Who has to pay the price?

[+JackHoe]

Last few months, several coins wich I bought got lost in the mail. If it's a production coin and still available, most of the time you get a new one. On eBay you get an refund, but that means the seller is paying the loss. The last one which got lost was a geocoin fairy, which was sold out. Fortunately someone contacted me and we were able to make a trade (Geoswag gave me a choice wich one they should send instead). The one before that got lost is a JCanyoneer Orbital coin #9. This is a unique coin. Every JCanyoneer coin is unique. So not only it's a money loss, but also a piece of art got lost. I was able to make a deal with Jeremy, but do we, seller and buyer have to pay the price for a shipping company not doing their job right? There was a trackingnumber on it, but that goes as far as the border. You can take ensurance, but that is quite expensive. If I make a mistake in my job, my boss or I have to pay for that, not the costumer we work for. So why is it that we agree paying for the shipping company not doing their job and not taking responsability for their personnal making mistakes? I think the shipping company should make a good price and take responsibility and should make sure the packets en envelopes do arrive and when they don't, they should pay the price. I just think the way it goes now, is not fair, neither for the seller nor the buyer.

 

What do you think?

[+OZ2CPU]

it has always been like that, shipments get lost all the time,

how ever my personal idea is, nothing gets really lost,

there is no such thing, it is simply stolen by underpayed shipment workers,

they just use the word lost instead of stolen, since it makes you accept it easier.

 

lost.. see the joke.. if some thing is lost, then go look for it, until you find it,

if they cant find it, it is not lost, but stolen !

then handle it like a stolen case, but they just dont take their responsibility

Edited March 15, 2012 by OZ2CPU

[+Phish_bonz]

I whole heartedly agree. I've been trying to convince PayPal of that for years. I offer insurance on shipping but if the customer doesn't take it, I'm still held responsible even though I can prove shipping & in a timely manner. Seems illegal to me. Its like making car manufacters liable for you having ins. It is a separate item and the responsibility of the buyer, not the seller to get insurance if wanted. What will happen if this escalates is insurance will be added to all shipments, increasing the cost to ship. Not fair to either buyer or seller & all because of the shipping company not being held responsible for their job. Where else do you see such a thing? Crazy...

[+LadyBee4T]

I completely agree. I started a similar thread a few months ago after "losing" a package and having to refund a considerable amount of money. Only 3 of my mailers have not arrived but all three were to Germany. In that thread someone said they used shipsurance. It is $1.50 per $100 so now the ones that I ship outside the US and cost a significant amount I insure them for my own protection. I haven't had to use it so far and I hope I never have to.

[+rsfish1]

What's the answer to an imperfect shipping company? Or the lesser of all the evils? Always reverse the situation. How would I feel if I spent $50 and did not receive what I paid for? The seller has proof of it being shipped. But the shipping company lost it. Lost many times means the packaging was crunched and chewed up in a machine. The Ship To and From address made in to confetti. And this shiny coin goes in to a bin with all kinds of other things that have had their envelopes destroyed.

 

So here I am as a buyer with nothing to show for my $50. Sorry. But I should get what I paid for. And how should I be out money? I have done nothing wrong except buy from you. So as a seller, if it is more then I can afford, or want to risk losing in value, I insure through Shipsurance. $1.50 per $100 and it is very easy to use.

 

Especially when dealing with International shipments, just think of how many hands, conveyor belts, etc a package passes through. Don't get me wrong. I think the postal service should be responsible for paying for these lost items. But it won't and we can't change that. So everyone has to find what is the best solution for them. For me it is to build the cost in to the products I sell and insure when I feel I need to.

 

In my eyes, trades done with fellow cachers fall under the same guidelines. I promised to get a coin(s) to someone in exchange for a coin(s) from them. But I think that it is up to the individuals doing the trade also to work something out.

[+Droo]

As coin trading becomes more international one really has to evaluate the abilities of one's own and other countries' abilities to adequately provide postal services. Hold the shipping company responsible? You mean the government? Good luck with that.

[+mpilchfamily]

With shipping companies tracking packages on a regular basis now it shouldn't be hard for them to figure out it went missing between point D and E. When a package arrives at a sorting facility it gets checked in then checked out. The Drives too check off that they received the package then it get checked off when delivered. So if a machine does destroy the package then it should still be at the facility and the shipping company should be held responsible for retrieving the item if its still in good condition or paying for the item. There is a reasonable expectation that when you send a package that it will reach its destination. Once its in the care of the shipping company it become there problem not the person who shipped it.

 

More and more private companies are taking over shipping. In these cases the consumer should be standing up for there rights. Maybe a class action lawsuits needs to be formed to push these companies into take responsibility for the packages as they should. I don't think they should be responsible for everything. But they should be responsible up to a certain $$ amount. This way if a high dollar item gets lost and the shipper didn't want to pay for the insurance then the shipping company is only liable for up to the set $$ amount.

[+Mauison]

Interesting conversation. I've had very good luck shipping coins (knock on wood) but it sounds like when shipping internationally, getting insurance might be a good thing to do. I just looked up Shipsurance and it looks like they have a new site called InsurePost:

 

http://www.insurepost.com/questions.asp#GEN1.5

 

The above link says that InsurePost is faster if you ship one item at a time and Shipsurance is better if you have multiple shipments. Thought it might be some useful info for those who use Shipsurance.

[+keewee]

from the InsurePost website:

 

What items can I insure?

The following list of items are NOT ABLE TO BE INSURED by InsurePost.com.

 

Accounts, bills, currency, cash in transit, evidence of debt, checks, money orders, COD payments, coins (collectible coins are not excluded), securities and other negotiable papers, tickets, deeds, notes, gift cards, manuscripts, documents, neon items, hazardous material (per UPS Hazardous Materials List), LCD monitors or screens, televisions (including LCD, plasma, CRT, projection, and similar), cell phones (including mobile phones, smart phones, messaging phones, iPhones, android phones, blackberry phones, and similar), laptop computers (including tablet computers, iPads, and similar), perishable cargo or similar property, eggs, any stone or ceramic slabs, automobiles, motorcycles, live animals, flowers, plants, seeds, cigarettes/cigars, cotton, guns (guns more than 100 years old are not excluded), tobacco, windows, plate glass, stained glass, float glass, and used household goods and used personal effects.

 

*Household goods and personal effects are items that are used in a dwelling. These include furniture, appliances, clothing, linens and other household items that are not involved in a recent sale or under commercial invoice. Items sold on eBay or via online store are not considered household goods or personal effects as they are under commercial invoice.

Edited March 15, 2012 by keewee

[+LadyBee4T]

from the InsurePost website:

 

What items can I insure?

The following list of items are NOT ABLE TO BE INSURED by InsurePost.com.

 

Accounts, bills, currency, cash in transit, evidence of debt, checks, money orders, COD payments, coins (collectible coins are not excluded), ..........

 

Mine are sent as novelty game tokens. A case could be made here I think since geocoins aren't currency. .

[+Toojin]

from the InsurePost website:

 

What items can I insure?

The following list of items are NOT ABLE TO BE INSURED by InsurePost.com.

 

Accounts, bills, currency, cash in transit, evidence of debt, checks, money orders, COD payments, coins (collectible coins are not excluded),

 

ahh... but I ship game tokens...

[+keewee]

from the InsurePost website:

 

What items can I insure?

The following list of items are NOT ABLE TO BE INSURED by InsurePost.com.

 

Accounts, bills, currency, cash in transit, evidence of debt, checks, money orders, COD payments, coins (collectible coins are not excluded), ..........

 

Mine are sent as novelty game tokens. A case could be made here I think since geocoins aren't currency. .

 

Agreed, but given they are coins and they are collectible then I am unsure a claim would be successful. Has anyone approached InsurePost and asked them?

 

Or has anyone made a claim for geocoins with them?

 

Would be nice if they offered an inbound service also.

Edited March 15, 2012 by keewee

[+Toojin]

Mine are sent as novelty game tokens. A case could be made here I think since geocoins aren't currency. .

 

Agreed, but given they are coins and they are collectible then I am unsure a claim would be successful. Has anyone approached InsurePost and asked them?

 

Or has anyone made a claim for geocoins with them?

 

Would be nice if they offered an inbound service also.

 

Coins are defined as something used for money...

[+anne.and.eli]

I use stamps.com which has it's own (slightly cheaper) insurance (which I purchase for shipments over $50) and I've had to use it once and it was totally painless. I also ship game tokens. Coins/collectible coins generally refers to currency.

 

Also, I do a small internal cringe whenever I see I need to ship something to Germany. I've had quite a few things lost/severely delayed when shipping there, and no problems anywhere else. I don't know what's going on, but it's really too bad.

[+tsunrisebey]

What's the answer to an imperfect shipping company? Or the lesser of all the evils? Always reverse the situation. How would I feel if I spent $50 and did not receive what I paid for? The seller has proof of it being shipped. But the shipping company lost it. Lost many times means the packaging was crunched and chewed up in a machine. The Ship To and From address made in to confetti. And this shiny coin goes in to a bin with all kinds of other things that have had their envelopes destroyed.

 

So here I am as a buyer with nothing to show for my $50. Sorry. But I should get what I paid for. And how should I be out money? I have done nothing wrong except buy from you. So as a seller, if it is more then I can afford, or want to risk losing in value, I insure through Shipsurance. $1.50 per $100 and it is very easy to use.

 

Especially when dealing with International shipments, just think of how many hands, conveyor belts, etc a package passes through. Don't get me wrong. I think the postal service should be responsible for paying for these lost items. But it won't and we can't change that. So everyone has to find what is the best solution for them. For me it is to build the cost in to the products I sell and insure when I feel I need to.

 

In my eyes, trades done with fellow cachers fall under the same guidelines. I promised to get a coin(s) to someone in exchange for a coin(s) from them. But I think that it is up to the individuals doing the trade also to work something out.

 

I thought this was a well reasoned out answer.

[+ECplus3]

I'll have to see if Shipsurance or Insurepost are available in Canada.

 

Tracking or insurance is not an option for many postal services. I cannot get insurance or tracking on a bubble mailer through Canada Post. It just can't be done unless I want to charge my customers around $20 shipping for a single coin.

 

I've only ever had two packages lost or arrived incomplete. In both cases I ate the loss and shipped new coins. It is just a cost of doing business.

[+rsfish1]

I have contacted Shipsurance for clarification on their exceptions list. I knew of the exclusion and quite honestly just never saw a geocoin as a coin. I personally have never made a claim through them. but I have talked to 2 other sellers that have and read many posts about the use of it. many times they will pay after X number of days with an email from the buyer saying they did not recieve the package.

 

I will update everyone when I get an answer.

[+rsfish1]

Just got this email back. Directed them to look at my eBay auctions.

 

Thank you for contacting Shipsurance.

 

You can insure these items with us.

 

Regards,

Shipsurance Team

866-852-9956

customerservice@shipsurance.com

[+keewee]

Just got this email back. Directed them to look at my eBay auctions.

 

Thank you for contacting Shipsurance.

 

You can insure these items with us.

 

Regards,

Shipsurance Team

866-852-9956

customerservice@shipsurance.com

 

Awesome! Thanks for getting clarification - it is good to know as a certainty they are covered.

[+fox-and-the-hound]

There's no good answer, but I see it like this...

 

If I'm standing at the counter of a store and the item I wish to purchase is in the hands of the teller at the cash register I hand them my cache ha! I meant "cash". In return they put the item I've bought into my posession. It's not my problem how they hand it to me, but if it doesn't arrive into my hands I'm not leaving the store without another or without my money back. So I believe it's up to the seller to make it happen.

 

That being said, however, if the seller is having a regular problem with shipping they need to do whatever they have to (insurance, tracking, etc.) and add the cost of that extra effort to the customer if need be. If it doesn't reach the customer, they have the ability to seek restitution if they've taken the proper precautions.

 

Unfortunately that means everyone loses because the prices just go up.

 

I see a lot of these reports of missing international packages and it seems most of them are either items going through or arriving in/from Germany. I have learned over time and personal experience in trading that I have a 100% success rate of shipping and receiving packages marked "Metal Game Token" and only about a 75% success rate of anything marked with the word "coin". Apparently, many countries routinely open packages marked with any wording that sounds like "coin" and then confiscate those items unless they've had their appropriate fees paid in advance. I guess any coin with dollar value has to be claimed and appropriate monies paid when being shipped by their laws. If the value can't be determined their travel ends right there. I can't claim first hand knowledge if this is true and I can't guarantee your success rate, but it certainly can't hurt to mark your packages differently.

 

I thought I recalled a post by someone in the postal service there along those lines about 2 years ago. Anybody recall which thread that was?

Edited March 20, 2012 by fox-and-the-hound

[+rsfish1]

I think I can fill in a little bit of the information. And this may not be true for all countries. But...

 

If customs determines that a package is declared lower than actual value they will look for an invoice inside the package and calculate the value from there. If there is no invoice then they can assign a value. How that value is assigned I am not for sure. The value of the package also includes the postage paid for delivery in many countries.

 

There are a couple of different codes that can be used sending like 7118900055 non-monetary coins. I always mark my forms as Game Tokens, merchandise and a price. Now I admit I know what values make it through most customs. So for Europe the value of the contents is always $15. That gives plenty of room for higher shipping charges to clear the $28 point where taxes and duties start getting added on.

 

I also believe from my experience that it is better to mark something as Merchandise instead of a gift with a dollar amount. Just from reading forums and word of mouth, customs looks at those forms as being more legit and are more wary of a Paypal/eBay shipping label with a package marked as a gift.

 

One last little thing. I hear a lot of people talk about packages being lost to Germany. They may be my highest lost package country. Maybe 3-5 last year. Excluding the US, I do not send 25% of my packages to any other country other then Germany. So it only makes sense that I have more packages disappear going to there.

[+power69]

With shipping companies tracking packages on a regular basis now it shouldn't be hard for them to figure out it went missing between point D and E. When a package arrives at a sorting facility it gets checked in then checked out. The Drives too check off that they received the package then it get checked off when delivered. So if a machine does destroy the package then it should still be at the facility and the shipping company should be held responsible for retrieving the item if its still in good condition or paying for the item. There is a reasonable expectation that when you send a package that it will reach its destination. Once its in the care of the shipping company it become there problem not the person who shipped it.

 

More and more private companies are taking over shipping. In these cases the consumer should be standing up for there rights. Maybe a class action lawsuits needs to be formed to push these companies into take responsibility for the packages as they should. I don't think they should be responsible for everything. But they should be responsible up to a certain $$ amount. This way if a high dollar item gets lost and the shipper didn't want to pay for the insurance then the shipping company is only liable for up to the set $$ amount.

sellers should use small boxes instead of those cheap vinyl envelopes.

[+JackHoe]

The Dutch organization of jewelers has advised their members not to use Post.nl any more, because to much packages get lost. So it is good to find out which shipping company is going to handle post in the Netherlands when it arrives here. Maybe DHL ore UPS are more safe? I thought this is good to know for us shipping coins in and out the Lowlands.

[ATMouse]

Huh. This "as a seller I have to refund money" thing.

 

I've always just been told "I shipped it," and tough toenails you didn't get it. I've had two geocoins disappear enroute to my mailbox. Never did get them and never got a refund. The sellers showed me they shipped and shrugged it off.

 

Clearly I've been doing this wrong. I need to demand a refund!!

[RedShoesGirl]

Huh. This "as a seller I have to refund money" thing.

 

I've always just been told "I shipped it," and tough toenails you didn't get it. I've had two geocoins disappear enroute to my mailbox. Never did get them and never got a refund. The sellers showed me they shipped and shrugged it off.

 

Clearly I've been doing this wrong. I need to demand a refund!!

 

back when i was first buying off ebay a package did not make it to my hands. i made a stink, but it didn't do any good for me to demand a refund. they just ignored me. now i specifically ask for insurance even if i have to pay a little more for shipping.

[+JackHoe]

I buy regularly at eBay and had several coins lost, but until now I always got my money back because of eBay buyer protection (or sometimes got a replacement coin).

[+JackHoe]

To start with answering my own question; I have, because I made a mistake trusting somebody.

 

I don't like name calling, so that is not my intention. I just want to share my experience with fellow collectors to warn them not to trust to easy as I did.

 

A while ago there was a post of somebody looking for a coin. I had that one, so I posted I had that coin. The person who was looking for the coin didn't react at that time, but somebody else did. So I sold the coin to the second person. All went well. This second person posted he was looking for some other coins. I had one of that, so again I offered the one I had and was willing to part from.

Then I made a mistake. I send the coin before I got paid. I wasn't worried, because I had a good transaction before and never had problems with contacts from this forum. The coin arrived, but the money never did. Of course I mailed. A lot. To the point where the buyer said; I have the coin, I contacted paypal, he gave me a transaction number of which paypal tells me it doesn't exist and the man he said that paypal told him that it happens that people try to get paid twice. THis made me angry, being accused like that. He said it ends there. I mailed again to tell him to think twice. This is not reasonable. I had and still have no proof whatsoever he paid. Just to make a point that it is not about the money for me, I send him two coins with explanation why. Still that man doesn't understand my point of view. And still I didn't receive the money or any proof he did pay. After asking advice to paypal they told me to ask the man to contact paypal with the matter. THey would reply to that mail and the man could send that mail to me as proof of his payment. He said he would do so, but it went silent. I suppose there is nothing to be proven, because their was no payment.

 

Yes I know, this was my mistake. So I will take responsibility for that. People who know me, know I don't care about the money so much. For me it's about the principle. I take care of my part of the deal, the other party takes care of his part. So it's not a big problem losing a few dollar, but what is a problem is losing trust in people and even losing interest in helping people out with collecting. And that for a few dollar? I have made my choices.

 

I know this will be read by that man and want to thank him for this lesson.

 

Just don't contact me anymore......

For me the matter is closed now.

[+jpbarr]

I am sorry to hear about your misfortune Jack. I have enjoyed the trades with you and have been on the receiving end of your generosity, the coin you sent for my birthday was an amazing surprise. Please don't let the actions of 1 bad apple spoil the whole experience for you. There are many others out there that deserve to be classed as your friend

[+JackHoe]

I am sorry to hear about your misfortune Jack. I have enjoyed the trades with you and have been on the receiving end of your generosity, the coin you sent for my birthday was an amazing surprise. Please don't let the actions of 1 bad apple spoil the whole experience for you. There are many others out there that deserve to be classed as your friend

 

Thank you for your support. I know it's just one person. But my mental situation just can't have this at the moment. I have to make choices to protect my well being. There's no change in the people I see as friends.