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gramleo

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Hello any one out there put a cache on a pylon then can't get it published untill you get permision from the power company. I have found plenty of caches on such places and wonder if other caches have had the same problem. Thanks for any replys gramleo

 

Interesting point, it's unlikely that the pylon is on land owned by the 'leccy board, so I would have thought that strictly speaking it would be the landowner and not the 'leccy board who needs to provide permission.

 

In any case if you're thinking that by finding someone who's already done this you can use that as a precedent then you're going to be disappointed as the reviewers won't see it like that. Also I doubt if anyone with a cache which doesn't have approval is going to stick their head above the parapet in case they get their cache archived.

 

Good Luck!

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On a pylon? A pylon? Good God, what's wrong with you? Find a better location.

 

Might you consider a more attractive location instead?

 

Welcome to the forums.

 

It might be that the pylon is in an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, apart from the pylons that is :). The pylon in question would then be just the support/hiding place for the cache.

 

SJ

Edited by Shanghai Joe
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No, we won't publish a cache on (or close to) a pylon unless you can get permission from the relevant body. Why? All pylons I've seen have notices on them saying things like, "Danger of Death" and lots of barbed wire round the legs. It's too keep people off them. Add to this the ongoing security from terrorist attacks in the UK anyone 'hanging around' a pylon may be considered suspicious and could be reported to the police. Not going to happen? You'd be surprised the number of times cachers are stopped by the police/security who've asked what they are doing.

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

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Obviously this is the Reviewers' call, but for my money, it's going a little far. The barbed wire around the legs of pylons is to stop idiots climbing them to recover a stranded kite, not to keep people 'away from them'. I've found (and hidden - long since archived) caches on pylons and they've all been simple magnetic micros at knee height on a pylon deemed safe enough by the power company to have a public footpath pass right by (or even between!) the legs. As for the terrorist risk to pylons, I've not heard of any attacks on them. Airports, train stations, building, yes, but not the power infrastructure as, being a network, you'd have to take out a lot of pylons before you actually caused much disruption. Cachers tend to get stopped when 'acting suspiciously' by police pretty much anywhere, as it's the activity of hunting about which looks suspicious, not the location it's being done in - with the possible exception of playgrounds! I was recently stopped by a pair of PCSO's caching near a clothes recycling bin because I may have been thinking about climbing inside to steal old jeans and pants... I told them about caching, showed them my GPS and all was cool, because they've special training about how to deal with eccentric people.

 

In conclusion, a pylon in the middle of a wood is probably less of a security risk than a cache in a phone box outside a hospital/police station/court...

 

- Just my opinion. But it'll be all street furniture in future, mark my words... <_<

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National Grid/Transco seem to think a terrorist attack on the grid infrastructure could happen.

 

Also from the National Grid website

Security

In this day and age no major piece of engineering can be built without adequate regard for security and anti-terrorism measures. We can't reveal what these measures are, but we work closely with the police, the security services and the Ministry of Defence when designing and building all our installations.

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

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I certainly wouldn't disagree with them. Almost anything 'could' happen. How likely it is that a terrorist would target a pylon or pylons rather than a sub-station or power station, on the other hand... Anyway, it's the rule, it's being applied and I for one won't be attempting to get a cache placed on (or close to - how close is close to?) a pylon approved.

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In conclusion, a pylon in the middle of a wood is probably less of a security risk than a cache in a phone box outside a hospital/police station/court...

 

 

But who in their right mind would want to hide or look for a cache on a pylon in the middle of a wood.... ??? :ph34r:

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Unfortunately these days risk analysis seems to have evolved into:

 

Possibility of "something" happening: extremely low; Consequence of it happening: serious; Risk: Serious; Answer: Say no

Possibility of "something" happening: high; Consequence of it happening: trivial; Risk: Serious; Answer: Say no

Possibility of "something" happening: unknown; Consequence of it happening: unknown; Risk: Serious; Answer: Say no

 

Whatever happened to:

Possibility of "something" happening: moderate; Consequence of it happening: moderate; Risk: Serious; Answer: Say no; Otherwise the risk is acceptable so say "Yes"

 

This is not just in Geocaching, it's an unfortunate fact of life nowadays.

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Surely we just need to apply some common sense with regard to pylons (or anything similar). There are lots of families out their caching and I dont think any children should be encouraged to think that it is okay to go anywhere near a pylon.

 

I tested one of my boys with the question "should a cache be placed on a pylon". I was very proud of his answer as he said "dont be stupid, it could be dangerous, I though we were only going to do nice caches"

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Surely we just need to apply some common sense with regard to pylons (or anything similar)....

 

So by that logic any cache which involves crossing or walking along a road should not be allowed, because roads are more dangerous than electricity pylons by an order of magnitude; oh and lamp posts, street signs, telegraph poles all have 'electricity in them' so they're out too; don't even think about putting a cache anywhere near water because you can drown in 2" you know!

 

Pylons are only dangerous once you climb up towards the transmission lines (which is why the barbed wire mentioned above is there). If they were truly dangerous then they'd all be fenced off (like sub stations, which are dangerous places), whereas in reality there's usually nothing to restrict access to the base of pylons, indeed I've seen footpaths pass between the legs of pylons.

 

I suggest that 'common sense' says there's nothing particularly dangerous about electricity pylons, and to say that they're inherently dangerous is an over reaction.

Edited by MartyBartfast
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Surely we just need to apply some common sense with regard to pylons (or anything similar)....

 

So by that logic any cache which involves crossing or walking along a road should not be allowed, because roads are more dangerous than electricity pylons by an order of magnitude; oh and lamp posts, street signs, telegraph poles all have 'electricity in them' so they're out too; don't even think about putting a cache anywhere near water because you can drown in 2" you know!

 

Pylons are only dangerous once you climb up towards the transmission lines (which is why the barbed wire mentioned above is there). If they were truly dangerous then they'd all be fenced off (like sub stations, which are dangerous places), whereas in reality there's usually nothing to restrict access to the base of pylons, indeed I've seen footpaths pass between the legs of pylons.

 

I suggest that 'common sense' says there's nothing particularly dangerous about electricity pylons, and to say that they're inherently dangerous is an over reaction.

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Surely we just need to apply some common sense with regard to pylons (or anything similar)....

 

So by that logic any cache which involves crossing or walking along a road should not be allowed, because roads are more dangerous than electricity pylons by an order of magnitude; oh and lamp posts, street signs, telegraph poles all have 'electricity in them' so they're out too; don't even think about putting a cache anywhere near water because you can drown in 2" you know!

 

Pylons are only dangerous once you climb up towards the transmission lines (which is why the barbed wire mentioned above is there). If they were truly dangerous then they'd all be fenced off (like sub stations, which are dangerous places), whereas in reality there's usually nothing to restrict access to the base of pylons, indeed I've seen footpaths pass between the legs of pylons.

 

I suggest that 'common sense' says there's nothing particularly dangerous about electricity pylons, and to say that they're inherently dangerous is an over reaction.

 

Absolutely spot on! I would apply common sense with regard to placing caches next to busy roads and all the other examples you gave. I am fully aware that the chance of being electricuted is very low I would much prefer my children to stay clear anyway just as I would want them to avoid crossing busy roads, playing near deep water etc. I would rather over react initially then asess each situation as it arises. No doubt we will all differ in the subsequent conclusions we reach and we will never always be correct.

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Absolutely spot on! I would apply common sense with regard to placing caches next to busy roads and all the other examples you gave.

Ah! Common sense, that increasingly scarce resource

I am fully aware that the chance of being electricuted is very low I would much prefer my children to stay clear anyway just as I would want them to avoid crossing busy roads, playing near deep water etc.

I am delighted you take your responsibility as a parent seriously. Unfortunately there are all too many today who believe it is someone else's responsibility to monitor and supervise their children's activities. Such as Geocaching reviewers. As a parent it is YOU who should warn your children of those dangers you mention (and I am sure you do). That doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't utilise cache locations that involve a small element of risk.

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Absolutely spot on! I would apply common sense with regard to placing caches next to busy roads and all the other examples you gave.

Ah! Common sense, that increasingly scarce resource

I am fully aware that the chance of being electricuted is very low I would much prefer my children to stay clear anyway just as I would want them to avoid crossing busy roads, playing near deep water etc.

I am delighted you take your responsibility as a parent seriously. Unfortunately there are all too many today who believe it is someone else's responsibility to monitor and supervise their children's activities. Such as Geocaching reviewers. As a parent it is YOU who should warn your children of those dangers you mention (and I am sure you do). That doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't utilise cache locations that involve a small element of risk.

I have no issue with cache locations having an element of risk, in fact some of our own caches require some scrambling, balancing and climbing. Some of our favourite caches have involved rivers, lakes, embankments etc and the geocaching experience would be very much reduced without them. My point is that IMHO the leg of an electricity pylon does not fall into that category. "If the only reason you are bringing me to a location is the pylon then find another location" unless of course the pylon is of Anglo Saxon origin.

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The pylon might be an interesting one. One cache I found on a particular fine example of a Type 4 with the revised cross-bracing* was on the leg which projected onto the towpath of a canal - two hazards in one! As a kid I was told to look both ways before crossing the road, avoid playing on the railway line and that the top nine-tenths of pylons were dangerous; all still good, solid advice.

 

Regarding the banning (let's not shy away from the word) of caches on (or close to - still wondering how close is close) pylons, is that a Groundspeak instruction, a GAGB guideline which has been adopted by the UK reviewers or something they've decided upon within the UK reviewer community?

 

*Nope, it was just a pylon, but like my long-since-archived cache on one, it was a part of a cache series along a trail - the Ridgeway long-distance path in my case and a canal series for the other. It was a charming spot actually, made a little magical by the iron giant looming out of the morning mist as I cycled towards it, watched by swans.

Edited by Simply Paul
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Unfortunately these days risk analysis seems to have evolved into:

 

Possibility of "something" happening: extremely low; Consequence of it happening: serious; Risk: Serious; Answer: Say no

Possibility of "something" happening: high; Consequence of it happening: trivial; Risk: Serious; Answer: Say no

Possibility of "something" happening: unknown; Consequence of it happening: unknown; Risk: Serious; Answer: Say no

 

Whatever happened to:

Possibility of "something" happening: moderate; Consequence of it happening: moderate; Risk: Serious; Answer: Say no; Otherwise the risk is acceptable so say "Yes"

 

This is not just in Geocaching, it's an unfortunate fact of life nowadays.

 

Very unfortunate. Because when everything is high risk, then nothing is high risk.

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My point is that IMHO the leg of an electricity pylon does not fall into that category. "If the only reason you are bringing me to a location is the pylon then find another location" unless of course the pylon is of Anglo Saxon origin.

Fair enough, I couldn't argue with that point of view. I think we both agree that risk aside, a pylon is probably not a "quality" cache location. :)

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My point is that IMHO the leg of an electricity pylon does not fall into that category. "If the only reason you are bringing me to a location is the pylon then find another location" unless of course the pylon is of Anglo Saxon origin.

Fair enough, I couldn't argue with that point of view. I think we both agree that risk aside, a pylon is probably not a "quality" cache location. :)

 

That's true, but when I go on a 10 mile circular route with forty caches to find along the way, I hope for at least a few quality caches, but I don't expect them all to be. And as Marty said, the foot of a pylon is no riskier than the base of a tree or footpath sign. I'd rather have a couple of dull caches along a mile stretch than nothing - it gives me a good reason to stop and rest my legs for a bit, and adds interest to the walk.

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... a pylon is probably not a "quality" cache location. :)
But no worse than base of a footpath sign, bottom of a fence post, underneath a water trough, under a stile, etc. ... and no more hazardous either.

Perhaps a pylon's better in one respect than the base of a post/sign: any dog that pees on the cache is instantly eloctrocuted, leaving char marks on the ground to warn you off picking up the mucky container. :anibad:

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Two things amuse* me about this discussion.

 

Firstly, there is no risk whatsoever to the cacher placing or retrieving a cache from near the base of a pylon. The risk only appears when you climb the pylon and grab hold of one of the cables whilst grounding yourself (which includes standing on the pylon).

 

Secondly, why is it that we only get to hear about new rules like this when an aggrieved cacher comes to the forum to complain? If Groundspeak want to introduce rules then fine: it's their listing site, they can introduce whatever rules for listing they see fit. But why not publicise them?

 

* I use the term sarcastically: I'm fed up with this constant rule creep.

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Leaving aside the debate about whether pylons are dangerous, or whether they represent a quality cache hide, there are a couple of things that I think need to be clarified:

 

1. How close does a cache have to be to a pylon before permission from the National Grid is required?

 

2. What constitues a Pylon in the minds of the reviewers? Does this rule only apply to metal pylons; does it include wooden 'H' frame poles? does it include single wooden poles? Or is it goverend by the voltage being carried?

 

I'd also be interested to know where this new rule comes from as it seems to be news to almost everyone on here. Is it a Groundspeak rule, is it from the GAGB guidelines, did it come about because of an incident involving a pylon and feedback from the National Grid, or is it just something the reviewers came up with themselves? and is it written down in any of the various rules/guidelines?

Edited by MartyBartfast
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I found this in the National Grid safety information on the web;

 

Leisure activities near overhead Electricity power lines

Overhead high voltage electricity lines are normally bare (uninsulated) and if an object gets too close it is possible that a ‘flashover’ can occur, where electricity will jump over a small distance to reach earth. This can kill or cause severe shocks and burns to any person nearby.

In order to prevent this happening, there are minimum safety clearances between overhead lines and the ground, roads or objects on which a person can stand.

Please take note of the advice below.

• Never fly kites or model aircraft near overhead power lines

• Be careful to avoid lines when operating light aircraft, hot air balloons, gliders etc.

• Fishing rods and poles made from carbon fibre and similar materials will conduct electricity. Fish at least 30 metres or more away from overhead lines

• Do not light fires beneath overhead lines

• Do not aim shotguns or pistols at overhead power lines

• Do not place geocaches on or within 0.1 mile of an electricity pylon especially if it is a micro or smaller.

 

:anitongue:

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I was FTF on cache a few weeks ago which was magnetic keysafe attached inside the perimeter fence of an electricity substation. It's a one of those smallish substations for a housing estate.

 

The reviewer must have considered it to be OK or else it would never have been published...

 

 

Mark

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I was FTF on cache a few weeks ago which was magnetic keysafe attached inside the perimeter fence of an electricity substation. It's a one of those smallish substations for a housing estate.

 

The reviewer must have considered it to be OK or else it would never have been published...

 

 

Mark

 

Reviewers should be required to go out and check the placement of each cache before publishing it. Think of the children!

 

Of course, that would be very time consuming. So reviewers should be full time, highly paid staff, recruited from our most experienced cachers.

 

Volunteers please email here to apply.

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National Grid/Transco seem to think a terrorist attack on the grid infrastructure could happen.

 

Also from the National Grid website

Security

In this day and age no major piece of engineering can be built without adequate regard for security and anti-terrorism measures. We can't reveal what these measures are, but we work closely with the police, the security services and the Ministry of Defence when designing and building all our installations.

 

That's a laugh. The plans will be a nice warm 'Emergency Co-Ordination Center' with a big diesel generator, diesel supply, emergency provisions and water tank, for those in the know and their chums. The plans for us will be

when the water supply fails ;) Edited by pklong
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I was FTF on cache a few weeks ago which was magnetic keysafe attached inside the perimeter fence of an electricity substation. It's a one of those smallish substations for a housing estate.

 

The reviewer must have considered it to be OK or else it would never have been published...

 

 

Mark

 

Delta68: Would you be so kind as to post the GC code for that cache please? I'd love to find out who reviewed it, because they should be shot!

 

Regardless of what type of substation (in this case, what you're referring to is in fact, an HV/LV downstep transformer, which still carries 11kV to be broken down to 230vAC for customers homes) - anything placed inside an electricity substation becomes the sole responsibility and property therefore, of UK Power Networks, and you are not permitted to enter a substation or a transformer housing to retrieve anything.

 

If you happen to get too close to one where the earthing has been stolen (as happened to one on my housing estate a month ago), you're liable to get some pretty serious burns or wind up dead.

 

Wherever that cache is, it should be disabled, pronto.

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Delta68: Would you be so kind as to post the GC code for that cache please? I'd love to find out who reviewed it, because they should be shot!

 

 

You're assuming the reviewer knew it was inside the fence - highly unlikely, I'd have thought.

 

If anybody's to blame it would be the hider - and every subsequent finder that's logged their find and not brought it to the reviewer's attention.....

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Delta68: Would you be so kind as to post the GC code for that cache please? I'd love to find out who reviewed it, because they should be shot!

 

 

You're assuming the reviewer knew it was inside the fence - highly unlikely, I'd have thought.

 

If anybody's to blame it would be the hider - and every subsequent finder that's logged their find and not brought it to the reviewer's attention.....

 

Good point, keehotee. This really should be passed onto the reviewer, and to be honest, you're right. The hider is at fault for putting it there.

 

I was just having a google round the web, and found this, which I thought might be of some benefit towards the discussion. It's from a guy called Johnnygeo, who is a Geocacher, and appears to have a fair amount of experience in and around High Voltage electricity. Perhaps having a read through this blog might help people... Johnnygeo's Geocaching Electrical Safety blog

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You're assuming the reviewer knew it was inside the fence - highly unlikely, I'd have thought.

 

If 'near' a pylon is a no-no, then 'near' a substation should be close enough to be a no-no even if it's not obvious to a reviewer if it's inside the fence or not.

It's a puzzle cache so the CO might have lied about the final location anyway (It does happen! :o )

 

If anybody's to blame it would be the hider - and every subsequent finder that's logged their find and not brought it to the reviewer's attention.....

 

I thought it was a bit of a duff location but never gave it second thought really...

 

It will probably take anyone about 30 seconds to identify it in our finds list

 

 

Mark

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You're assuming the reviewer knew it was inside the fence - highly unlikely, I'd have thought.

 

If 'near' a pylon is a no-no, then 'near' a substation should be close enough to be a no-no even if it's not obvious to a reviewer if it's inside the fence or not.

It's a puzzle cache so the CO might have lied about the final location anyway (It does happen! :o )

 

If anybody's to blame it would be the hider - and every subsequent finder that's logged their find and not brought it to the reviewer's attention.....

 

I thought it was a bit of a duff location but never gave it second thought really...

 

It will probably take anyone about 30 seconds to identify it in our finds list

 

 

Mark

 

Identify, yes. Quite possibly - I see quite a few it could be, Delta68, but the ones I suspect it to be are all limited to premium members only, and since I'm not a premium member yet (although hoping to upgrade soon) it's pretty hard to identify - I suspect it's probably "Reduced Wattage" or one of the other electrically named caches you have from about 3 weeks back.

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Identify, yes. Quite possibly - I see quite a few it could be, Delta68, but the ones I suspect it to be are all limited to premium members only, and since I'm not a premium member yet (although hoping to upgrade soon) it's pretty hard to identify - I suspect it's probably "Reduced Wattage" or one of the other electrically named caches you have from about 3 weeks back.

:rolleyes: Not too good at Geostalking are you? :lol:

I said that it was a Puzzle and I was FTF on it.

It's also NOT Premium Member Only

*cough* Cov Power *cough*

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Identify, yes. Quite possibly - I see quite a few it could be, Delta68, but the ones I suspect it to be are all limited to premium members only, and since I'm not a premium member yet (although hoping to upgrade soon) it's pretty hard to identify - I suspect it's probably "Reduced Wattage" or one of the other electrically named caches you have from about 3 weeks back.

:rolleyes: Not too good at Geostalking are you? :lol:

I said that it was a Puzzle and I was FTF on it.

It's also NOT Premium Member Only

*cough* Cov Power *cough*

 

Haha! No, actually, I'm not. I've only been caching for about 5 or 6 weeks, so I'm quite new to this. Thanks for the hints anyway, sorry if I've sounded a bit pompous, it just bothers me to think people are silly enough to hide caches in dangerous places... :angry:

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Haha! No, actually, I'm not. I've only been caching for about 5 or 6 weeks, so I'm quite new to this. Thanks for the hints anyway, sorry if I've sounded a bit pompous, it just bothers me to think people are silly enough to hide caches in dangerous places... :angry:

The original quote was "magnetic keysafe attached inside the perimeter fence of an electricity substation". I took this to mean it was directly on the fence inside, not a long way inside. If so, this was not dangerous. I think it's not a good place for a cache, and it almost certainly hasn't got permission to be there, but it's not dangerous.

 

Rgds, Andy

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The original quote was "magnetic keysafe attached inside the perimeter fence of an electricity substation". I took this to mean it was directly on the fence inside, not a long way inside. If so, this was not dangerous. I think it's not a good place for a cache, and it almost certainly hasn't got permission to be there, but it's not dangerous.

 

Rgds, Andy

 

I'm inclined to agree.

Unlike the majority on here, I do have extensive HV experience - latterly as a co-ordinating AP for the MoD, switching up to 33kv. I also have a lot of H&S experience.

If the sub has a fence where it is possible to pass your hand through, there will have been no anticipated risk in doing that.

 

However the issue here is certainly one of permission, rather than risk.

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I'd also be interested to know where this new rule comes from as it seems to be news to almost everyone on here. Is it a Groundspeak rule, is it from the GAGB guidelines, did it come about because of an incident involving a pylon and feedback from the National Grid, or is it just something the reviewers came up with themselves? and is it written down in any of the various rules/guidelines?

 

 

BUT, its not a new???? It has been going for at least 2 years that I know of? :blink:

 

I had an email conversation about caches hidden below pylons with our then Scottish reviewer about 2 years ago and she explained the ins and outs of why they are not allowed which made perfect sense to me.

 

Surprised it is not on the list of 'no's' somewhere? :unsure:

 

Is there any wonder we are all confused by what we can and cannot do??? :huh:

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BUT, its not a new???? It has been going for at least 2 years that I know of? :blink:

Now that's interesting, but it was certainly news to me, and apparently many others.

 

Surprised it is not on the list of 'no's' somewhere? :unsure:

Yep, me too

 

Is there any wonder we are all confused by what we can and cannot do??? :huh:

I agree, and judging from the lack of response from any reviewers it looks like we'll have to stay in the dark (at least until we place a cache and have it knocked back because of a rule that is kept under wraps).

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And did many realise that non-physical stages of caches have proximity rules?

I didn't until I fell foul of the rule, they must be at least 50ft apart.

Not seen this documented anywhere.

Quite the reverse in fact:

Physical elements of different geocaches should generally be at least 0.10 miles apart....Non-physical caches or stages including reference points, trailhead/parking coordinates and/or a question to answer waypoints are exempt from this guideline.
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I'd love to find out who reviewed it, because they should be shot!

 

Shooting is a little extreme don't you think ? -

Our reviwers do a very valuable and time consuming job (for zero pay) and occasionaly a cache slips through, that maybe shouldn't have

 

You're assuming the reviewer knew it was inside the fence - highly unlikely, I'd have thought.

I also would have thought this unlikely

 

If anybody's to blame it would be the hider - and every subsequent finder that's logged their find and not brought it to the reviewer's attention.....

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