If the coordinates are off?

[+ljvet]

Hello -

 

What is the right thing to do - when the previous logs state the container is in the wrong place. You agree that it is placed .... say 20 ft west ... and you know where the obvious spot was/should be.

 

Do you replace it where you found it? Or put it back where you think it belongs?

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks!

Linda

[+laker91]

Maybe ask a couple of geocaching friends to verify your findings first. I would contact the CO and let them know what coordinates you found it at. If you are using a phone vs a GPSr, then it may be that your phone is off. The difference between my phone and GPSr can be up to 35 feet sometimes depending upon tree/building interference.

[+Max and 99]

Oh my goodness, put the cache back exactly where you found it!

[+Harry Dolphin]

Twenty feet off is an acceptable variation. Depends on the CO's GPS, and yours. If the hiding spot is obvious, then that is where it should be. (Some geocachers do not replace it where the found it.) If the hint says 'under the large rock' and you find it on the picnic table, something is wrong. But if you find it under the large rock, and your GPS shows twenty feet off, then rehide it as you found it.

[knowschad]

Oh my goodness, put the cache back exactly where you found it!

 

Absolutely. And then email the cache owner with the information of where you found it, just in case it had "migrated" from where they hid it (it happens). And either provide coordinates or BOTH distance and direction (approximate is fine).

 

Around here, at least, it is not at all considered rude to post your coordinates in the log if the cache was found well away from the posted coords (say, 40 feet or more). That is generally viewed as a friendly, helpful thing to do around here, but not all regions may view it in the same light.

[+Mitragorz]

If I find a cache in a hiding spot, I'll always put it back where I found it, regardless of where I *think* GZ should be and regardless of how far off my GPS says I am.

 

If I find a cache blatantly out in the open, say on top of a rock, I will put it where I *think* it should've been, and I'll email the CO with explicit details of what I found, where I found it, and where I hid it. I'll include pictures of it's "new" hiding place from various angles so the CO can find it if he needs to re-hide it.

 

I almost DNFd a cache once because, well, I couldn't find it. I'm not from the area (or even close... I live several states away) but I could tell it had flooded recently. Mushy ground, sticks and twigs piled up against bases of trees, etc. I got to GZ and saw plenty of hiding spots, but no cache in any of them. It had been over three months since it was last found, so I though that it may have floated away during the flood. After 30 min or so, I decided I'd start walking towards the stream. Maybe I'd get lucky and spot the cache. Well I did get lucky... I found the cache about 150' away from GZ, totally exposed:

 

 

 

 

I picked it up, signed the log, checked the contents (everything was perfectly fine!), and walked it back to GZ, where I placed it where I thought it should have been.

 

Lucky for the CO, he didn't have to make a maintenance trip out because I managed to place it exactly where it should've been

 

 

Use discretion when the cache is hidden different than where you think GZ is.

[+bptattooist]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion regarding replacement of caches which are not neccessarily at GZ acording to the coords on your GPS device. My opinion is, I never assume that GZ according to my GPS is going to be exactly where the CO's GPS said it is. I feel that once I reach GZ that I expect to have to look at least 20 feet in all directions from GZ to consider it a fair search. If I find the cache within these paramiters, and the cache appears to be somewhat hidden, then I would not even consider moving it anywhere for any reason. On the other hand, if it is obvious where a cache most likely was, and you find it slightly relocated from that area, I think it is reasonable to not leave it in the open and to replace to the obvious hiding spot. I would always make a note on the find log about any actions like this that I took. I have a great example of a cache I know was not in it's intended hidey hole when I found it. At the base of a tree with a small hidey hole at ground zero and the cammoed match stick container is lying 2-3 feet in a direct line with the hidey hole and all the dirt is sprayed out of the hole directly toward the displaced match stick container. Obviously an animal had scratched this container out of place while looking for termites, grubs etc. I went back with another cacher to this site a month later and the same cache container was the same 2-3 feet out of it's hidey hole and the same amount of freshly scuffed dirt was strewn about toward the container. I have come across several caches displaced similar to this during my short time being involved with geocaching. But as far as blatently relocating a cache because I believe my GPS accuracy to be better than someone elses etc. I feel this is very arrogant and not really the intent of the game at all. It seems often that some cachers feel they should be able to pin point the exact location of a cache within inches, this is not realistic. We do live on planet earth and things here are not 100% perfect all the time. Just have fun caching and don't take it so serious, it's just a game.

[+The A-Team]

If the hiding spot is obvious, then that is where it should be.

I agree whole-heartedly with this, bringing special attention to the word "obvious". For you to hide it in a different spot than you found it, it must be blatantly and unequivocally obvious where it should be. If it's clearly not hidden as intended (based on the description, hint, attributes, etc.), and there's only one (1) possible spot that would match, then you can hide it there. If there's any doubt at all, you should put it back where you found it. If you move it, or you leave it where it was but think it may be wrong, take a picture or record a detailed description of the hiding spot so you can ask the owner if it's correct.

[+terrkan78]

I once found an ammo can that I spotted from 100 ft away. Open. Under a web of tangled sticker bushes. I assumed a muggle had tossed it there so I hid it behind a nearby tree and e-mailed the CO when I got home.

 

Then I read the description for the first time. It was supposed to be in the sticker bushes - the write-up made that very clear. *sigh* I went back the next day and fixed my error. And I think twice about moving caches now.

[+niraD]

I wouldn't move someone else's cache just because my GZ was 20ft away, even if there was an "obvious" spot at my GZ. I've found caches 20ft or more from my GZ before. I've found caches near (but not in) "obvious" spots before; the nearby "obvious" spot was an intended red herring.

 

However, in rare cases, I have rehidden caches differently than found. In a couple cases, I found the caches out in the open, completely exposed. I rehid them based on my GZ and the hint, and let the CO know exactly where and how I had rehidden them. I've moved a couple when the description and hint made it clear that I had found the cache in the wrong place, and again, I let the CO know exactly where and how I had rehidden them.

[+power69]

Oh my goodness, put the cache back exactly where you found it!

yes please!

you aren't helping anyone by placing it where your gps says gz is. if your gps is an iphone that just makes things worse faster.

the CO goes out to get better coords and thinks its been muggled because several people have moved it trying to "fix" the "bad" coord issue.

[+OZ2CPU]

I dont like as a CO, when visitors move things arround, just a little bit at a time,

adds up lot after a few visits, then even I cant find my own caches..

if you are not happy with its location, contact the CO,

add pictures.

 

Before it go that bad always write a good log, explain exactly what you feel,

otherwise CO's will newer know and be able to fix it in good time.

and rememebr a DNF log is actually much more important, compared to a "Found it easy"

that is a useless log for a CO, no information of what you found or the cache status.

just a short : cache is nice and dry, still plenty of space in the log too,

nice swag for kids, thanks for a cool location too, enjoyed the nice hike too,

this is how you log a cache FIND.

[+Walts Hunting]

Once again we have the "my GPS is perfect so the cache has to be where it says it is." There is a 50/50 chance that yours is off not the placer and there is always an error radius involved. About the only time I get right to it at GZ is in the desert or at the beach with a full array of satellites.

 

Depending on the terrain anywhere from 20 to 50 feet can be acceptable.

 

To prove this to students on the first find for the field trip I tell them to all keep an eye on their GPS and go the smallest distance they can. Then I have them lookup and it looks like a grenade went off. They are scatterred around the area each thinking (until then) they were right.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Walts Hunting

[+Totem Clan]

The only one I have ever moved more than just push it back a foot or so into the cache size imprint in the dirt and debris, was this one.

We almost logged a DNF on this one. We came into the park and followed the GPS to GZ, but no luck. We looked in every conceivable hiding stop in the area for over a hundred feet. Finally after checking the cords and thoroughly searching one last time, we decided that it had been muggled and began to head back out of the park. As we drove up the road out of the park lo and behold, there sat the cache in the open. The can was sitting on one of the platforms out in the open over 250 feet from the cords. I'm sure that is not where it was suppose to be. The cache was in good condition so we signed the log and did some trading. I took the can back to GZ and hid it in the most logical place I could find. The owner definitely needs to check this one. The cubs all took a toy and left a toy or two. We took the TB. TFTC.

[+ljvet]

Wow - a lot of passion here. Thank you for your thoughts.

 

I would never assume I was correct over the original spot - but I think the point missed in my original question was that about FIVE other logs online said they found it about 20 feet West of where the coordinates were. So it wasn't only ME who found it to be off - it was a bunch of others.

 

I left it. I suppose the previous logs saying it was 20 feet off, was enough of a hint for anyone looking for it.

 

I suppose maybe the original CO's device was different than the rest of us. I've been doing this for 11 days now - and I've found 29 caches...and using the Geocash App has been quite accurate.

 

Thanks again!

L

[knowschad]

Wow - a lot of passion here. Thank you for your thoughts.

 

I would never assume I was correct over the original spot - but I think the point missed in my original question was that about FIVE other logs online said they found it about 20 feet West of where the coordinates were. So it wasn't only ME who found it to be off - it was a bunch of others.

 

I left it. I suppose the previous logs saying it was 20 feet off, was enough of a hint for anyone looking for it.

 

I suppose maybe the original CO's device was different than the rest of us. I've been doing this for 11 days now - and I've found 29 caches...and using the Geocash App has been quite accurate.

 

Thanks again!

L

 

I think that several of us responded to your point about other logs agreeing that it was off. My response included:

 

then email the cache owner with the information of where you found it, just in case it had "migrated" from where they hid it (it happens). And either provide coordinates or BOTH distance and direction (approximate is fine).

 

In the case of an absentee cache owner or a cache owner that steadfastly refuses to fix coordinates, you can ask the reviewer to take a look. They are also able to update coordinates, and will if it seems right in their judgement.

 

There are also a few cache owners that are somehow under the illusion that deliberately providing "soft" coordinates is a legitimate method of making a more difficult find. They are mistaken. The guidelines clearly state that they are to provide the most accurate coordinates possible. If you run into a situation like that and find that you can't, or don't want to, deal with it on a person-to-person basis, then once again, make your reviewer aware of the facts.

[+StarBrand]

Our grade of handheld GPS units averages an error of about 15 to 25 feet under most conditions. ALL of them. Just not worth mentioning an error of less than 40 feet IMHO.

 

Put it back where you found it. If you feel that is off the mark for some reason - make a note of it in your logs. Let the owner deal with it. What seems obvious to you might well be something to be avoided by the cache owner.

[+ras_oscar]

If I find the cache more than 20 feet from the posted coordinates I will post the actual delta as a part of my log. It doesn't mean my coordinates are correct. It doesn't mean the CO coordinates are correct. It means on the day I arrived at GC the difference between the posted coordinates and the signal received by my GPS is X feet. The only time I would relocate a cache is if it was exposed in the open and I could rehide it without changing the coordinates on the cache page, IE if it fell on th4e ground from a hole in a tree. Some people post "soft" coordinates to make the hunt more challenging. IMHO this is an incorrect technique, but if it is mentioned on the cache page ( a very rare occurence) i will omit the delta number from my log.

[+briansnat]

20 feet off is not off. There are very few circumstances where it is acceptable to move a cache to someplace other than where you found it. The only one that I can think of right off the top of my head is if the cache is laying out

out in the open and it's obvious from the logs and difficulty level that being in the open is not where it is supposed to be.

[+niraD]

20 feet off is not off. There are very few circumstances where it is acceptable to move a cache to someplace other than where you found it. The only one that I can think of right off the top of my head is if the cache is laying out out in the open and it's obvious from the logs and difficulty level that being in the open is not where it is supposed to be.

Here's another variation of "obviously not where it is supposed to be": a beach safe with green camouflage tape and a heavy wire hook, found under a rock at the base of a small, bushy tree, with a name like "I'm hooked on geocaching" and a hint like "eyelevel".

 

But yeah, circumstances like this are rare. Unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, assume the cache is in the correct hiding spot, and that the coordinates are off.

[+JL_HSTRE]

If I find a cache at the wrong coords, I put it back where I found it then I note in my log that I didn't find it at the poosted coords. Depending on the area, distance from GZ coords, and existence of other logs saying the coords are off (i.e. likelihood it is just my GPS) I will either post a general note (ex: "Found it a little west of where my GPS thought GZ was") or post the coords I found it at.

[+bptattooist]

Looks like the majority of cachers feel the same. leave it where you found it. Contact CO if you feel there is a significant discrepancy. This works for me. I've only been at this for about a year now but have placed 40 caches and it does annoy me a bit when players log that they found a cache and put it where it was supposed to be. Only the person who placed it could possibly know where it is supposed to be. At long last I'm glad to hear the majority iof cachers agree that 20 or better is concidered a reasonable variance from supposed coordinates. Thank you all for you inputs...Happy caching

[+lamoracke]

here is a cache that I gave alternate coordinates on, it would seem many finders appreciated it, in this case. Also, a few used PAFs that did not mention it, and I know they used them too even if they did not mention it in their logs.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=382e1e58-82cf-44c7-ba1b-e5da134eb968

 

So, sometimes it helps, as long as you are not rude about it.

[+DragonsWest]

Out caching, doing the Open Space Challenge last year and was looking for one Small cache. No luck. Could have been evil, but difficulty didn't indicate it was. Gave up and moved down the trail ... where I found it about 400 feet away, on the open ground. Clearly it had been muggled. I returned it to GZ and hid as best as description and hint provided - then sent an email to the CO.

 

Generally, caches within 30/40 feet I'll say nothing as I, a seasoned veteran of Geocaching & Cussing, figure it's part of the game -- when you have several hides you understand a cache isn't going to be directly under the GPSr, that's why a little helpful info in the description or hint is a good idea, e.g. "Tree cover is a problem, so your coords will not be exact..."

 

One hide I spend hours looking for, which is now archived (who knows if the ammo box is still out there, though?!?) was reported to be 175 feet from coords (in the middle of a riverbed, I don't THINK so) -- back in the bad old days before I had paperless geocaching.