You Tool!

[+Ecylram]

In your opinion, does the use of a tool to sign the log make a cache a 5-star difficulty even if it was easy to sign the log?

 

Real World Examples...

 

Cache 'A', now archived, had a 5/1 rating. It garnered a large number of DNF's and most of the finds involved the utlization of the 'Phone-a-Friend' network. In that instance I felt the 5-star rating was valid.

 

Cache 'B' had a 5/x rating due to a 'special tool' being required to sign the log. The tool was provided and instructions for its use were also included. Most of those who signed the log did not use or need the special tool to complete the task. I would have rated this cache a 1.5/1.5 and several others commented the same in private conversations.

 

When I first started I had heard that a special tool requirement makes the cache a five-star difficulty. However, the guidelines only mention special tools ratings in this context:

 

Extremely challenging terrain Requires specialized equipment (boat, 4WD, rock climbing, SCUBA, etc.) or is otherwise extremely difficult.

Do you consider the use of a tool warrants a 5-star difficulty or just in cases where the challenge is 'Extreme'?

 

(Please do not reference any identifiable caches in this discussion.)

[+The A-Team]

The 5-star difficulty caches in my area are as follows:

1. 5/3.5 - Extreme math puzzle

2. 5/3 - A so-called "liar" traditional cache, which isn't actually this difficult

3. 5/2.5 - A fill-the-calendar challenge cache

4. 5/4 - A puzzle that requires visiting many locations, retrieving lots of information, and doing a bunch of math

5. 5/1.5 - An extremely difficult puzzle similar to Sudoku, but much harder. I had to write a program to solve it.

6. 5/3 - A puzzle that involves solving multiple sub-puzzles, but probably doesn't need to be rated this high.

7. 5/5 - A blackout-style challenge that requires finding all caches within 3 miles of a point (249 caches), and includes one boat-required cache and many other difficult caches.

8. 5/5 - Boat-required

 

Of these, I'd say 6 of the 8 are definitely appopriately rated as difficulty 5. Note that only the last one requires the use of any "tools" (a boat), and in this case it falls under the Groundspeak guideline. There are very few caches around here that require an additional tool, but one that came to mind is rated difficulty 3.5.

 

If a cache requires the use of an additional tool, the appropriate attribute () should be used to indicate it, not the difficulty rating. The difficulty rating is just that, a rating of how difficult it is to access the log. If using the correct tool makes it very easy to access, then the difficulty rating should reflect this.

[+CanadianRockies]

When I first started I had heard that a special tool requirement makes the cache a five-star difficulty. However, the guidelines only mention special tools ratings in this context:

 

Extremely challenging terrain Requires specialized equipment (boat, 4WD, rock climbing, SCUBA, etc.) or is otherwise extremely difficult.

Actually, that's the guideline for the terrain rating rather than the difficulty rating. Here's the 5-star difficulty guideline:

 

Extreme. A serious mental or physical challenge. May require specialized knowledge or skills to find or open the cache.

But regardless of whether it is difficulty or terrain, the use of ratings to flag special knowledge, skills, or equipment seems obsolete to me. There now are attributes available to indicate that special equipment or tools might be needed to reach or access a cache.

 

I use these attributes and assume geocachers come properly prepared. I then use the terrain and difficulty ratings to indicate how hard it is for prepared geocachers to reach and access the cache.

 

If lock picks were necessary to access a cache, for example, then I would rate the cache difficulty based on how hard it is to pick the lock on the cache (assuming one had picks in hand). The difficulty rating could be a 2. It also could be a 5.

Edited February 28, 2012 by CanadianRockies

[Clan Riffster]

I tend to take an ambiguous approach to this topic. Several of my caches require some sort of paddle craft to get to, but in a state where canoes and kayaks can be found for rent all over the place, I'm just not feeling the need for a 5 star terrain on them. Yet I bow to the folks at Groundspeak who seemingly feel otherwise.

[+CanadianRockies]

As far as real world examples of special tools needed to access a cache, I can recall one that required you to use a #4 Tri-Wing screwdriver, one that required you to pick a lock, and four that required you to use a magnet (including two of mine). None of them had a 5-star difficulty rating.

Edited February 28, 2012 by CanadianRockies

[+CanadianRockies]

I tend to take an ambiguous approach to this topic. Several of my caches require some sort of paddle craft to get to, but in a state where canoes and kayaks can be found for rent all over the place, I'm just not feeling the need for a 5 star terrain on them. Yet I bow to the folks at Groundspeak who seemingly feel otherwise.

But the folks at Groundspeak go out of their way to emphasis that their rating recommendations are "suggested definitions of ratings." Their advice: "Ultimately, you alone are the best judge for rating your cache."

[+sassydil]

Many caches need a "special tool" - starting with tweezers & screwdrivers and they really have little or no difficulty involved. Some CO like to be able to brag they are hiding difficult caches. Some are placed so people can up their D/T statistics.

[+Isonzo Karst]

Difficulty 5 - Extreme. A serious mental or physical challenge. May require specialized knowledge or skills to find or open the cache.

 

Terrain 5 -Extremely challenging terrain Requires specialized equipment (boat, 4WD, rock climbing, SCUBA, etc.) or is otherwise extremely difficult.

 

A screwdriver is not "specialized", neither is a ladder. Need for either isn't 5* terrain or difficulty, in my book. But I see caches rated 5 if the cache is apt to require anything that the cache owner doesn't usually carry.

 

Re 4WD and Boat being 5 terrain: it's a long established tradition that this = 5 terrain, but it's hard to really justify. White water rapids, class 4? yes, that's a 5 terrain. Flat water paddling or motor boating....no.

This should be handled by attribute now.

 

I see caches that say, "you need a 4WD for this", and rated terrain 5. What they mean is, if you want this to be a park and grab, you need 4WD. There are places in the western US where not having 4x creates an overnight hike in. Back east, it's just a longer walk, usually.

[+the4dirtydogs]

I feel that(at least around here) most of the 5 caches are WAY over rated. Maybe it's because some COs just want to say that they own a 5 cache. I know of a couple rappeling caches around here that you dont even need to rappel to get to. Just scramble across the rocks and you're there. Even some of the 4x4 caches you can just walk up the trail and find them. Thats my experience on the 5's so what do I know. Now puzzles...they all seem like 5s to me.

[+niraD]

Cache 'A', now archived, had a 5/1 rating. It garnered a large number of DNF's and most of the finds involved the utlization of the 'Phone-a-Friend' network. In that instance I felt the 5-star rating was valid.

That sounds like the challenge involved in finding/retrieving the cache is significant, and the D5 rating is warranted. But without any further details, it's hard to say.

 

Cache 'B' had a 5/x rating due to a 'special tool' being required to sign the log. The tool was provided and instructions for its use were also included. Most of those who signed the log did not use or need the special tool to complete the task. I would have rated this cache a 1.5/1.5 and several others commented the same in private conversations.

I've found caches where the owner provided a tool that was needed. The difficulty ratings seemed to be based on the challenge of finding the cache, finding the tool (if necessary), and retrieving the cache. Since cache seekers didn't need to be prepared by bringing the necessary tool, it doesn't seem reasonable to use the D5 rating because the tool is needed. Otherwise "bear bag" caches would be D5, because you need to use the tool provided by the owner (i.e., the rope) to lower the cache.

[+niraD]

I feel that(at least around here) most of the 5 caches are WAY over rated. Maybe it's because some COs just want to say that they own a 5 cache.

Yeah, that happens. And I think it's backwards. People occasionally ask what they need to do for their cache to qualify as a D5 or T5 cache. Instead, they should hide the cache they want to hide, and then figure out what the most accurate D–T rating is.

 

I know of a couple rappeling caches around here that you dont even need to rappel to get to. Just scramble across the rocks and you're there.

Well, technically, someone willing to take the risk could retrieve most T5 climbing caches without climbing gear. But I'll give the CO the benefit of the doubt. If the CO thinks seekers should have (and know how to use) climbing gear, then it's T5, even if someone else is comfortable with the risk of retrieving it without gear.

 

Even some of the 4x4 caches you can just walk up the trail and find them.

Yeah, unless the cache is in one of the few locations that are accessible only to 4x4 users (i.e., that prohibit hikers, cyclists, equestrians, etc.), the hike from the nearest/easiest trailhead should determine the terrain rating. In some places, that hike may justify a T5 rating. In others, it may be nowhere near that.

[+Totem Clan]

I think it should be a 5 if it requires some equipment/tool that the average cacher would not have on a normal caching trip and that they would have to provide for themselves, and there is no way to complete the cache without that equipment. Then it should be a 5.

 

I see a 5 as something apart from the normal scale. In reality a 4.5 terrian may be much harder to get to than a 5 terrian that requires a boat. So 5's should be seen as an exception to the norm, with 4.5 being the most difficult.

 

 

I personally would like to see an 'Equipment Needed' box on the cache page instead of using the 5.

[+DragonsWest]

I tend to take an ambiguous approach to this topic. Several of my caches require some sort of paddle craft to get to, but in a state where canoes and kayaks can be found for rent all over the place, I'm just not feeling the need for a 5 star terrain on them. Yet I bow to the folks at Groundspeak who seemingly feel otherwise.

 

I rather felt that way, placing a 5T cache a couple weeks back. It's in a 4WD park, NO hiking. Therefore, it's a fiver. I've not found many 4T or 4.5T caches, but those which are 3.5 are usually of the excruciating deathmarch sort of hike. But hop in your friend's 4WD, take a 5 minute ride and you've got 5T. Well, I don't want people to think I'm malcontent about it. I'm actually fine with it, because attempting to remedy anything like that would probably be worse than leaving it as is - i.e. Terrain, Tool, Difficulty - splitting all those out from over a million caches - ugh. I'll just accept it and move on.

[+slukster]

Scenario: Cache hidden approx. 20ft up a tree and cannot be accessed without special equipment. In this case, I have provided climbing sticks to access the cache. Putting the sticks together will take some time and skill and might be difficult (I think most people haven't ever put these together before). 5 star difficulty? Cache is high in a tree and special equipment is needed but I provide it. 5 star terrain? How would you rate this cache?

[+Totem Clan]

Scenario: Cache hidden approx. 20ft up a tree and cannot be accessed without special equipment. In this case, I have provided climbing sticks to access the cache. Putting the sticks together will take some time and skill and might be difficult (I think most people haven't ever put these together before). 5 star difficulty? Cache is high in a tree and special equipment is needed but I provide it. 5 star terrain? How would you rate this cache?

That's a neat idea. Sounds like a 5 to me.

 

Do you have the climbing sticks hide somewhere nearby or something? Do you have a sling and harness there as well? Just wondering.

[+niraD]

Scenario: Cache hidden approx. 20ft up a tree and cannot be accessed without special equipment. In this case, I have provided climbing sticks to access the cache. Putting the sticks together will take some time and skill and might be difficult (I think most people haven't ever put these together before). 5 star difficulty? Cache is high in a tree and special equipment is needed but I provide it. 5 star terrain? How would you rate this cache?

I'd base it on the difficulty of finding finding the cache, finding the climbing sticks, and correctly using the climbing sticks. Just because you've provided the necessary tools doesn't make it a trivial challenge to use the necessary tools. I've seen enough teams on The Amazing Race struggle with challenges where they had the equipment, but couldn't figure out how to use it properly.

 

But I don't think it's a D5 or a T5, if seekers don't need to come to the cache site with special equipment or skills.

[+slukster]

That's a neat idea. Sounds like a 5 to me.

 

Do you have the climbing sticks hide somewhere nearby or something? Do you have a sling and harness there as well? Just wondering.

The climbing sticks would be hidden right near the tree (I am trying to figure out what kind of box to build to try to keep them out of the elements). No sling or harness will be provided. While it probably will be a good idea to have them, all of my tree climbing caches, including one 34 ft up in a tree, I accessed without a rope/harness. Maybe I am just crazy but I am not planning on using a harness to place this cache.

[+briansnat]

To me a specialized tool is one that the average geocacher is not likely to have with him, and can't easily obtain AND requires some sort of specialized knowledge or skill to use.

 

Screwdrivers, flashlights, ladders, poles, jugs of water, etc. would not be specialized equipment. Climbing gear, kayaks, canoes, etc. would be.

[+StarBrand]

To me a specialized tool is one that the average geocacher is not likely to have with him, and can't easily obtain AND requires some sort of specialized knowledge or skill to use.

 

Screwdrivers, flashlights, ladders, poles, jugs of water, etc. would not be specialized equipment. Climbing gear, kayaks, canoes, etc. would be.

Thats always been my understanding as well.

[+briansnat]

Scenario: Cache hidden approx. 20ft up a tree and cannot be accessed without special equipment. In this case, I have provided climbing sticks to access the cache. Putting the sticks together will take some time and skill and might be difficult (I think most people haven't ever put these together before). 5 star difficulty? Cache is high in a tree and special equipment is needed but I provide it. 5 star terrain? How would you rate this cache?

 

It depends on how hard it would be to assemble the sticks. If there was some puzzle involved, then higher. But if it just involves tying or taping two sticks together, probably around 2.5 - 3 stars.