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Should I ignore him or lead him by the hand?


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I have had a small problem with one cacher at this one cache of mine.

 

Three times in almost as many weekends one particular cacher has come to visit the cache. He has claimed that the cache was missing on all three visits.

 

The first time he left a polite log stating that he had been to the cache and it was missing so he left a throw-down film canister and logged a find. I went a checked on it and the cache was hidden right where it should be. His replacement was setting in the open a rock about 50' feet away.

I deleted his find and emailed him telling him the cache was still in place.

 

The next time he visited he did the same thing. This time his log said something to the effect that it had to be muggled because he looked everywhere. Now there are a few hikers that go up beyond the trail so as to summit out here, and the cache is not for from one of the routes. So I went again and checked. Sure enough he had placed a film can within a few feet of the hide.

I delete his find again and told him that he was very close this time but he might want to leave no stone unturned next time.

 

Yesterday he comes back to hunt again. If nothing else, I have to admit he's determined to get the find. So he goes up and looks. Again he doesn't find the cache. Again he leaves a film can. This time his log states that, "The CO keeps saying the cache is still here but it can't be. I don't think the coords right or something I have picked every rock for 100 feet around and there is no cache. So I'm leaving a replacement where a real cache should be hidden. If you don't like his cache you can just log mine."

When I read this I was wondering what could have happened. I know the coords were good. It has been found already. In fact the FTFers just happens to be friends of ours and they would have called before even leaving the area if they had a problem with it. If fact they would have more than likely just stopped by the house and said something?

I go up and check on it and it's there and so is his film can. This time it's on the bench at the top of the trail almost 150' from the cache. There were a few rocks near the bench that had in fact been turned over. Near the cache most of the rocks are much too big to move so things were better there.

I cleaned up his mess and came back down.

 

I have deleted his find and I have emailed him again explaining that the cache is indeed there.

 

Here's what I said.

 

I'm sorry my cache, Going Up, has given you so many problems. The cache is indeed there. The coords have been checked by 2Moore when they claimed the FTF. I checked the coords again today with two different GPS both took me to within 10' of the cache. When I said leave no stone unturned I didn't mean it quite so literally.

 

Happy Caching,

Totem Clan

 

Should I give him my number and offer to help him or should I just clean up his mess again if he comes back?

 

What would you do?

Edited by Totem Clan
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What would you do?

 

I would have probably offered to tell him exactly where the cache is located after the second throw down, especially considering they tackled the 4 star terrain more than once. I can't really tell from the photo on the cache page but it appears that there might be quite a few potential spots where the cache could be hidden and perhaps the difficulty rating is a tad too low. With throwdowns at within 10', 50', and 150' away from GZ one has to wonder about the accuracy of the device they're using.

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What would you do?

 

I would have probably offered to tell him exactly where the cache is located after the second throw down, especially considering they tackled the 4 star terrain more than once. I can't really tell from the photo on the cache page but it appears that there might be quite a few potential spots where the cache could be hidden and perhaps the difficulty rating is a tad too low. With throwdowns at within 10', 50', and 150' away from GZ one has to wonder about the accuracy of the device they're using.

That photo was taken from the bench just over 100+ feet from the cache. The area around GZ is a rock slope with much fewer hiding places, but you have to get down low to even see the cache. You have to lay down in fact.

 

I almost sent him an invite to go with me to the cache.

Edited by Totem Clan
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i have been here my self.

id offer to meet him out there and follow him to the cache.

after he gave it a good look id help him out if needed.

 

but if he is just going to throw another one down and log it

and your going to go back out and check on it anyways. then

you may be able to save yourself some time in the long run.

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Should I give him my number and offer to help him or should I just clean up his mess again if he comes back?

 

What would you do?

At this point, it might be best to "lead him by the hand". From your description of his most recent visit, he seems to be making a real mess of the area. It might be time to give him a gimmie hint to prevent him from making an even bigger mess.

 

BTW, how experienced is he? Is he a new cacher? From satellite images, it looks pretty open around GZ, so reception should be excellent. Maybe they're using a really old smartphone or something that's leading them astray.

 

And from their most recent log:

So I'm leaving a replacement where a real cache should be hidden.

A real cache is a film canister on a bench? Sounds like they're more of an urban cacher that seldom ventures out into the wilderness.

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also if hes a new cacher it may give him some help

as far as its not right to toss down a cache and walk off

saying you found it.

it could help him in the long run.

but you never know because i never dreamed of tossing a container

down and logging it unless the owner asked me to replace it while i was there

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I'd probably let him know that his second throw-down film canister was within a few feet of the actual cache, to help him focus his search. I might also mention that if the cache were in plain sight, then it would be rated D1 instead of D2, and that he shouldn't expect it to be in plain sight.

 

I'd also point out that this cache is not part of a numbers run trail, and that while leaving throw-down film canisters is the norm for many numbers run trails, it is definitely not the norm elsewhere.

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I'd probably let him know that his second throw-down film canister was within a few feet of the actual cache, to help him focus his search. I might also mention that if the cache were in plain sight, then it would be rated D1 instead of D2, and that he shouldn't expect it to be in plain sight.

 

I'd also point out that this cache is not part of a numbers run trail, and that while leaving throw-down film canisters is the norm for many numbers run trails, it is definitely not the norm elsewhere.

I'm making a history trail. Maybe I should just let him keep giving me caches. :laughing:

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You have been extremely patient up to this point. It seems like you are leaning toward making the trek with him. I think that's a good idea. It would give you the opportunity to tell him to...

 

"STOP THROWING DOWN FILM CANISTERS EVERY TIME YOU HAVE TROUBLE FINDING A CACHE!!!!"

 

In the nicest possibly way, of course.

Edited by Trinity's Crew
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If they are relatively new, I'd offer to join them on their next hunt. On the way up, you can provide a little mentoring on throw downs and DNFs and caching in general. You may make a friend, and help them become better cachers.

 

Especially since from the photo it looks like a very cool spot - one I wouldn't mind visiting a few times.

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He's been caching for about a year now. He lives in a bigger town not too far away and his done a lot of urban caching in the Oklahoma City area. Lately he seems to have started caching out here in the 'boonies' more. He has just over 250 finds and a couple of hides.

 

I emailed him and sent my number. I told him next time he's out this way to call and I'll help him out with mine and maybe we can grab a few more in the area. The cacher in me wanted to help him out. That's one reason I gave him a hint after the second time and told him he was close, but after the last time the hiker/outdoorsman in me want to kick his butt for his attitude and his 'destruction.' :laughing:

Edited by Totem Clan
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He's been caching for about a year now. He has lives in a bigger town not too far away and his done a lot of urban caching in the Oklahoma City area. Lately he seems to have started caching out here in the 'boonies' more. He has just over 250 finds and a couple of hides.

 

I emailed him and sent my number. I told him next time he's out this way to call and I'll help him out with mine and maybe we can grab a few more in the area. The cacher in me wanted to help him out. That's one reason I gave him a hint after the second time and told him he was close, but after the last time the hiker/outdoorsman in me want to keep his butt for his attitude and his 'destruction.' :laughing:

I think I would have sent him detailed instructions and photos of the spot and the container, maybe even a youtube video of somebody finding it, and offered to take him there by now.

 

You sound most patient.

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This is a perfect example of a cacher that thinks he is entitled to a find just because he made the climb. The whole object of this game is to FIND the cache at the given coords. I don't care how many times the dude goes up there, he's entitled to squat. I take this action because i would be pissed if someone made me go to my hide 3 times to find a throwdown and claim a find on my cache. :blink: WTF :blink: You don't have to find'em all. Heck you might as well log his name on the cache for him and call it a day. Some people have some nerve I tell ya.

 

So no I wouldn't lead him by the hand he's been playing awhile. I would also tell him to stop littering your gz with throwdowns. :laughing:

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This is a perfect example of a cacher that thinks he is entitled to a find just because he made the climb. The whole object of this game is to FIND the cache at the given coords. I don't care how many times the dude goes up there, he's entitled to squat. I take this action because i would be pissed if someone made me go to my hide 3 times to find a throwdown and claim a find on my cache. :blink: WTF :blink: You don't have to find'em all. Heck you might as well log his name on the cache for him and call it a day. Some people have some nerve I tell ya.

 

So no I wouldn't lead him by the hand he's been playing awhile. I would also tell him to stop littering your gz with throwdowns. :laughing:

That's about how I felt coming down from the hide this morning. I don't mind the climb at all. In fact it's such a nice day here today I almost suggested to my daughter that we go hide a few stages of the 8 mile peak hopping multi we are working on, but then I remembered the wife took the good GPS with her on business trip this afternoon. <_< I was just irked me that he felt like the cache should have been right there for him. The hike back home calmed me down and so I posted this.

 

[bTW it was my daughter that found the hide site for Going Up. She's a good cacher in her own right. She loves the long hikes to nice size caches and hates urban micro with a passion.] :anibad:

Edited by Totem Clan
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snip%<

 

I would also tell him to stop littering your gz with throwdowns. :laughing:

 

I'd be tempted to make that USE much better quality throwdowns, to make it worth your time and effort to remove them.

 

Another benefit to accompanying them would be to watch the antics. I hang out regularly near one I maintain for a 'remote' CO.

What some people go about doing that one can keep you in stitches... or make you cry. So being there is worth the trip most times.

 

Doug 7rxc

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This is a perfect example of a cacher that thinks he is entitled to a find just because he made the climb. The whole object of this game is to FIND the cache at the given coords. I don't care how many times the dude goes up there, he's entitled to squat. I take this action because i would be pissed if someone made me go to my hide 3 times to find a throwdown and claim a find on my cache. :blink: WTF :blink: You don't have to find'em all. Heck you might as well log his name on the cache for him and call it a day. Some people have some nerve I tell ya.

 

So no I wouldn't lead him by the hand he's been playing awhile. I would also tell him to stop littering your gz with throwdowns. :laughing:

That's about how I felt coming down from the hide this morning. I don't mind the climb at all. In fact it's such a nice day here today I almost suggested to my daughter that we go hide a few stages of the 8 mile peak hopping multi we are working on, but then I remembered the wife took the good GPS with her on business trip this afternoon. <_< I was just irked me that he felt like the cache should have been right there for him. The hike back home calmed me down and so I posted this.

 

[bTW it was my daughter that found the hide site for Going Up. She's a good cacher in her own right. She loves the long hikes to nice size caches and hates urban micro with a passion.] :anibad:

We have a few cachers that are like this. Maybe that's why it bugs me so much. I DNF caches ALL the time and not once have I put down a throwdown. I have replaced missing caches with the COs permission but that's it. Maybe I need to go for a hike too. :laughing:

 

My daughter doesn't like micros either. :laughing: She has become quite the boulder hopper,and hiker for 8. Her motto is when in doubt... bushwack. She always laughs when we find the trail after we find the cache :laughing: .

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I wouldn't do anything other than what you have been doing. Let him make the trek a few more times. See how many times he'll continue going back before he either gives up or he actually finds it. If he finds it then good for him, he might learn something from the experience. I'd view it as kind of a sport. Sort of like watching a cat chase a laser pointer.

I like Dragonswest's suggestion. Good one.

Edited by Wadcutter
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My hat is off to Totem Clan for taking the high road and being more than patient with this cacher. It is great to see someone who wants to help a fellow cacher rather than just coming to the forums to rant about how this guy is being an idiot.

 

I think going with him to assist might be fun -- providing this whole thing hasn't been a complex hoax designed to lure you out into the woods for nefarious purposes... :unsure:

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My hat is off to Totem Clan for taking the high road and being more than patient with this cacher. It is great to see someone who wants to help a fellow cacher rather than just coming to the forums to rant about how this guy is being an idiot.

 

I think going with him to assist might be fun -- providing this whole thing hasn't been a complex hoax designed to lure you out into the woods for nefarious purposes... :unsure:

If he want's the lure a ex-specail force sniper into the woods in said sniper's own backyard the boy's got more problems than not finding caches. :laughing:

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There was a pair of cachers that had A LOT of trouble finding one of my caches. It was a tricky hide, and giving any kind of guidance or hint on the cache page would have given the location and type of hide away instantly. One DNFer was a little botherd bc there was no hint. Well he went back and found it, and basically said "you were right... any kind of hint would've given this away."

 

Anyway, these two cachers DNF'd twice already. After their first DNF, we started exchanging emails and I led them a little bit. Didn't tell them what the cache was or where, but how to search for it. And these were very experienced cachers. They went back a second time and logged a second DNF. I gave them a bit more of a hint.

 

One morning, I was sitting on my couch and my phone buzzed. It was an email from them saying that they were at GZ and very frustrated. They thought they were on the right track, but just can't seem to grasp it. I sent back an email saying that I'd meet them there and help them out. I live only 10 min away.

 

I got to GZ and they showed me their ideas. Well, their ideas were spot on this time, but the cache was gone! Muggled, and deliberately, because you'd have needed tools to dismantle the entire setup. I let them log a find on it this time because if it were where it was supposed to be, it'd have been in their hands (let's not turn this into one of THOSE discussions :laughing: ).

 

I didn't mind helping them because I want my caches to be found. I'm not the kind of owner who sits back and laughs as the DNFs pile up.

 

Moral of the story: Offer to help him out. It'll leave you with a better feeling than just letting him tire out.

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My hat is off to Totem Clan for taking the high road and being more than patient with this cacher. It is great to see someone who wants to help a fellow cacher rather than just coming to the forums to rant about how this guy is being an idiot.

 

I think going with him to assist might be fun -- providing this whole thing hasn't been a complex hoax designed to lure you out into the woods for nefarious purposes... :unsure:

If he want's the lure a ex-specail force sniper into the woods in said sniper's own backyard the boy's got more problems than not finding caches. :laughing:

 

I dunno... did you ever miss? Could be payback time... :P

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Ah. Hmmm... My first impulse would be smacking that cacher upside the head with a blunt object. But that is not permitted. (Oh, well.)

So, I admire your patience and willingness to help that cacher understand the basic concepts of geocaching. (Sorry. If you did not find the cache and threw down a throw down, you did NOT find the cache!) I find your willingness to help that cacher admirable. If possible, accompany that cacher (all the time whispering the basic concepts in his/her ears. Loudly, if necessary.) That would be a great way to help a newbie! Go for it. (And continue to delete the wrongful 'found it' logs.)

Contemplating someone's whose second 'found it' log is on one of mine: Log Date: 3/4/2012

Didn't find it and I was sure I knew where it was. :(

Ah. She deleted her 'found it'log! (per my suggestion) Never hurts to try to help newbies uderstand the basic concepts. (Then again, a smack upside the head is sometimes more efficient.)

Go for it!

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I'd probably let him know that his second throw-down film canister was within a few feet of the actual cache, to help him focus his search. I might also mention that if the cache were in plain sight, then it would be rated D1 instead of D2, and that he shouldn't expect it to be in plain sight.

 

I'd also point out that this cache is not part of a numbers run trail, and that while leaving throw-down film canisters is the norm for many numbers run trails, it is definitely not the norm elsewhere.

I'm making a history trail. Maybe I should just let him keep giving me caches. :laughing:

 

Hmmmmm, with film cans becoming harder to come by ... this may be a good way to replenish your stock. Snicker, snicker

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One way or another, I would certainly make it perfectly clear that he is not to leave film cannisters in place just because he can't find your caches. Once may have been excusable, but three times? You were very generous with him, from what you say.

 

^^^This

 

Apparently it's time to work out a time when you and this throw-down happy cacher can visit the site together and play the HOT-cold game.

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Incredible patience on show here from Totem Clan - well done, sirs! Although you might eventually get the guy to find your cache it would be better long term to gently train him that there's no such thing as a "throw down" in geocaching. Despite what a few in one country seem to think.

 

Every single cache is the same; if you don't find the cache then it's a DNF. Otherwise the whole game would be pointless. Obviously you can always go to roughly the right location and "find" a container that you brought with you but it's not geocaching.

 

If he can't understand this, then there's no hope for him and you could at least do him a favour by suggesting that he takes the film can away with him once he's thrown it down and logged his "find". That way, others won't get confused and there won't be a litter problem.

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One way or another, I would certainly make it perfectly clear that he is not to leave film cannisters in place just because he can't find your caches. Once may have been excusable, but three times? You were very generous with him, from what you say.

You are correct sir...the desired throw down is an Ammo Can!!!

 

lol...if you can get the cacher to do that...think of all the ammo cans you could get as long as he keeps placing them for you to pick up!!!

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There was a pair of cachers that had A LOT of trouble finding one of my caches. It was a tricky hide, and giving any kind of guidance or hint on the cache page would have given the location and type of hide away instantly. One DNFer was a little botherd bc there was no hint. Well he went back and found it, and basically said "you were right... any kind of hint would've given this away."

 

Anyway, these two cachers DNF'd twice already. After their first DNF, we started exchanging emails and I led them a little bit. Didn't tell them what the cache was or where, but how to search for it. And these were very experienced cachers. They went back a second time and logged a second DNF. I gave them a bit more of a hint.

 

One morning, I was sitting on my couch and my phone buzzed. It was an email from them saying that they were at GZ and very frustrated. They thought they were on the right track, but just can't seem to grasp it. I sent back an email saying that I'd meet them there and help them out. I live only 10 min away.

 

I got to GZ and they showed me their ideas. Well, their ideas were spot on this time, but the cache was gone! Muggled, and deliberately, because you'd have needed tools to dismantle the entire setup. I let them log a find on it this time because if it were where it was supposed to be, it'd have been in their hands (let's not turn this into one of THOSE discussions :laughing: ).

 

I didn't mind helping them because I want my caches to be found. I'm not the kind of owner who sits back and laughs as the DNFs pile up.

 

Moral of the story: Offer to help him out. It'll leave you with a better feeling than just letting him tire out.

I agree with what you're saying here. What bugged me was that he didn't log a DNF at all. Also after the second Found/Did not Find I told him he was close and sent a hint.

 

I just don't understand why some of the newer cachers act this way. (and for that matter a few a the older ones)

 

Maybe self-entitlement?

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Well I got an email back.

 

It seems he's, "not too worried about finding it anyway." :blink: Also, "If [he] ever decided to cache in my neck or the woods again, which isn't likely, he'll think about calling."

:unsure:

 

I think I might have spoiled his little game by refusing to throw a fit. :rolleyes::laughing:

 

Whatever! The ball's in his court now.

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I own a cache that is on the road to a power trail and got a find log stating that a film canister is not a regulare size cache! Checked out my cache and someone had thrown down a "replacement cache" in a different location. I removed it and posted the following note:

 

"Stopped by today to check out my cache and found that someone had thrown down a film canister, GRRRRR. This cache isn't part of the (name removed) series and does not support throw down caches.

 

The real cache was where it was susposed to be and the coordinates checked out.

 

Of the many who have logged finds on line, there was only one name in the correct log and only 4 logs in the throw down since the real cache was replaced on 12/2/11. First thought was to delete all those except the 5 in the logs, but as there was a problem with the original container and confusion with the throw down I will give everyone a late Xmas present and leave all finds.

 

However be warned, I am of the group who believe that you must sign the cache log in order to log the find and Xmas is over. Any online logs not supported by a in cache log will be deleted from now on.

 

Also if someone uses a throw down cache instead of finding the real cache their online logs will also be deleted from now on."

 

I now go out once a month swap out logs and delete any finds not in the log. Two so far. :o If anyone asks for help after posting a DNF they get it on any of my caches.

Edited by captnemo
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I just got another email from him. He wants to know if he can have his caches back. :laughing: :laughing:

Offer again to meet him at the cache. He can then have his film cannisters (caches) back and you will have met face to face. When you have met someone face to face they will likely be much less inclined to leave throwdowns.

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