One step forward, two steps back

2.5k · July 17, 2003

I'm glad that there is a lot of work going on behind the scenes, and I am all for improvements, but lately it seems that I have to work much harder than I used to around here. With each improvement, I seem to lose some functionality. I’ll explain below and keep my fingers crossed that some fixes are in the works.

I used to be able to see an actual date a cache was found, now I have to dig for this data since the actual date has been replaced by a less accurate method of days and months ago.

I used to be able to type in a zip code at the main page and have a nearest list that categorized finds, hides and not available. Now I have to do multiple clicking or book marking to filter out my finds. Maybe I’m not understanding how the new searches are helpful to reducing impact on the server. In my searches, my finds, hides, and not available caches still show up and are distinguished by color shading and icons, so to me that means the data requested and delivered is still the same as before, but not categorized as before. Was the big impact on the server the categorization of the search results?

I used to be able to click on a member’s profile and get a quick peek and their total find and hide count. Now I have to add up the different finds myself to arrive at the total.

I used to be able to click on another member’s profile, click on their number of finds, and see what caches they have hunted and on what date. The functionality to do this with just a mouse click is now gone.

I used to have cookies to log me in automatically, now it’s a daily requirement if using more than one computer. I realize there are some security issues, but maybe there is a less annoying way to stay logged in.

When I email someone with an answer to a virtual cache question, I end up getting a carbon copy in my mail. My email account already receives more junk mail than necessary. I never requested any of these carbon copies, they serve no purpose for me, and are essentially junk mail. Is it really that difficult to figure out how to turn this off? Elias promised a temporary fix over a half year ago. Is it possible to bump this up on the priority list?

I realize that some folks have been helpful in coming up with some bookmarks for links that perform some of this stuff, but maybe there should be some links on the web site to sort of speed things up for the users. One or two changes here and there is easy to deal with, but now it just feels like it is so much harder to perform the same functions we were able to easily do before the improvements. The whole point of having computers is to let the machines do the work for us.

[This message was edited by cachew nut on July 17, 2003 at 12:32 PM.]

1.4k · July 17, 2003

quote:
Maybe I’m not understanding how the new searches are helpful to reducing impact on the server. ... Was the big impact on the server the categorization of the search results?

Before the change, for EACH page of results you viewed, the server had to do an entire search through the database, just to show you a subset of those caches it found.

Now, it just does the search for the FIRST page, and caches the results. Subsequent pages are rendered quickly because it doesn't have to search the database again.

quote:
I used to have cookies to log me in automatically, now it’s a daily requirement if using more than one computer. I realize there are some security issues, but maybe there is a less annoying way to stay logged in.

How do you get to the site when you first sit down at the computer? Do you use a bookmark, or type in the address each time? If you use a bookmark, just edit it to log you in at the same time.

quote:
When I email someone with an answer to a virtual cache question, I end up getting a carbon copy in my mail.

How difficult is it to uncheck the checkbox before clicking Send?

Hemlock - The alternative to purple frownies.

2.5k · July 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Hemlock:
Before the change, for EACH page of results you viewed, the server had to do an entire search through the database, just to show you a subset of those caches it found.

Now, it just does the search for the FIRST page, and caches the results. Subsequent pages are rendered quickly because it doesn't have to search the database again.

I'll take your word for it, it seems to make sense. But, as a user, it does not make things faster for me since I first have to search a zipcode, then click on a new search, and then type in the same zip code again and this time checking the exclude box. So on my end, things take longer. It would be nice if the system remembered the zip code, that way all I would need to do is click the exclude box without having to type the zip code again when I do a new search. click, click, click.

Additionally, let's say I put a zip code in on the first page and a different zip code on the new search page. It would still need to search the database the way it used to.

quote:
How do you get to the site when you first sit down at the computer? Do you use a bookmark, or type in the address each time? If you use a bookmark, just edit it to log you in at the same time.

I use a bookmark to get to the home page. My understanding of how it works is that if you log on with a different computer, then the cookie on the first computer is no longer valid and you need to log in again when you get back to that first computer. Did I misunderstand that part?

quote:
How difficult is it to uncheck the checkbox before clicking Send?

Unchecking the box is pretty easy. Unfortunately it does not stop the website from sending a carbon copy of the email to my email address, all it does is prevent your email address from being sent in the body of the message. How difficult is it to understand that?

[This message was edited by cachew nut on July 17, 2003 at 05:46 PM.]

July 17, 2003

Thank you Cachew Nut for saying everything I wanted to say. You have all the same complaints that I do, and what happened to the map feature that shows what caches we have found. Can we fix what is currently broken instead of what is already working?

July 17, 2003

I just wanted to say "Thanks!" to all the admins and their hard work. Everyone has something they could complain about (so do I) but do you realize how much hard work they are doing?!?!? They can't satisfy everyone, and they have in their best intentions to make the site better for everyone. Thanks again admins, I truly appreciate what you do for the "geocaching world"

jhwf4

2.5k · July 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by jhwf4:
I just wanted to say "Thanks!" to all the admins and their hard work.

Yes we all know they are working hard, that wasn't the point of this thread. We all work hard. I'm trying to address the issues that seem to be causing me some grief. I'm sure if you search the forums you will find the brown nose thread in there somewhere

July 18, 2003

I, too, am having some difficulty navigating through the site's new features. While I am thankful for all the hard work TPTB do, It seems as though the "user-friendly" site we used to know is now gone! Imagine a Newbie who has never read the forums trying to navigate this! It has definitely hindered my recent cache hunting trips, but so has the HEAT and a new metal detector!

Pudman

On Edit: brown nose thread= LOL!!!

July 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:

quote:
Originally posted by jhwf4:
I just wanted to say "Thanks!" to all the admins and their hard work.

Yes we all know they are working hard, that wasn't the point of this thread. We all work hard. I'm trying to address the issues that seem to be causing me some grief. I'm sure if you search the forums you will find the brown nose thread in there somewhere

Thank you cachew nut! The list of issues is not unreasonable and I don't think you ever questioned the intentions of TPTB.

2.5k · July 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Pudman&Pookie2:
I, too, am having some difficulty navigating through the site's new features.

There is also a lack of supporting documentation when the changes are made. New changes are usually followed by a barrage of questions in the forums. Unless you stay current in the forums, it gets difficult to stay on top of the changes.

One thing I'd like to point out is that the success this site experienced in the People's Choice awards was in part due to the clean interface and ease of use.

I agree that the newbie would most likely find the navigation difficult, although the newbie probably wouldn't be too worried about filtering their own finds yet.

24.7k · July 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Hemlock:

quote:
When I email someone with an answer to a virtual cache question, I end up getting a carbon copy in my mail.
How difficult is it to uncheck the checkbox before clicking Send?

Hemlock - The alternative to purple frownies.

I've never seen that option. The only checkmark I see is to include my email address.

July 18, 2003

Okay, I don't mind bickering, but I just wanted to make sure some appreciation was shown...brown nose thread

jhwf4

2.5k · July 18, 2003

Please try to stay on topic, seriously. Thanks

6.4k · July 18, 2003

Ya know, if you would just move to Washington, you wouldn't be having these problems. I hear WA residents get the good version of the website.

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

July 18, 2003

I agree with cashew nut's original post. Far too many changes are going on without real thought as to the impact. For years I have managed developers and I understand their mindset. They often make changes based on what they THINK the users want, but that are usually 175 degrees from what users ACTUALLY want -- not quite 180 degrees, but almost. After the changes are made, then follow instructions, discussions, and opportunities for feedback, if any.

At some point, this will have to be treated like an enterprise application with thousands of users. Design docs will have to created and approved, hopefully by the masses.

We could start out simply -- perhaps the members could be allowed the opportunity to vote on all features or changes. That way those of us who have paid money for the service have a say as to the sites eventual direction.

Ad hoc changes at the whim of developers are proven to be more disasterous in the long-term.

1.1k · July 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by GeoROCKS!:
I agree with cashew nut's original post. Far too many changes are going on without real thought as to the impact.

You're assuming quite a bit. We're at about a 10/1 ratio of folks supporting the new changes to folks against them. And considering the most vocal are the nay-sayers, that's saying something.

The nearest cache page, for example, was shown to a small group of active geocachers before hand for feedback, that feedback resulted in many changes.

The searches are also much more efficient. Your finds/not finds/watchlists etc only query the database for the items on that page. Before it would do it for EVERY item for the search results. If you want them filter it out.

If you're a premium member, use pocket queries.

As for the user's profile it looks like you're just going to have to click on that folder icon to get the stats. From the beginning I stated that points don't matter, and I stress that as often as I can. If you want to compete with others on their find counts, be my guest. Now you can even exclude items that don't count in your mind.

Keep the login issues separate from the overall discussion of changes. This is in regard to the necessity of changing the codebase, and should be solved in the next week or so.

Lastly, I added a checkbox so you can exclude getting a carbon copy (it is checked by default).

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

July 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
You're assuming quite a bit. We're at about a 10/1 ratio of folks supporting the new changes to folks against them. And considering the most vocal are the nay-sayers, that's saying something.

Meaning? The yeah-sayers don't care as much? Is that 10:1 of paying members? Long-time users? Does that mean that 9 out of 10 don't use a feature the way you expect so that breaking it for only 1 of the 10 is somehow more acceptable?! You said it perfectly -- ''the most vocal are the nay-sayers'' -- which indicates some sort of problem! Yahoo can fold for all I care; I don't use its services much and I don't pay a nickel to use it. Geocaching, on the other hand, is currently an integral part of my life thanks to what you've created for the sport, otherwise I wouldn't care or be vocal about the problems I may or may not have. And I pay to use and support it.

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
The nearest cache page, for example, was shown to a small group of active geocachers before hand for feedback, that feedback resulted in many changes.

I don't doubt that, but a large focus group would provide even more valuable results. Many changes, though, seem to be ocurring without concensus.

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
The searches are also much more efficient. Your finds/not finds/watchlists etc only query the database for the items on that page. Before it would do it for EVERY item for the search results. If you want them filter it out.

That doesn't change functionality; that improves performance. No complaints there. Feel free to improve performance as much as possible without affecting the user experience.

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
If you're a premium member, use pocket queries.

Why is it that everyone's solution to a problem is to use PQs more often? I do. Every day. But I still like to use the website every now and then.

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
As for the user's profile it looks like you're just going to have to click on that folder icon to get the stats. From the beginning I stated that points don't matter, and I stress that as often as I can. If you want to compete with others on their find counts, be my guest. Now you can even exclude items that don't count in your mind.

You leap to the conclusion that it's about stats. I didn't say a thing about competition. My best friend is Equinox 2002, another geocaching (paying!) member. Occasionally, I like to see what he's been up to. Seeing one simple number lets me know if he's been caching lately. Now, not only can I no longer see that measure of activity, but I have to click on multiple cache types just to view whaetever caches he has visited and to read the logs. Before, I could do that in one click from his profile page. (And, yes, I know there are ways around how to get the information that I want, but that's not the point)

Long live geocaching.com!! Just don't break it (intentionally or otherwise) for those who use it most.

[This message was edited by GeoROCKS! on July 18, 2003 at 01:16 PM.]

2.5k · July 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
Lastly, I added a checkbox so you can exclude getting a carbon copy (it is checked by default).

Thanks Jeremy for adding this. This was very important to me.

As for the other issues I brought up, they are strictly opinions from my point of view, and I realize they may not reflect the feelings of others. Thanks for considering them. I hope you don't consider me a nay-sayer for giving my opinion.

I really wish you would reconsider putting the actual dates back on the cache lists. The days and months ago really do not provide the accurate information that the actual date can provide. As an example, if I was interested in knowing how many caches a particular person found during a particular week, it would take an awful lot of work on my end as compared to using the dates as a starting point. I can't imagine a 10:1 ratio of users preferring the current method, but I may be wrong. Maybe some sort of random sampling could verify if this is so.

One other thing I didn't mention but I'll bring up now, On the profile page I think I would prefer all of the information on one page rather than on two separate tabs. Or in place of this, a total on the profile page and the breakout could remain the same on the stats page.

I realize my post included a lot, but I felt it would make it easier to review rather than having a bunch of separate posts for each issue. Thanks again for looking.

July 18, 2003

Gee, cashew_nut, your complaints seem so trivial to me that you sound like you're whining.

1. I can't log into the forums, except by borrowing somebody's computer; so I can't post.

2. I can't get to the HideSeek page: it says "Forbidden (Invalid URL)"

3. Last night I couldn't even properly log a cache find because the site kept logging me out, and it's not like I was switching between systems or anything. The three times I was lucky enough get to the "Log A Cache" page, twice it ended up just logging me out and ignoring my log. I'm not sure I'm going to log any more finds now because that hour was just frustrating as hell.

There are probably still other "minor" bugs (like the cache page is broken when I get the Log Notification emails, Delete Log button doesn't work, can't get to the second page of any Nearest search), but the site is just so unusable now that I'm not even going to bother trying to reproduce these now. And you think you can complain things as trivial as not seeing the date a cache was found?

2.5k · July 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by kablooey:
I'm not sure I'm going to log any more finds now because that hour was just frustrating as hell.

Is that you kablooey? Are you sure you didn't mean that you can't log your no-finds?

July 18, 2003

I just have one little thing I don't like about the new profile page. I'm not sure that anything can be done about it. There are two cache finds listed as virtual. Those two were real physical caches when I found them. I've never gone after a virtual cache. Now my profile says I have.

I know "whine, whine, whine"

Byron

9.4k · July 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Byron & Anne:
I've never gone after a virtual cache. Now my profile says I have.

Complain to the owner of those caches. They shouldn't convert them to virtuals. It's good that we do break them out so you can let the geocachers know when they aren't supposed to do that.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

9.4k · July 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by kablooey:
..

Send an email to contact@geocaching.com. Hideseek page doesn't work and it *should* ask your browser to redirect. I changed the links to reflect the change.

Contact me with specific errors you have. I'm assuming that it is being caused by a redirect issue your browser is unable to handle.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

24.7k · July 18, 2003

Just don't move the "Log your visit" option on the cache page. Given world enough and time I'll figure out everything else that I can't find or do anymore and get used to the parts that I've not spoken up about.

You can even accidently lose my ability to post in the forums. But please don't move the "Log this Cache" option. I rather like that one where it's at.

July 19, 2003

I've noticed some discussion on the dates the cache was last found in this and other threads. I was used to the old way and have become comfortable with the new. I really don't care one way or the other. Is there a way to have both? Or perhaps a user selected switch to display the preferred method? That should put to rest this particular "Thorn-in-the-paw." Forgive me if this was covered in another thread, if it was I didn't see it.

How do the Angels get to sleep when the Devil leaves his porch light on?

3.5k · July 19, 2003

quote:
As for the user's profile it looks like you're just going to have to click on that folder icon to get the stats. From the beginning I stated that points don't matter, and I stress that as often as I can. If you want to compete with others on their find counts, be my guest. Now you can even exclude items that don't count in your mind.

I know this has been said before, but I want to mention it one more time. I really liked the old find total, not so much for the numbers, but for the link behind them. By clicking on the total I could see a chronological display of a cacher's activity. OR, when clicking on my own number, I could see how recently a cache I have done has been found. More often than not, I'd peek at these numbers on either Sunday night or Monday sometime to see how busy everyone in my area had been over the weekend.

More than just curiosity, though, it was handy when looking at a cache owner's profile to see how active the owner had been. If a cache was missing/not found for a while and I could see with one glance that the owner hadn't been caching in 8 months, I pretty much knew no maintenance was going on.

Whether numbers are there or not, I'd love to see this feature back.

Bret

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field.

When a man found it, he hid it again." Mt. 13:44

July 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy:

quote:
Originally posted by Byron & Anne:
I've never gone after a virtual cache. Now my profile says I have.

Complain to the owner of those caches. They shouldn't convert them to virtuals. It's good that we do break them out so you can let the geocachers know when they aren't supposed to do that.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

Sorry Jeremy, But I have a little problem with that answer. My experiences indicate that if somebody can do something then they will, "aren't supposed to do that" doesn't work. The only thing that will work is for your web site to NOT allow that change. I have no intention, nor do I feel obligated to complain to another cacher about something that appears to be an option.

Sorry, Just my $.02 worth.

Byron

6.4k · July 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Byron & Anne:
Sorry Jeremy, But I have a little problem with that answer. My experiences indicate that if somebody can do something then they will, "aren't supposed to do that" doesn't work. The only thing that will work is for your web site to NOT allow that change. I have no intention, nor do I feel obligated to complain to another cacher about something that appears to be an option.

Sorry, Just my $.02 worth.

Byron

So between people changing caches to virts because they are too lazy to replace them when they go missing, and the bonehead in another thread suggesting that you just submit a tupperware in a park and once its approved change it to whatever the hell you like, the end result is going to be Jeremy is going to have to lock these things in place once the cache is approved. That's the only way to disallow changes to a cache page that shouldn't be made after the fact.

"(Mopar is) good to have around and kick. Like an ugly puppy" - Jeremy

38.2k · July 22, 2003

quote:
So between people changing caches to virts because they are too lazy to replace them when they go missing, and the bonehead in another thread suggesting that you just submit a tupperware in a park and once its approved change it to whatever the hell you like, the end result is going to be Jeremy is going to have to lock these things in place once the cache is approved. That's the only way to disallow changes to a cache page that shouldn't be made after the fact.

That's not a bad idea. I think any update to the coordinates, or cache type should send it back to the approval queue. I still would want to be able to update the text without requiring approval though.

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

4.8k · July 22, 2003

quote:
That's not a bad idea. I think any update to the coordinates, or cache type should send it back to the approval queue. I still would want to be able to update the text without requiring approval though.

I agree. As long as the text could still be changed. I tend to change text to report on the hours people can get to one of my caches, and want to be able to change tick, poison ivy warnings etc.

2.6k · July 22, 2003

I don't agree with the coordinate change point. I have been to three caches in the last couple of months that I had the owner change their coords. One was over a hundred feet off. If their cache was to be temp unavailable 'till re-approved, I don't think they would be so willing to adjust coords.

Now changing the cache type would change the search criteria. That might be a good reason to have it looked at by admin.

However adding to the approvers queue can not be a good thing.

Pepper playing nice!

Mokita!

4.8k · July 22, 2003

quote:
I don't agree with the coordinate change point. I have been to three caches in the last couple of months that I had the owner change their coords. One was over a hundred feet off. If their cache was to be temp unavailable 'till re-approved, I don't think they would be so willing to adjust coords.

Good point, maybe coord changes over a certain amount could require re-approval. That would still allow for fixing coords that were somewhat off, or for slightly re-hiding a plundered cache.

July 22, 2003

quote:
From the beginning I stated that points don't matter, and I stress that as often as I can. If you want to compete with others on their find counts, be my guest.

It's not always about competition, but about showing activity. I kind of like to see when certain cachers are getting close to "milestone" caches so that I or others can give them a "congrats" message. I think it helps build comraderie. Even friendly "competition" helps build comraderie as well.

I agree with the previous posters that it was easier to find out what friends and neighbor cachers were doing before the change. (even though, yes, there are ways to still do it) The totals are still coming up in the logs, so isn't there a way to easily transfer them to the User Profile?

Please bring back the dates for last found too! Much easier to track.

Janine of cacheola crew

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Geocaching-HamptonRoadsVA/join

"You have brains in your head; You have feet in your shoes.

You can steer yourself any direction you choose.

You're on your own. And you know what you know.

And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go...."

Dr. Seuss

July 23, 2003

Jeremy,

I realize that to you points do not matter, but it is aparent that to a very large number of active regular cachers it is. You have done a great job in making the sport of geocaching better and easier for all involved, nad all that work is appreciated by most if not all of us. But, sports and activities take on a life of their own. Many geocachers use the stat total for numerous reasons, some competetive, and some not. As a programmer myself, I know that it is a simple matter to add several subtotals to give a grand total, and that the overhead for such an action is minimal. On another thread, I suggested that a stats page similar to Dans might be a good premium feature. It might help to convince some of those that dont feel a need to support the site now. As I have said before, I never will be a 'top' geocacher, but it is cool to see those that are, and to be able to compare your Adventures with others.

Again, Jeremy, thank you for all that you have done for our sport.

Thanks for all the Adventures

Gary and Mary

July 23, 2003

Our main use of the total is to know when folks have a "cache anniversary" coming up - 100, 200, etc. Folks make a big deal about that, not just for themselves, but for others in the community. Also, we do enjoy the gentle competition we have going with our nephew/cousin in South Carolina.

Of course, we appreciate all the work that's gone into the improvements. But I haven't heard a single good reason for *not* putting the cache total field back in. Given the demand for it, it seems a bit confusing why there's such resistance.

July 23, 2003

I wonder how many would care about cache totals, if the option had never existed. One option that might be nice would be a "most recent" button. Something that you could click on and see the most recent finds or hides by a specific cacher. I only thought of this when I went to view a cache hidden by someone recently and realized that I might have to search through four categories. I have no idea how hard it would be to make a button work like that. But if it could show all hides/finds for the last six days, it might be a nice feature.

July 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
Just don't move the "Log your visit" option on the cache page.

Yes, the "Log your visit" is in just the right spot for easy access without scrolling. However, the "log out" just above it needs to be moved. Several times I have tried to "log your visit", and the mouse moves slightly and logs me out!

1.4k · July 23, 2003

I'd like to see finds totalled up (minus travel bug finds) on the stats page in the profile. I miss it dearly. I can't seem to find a way to tell what my total find count is any more.

I'll read the thread now

(and for the record, I'm thrilled with the changes that have been made so far. The site has improved immensely in the last two months features-wise and performance-wise. I couldn't be happier. I do miss the total finds number pretty badly in my profile though.)

--------

trippy1976 - Team KKF2A

Saving geocaches - one golf ball at a time.

[This message was edited by trippy on July 23, 2003 at 08:12 PM.]

24.7k · July 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by kusanagi:
I wonder how many would care about cache totals, if the option had never existed. One option that might be nice would be a "most recent" button. Something that you could click on and see the most recent finds or hides by a specific cacher. I only thought of this when I went to view a cache hidden by someone recently and realized that I might have to search through four categories. I have no idea how hard it would be to make a button work like that. But if it could show all hides/finds for the last six days, it might be a nice feature.

It wouldn't take long at all before an stats page appeared. Like already happened even thought stats are available.

July 24, 2003

quote:

[This message was edited by Gary and Mary Adventurers on July 24, 2003 at 07:27 AM.]

July 24, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by trippy:
I'd like to see finds totalled up (minus travel bug finds) on the stats page in the profile. I miss it dearly. I can't seem to find a way to tell what my total find count is any more.

The best way that I have found to see an updated total for either myself, or some one that I know (and caches in my area) is to edit a log to a cache. At that point everyone's totals for that cache is updated, and you can look at your own as well as others.

It is probably not the best use of the sites resources, but it gives me the info I need.

If you went the next step, and wanted to know real-time totals for someone that has not done a cache that you have, you could post a note to any cache they have done, and their totals will be updated.

It may be a sneaky way to get info, but it works

Thanks for all the Adventures

Gary and Mary

[This message was edited by Gary and Mary Adventurers on July 24, 2003 at 07:29 AM.]

July 24, 2003

QUOTE: One option that might be nice would be a "most recent" button. Something that you could click on and see the most recent finds or hides by a specific cacher.

There is something like that, if you use the "caches found by username." This is very useful for me, since I track a lot of travel bugs (both mine and those I've moved), and they're often moved without being properly logged at one end or the other. Sometimes I'm able to find them by reading cache logs. It used to be easy, just by clicking on the user name, to get to a comprehensive list of their caches, sorted chronologically. Now it's just a bit more difficult, but still do-able, by cutting and pasting their name into the search engine. If it's someone I'm interested in (like my nephew), I'll bookmark the page that's generated so I can back to it more easily in the future.

3.1k · July 24, 2003

I agree with CYBret and The Alethiometrists re: the chronological lists of all finds. It's not so much the count itself that I miss, I rarely looked at that. But the chronolgy was *very* useful, particularly when trying to track down missing TBs. I realize there's a workaround as The Alethiometrists point out, but then, that's the original topic of this thread: some things aren't as easy as they were before.

Well the mountain was so beautiful that this guy built a mall and a pizza shack

Yeah he built an ugly city because he wanted the mountain to love him back -- Dar Williams

One step forward, two steps back

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