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Batteries


lancs-sue

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Rechargeable batteries in the AA format (probably what you're gps uses) come in 3 variants.

 

NiMH - what you mentioned, probably the leading type at the moment. This batteries main disadvantage is it has a high self-discharge rate compared to other types. In other words, if you charge your batteries, and let them sit for a while before use, you will find that they are partially run down. If you charge your batteries right before use (the day before) then you'll probably never see this issue. Typical size is 2600mAh, starting to see 3000mAh batteries recently.

 

Hybrids - This is essentially a NiMH with a little different chemistry, not as susceptible to the self-discharge issue that plagues NiMH, but at a cost of 10 to 20% capacity. Typical size is 2000 to 2200 mAh.

 

NiCad - Popular before NiMH, capacity is usually less than 1/2 of NiMH, usually only about 1/3 and very susceptible to memory issues. These are increasingly hard to find, none of the big box type stores carry them anymore. Typical size is 600 to 1200mAh.

 

mAh=milli-amp-hours, a rating of how long a battery will last. For example if you have a load of 200mA (probably a little less than a typical gps) a 2000mAh battery will last about 10 hours, if you have a load of 400mA (probably a little more than most gps's use) that same battery will last about 5 hours. So for a 200mA load, a 2600mAh battery will last about 13 hours.

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Very helpful answer, Potato Finder, thanks. I hadn't paid attention to the different battery types and realize now that it makes a difference since our strategy is to recharge them right away and then stow them back in our caching bag for future use.

 

Bean

Edited by succotash
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Even more important is the charger you get. Do not pick one up at walmart or Radio Shack. You can probably get some recommendations here. I stored mine when I got my Montana and can't remember which one it was. There are a little pricey but will do things to your batteries that will make them last forever. With the cheapies after a period of time the batteries have to be discarded.

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Hybrids - This is essentially a NiMH with a little different chemistry, not as susceptible to the self-discharge issue that plagues NiMH, but at a cost of 10 to 20% capacity. Typical size is 2000 to 2200 mAh.

 

 

Don't wast your time or money with anything other than these.

 

Usually they are sold 'pre-charged'.

As mentioned, get a 'good' charger and they will last much longer (more recharge cycles).

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Yes, the comments about a charger being an important decision are very true.

 

Chargers essentially fall into two categories.

 

Timer based - these are the worst kind or chargers out there, yet they are the most popular. The way they work is they charge the batteries at a rate of xxx mAh for x hours. The big problem with these is if the batteries are not completely discharged, they end up overcharging the battery. They also typically make assumptions about the size of the battery, and will overcharge a battery that is slightly smaller than what it was designed for.

 

Charge based - these are the best kind to own, but cost more. They monitor the charge rate and voltage of the battery and only charge for as long as needed. These don't have a timer (well, to be technically correct, most have a safety timer in case you have a bad battery so it doesn't sit there and charge it for days on end and eventually overheat it). Different chargers take different approaches to determining how the battery is charged, but regardless of which method is used, its always better than a timer based charger.

 

So called "FAST" chargers are also bad. Heat is the enemy of batteries, and the fast chargers heat them up significantly. Even the better chargers typically have several rates that you can charge batteries at, and the slower the better.

 

Here are two chargers that I really like (amazon links):

 

LaCrosse BC1000 for $59 I own the previous version of this model and love it.

 

LaCrosse BC-700 for $40 Essentially the same charger but doesn't come with some of the accessories and the top/fastest charging rates (which I never use) aren't on it.

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personally, maybe I will look into this again. I used the rechargeable ones before but they just wiped out so quickly, I went back to the big aa duracell packs at Costco and tried to at least recycle my batteries at places that took them in. Thanks to those who have posted information on this so far.

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I'm not a battery geek. I don't have fancy rechargables or a fancy recharger. I don't want to turn batteries into a 2nd hobby. I have used nothing but Energizer NiMH rechargables for years and have been totally happy with the results. I have one pair for my GPS and another for my digital camera. I am aware of the self-discharge rate, so I make a habit of charging them before I need them. I have Entergizer's 15 minute charger, and while some will say that is bad for the batteries, I easily get a year or more per pair, using them almost every weekend, often for both days. I can cache all day, perhaps two (although I never have cached for two days on a set without recharging).

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Another vote for Eneloops with the slow overnight charger. I've been rotating four pair for over a year now with no discernible loss of power.

But why? I keep hearing this advice, but it makes no sense to me when my 15 minute Energizer outfit, which is available everywhere, charges in 15 minutes and the charge lasts all day and the batteries last at least a year? If they sucked, I could totally understand seeking out fancier batteries and exotic charges, and overnight charging. But they don't suck. They work well.

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I've had excellent luck with Eneloops and a cheap-o charger. In fact, the batteries started physically falling apart before losing charge capacity. I rotate through 4 pairs and always have juice for a full day of caching. I recently picked up a pack of Energizer NiMH rechargables and they have suited me well so far.

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Another vote for Eneloops with the slow overnight charger. I've been rotating four pair for over a year now with no discernible loss of power.

But why? I keep hearing this advice, but it makes no sense to me when my 15 minute Energizer outfit, which is available everywhere, charges in 15 minutes and the charge lasts all day and the batteries last at least a year? If they sucked, I could totally understand seeking out fancier batteries and exotic charges, and overnight charging. But they don't suck. They work well.

I had a 15 minutes charger and after a year or so the batteries didn't hold a charge nearly as long. Even when they were newer if I charged them up and left them on my desk for a week they'd only last a few hours. I've been using my Eneloops for about 3 years now and they still last all day, and best of all I can charge them, leave them sit for a month and they'll still give me a day of caching.

The quick charger was certainly handy, but with the shelf life of a charge on the Eneloops, I can just grab the next set and go and feel confident that they'll last a long time.

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But why? I keep hearing this advice, but it makes no sense to me when my 15 minute Energizer outfit, which is available everywhere, charges in 15 minutes and the charge lasts all day and the batteries last at least a year? If they sucked, I could totally understand seeking out fancier batteries and exotic charges, and overnight charging. But they don't suck. They work well.

It'll be interesting (but not highly productive, I'd admit) to conduct a test to see what is the capacity of the battery after running it through a 15 minute recharge torture cycle, to one that has been pampered by a slower charger.

 

My personal view is, the batteries are inexpensive enough. If it lasts through only 50 recharge cycles, instead of 500, you're not going to have to take out a second mortgage, and it's still cheaper than disposable batteries. If it works for you, stick with it. Personally I like to treat my batteries more gently, and I still have Eneloops purchased more than 4 years ago in use. With the hybrids, I don't need to spend 15 minutes recharging, they're ready when I am (provided I remember to charge them when they're depleted).

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BTW there are 3 types of Eneloop batteries in the market now:

 

1. The regular 1500 recharge cycles, with a quoted capacity of 1900 - 2000 mAH. This is the one most people buy. Also known as second generation Eneloops (1st generation has lifespan of 500 - 1000 recharge cycles).

 

2. The high capacity Eneloop XX. I have a set of these as well, and they really do last longer. 2500 mAH. 25% more capacity at about double the price. Not worth it from a price / performance perspective. They also self discharge at a faster rate and have a shorter lifespan (500 recharge cycles).

 

3. The "Japan only" (for now) Eneloops, same capacity as the regular ones, but with 1800 recharge cycles. Also known as 3rd generation Eneloops.

 

To put recharge cycles into perspective : if you recharge once a week, 500 cycles = 9 1/2 years of use.

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I'll be the party pooper. I used NiMH batteries for a while and gave up on them. I had Maha batteries and charger, which are supposed to be good. I treated them according to directions. But within a couple of years, they wouldn't take enough of a charge to turn on the GPSr, and a GPSr tends to be one of the more low-voltage-tolerant devices.

 

Also, although my GPSr is tolerant of the lower voltage of NiMH cells (1.2V instead of the 1.5V-1.6V of alkaline cells), some other devices are not so tolerant. Lighting devices tend to put out less light at the lower voltage. I had one medical device which just flat out refused to use the rechargeable, though I blame the maker of the device rather than the batteries.

 

I'm back to alkalines and happy. If I look around and exercise a little patience, I can find AA batteries for 20 cents apiece. (Lowe's sells a box of 100 AA batteries for $20, though I've had trouble with my local store being out of stock.) They work in my GPSr, both my cameras, and a couple of other devices I can't remember at the moment. As for "batteries running out", a pair of spare alkalines costs about 50 cents, and a six-pack about $3 -- what's the comparable cost for NiMH?

 

AA alkaline cells are light enough that I don't mind carrying several spares when I'm hiking. They contain no hazardous materials, and nothing valuable except the energy. Some places claim to recycle them, but the last time I looked there was no market and they probably went to the landfill anyway -- where they are one of the less dangerous items tossed. Many communities tell you just to put them in the garbage.

 

Lithium ion batteries may eventually convert me. But you can't substitute a lithium ion battery for an alkaline or NiMH.

 

In the mean time, I find alkaline batteries far more convenient. I don't have to remember to charge them or worry about when to charge them. If one goes bad, I toss it and forget it. Less hassle. For me, obviously many find the opposite.

 

Edward

Edited by paleolith
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I'll be the party pooper. I used NiMH batteries for a while and gave up on them. I had Maha batteries and charger, which are supposed to be good. I treated them according to directions. But within a couple of years, they wouldn't take enough of a charge to turn on the GPSr, and a GPSr tends to be one of the more low-voltage-tolerant devices.

Well, I can't explain why NiMH batteries don't like you, but you are certainly in the minority, by a very large margin. I would NEVER, EVER, EVER go back to alkaline for anything other than a flashlight. Your experience is most definitely not the norm.

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But within a couple of years, they wouldn't take enough of a charge to turn on the GPSr

I think you need to reset your expectations... If you can get 1-2 years of regular use out of NiMH batteries, that's about all you can ask for, and even then they are an unbelievable investment.

 

what's the comparable cost for NiMH?

 

In my GPS... I probably replace my batteries once a week. I recycle my NiMH about once every year if I use them heavily. Let's do the math shall we? My annual investment in GPS batteries is $2.50. Since I alternate my Garmin between battery pair "A" and "B" I actually get about 2 years total use out of 4 batteries. My annual investment in alkalines just for my garmin would be 104 batteries * 20 cents per battery = 20 bucks. Between my bike head/tail light, my digital camera, my caching flashlight, my headlamp, and my GPS... I buy about $20 of NiMH batteries per year, vs. over $200 if I bought discount alkalines. And, I put about 500 fewer batteries a year into landfills. There's a moral imperative here that transcends just saving money. But my costs are a good rule of thumb... NiMH batteries cost about 1/10th the cost of generic alkalines and about 1/40th the cost of retail name brand batteries in small quantities.

 

In most slow-draw gear like a GPSr, I get slightly better life (10-20%) out of a new set of NiMH than alkalines, and probably about 10% less than alakalines after a year of charge cycles. In high draw devices like my digital camera, my NiMH batteries start out lasting roughly 3x longer than alkalines when new, and it takes about 1.5 to 2 years before my NiMH batteries have aged to the point where I get roughly equal life between alkalines and a single NiMH charge. NiMH chemistry, like lithium ion and polymer batteries is much better equipped for high current draws that just kill an alkaline.

 

And what people have said about chargers is so true. Even back in the days of NiCd batteries, people always talked about memory effects. But Malloroy Batteries did some serious research and found that 80% of the time that cell degradation had occurred, it was actually a chemical breakdown caused by cell overheating during charging, and NOT "memory" that was to blame. A big part of NiMH's supremacy over NiCds is not just power density, but resilience to charge overheating. Charge heat management is a HUGE problem in Lion batteries. Part of the high cost of Lion batteries is that a thermal cutoff is actually engineered into the internal workings of a Lion battery.

 

One last thing. I don't mix and match batteries, it's too hard to identify unhealthy cells that way. I pair them up for life, use them together, and dispose of them together. I use a label maker and label my batteries with their main purpose, which set, and purchase date (like "Garmin 60csx Set A, 2/12).

 

I have had tremendous luck with Tenergy brand batteries, which I have been buying from All-Battery with tremendous results. I use the regular 2500 mAh AA cells in everything except my camera, where I use the low discharge batteries (eneloop equivalent). I carry 8x AAAs and a minimum of 4x AAs, usually 6 or 8, in my day pack using these cases from a company called "InAnyCase".

 

OK, one last thing, and I mean it! Don't buy NiMH batteries if the manufacturer does not specifically state the capacity. The maximum power density available for an AA battery is 2,600 mAh, and yet most consumer over-the-counter batteries you buy at stores will be 1800-2000 mAh. It gets worse as you go up... Consumer C cells are almost always 2500 mAh... in other words, it is just an AA battery in a larger can. C cells should be about 5,000 mAh, and D cells around 10,000 mAh. AAAs should be about 1,000.

Edited by Sky King 36
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I've had brand name NiMH die on me after mere months of use. I'll never get Duracell or Energizer NiMH again. Some batches are good, others junk.

 

If your flashlight has a regulated output, NiMH works wonderfully. I have Eneloops in my Fenix LD20. And they're superior to alkalines in camera flashes. Shorter recycle time.

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Probably ANY type of rechargeable is better than a non-rechargeable. :wub:

Let's get the most we can out of those metals and chemicals. B)

One thing to be aware of is that rechargeables need to be re-cycled properly...DO NOT throw them in the regular trash when they are finished. ;)

Caches aren't a place for spent batteries either!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Crikey, I am the original poster of this thread and did not realise it is soooooooooooo complicated. My machine is a Garmin 62st and I live in the UK. Think I might be going for Enloop batteries but not too sure which power to get and a La Crosse 700 charger. Any thoughts and are these 2 compatible. Thanks to everyone for their help!

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Crikey, I am the original poster of this thread and did not realise it is soooooooooooo complicated. My machine is a Garmin 62st and I live in the UK. Think I might be going for Enloop batteries but not too sure which power to get and a La Crosse 700 charger. Any thoughts and are these 2 compatible. Thanks to everyone for their help!

Get the regular (white, but available in some other interesting colors occasionally) Eneloops with 2000 mAH, they're the best value for money. They're entirely compatible with the LaCrosse BC-700.

 

I use mine with the LaCrosse BC-9009 which is just a beefed up version with extra batteries (since replaced by the BC-1000 by the manufacturer). Since the batteries are not low self discharge, and I never use the highest recharge rate, and I don't use the adapters, I could have saved myself some money and went with the 700.

 

Don't forget to switch the battery type on the GPSr to NiMH. It will give you a more accurate indication of charge left.

 

Edit : do people in the U.K. actually say "crikey"? I thought it's only Australians :)

Edited by Chrysalides
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I bought a 4 pak of Duracell DX1500NiMh rechargable batteries with a charger from Wal Mart in November of 2009. It was a "Black Friday" deal and I paid $10.00. I use them in my Garmin Colorado 300. I have had some very long (10+ hours) caching days and when I start using a fresh pair of batteries I've never worn them out in a single day. Usually I can count on a solid 1.5 days of use out of a pair before I need to swap them out for a fresh set. Those batteries and charger have paid for themselves dozens of times already. Totally worth the money and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

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I think you need to reset your expectations... If you can get 1-2 years of regular use out of NiMH batteries, that's about all you can ask for, and even then they are an unbelievable investment.

 

[snip]

 

One last thing. I don't mix and match batteries, it's too hard to identify unhealthy cells that way.

 

A good charger can work wonders. My Maha C-9000 has kept two pairs of Evereadys going for heavy, almost-daily use (caching is my life) for about five years now.

 

And a good charger can report a cell's capacity after going through a refresh cycle. I write the capacity on a piece of masking tape I put on each cell. You can safely match cells with similar remaining capacities; the manual says so.

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I bought a 4 pak of Duracell DX1500NiMh rechargable batteries with a charger from Wal Mart in November of 2009. It was a "Black Friday" deal and I paid $10.00. I use them in my Garmin Colorado 300. I have had some very long (10+ hours) caching days and when I start using a fresh pair of batteries I've never worn them out in a single day. Usually I can count on a solid 1.5 days of use out of a pair before I need to swap them out for a fresh set. Those batteries and charger have paid for themselves dozens of times already. Totally worth the money and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

... and that was with a Colorado!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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I bought a 4 pak of Duracell DX1500NiMh rechargable batteries with a charger from Wal Mart in November of 2009. It was a "Black Friday" deal and I paid $10.00. I use them in my Garmin Colorado 300. I have had some very long (10+ hours) caching days and when I start using a fresh pair of batteries I've never worn them out in a single day. Usually I can count on a solid 1.5 days of use out of a pair before I need to swap them out for a fresh set. Those batteries and charger have paid for themselves dozens of times already. Totally worth the money and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

... and that was with a Colorado!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

We probably would not have been out so long if I didn't have to wait forever for you to find an AMMO CAN cache called "The Porch" that was hidden almost in plain sight.

 

015f1dc6-6bc5-4622-b013-95f4d4039f1c.jpg

 

Sorry dog...I had to. LOL that.

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I think you need to reset your expectations... If you can get 1-2 years of regular use out of NiMH batteries, that's about all you can ask for, and even then they are an unbelievable investment.

 

[snip]

 

One last thing. I don't mix and match batteries, it's too hard to identify unhealthy cells that way.

 

A good charger can work wonders. My Maha C-9000 has kept two pairs of Evereadys going for heavy, almost-daily use (caching is my life) for about five years now.

 

And a good charger can report a cell's capacity after going through a refresh cycle. I write the capacity on a piece of masking tape I put on each cell. You can safely match cells with similar remaining capacities; the manual says so.

 

I totally believe that the Maha chargers are superior ($69.95 for the C-9000), and five years is astounding, for sure. I am also aware of the refresh cycle. I almost went that route a few years ago. If you want the Mercedes, that is indeed the way to go. But for most of us, a Chevy like the Energizer 15 minute charger ($37.99 with four AA-cells) will work just fine.

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I buy eneloops and use the charger they come with. They are not perfect though. Despite their claims, if you do not use them regularly they will discharge and even die if you let them drain all the way and stay that way awhile. They will not sit in a cabinet for a year or more and 100% of them survive just fine, from my experience.... they must be used. :)

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I use the Eneloop 2000 mAh batteries, 4 sets are cycling here. That I use in combination with the Maha Powerex MH-C9000 charger.

mhc9000_4.jpgfile_1_6.jpg

 

Although it was a little investment I am very pleased with those materials. :anibad: Never had better chargeable batteries then with the Eneloops. The charger himself is also a very good toy. You can charge your battery on whatever maH you choose. The higher the quicker, but the best thing to do is charge your batteries at 1/3 of it's total capacity. (That's what I've been told and that's what in the manual of the charger.) :anitongue:

With this magnificent charger you can charge, discharge, cycle and even try to bring dead batteries back to life (refresh analyze break-in function). I tried that myself with 5 pairs of batteries. 3 pairs I brought back to life. Naturally these weren't Eneloop batteries, but Energizers of my brother in law. :laughing:

 

So ... that's my experience with Eneloop batteries and Powerex chargers. If somebody tells me that there are other good batteries, well, I believe them. But for me it is ENELOOP ALL THE WAY!!! :laughing:

 

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And a good charger can report a cell's capacity after going through a refresh cycle. I write the capacity on a piece of masking tape I put on each cell. You can safely match cells with similar remaining capacities; the manual says so.

Oh, I totally agree there's no requirement at all to keep battery pairs together. The reason I suggest this is, that for those who don't have any kind of battery conditioner, it's very hard to keep track of batteries. You end up with a little box with 30 batteries in it and there's no way to keep track of which ones are older, which ones are in better condition... if you create battery "sets" that you keep together, then it becomes easier to notice patterns and history. I agree, a good conditioner resolves a lot of that.

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I use the Eneloop 2000 mAh batteries, 4 sets are cycling here. That I use in combination with the Maha Powerex MH-C9000 charger.

mhc9000_4.jpgfile_1_6.jpg

 

Although it was a little investment I am very pleased with those materials. :anibad: Never had better chargeable batteries then with the Eneloops. The charger himself is also a very good toy. You can charge your battery on whatever maH you choose. The higher the quicker, but the best thing to do is charge your batteries at 1/3 of it's total capacity. (That's what I've been told and that's what in the manual of the charger.) :anitongue:

With this magnificent charger you can charge, discharge, cycle and even try to bring dead batteries back to life (refresh analyze break-in function). I tried that myself with 5 pairs of batteries. 3 pairs I brought back to life. Naturally these weren't Eneloop batteries, but Energizers of my brother in law. :laughing:

 

So ... that's my experience with Eneloop batteries and Powerex chargers. If somebody tells me that there are other good batteries, well, I believe them. But for me it is ENELOOP ALL THE WAY!!! :laughing:

 

Eneloops are the gold standard among rechargables

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I think you need to reset your expectations... If you can get 1-2 years of regular use out of NiMH batteries, that's about all you can ask for, and even then they are an unbelievable investment.

 

Thanks for posting all the details.

 

Trouble was, with mine, I was using them probably five days a month, and they still died after a couple of years. I don't think I got more than 50 recharge cycles from them. And these were from Maha, 2200mAh. I don't remember the price, which has obviously dropped a lot in the last six years. But even with my lesser amount of use it amounted to more like $20/year on rechargeables just for the GPSr and camera, and at that time they were expensive enough that carrying spares was a non-starter of an idea. And of course with less use, the cost of the charger was relatively higher.

 

I don't know why mine lasted so poorly.

 

If I were using more, perhaps I'd try them again. I'm not even using 100/year, so for me the hassle of figuring all this out relative to savings ($ and landfill) is higher than for a heavier user. And perhaps the day will come ... but then, we are likely to be seeing a lot more devices taking Li-ion batteries, so I expect NiMH use will gradually shift to Li-ion anyway, at least at the high end.

 

And my bicycle headlight, bought recently, is indeed Li-ion. Would have bought a tail light with Li-ion too but could not find one I liked. But the thing runs 30 hours on 2 AAA alkaline cells ...

 

Landfill? Well, 500 AA/year would be a significant part of my landfill contribution, though still a minor part. But it's a small contribution -- I take the garbage out for pickup every other week whether I need to or not, and I could manage monthly pickups. My quantity has gone down since my city recently started accepting all PETE for recycling, not just bottles and jars, so batteries became a higher proportion. At my 100/year or less, I think it's still a trivial part.

 

Anyway, thanks again for all the info. Obviously it's very much worth continuing to watch developments. And Chrysalides' comment about faster flash recharge ... hmm, that could interest me.

 

Edward

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And Chrysalides' comment about faster flash recharge ... hmm, that could interest me.

Here's more information from a photography blog : http://strobist.blogspot.com/2007/09/feed.html

 

I use them in my Canon 580EX.

 

The reason for the faster cycling time is that NiMH has a lower internal resistance than alkaline batteries, so it is able to supply much higher current, and can recharge the camera flash faster.

 

If you have an external flash, and you want to run a test, remember to set the flash to manual mode for testing.

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