if there are problems. Why don’t more people log their dnfs?

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Looks like I need to start doing it more. I just don't want to log a DNF until after the second time I look for it, in case I was doing something stupid or just looking in the completely wrong place. Hmmm, maybe I also have in the back of my mind someone out there is thinking what a dumb... cannot even find it.

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Why don’t more people log their dnfs?

Because they put the minimum effort into Geocaching. You have to log a Found It to claim a Smilie, but the other logs give no prize.

 

However, I'd advise against prodding people to log DNFs who rationalize them away. There are replies around here like "just for that, every cache I've never found is getting DNFs". :ph34r:

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I log a DNF whenever I feel I've put in enough effort to make me think I should have found it. If it's a three-star and I look for five minutes, that's not a DNF, that's a DNL (Did Not Look).

 

Austin

 

Exactly......

But since there is no such log type - you must agree that you DID look and you Did Not Find --- right??? :rolleyes:

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Is this supposed to a competition where the object is to make a cache so difficult that no one can find it? It there some prize for hiding caches that get the most DNFs? Do you take some sort of sadistic pleasure seeing people admitting that could not find your cache?

 

Most people place caches wanting them to be found. Sure, cache owners want to see DNFs so they can tell if there may be some problem with the cache that needs to be address. But if they know the cache is difficult already what further reason do they have to see DNFs? Some cache owners with difficult caches prefer just the opposite. They don't want people to log a DNF every try. They know that lots of DNFs on a cache will often discourage others from looking. Some are even concerned that a string of DNF can lead to someone posting a Needs Archive or Needs Maintenance,

 

Once you put out a cache you really can't tell others when to log a DNF or not. There is no widely accepted standard for when you should post one. You'll get a lot of people in the forums will will say that they post a Find or a DNF on every attempt. But in the greater community you find a broad range of opinions on when to log DNF. Some people will only log a DNF when they believe the cache is missing. Some will only log a DNF after they have searched a few times and are ready to give up. Of course some people don't bother logging DNFs at all, since online logging (despite what Grounspeaks wants you to believe) is entirely optional.

Edited by tozainamboku
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There is no requirement to log a DNF. There is a requirement to log a Found It, if you want the smiley. And DNFs clutter up the cache page.

In this case, it sounds like OP wants to gloat over those who did not find it.

 

Your full of crap! Don't assume, you don't know me well enough.You don't even know me. Just stick with the facts.

Edited by rustynails.
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There is no requirement to log a DNF. There is a requirement to log a Found It, if you want the smiley. And DNFs clutter up the cache page.

In this case, it sounds like OP wants to gloat over those who did not find it.

 

Your full of crap! Don't assume, you don't know me well enough.You don't even know me. Just stick with the facts.

Many DNFs are to let the owner know there maybe an issue with the cache. If you believed the cache was there then yes I agree with Harry Dolphin. And that is a fact. What other reason would you want DNFs on a difficult rated cache.

Edited by jellis
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Looks like I need to start doing it more. I just don't want to log a DNF until after the second time I look for it, in case I was doing something stupid or just looking in the completely wrong place. Hmmm, maybe I also have in the back of my mind someone out there is thinking what a dumb... cannot even find it.

 

That sounds like the way I do it. I don't think I'm the best a finding caches so I don't always log a DNF after one look. I've come to think it's important to log a DNF after a good effort, though, as I get a good sense of the difficulty a cache by seeing the number of DNFs.

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There is no requirement to log a DNF. There is a requirement to log a Found It, if you want the smiley. And DNFs clutter up the cache page.

In this case, it sounds like OP wants to gloat over those who did not find it.

 

Your full of crap! Don't assume, you don't know me well enough.You don't even know me. Just stick with the facts.

Many DNFs are to let the owner know there maybe an issue with the cache. If you believed the cache was there then yes I agree with Harry Dolphin. And that is a fact. What other reason would you want DNFs on a difficult rated cache.

 

See now there is where many of us disagree. The highlighted text above shows that at some level you primarily view a DNF log as a way to tell the owner that the cache may be missing. Many of us see it instead as a part of our personal caching history and the history of the cache itself. Nothing more - Nothing less.

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There is no requirement to log a DNF. There is a requirement to log a Found It, if you want the smiley. And DNFs clutter up the cache page.

In this case, it sounds like OP wants to gloat over those who did not find it.

 

Your full of crap! Don't assume, you don't know me well enough.You don't even know me. Just stick with the facts.

Many DNFs are to let the owner know there maybe an issue with the cache. If you believed the cache was there then yes I agree with Harry Dolphin. And that is a fact. What other reason would you want DNFs on a difficult rated cache.

Well there's this one...

<snip>

Dnfs help in adjusting the ratings and input from the logs help the co know if there are problems.

Edited by Trinity's Crew
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I agree. I log them not only for the CO and other cachers but as part of my caching story. If I turn on the GPS and srart out after a cache, there will be log, be it a DNF or Note. I wish more folks would do that.

+1 If I look for a cache and don't find it that's a DNF. If I drive to the location but don't look for it due to Muggles or whatever that a Note.

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We log DNFs every time. We look at it as a personal challenge (when there isn't an issue with the cache) to try again and find it. I've been back to look for this LPC five times.

 

There is no shame in a DNF. It is part of the adventure. It shows your history - especially when you come back and find it. Triumph!

 

We love tricky hides that make you obsessed. We love high-terrain hides that make you work for the prize. And we love the poor little parking lot hides that remind us that there is a treasure hunt going on every day, everywhere, that we feel priveledged to be in on.

 

Okay - now I need an explore.. The world awaits! :D

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The good thing about geocaching is everybody can do it. The bad thing about geocaching is everybody can do it. In the end there are no rules, only guidelines. Here's how I roll: If there is a hide i have searched for several times unsuccessfully, I will log a DNF with a thorough description of my search, in hopes i can help the CO decide whether or not to check. I consider it rude to log a DNF with a recommendation that the CO should check on it. IMHO I have no right to recommend a total stranger take some action based on my failure to get a smiley. If I log a DNF I also put it on my watch list and will search again after a find. If it goes dormant for a prolonged period of time with no finds, I will the consider, after a final thorough search, logging a NM. I usually watch for no activity for 12 months.

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I log a DNF whenever I feel I've put in enough effort to make me think I should have found it. If it's a three-star and I look for five minutes, that's not a DNF, that's a DNL (Did Not Look).

 

Austin

 

Exactly......

But you would log the find if you got lucky in those five minutes, right? :unsure:

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Is this supposed to a competition where the object is to make a cache so difficult that no one can find it? It there some prize for hiding caches that get the most DNFs?

Sometimes. Although, I really prefer to hide easy caches for the masochists to find. They absolutely HATE that!

 

Seriously though... the answer is still "yes". I have hidden plenty of so-called "evil" caches, and I have found (and DNF'd) a lot more of them. I enjoy them, and so do many others. It can be very rewarding if and when you do find them. Your stance on that sounds dangerously puritanical to me.

Edited by knowschad
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I believe most cachers don't log their DNFs because they see it as some kind of failure. Which a DNF is? :laughing: I have found the less I worry about how other people play I tend to enjoy the game much better. We DNF caches ALL the time and log them too. Most of our DNFs come from needle in the haystack kinda hides. I have no patience for those types.

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I agree. I log them not only for the CO and other cachers but as part of my caching story. If I turn on the GPS and srart out after a cache, there will be log, be it a DNF or Note. I wish more folks would do that.

+1 If I look for a cache and don't find it that's a DNF. If I drive to the location but don't look for it due to Muggles or whatever that a Note.

 

As I see it, if I drive to a location and arrive at a certain time of day (say, around lunch time) and don't look for it due to Muggles, a DNF log would tell other potential seekers of the cache that arriving at the location around the same time of day might produce the same result. However, there have also been times when I've arrived at the general location, saw a sea of lampposts in a parking lot, and "did not look" for the cache, and wouldn't post a DNF. As far as I am concern, there isn't a firm rule for whether a DNF should or should not be posted, but as a general guideline if I feel that posting a DNF will benefit the cache owner and/or future seekers of the cache, I'll post a DNF.

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I believe THAT most cachers THAT don't log their DNFs because they see it as some kind of failure. Which a DNF is? :laughing: I have found the less I worry about how other people play I tend to enjoy the game much better. We DNF caches ALL the time and log them too. Most of our DNFs come from needle in the haystack kinda hides. I have no patience for those types.

 

I hope you don't mind, but I added a couple of words (bolded) to what you said in the hopes of making (what I assume is) your meaning clearer for the new-comer. I don't think we want to give the impression to them that most cachers don't log their DNFs.

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I believe most cachers don't log their DNFs because they see it as some kind of failure. Which a DNF is? :laughing: I have found the less I worry about how other people play I tend to enjoy the game much better. We DNF caches ALL the time and log them too. Most of our DNFs come from needle in the haystack kinda hides. I have no patience for those types.

 

Does that mean the people that come to these DNF threads every single time and publicly admit they don't log the DNF if they "didn't look hard enough" are just using that as a convenient excuse? :P

 

Whatever the reason, many people just don't log them. How many times have you seen a found log from someone on a cache along the lines of "third time here, finally found it", with no other log entries by that account? Too many times to count in my experience.

 

And I learned this a long time ago. At least the OP has a find on the cache. I can remember a battle tank micro placed just inside my 50 mile notification radius way back in 05 or 06. Sat there for about a week with NO LOGS WHATSOEVER. Finally someone, and I remember it was NOT the cache owner, posted a note saying "c'mon, no one has looked for this thing?" All the DNF'ers slowly came out of the closet. It was pretty funny. I do not remember, however, any of them saying they didn't feel they looked hard enough. :ph34r:

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I agree. I log them not only for the CO and other cachers but as part of my caching story. If I turn on the GPS and srart out after a cache, there will be log, be it a DNF or Note. I wish more folks would do that.

+1 If I look for a cache and don't find it that's a DNF. If I drive to the location but don't look for it due to Muggles or whatever that a Note.

 

As I see it, if I drive to a location and arrive at a certain time of day (say, around lunch time) and don't look for it due to Muggles, a DNF log would tell other potential seekers of the cache that arriving at the location around the same time of day might produce the same result. However, there have also been times when I've arrived at the general location, saw a sea of lampposts in a parking lot, and "did not look" for the cache, and wouldn't post a DNF. As far as I am concern, there isn't a firm rule for whether a DNF should or should not be posted, but as a general guideline if I feel that posting a DNF will benefit the cache owner and/or future seekers of the cache, I'll post a DNF.

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As I see it, if I drive to a location and arrive at a certain time of day (say, around lunch time) and don't look for it due to Muggles, a DNF log would tell other potential seekers of the cache that arriving at the location around the same time of day might produce the same result. However, there have also been times when I've arrived at the general location, saw a sea of lampposts in a parking lot, and "did not look" for the cache, and wouldn't post a DNF. As far as I am concern, there isn't a firm rule for whether a DNF should or should not be posted, but as a general guideline if I feel that posting a DNF will benefit the cache owner and/or future seekers of the cache, I'll post a DNF.

+1

 

There's a cache I drive past on my commute, and though I give it the stink eye, I don't go look, therefore don't log additional DNFs, since Geocaching is not all about me.

Edited by kunarion
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I believe THAT most cachers THAT don't log their DNFs because they see it as some kind of failure. Which a DNF is? :laughing: I have found the less I worry about how other people play I tend to enjoy the game much better. We DNF caches ALL the time and log them too. Most of our DNFs come from needle in the haystack kinda hides. I have no patience for those types.

 

I hope you don't mind, but I added a couple of words (bolded) to what you said in the hopes of making (what I assume is) your meaning clearer for the new-comer. I don't think we want to give the impression to them that most cachers don't log their DNFs.

Nah I don't mind at all. :laughing:

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I've driven up to the occasional rock garden, taken one look and driven onward, because spending an hour flipping rocks for a blinky isn't my thing. I don't post a DNF, but I just might post a note indicating I didn't feel like finding this one.

 

The only fun one of these was one you could narrow down quickly with a compass because it still had the magnet attached.

 

One point regarding DNFs though, as a cache owner I have observed the trend of people giving up sooner (and having the gall to post a Needs Maintenance) because they think 4 or 5 DNFs in a row means it's gone. I have at least one cache was was placed because a replacement container wasn't needed. Also yanked someone's chain over a NM by briefly adding to the cache page 'This Cache as eluded _____ 01 times'

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I'll always join in a discussion about people not logging DNFs.

I'm in the camp that thinks you should log every DNF if you've actually looked for the cache and couldn't find it. There are lots of good reasons for doing so.

 

Sadly, I think there are more cachers than not that don't log them.

 

I've done a sort of unscientific study of a couple of our caches that are a bit tricky. I've put a watch on other CO's caches around ours, and find that the other caches (all in the same woodlot for example) are being found, but mine aren't being logged, and in a couple of cases you have to walk right past mine to do the caches either side of it.

I have 3 caches on one small trail where you have to walk back out after going in (no loop) with a tricky cache in the middle. Many times the caches both sides of the tricky one are found with nothing for the middle one. I don't believe a cacher will set up for a trail like that, walk past it twice and not even try for the middle cache! Folks are trying .. not finding .. and not logging their DNF.

I know it's not just me, because they find our other caches regularly! :lol: Otherwise I'd start to worry.

Biggest peeve is that I've gone out several times because of this not logging to make sure our cache(s) are still there, and it's always fine!

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To the OP: I wonder if the FTF hounds were scared off by the 4.5 difficulty?

 

I log a DNF whenever I feel I've put in enough effort to make me think I should have found it. If it's a three-star and I look for five minutes, that's not a DNF, that's a DNL (Did Not Look).

 

When I log a DNF, I note approximately how long I looked. The CO can use that information to determine how relevant my DNF is.

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I agree. I log them not only for the CO and other cachers but as part of my caching story. If I turn on the GPS and srart out after a cache, there will be log, be it a DNF or Note. I wish more folks would do that.

+1 If I look for a cache and don't find it that's a DNF. If I drive to the location but don't look for it due to Muggles or whatever that a Note.

+2. I also agree with the OP's point that DNF logs can help the owner refine the D/T ratings, esp. on a new cache. I have used such feedback on my own hides.

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I agree. I log them not only for the CO and other cachers but as part of my caching story. If I turn on the GPS and srart out after a cache, there will be log, be it a DNF or Note. I wish more folks would do that.

+1 If I look for a cache and don't find it that's a DNF. If I drive to the location but don't look for it due to Muggles or whatever that a Note.

+2. I also agree with the OP's point that DNF logs can help the owner refine the D/T ratings, esp. on a new cache. I have used such feedback on my own hides.

 

besides, if a 4 star hide has say 75 finds and maybe 1 DNF, I will not believe the difficulty reading when I get there. The DNFs help me more than the difficulty rating to determine how much effort I need to look for it, in some way. If a cache has no DNFs, then I am probably like to think its just me vs just being a tough cache. I log my DNFs for the cache history, my history, and to help the next finders. Its not shameful to log DNFs you know. Sure a few COs may get their jollies off DNFs, but that is not a reason to boycott doing DNFs in my opinion.

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For a difficult hide I'll usually log my first DNF. Then I will only log subsequent ones if there was something new to say that either is relevant to me, the cache owner or other seekers. Honestly there it's not often that there is new stuff to say.

 

For not so difficult hides I log a DNF sometimes. Usually only if I stopped and felt I honestly looked. Sometimes I stop and don't really look at all because I'm tired or distracted or whatever. If I have absolutely nothing to say with my DNF I don't log it either. I use it to convey information to the cache owner and other finders and make mental notes for myself.

 

It's not about shame of the DNF for all of us. Some of us, like me, just don't particularly want to spend time writing pointless notes.

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I believe THAT most cachers THAT don't log their DNFs because they see it as some kind of failure. Which a DNF is? :laughing: I have found the less I worry about how other people play I tend to enjoy the game much better. We DNF caches ALL the time and log them too. Most of our DNFs come from needle in the haystack kinda hides. I have no patience for those types.

 

I hope you don't mind, but I added a couple of words (bolded) to what you said in the hopes of making (what I assume is) your meaning clearer for the new-comer. I don't think we want to give the impression to them that most cachers don't log their DNFs.

 

Has anyone conducted a poll? I would not be surprised is the percentage were quite high. 50% would not surprise me.

But the fact still remains that logging DNFs is not required. Insisting that people must is quite officious. I've even met a number of cachers who do not log their finds. (That's not required either, unless they want the smiley.) "Guess I'll find out who they are when they log their finds. Hmm... They never logged the finds! I hope they didn't pick up the TB I left in that cache!"

Myself, I do log most of what I consider to be DNFs. (I'm up to 409!) But my caching partner does not. That would be redundant.

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+2. I also agree with the OP's point that DNF logs can help the owner refine the D/T ratings, esp. on a new cache. I have used such feedback on my own hides.

 

Agree. A cache just came out around here that had over 10 logged DNFs, but actually a lot more attempts because not everyone who tried logged one. If no one had logged one, it would just look like people aren't doing it and the owner would have not know that the coords were over 50 feet off.

 

Has anyone conducted a poll? I would not be surprised is the percentage were quite high. 50% would not surprise me.

I would guess that's about right. When I cache with others, it seems that about half of those I'm with won't log them.

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So here's a question. For every DNF logged, how many REAL DNF's do you think there were? In an urban area, I would guess at least 5-10 do not log a DNF for every one who does. What bother's me is when there is an urban cache with over 1,000,000 people living withing 10 miles of it, and there are 4 or 5 DNFs and it hasn't been found for over a year, why the owner won't go out and verify that it is still there?!?! Since there are 4 or 5 recorded DNFs, I bet there is at least 40 cachers who really DID NOT FIND IT. If you hid a cache and 40 cachers did not find it, who really looked for it, wouldn't you make an adjustment on it?

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So here's a question. For every DNF logged, how many REAL DNF's do you think there were? In an urban area, I would guess at least 5-10 do not log a DNF for every one who does. What bother's me is when there is an urban cache with over 1,000,000 people living withing 10 miles of it, and there are 4 or 5 DNFs and it hasn't been found for over a year, why the owner won't go out and verify that it is still there?!?! Since there are 4 or 5 recorded DNFs, I bet there is at least 40 cachers who really DID NOT FIND IT. If you hid a cache and 40 cachers did not find it, who really looked for it, wouldn't you make an adjustment on it?

 

IMO, a CO ought to go out and check with even 4 or 5 DNFs!

If I see anything less that a difficulty 3 with 4 or 5 DNFs I don't even go look for it!

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I believe THAT most cachers THAT don't log their DNFs because they see it as some kind of failure. Which a DNF is? :laughing: I have found the less I worry about how other people play I tend to enjoy the game much better. We DNF caches ALL the time and log them too. Most of our DNFs come from needle in the haystack kinda hides. I have no patience for those types.

 

I hope you don't mind, but I added a couple of words (bolded) to what you said in the hopes of making (what I assume is) your meaning clearer for the new-comer. I don't think we want to give the impression to them that most cachers don't log their DNFs.

Nah I don't mind at all. :laughing:

 

So, THAT was OK, huh? :lol:

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I log a DNF whenever I feel I've put in enough effort to make me think I should have found it. If it's a three-star and I look for five minutes, that's not a DNF, that's a DNL (Did Not Look).

 

Austin

What is your definition of "look"? If you drive up, look out the window for a few minutes, that would be a look. If you actually actively look/search for it, it's a DNF B)

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I have several caches in an urban setting that get found at least once a day if not more. Often it is the fact that a cache hasn't received any logs in a couple of days rather than a DNF that signals me to go check on it.

 

I always log my DNF's because I consider them a part of my caching history. I like to write nice, humorous logs and sometimes my DNF logs are more entertaining than my find logs.

Edited by slukster
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Typically, if I have a 'GO TO' on a cache the results are either:

'Found It'

or

'Did Not Find It'

and I post my log accordingly.

 

If I even get a vague feeling that the CO created their cache just to make a difficult hide, I feel no obligation to post a DNF and feed their ego.

 

I usually do post the DNF. And I may then put their 'see how crafty I am' cache on my IGNORE list.

I appreciate clever camo, but not for it's own sake.

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Is this supposed to a competition where the object is to make a cache so difficult that no one can find it? It there some prize for hiding caches that get the most DNFs?

Sometimes. Although, I really prefer to hide easy caches for the masochists to find. They absolutely HATE that!

 

Seriously though... the answer is still "yes". I have hidden plenty of so-called "evil" caches, and I have found (and DNF'd) a lot more of them. I enjoy them, and so do many others. It can be very rewarding if and when you do find them. Your stance on that sounds dangerously puritanical to me.

I have no doubt that some people like challenging hides. We certainly get enough who complain about too many easy boring hides. So I'd guess that in keeping with the principle of "hiding caches like you like to find", there are people who place difficult or "evil" hides. And like the OP they may find that those who do find these caches leave glowing logs and give favorite points.

 

Still I believe people hide these caches with the intent that they get found and that they don't really need the DNF logs to know people are enjoying the cache. It's true that by logging DNFs when you have trouble with a difficult cache you let other cachers know that this is not just another park and grab. That may encourage a few people to try to find it, and let others who are more interested in park and grabs to know to avoid it.

Edited by tozainamboku
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I agree. I log them not only for the CO and other cachers but as part of my caching story. If I turn on the GPS and srart out after a cache, there will be log, be it a DNF or Note. I wish more folks would do that.

+1 If I look for a cache and don't find it that's a DNF. If I drive to the location but don't look for it due to Muggles or whatever that a Note.

 

As I see it, if I drive to a location and arrive at a certain time of day (say, around lunch time) and don't look for it due to Muggles, a DNF log would tell other potential seekers of the cache that arriving at the location around the same time of day might produce the same result.

So would a Note

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