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Clan Ferguson

What are guidelines for Events??

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Last year I posted a cache for Halloween as an event cache as it was a cache hidden at an event. Granted not strictly a geocacher event but event none the less.

 

This year I went for the second annual version of the same cache. I disscussed it online wiht some of my fellow local cachers and they recommended posting a whole new page. I did and admin made it a regular cache as events are ment to be about or stricly for cachers. I am cool with this as it still gets me posted.

 

But now on our local fourm there is talk that even "one-day" caches are not going to allowed. as this supposedly promotes find padding.

 

I not sure if this is true or not as I can find no documents on the web site as to the guideline for an event.

 

I hope it is not true because I really enjoy doing my halloween cache, it really test your ability to be sneaky.(there is a physical box) but it is only active for about 5 hours one day a year.and I have given at least a months notice. I am not doing this so folks can pad there finds. I am not making this kind of cache more then once a year. But I would like to be able to continue with this as part of our halloween celeberation.

 

Thank you for response in advance.

 

Cache On!!

 

James

"Big Dog"

-Clan Ferguson

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James,

 

WGA has been officially informed by Jeremy that caches must be permanent in nature for them to be logged. You will not find it in writting, but the admins will not approve caches that are not permanent.

 

I don't know how it can be due to padding. Heck, the vast majority of temporary caches I've done at events are much harder finds than some non-event caches I've done.

 

If I wanted to pad my finds, there are a couple of cities near me where I could hit a couple of dozen caches much easier than at events I've been to.

 

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It's about the purpose of the site and the load that the admins have for approving caches.

 

If it's temporary, why post it? The idea for having listings is that folks can look them up at any time and seek them out. Caches that are up one day and gone the next aren't really appropriate for the purpose of the site. However, an event cache is.

 

Look at it this way. A multicache is a series of caches, but only one cache listing exists. An event cache can have multiple caches as well, but they shouldn't be listed separately.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location™

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Caches at events create no additional load whatsoever on the admins.

 

quote:
A multicache is a series of caches, but only one cache listing exists. An event cache can have multiple caches as well, but they shouldn't be listed separately.
Agreed!

 

As was explained in the discussion with the admins and yourself, the temp caches were not submitted as additional cache pages (with GC numbers), but rather were simply logged on the main event's page as short single line logs that state the name of the temp cache.

 

Please see the 2002 WGA Geo-Picnic as an example.

 

I too am against the practice of submitting one day caches for approval as individual GC records in your database. Its a waste of both admin time and database resources.

 

That is not what was asked for, so many of us are still at a loss as to why they can't be logged on the event page.

 

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[This message was edited by Team CacheCows of Wisconsin on October 15, 2002 at 02:59 PM.]

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#include "My reply from the other thread..."

 

I think I had mentioned this once in some other thread (maybe after the Chicago picnic) but perhaps there needs to be another cache type, such as a "One-Day Cache".

 

I've been to a few cache events, and while, granted, they can be an easy way to pad your stats, it's not like I didn't have to make an effort to find them. It was just the fact that there were many caches in a small area and a whole day to find them that enabled this.

 

I can understand just making one log on an event cache if you showed up instead of one log for each cache found. That's why it would be nice to have a temporary cache type so that an event organizer can create a separate log for each cache hidden. The difference between this and a regular cache is that the temporary one would not show up on any kind of search. You would have to have a direct link going to it from the main event cache page. You wouldn't even need to worry about archiving it. Perhaps the page would be set so that it was locked until a certain time (to keep event-goers from peeking) and then opened after the event for people to log their finds.

 

If not, then what happened that there is suddenly an issue with logging multiple finds on the event page? It would seem that it would be less work for the admins if it went that way.

 

Just my $0.02.

 

Besides, I thought the number of finds didn't matter... icon_wink.gif

 

- - - - -

Wisconsin Geocaching Association

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As the main organizer for the Chicago Pincic, I'd have to come down on the side of CacheCows and Dave on this one.

 

I personally went out and placed 5 caches of varying degrees for the Chicago Pincic. The purpose was to have caches all within walking distance of the main picnic area. Sure, there were caches already in Busse Woods, and many more have been placed after. But I wanted some way to have people be able to turn to their new friend across the picnic table and say "Let's go find a Geocache."

 

The caches that I placed took a great deal of effort to place and find. One of the four remained up permanently as the 2002 Picnic Memorial: Determination and Deet. The other four stayed up for two weeks to allow cachers unable to attend the event to find and log the caches.

 

Enough whining from me - how about an alternative solution...

 

It seems to me that these temporary caches put far less burden on the servers than caches that never get approved. If you're looking to save server space and maintenance effort, why not have the unapproved caches go into a separate table on the server until they're approved. If they don't get approved after a month, they're eventually deleted from the temp area without having an impact on the main tables and queries.

 

That way only approved caches (short duration ones included) would ever have a lasting impact on the server. As a side benefit, you could even make the GC hex numbers last longer by only assigning them once they're approved. Caches in the temporary table would not be assigned a permanent Hex number until the approval goes through.

 

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

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quote:
It ain't about padding.

 

It's about the purpose of the site and the load that the admins have for approving caches.


 

I don't disagree with the fact that the admins do a lot of work in keeping up the site and that a dozen caches appearing all at once for an event which are going to be archived a day later would put a lot of extra work on them. How's this for a solution:

 

Give up a little control over the site.

 

Using my above example of a special temporary event cache, how about giving a trusted individual in an established organization, such as Alan of the WGA, the ability to enter in an event cache and self-approve it? He wouldn't be able to approve normal caches, just event ones, and then just for his own events. This would add no extra work for the regular admins.

 

The only thing that would have to be done is deciding on qualifications for who to give access to. The person would have to represent an established group (perhaps registering organizations as "official" groups? Perhaps have some sort of one-time registration fee or dues for the privelege?), and probably be someone who has been around the sport for awhile and has many finds/hides to their name, so you can vouch for their experience.

 

Then create a special access level for them. Put some kind of check and balance system in place to prevent abuses, just in case.

 

There you go, problem solved, plus you've added value to Geocaching events which are important, in order to bring more people into the sport.

 

Discuss...

 

- - - - -

Wisconsin Geocaching Association

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I guess I'm wondering what the real problem is. Is it space on the server or admin time?

 

At the GPGeocaching 2002 Cache Bash, my husband and I hid 12 caches for attendees to hunt on June 1st. We allowed attendees to log for each of their finds. Its my understanding that its up to the cache owner to allow or disallow the individual finds. If someone posts a find to one of my caches, I have the option to delete it. So how is that more work for admins? The finds were all logged under the event, not under individual postings for the temp caches. There were a couple of people who didn't want to play that day, but stopped by, so I gave them some of the waypoints. No big deal.

 

If people wanted to hunt the caches after the event, they emailed me and I sent them the waypoints afterwards, but with the warning that we'd be picking up the caches in two weeks.

 

And speaking of padding... if we had posted all those caches as "hides", then our count would be inflated. But we didn't want to. Our reward was seeing lots of people come together and talk about the days activities. So, I don't think that individual postings for temp caches is a good idea at all. The way we did the Spring event was just fine.

 

I'm just not understanding what the problem is with the way it has been. Just post the event general information and leave the find logs up to the cache owner. If the cache owner is allowing an inordinate number of finds for an event, then someone can question that. If people cannot attend an event, so what? If you must, you could allow the cache owner to limit the number of find logs for a geocacher on events. But I really think that we are talking about something thats not broken.

 

Enlighten me, please? I'd like to help, but don't really understand the problem yet.

 

SpinWebby

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Kind of brings up a point, what are finds and what aren't?

 

Then the "count" is only for finds that you can log here. What about finds of caches from othe sites or private hides? Does everyone keep a logbook?

 

This is why I like letterboxing--the stamp proves you found it. It's really only the honor system with geocaching. But, maybe that's why "the score doesn't count" here.

 

CR

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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):

Caches that are up one day and gone the next aren't really appropriate for the purpose of the site. However, an event cache is.

 

Look at it this way. A multicache is a series of caches, but only one cache listing exists. An event cache can have multiple caches as well, but they shouldn't be listed separately.


 

There is a fundamental difference between an event and a multi-cache. From my experience, a multi-cache involves a series of waypoints that are meant to be hunted sequentially. Each waypoint MAY have a cache container, or it may not, but they all have clues for the following waypoint. In theory, you cannot find the final cache without finding the other caches.

 

The caches at the events I have attended have all stood independantly of one another. They each stood on their own, and could be hunted in any order. There were each, without question, an individual single-stage cache.

 

The ONLY relation that an event has to being a multi-cache is the fact that you must arrive at the co-ordinates of the event and pick up a sheet of paper with the waypoints to the temporary caches. Viewed this way, an event that has 18 individual temporary caches actually has 18 two stage multi-caches!

 

Allowing one to log only the event as a cache find and not allowing finds for the individual caches featured in the event is the same as allowing a cacher to log a find for arriving at the parking lot of a large state park, but not allowing logs for the 5 individual caches hidden THROUGHOUT the park.

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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):

It's about the purpose of the site and the load that the admins have for approving caches.

 


 

Okay I can understand the load thing. not sure the best way to minamise that. but I think telling people "NO you can't post those." is not the best solution. because then you run the risk of rallying the anti virt/locationless people to say "well then, include those in the NO list".

 

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):

If it's temporary, why post it? The idea for having listings is that folks can look them up at any time and seek them out. Caches that are up one day and gone the next aren't really appropriate for the purpose of the site. However, an event cache is.


 

I am (or was) trying to post up to a month in advance to give folks plenty of notice in much the same way an event would be done. while the cache itself is temporary the fact that it can been seen for such a long period gives folks a chance to plan for it. so how is it different from an event?

 

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):

 

Look at it this way. A multicache is a series of caches, but only one cache listing exists. An event cache can have multiple caches as well, but they shouldn't be listed separately.


 

Well my one issue with that comment is what about the people who post MULTIPLE normal caches that and calling the collection of them a Multi-stage. you can log a find for each stage.

 

I site example

 

Lord of the Rings

 

It uses 4 Single stages to devulge the location of this one. It is also by no means a lone example, in our area atleast. as it was inspired by antother local cacher. Doesn't that create a load problem or are these going to be disallowed too.

 

My Solution. Gives each user control to use one cache page each for all thier ONE-day/Temp caches. (archive/unarchive , I know we can disable/enable but those still show up on the closest lists) as it is only a temp/one-day thing I don't think it really would hurt anything as the cache would be removed almost as fast as it was placed. I could have reused my old Halloween cahe page. this might have help minimise server/admin load and space.

 

Just a thought.

 

I also like Cheesehead Dave's Idea of give some outside people rights to approve only temp/one-day caches.

 

Thank you

 

Cache On!!

 

James

"Big Dog"

-Clan Ferguson

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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):

...the load that the admins have for approving caches.


 

And yet, on numerous times people have volunteered to assist in the process, and the calls have gone unanswered. If you need help approving cache, I'd be glad to help - as would others I'm sure.

 

=========================

 

From my understanding on from e-mails I've seen, the example that Clan Ferguson sited may also be affected and disallowed in the future. Am I right to understand that multiple stages to a final cache where each of the initial stages is listed as a separate cache page are also going to be disallowed?

 

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

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I think there is some misunderstanding here. What I think Jeremy is talking about is the creating of a page for each individual temporary cache to be placed during an event cache (picnic, etc...). I can see how this can be an additional burden on the admins and resources.

 

What some others are talking about is placing several caches at an event and allowing people to log multiple finds for that event. I think this was done at the Chicago area picnic. I know some heads were turned when a bunch of people started logging numerous finds for the same event cache. Once the situation was explained, then most people had no problem with it.

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

What I think Jeremy is talking about is the creating of a page for each individual temporary cache to be placed during an event cache (picnic, etc...).

 

What some others are talking about is placing several caches at an event and allowing people to log multiple finds for that event.


 

I clearly explained to Jeremy and the admins that I was NOT talking about creating seperate individual pages for the temp caches, just to archive them a day later. I clearly said all we did was allow short, single line find logs to be made on the event cache's page that stated the name of the temp cache. Jeremy said no, that was not allowed.

 

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can you provide a copy of this discussion? icon_frown.gif

 

quote:
Originally posted by Team CacheCows of Wisconsin:

I clearly explained to Jeremy and the admins that I was NOT talking about creating seperate individual pages for the temp caches, just to archive them a day later. I clearly said all we did was allow short, single line find logs to be made on the event cache's page that stated the name of the temp cache. Jeremy said no, that was not allowed


 

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quote:
Originally posted by Markwell:

And yet, on numerous times people have volunteered to assist in the process, and the calls have gone unanswered.


 

I believe we have a large enough list of manageable approvers at the moment. Here are the combined issues as to why temporary caches should not be created:

 

1. Temporary caches are exactly that: Temporary. I didn't think it was necessary to apply the "semi-permanent" to "permanent" rule to geocache listings as we do to virtual caches, since in almost all cases they are meant to be there tomorrow.

 

2. An "event" as defined can contain "caches," much like multicaches. If you want to post coordinates to pre-event caches on the event cache page, feel free. The fact that these caches are part of a specific event does not warrant their own cache page.

 

3. Use existing caches if you want to, say, provide pieces of coordinates in caches to find a final cache. I'd say the exception would be if the caches are farther than 10+ miles away from each other. Having 5 separate caches listed in the same park doesn't make much sense to me.

 

I couldn't give two hoots if someone wants to log an event cache twice. It's their find count and there is no competition here. So if you find a cache at an event, knock yourself out.

 

I gues my question is, what's the point? People at the event seek these things out, so what's wrong with using the event cache page?

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

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quote:
Originally posted by Team CacheCows of Wisconsin:

 

I clearly explained to Jeremy and the admins that I was NOT talking about creating seperate individual pages for the temp caches, just to archive them a day later. I clearly said all we did was allow short, single line find logs to be made on the event cache's page that stated the name of the temp cache. Jeremy said no, that was not allowed.


 

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

I couldn't give two hoots if someone wants to log an event cache twice. It's their find count and there is no competition here. So if you find a cache at an event, knock yourself out.

 

I guess my question is, what's the point? People at the event seek these things out, so what's wrong with using the event cache page?

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location


 

So, either there was some sort of miscommunication between Team CacheCows and Jeremy, or else Jeremy has reversed his position. Either way, temporary physical caches at an Event cache should be listed and logged on the page for the event, not listed individually. Multiple logs for an Event cache are acceptable.

 

Cool.

 

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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

 

I couldn't give two hoots if someone wants to log an event cache twice. It's their find count and there is no competition here. So if you find a cache at an event, knock yourself out.

 

I gues my question is, what's the point? People at the event seek these things out, so what's wrong with using the event cache page?


 

Okay, I don't have any problem in that case. I guess the real issue is the posting of temporary caches, caches that are posted individually for a short amount of time (undefined as yet, but I have no interest in going down THAT road). I can understand that its just too much to ask admins to have to process those.

 

THX for the clarification.

 

SpinWebby

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First Brian - we've done it differently in the past two years. 2001 picnic, temp caches were logged on the picnic page. 2002 picnic, I set up short-term caches (2 weeks) which were archived. People not able to attend the picnic could still find the caches, but they were archived and pulled two weeks after the event.

 

Now... No problems here Jeremy, now that you've explained your side adequately. From what I had heard, not only were we not going to be able to have the temporary caches, but I also heard that people were not going to be allowed to multiple-log on the cache event pages.

 

If I understand you correctly, and you're still going to allow mutliple logging on the cache event, I'll just revert to the method that we used in 2001, and the method that Wisconsin did at their event. No extra cache pages, and the logs will be done as log entries on the event page.

 

Ignoring the multi-cache problem still active in this thread - Everyone happy?

 

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

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I am talking about me, one cache once a year.

 

How much extra work can that be even if you consider the number of people who would goto that kind of effort. (hence is why I only do it once a year)

 

so the discission has been made and is finnial.

 

From now onm Temps or one-days are a NO-NO!!

 

am I right??

 

I get to post coords of every odd ball tourist attraction, on the off chance that sombody will go to the effort of driving out of thier way just to take a picture of thier gps. but If I want to post a cache to encourge folks to come out to public free event. safe and fun for the whole family. I should just go find some place else to post my stuff.

 

thanks to everyone who posted.

 

Cache On!!

 

James

"Big Dog"

-Clan Ferguson

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quote:
I couldn't give two hoots if someone wants to log an event cache twice. It's their find count and there is no competition here. So if you find a cache at an event, knock yourself out.

 

I gues my question is, what's the point? People at the event seek these things out, so what's wrong with using the event cache page?

 

Jeremy Irish


Thankyou Jeremy!

 

I agree that there was probably mis-communication between us and Jeremy. Probably due to Jeremy entering the thread mid-stream and making his edict without catching up on the topic. The admins understood that I was referring to posting the find logs on the event page, and not submitting seperate individual caches.

 

That's why I wanted to re-raise the situation on these forums, so that the issues could be re-discussed and perhaps reason prevail. As I said, I am very happy, and thanks all that pitched in here.

 

Clan Ferguson, I'm personally sorry about your situation. My understanding is that the posting of very shortlived caches as their own stand-alone cache will not be accepted on the grounds of precedent setting and resources. Might I make a suggestion? How about making up your Halloween cache, getting it approved as a regular cache, and then just using the 'Temporarily disable this cache' feature to turn it on and off each year? Use the same cache page each year, making any updates to the page layout and contecnt that you desire. Just a thought.

 

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I have re-read this forum 3 times maybe I am asking the wrong question.

 

Why can't my Halloween cache be an event?? I realize that it is not a cacher only event but it is still an event.

 

or better still

 

What are the guidelines for EVENT caches??

 

which I think is what I really intended to ask.

 

Thanks again.

 

Cache On!!

 

James

"Big Dog"

-Clan Ferguson

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Oh - you mean you want us to comment on the actual question for the discussion thread? That would be a novelty. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

Playing Devil's Advocate -

If I understand the concepts, this is a one day cache where you're asking people to stop by. I guess the only thing differentiating your event cache from other events is that there is very little chance for the cachers to actually meet and congregate.

 

I vote that this event cache be listed as such, and approved.

 

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

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I was afraid to chime in, but I see we've gone around to where we started.......

 

Event caches should be geocaching events with geocaching activities for geocachers. Geocaching activities generally are cache hunts, training on compass use, discussions on issues faced by geocachers, etc. They can be strictly social as long as they're a get together for geocachers.

 

They should not be events for the general public such as concerts, garage sales, baseball games, and so on to which you invite your fellow geocachers to meet you at.

 

For every rule there is an exception, one being something like a county fair to which the general public participates, but in which someone has set up a booth to promote our sport. I've seen that posted.

 

The Halloween event that started the thread, as I recall, was something open to the neighborhood to which geocachers were invited. I don't feel that would be appropriate as a "geocaching event" but I have seen many traditional caches with a Halloween theme posted. I personnally don't see it a problem to have something like that out for a couple of weeks, archive it, then redo it next season. I think that is close enough to "permanent" to work. But that would be posted as a traditional cache, not an event.

 

~erik~ geocaching.com adminion

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Erik thank you.

 

Just because I don't want to miss lead people my halloween cache has already been approved. I was just worried about future versions.

 

Now I have one more request:

Could we get Erik's post (or a varation there of) intergrated into the cache hidding guidelines please.

 

Thank you.

 

and I still hope to see local cachers on Halloween.

 

Cache On!!

 

James

"Big Dog"

-Clan Ferguson

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quote:
Originally posted by Markwell:

 

Playing Devil's Advocate -

If I understand the concepts, this is a one day cache where you're asking people to stop by. I guess the only thing differentiating your event cache from other events is that there is very little chance for the cachers to actually meet and congregate.

 

I vote that this event cache be listed as such, and approved.

 

http://www.markwell.us

http://www.chicagogeocaching.com

 

I will see you there right? After all you were one of the folks that help convince me to do it again and post a new page. icon_razz.gif

 

Cache On!!

 

James

"Big Dog"

-Clan Ferguson

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