NM & NA

[Trinity's Crew]

What I find funny is that cache by the tracks has been there since 2008 and no one has mentioned the tracks until now.

 

Maybe this will demonstrate why caches should not be placed near tracks:

 

http://peekskill.patch.com/articles/video-geocache-near-railroad-causes-bomb-scare-in-peekskill#video-7752602

Are you honestly that afraid of everything, or are you just trolling the threads? Please don't ignore this post like you have you two others on the alarmist topics you've started before. I really want to know.

 

Are you that scared of things all of us see every day or are you just trying to stir the pot here in the forum?

+1

[+blue_eyedbutterfly]

What I find funny is that cache by the tracks has been there since 2008 and no one has mentioned the tracks until now.

 

Maybe this will demonstrate why caches should not be placed near tracks:

 

http://peekskill.patch.com/articles/video-geocache-near-railroad-causes-bomb-scare-in-peekskill#video-7752602

My point still stands, the cache has been there for over 3 years with no incidents or complaints.

 

Im sorry, but I think you are just being a bit picky. But that is just my opinion.

 

If you have issues with caches like these, don't go searching for them.

[+klipsch49er]

Forgive me for not embedding all those quotes applicable to the following comments:

 

If I NM every wet or moldy log I find I would be at my PC more than out looking for hides. A reality is that many COs don't and won't care for their hides. I formerly would note the fact that "the log is wet and need replacement" and after noticing how many finders had logged that exact message prior to me I decided the better approach was proaction rather than reaction. I carry zip lock baggies and logs so that I can repair caches. I figure if I can make a find more enjoyable and I'm helping the game.

 

Caches strewn about need either to be reconstituted by the finder or NMd.

 

Re: Rail Road Tracks. I know in the US the rail tracks are considered private property as they are owned and operated by a company, the rule allows the owners to keep people from doing damage or being stupid and getting run over by a train. Obviously it does not keep people from getting run over. I have found more than one hide that was a clever hollowed out spike. Active tracks? Probably since there was no rust on the surface of the rails. I felt in no danger since the tracks had visibility for miles in both direction and my hearing is excellent. I do not attempt caches where my physical limitations would yield a significant risk of injury.

 

A dangerous cache should be so annotated in the cache page or report it to the Reviewers.

 

If I see a NM note on a cache I may bypass it. If I do decide to investigate and NM I will report my findings to the CO and if I judge it necessary I'll NA it. I have never had a CO contact me and complain. In my home area I notice that the reviewer is proactive at contacting the COs if they have too many DNFs or NMs, Bravo!

 

There are those COs that can not manage their caches. I am not surprised since in the population there are those who can not manage their money, job, relationships, multiplicative tendencies. etc. Why should the game, a much less serious endeavor, be any different or have higher expectations?

 

Cache on!

 

[+Lil Devil]

Re: Rail Road Tracks. ... I have found more than one hide that was a clever hollowed out spike. Active tracks? Probably since there was no rust on the surface of the rails. I felt in no danger since the tracks had visibility for miles in both direction and my hearing is excellent.

Just because you didn't get caught doesn't mean you weren't breaking the law.

[+Totem Clan]

Re: Rail Road Tracks. I know in the US the rail tracks are considered private property as they are owned and operated by a company, the rule allows the owners to keep people from doing damage or being stupid and getting run over by a train. Obviously it does not keep people from getting run over. I have found more than one hide that was a clever hollowed out spike. Active tracks? Probably since there was no rust on the surface of the rails. I felt in no danger since the tracks had visibility for miles in both direction and my hearing is excellent. I do not attempt caches where my physical limitations would yield a significant risk of injury.

 

The guidline has nothing to do with safety. Even if there are no tracks present the cache will not be allowed on Railroad property because to enter railroad property is tresspassing. It is that simple.

 

I have seen a cache archive simply because it was on the railroad right-of-way even though the tracks had been removed years before.

[ertyu]

...was right beside train tracks.

 

 

Were they ACTIVE railroad tracks?

 

 

Any railroad with rails should be considered an active railroad. Period. Full stop.

[Trinity's Crew]

Re: Rail Road Tracks. I know in the US the rail tracks are considered private property as they are owned and operated by a company, the rule allows the owners to keep people from doing damage or being stupid and getting run over by a train. Obviously it does not keep people from getting run over. I have found more than one hide that was a clever hollowed out spike. Active tracks? Probably since there was no rust on the surface of the rails. I felt in no danger since the tracks had visibility for miles in both direction and my hearing is excellent. I do not attempt caches where my physical limitations would yield a significant risk of injury.

 

The guidline has nothing to do with safety. Even if there are no tracks present the cache will not be allowed on Railroad property because to enter railroad property is tresspassing. It is that simple.

 

I have seen a cache archive simply because it was on the railroad right-of-way even though the tracks had been removed years before.

I agree about the RR right of way. It's apparently sketchy and inconsistent because it boils down to how much property the railroad company owns along any given stretch of rail. But the little I've read on it indicates that it's usually at least 25 feet on either side from the center of the tracks.

 

Having said that, I don't know whether this particular cache is on railroad property and I doubt whether AneMae knows either.

[+klipsch49er]

The guidline has nothing to do with safety. Even if there are no tracks present the cache will not be allowed on Railroad property because to enter railroad property is tresspassing. It is that simple.

 

I have seen a cache archive simply because it was on the railroad right-of-way even though the tracks had been removed years before.

 

Apparently the existance of caches in the spikes that hold rails to ties is proof of the inconsistency of the application of that guidline!

 

The last time I found one of these was on the inside edge of the rails that were located in a decommissioned army base.

[+AneMae]

Yet another reason why to stay away from railroad tracks.

 

From the Chicago Tribune- June 1st.

 

Inbound and outbound Metra Union Pacific West Line trains were delayed this afternoon after a suspicious package -- later determined to be a device used in a treasure hunt game -- was discovered hanging over the train tracks, officials said.

 

A passerby found the device suspended by fishing line from the Illinois Prairie Path overpass above the Union Pacific Railroad tracks in Wheaton at about 1:35 p.m., Wheaton officials said.

 

Authorities determined the device was a "geocaching" game piece, officials said. Geocaching is a outdoor treasure hunting game where players use GPS and other navigating systems to locate their prize, according to a website devoted to the game.

 

During the investigation, Metra officials halted several inbound and outbound trains, causing delays up to 98 minutes.

[+Totem Clan]

Yet another reason why to stay away from railroad tracks.

 

From the Chicago Tribune- June 1st.

 

Inbound and outbound Metra Union Pacific West Line trains were delayed this afternoon after a suspicious package -- later determined to be a device used in a treasure hunt game -- was discovered hanging over the train tracks, officials said.

 

A passerby found the device suspended by fishing line from the Illinois Prairie Path overpass above the Union Pacific Railroad tracks in Wheaton at about 1:35 p.m., Wheaton officials said.

 

Authorities determined the device was a "geocaching" game piece, officials said. Geocaching is a outdoor treasure hunting game where players use GPS and other navigating systems to locate their prize, according to a website devoted to the game.

 

During the investigation, Metra officials halted several inbound and outbound trains, causing delays up to 98 minutes.

So are you going to ignore my question? Are you afraid to answer or are you just snubbing me?

[Trinity's Crew]

Yet another reason why to stay away from railroad tracks.

 

From the Chicago Tribune- June 1st.

 

Inbound and outbound Metra Union Pacific West Line trains were delayed this afternoon after a suspicious package -- later determined to be a device used in a treasure hunt game -- was discovered hanging over the train tracks, officials said.

 

A passerby found the device suspended by fishing line from the Illinois Prairie Path overpass above the Union Pacific Railroad tracks in Wheaton at about 1:35 p.m., Wheaton officials said.

 

Authorities determined the device was a "geocaching" game piece, officials said. Geocaching is a outdoor treasure hunting game where players use GPS and other navigating systems to locate their prize, according to a website devoted to the game.

 

During the investigation, Metra officials halted several inbound and outbound trains, causing delays up to 98 minutes.

If you are concerned about geocaches causing disruptions why are you only focusing on railroads? Why not ban the sport entirely?

[+Totem Clan]

The guidline has nothing to do with safety. Even if there are no tracks present the cache will not be allowed on Railroad property because to enter railroad property is tresspassing. It is that simple.

 

I have seen a cache archive simply because it was on the railroad right-of-way even though the tracks had been removed years before.

 

Apparently the existance of caches in the spikes that hold rails to ties is proof of the inconsistency of the application of that guidline!

 

The last time I found one of these was on the inside edge of the rails that were located in a decommissioned army base.

Then it wasn't on Railroad property thus proving the case, not proving the inconsistency.

[+Totem Clan]

Yet another reason why to stay away from railroad tracks.

 

From the Chicago Tribune- June 1st.

 

Inbound and outbound Metra Union Pacific West Line trains were delayed this afternoon after a suspicious package -- later determined to be a device used in a treasure hunt game -- was discovered hanging over the train tracks, officials said.

 

A passerby found the device suspended by fishing line from the Illinois Prairie Path overpass above the Union Pacific Railroad tracks in Wheaton at about 1:35 p.m., Wheaton officials said.

 

Authorities determined the device was a "geocaching" game piece, officials said. Geocaching is a outdoor treasure hunting game where players use GPS and other navigating systems to locate their prize, according to a website devoted to the game.

 

During the investigation, Metra officials halted several inbound and outbound trains, causing delays up to 98 minutes.

If you are concerned about geocaches causing disruptions why are you only focusing on railroads? Why not ban the sport entirely?

Or he could just quit trolling the threads.

[+blue_eyedbutterfly]

Yet another reason why to stay away from railroad tracks.

 

From the Chicago Tribune- June 1st.

 

Inbound and outbound Metra Union Pacific West Line trains were delayed this afternoon after a suspicious package -- later determined to be a device used in a treasure hunt game -- was discovered hanging over the train tracks, officials said.

 

A passerby found the device suspended by fishing line from the Illinois Prairie Path overpass above the Union Pacific Railroad tracks in Wheaton at about 1:35 p.m., Wheaton officials said.

 

Authorities determined the device was a "geocaching" game piece, officials said. Geocaching is a outdoor treasure hunting game where players use GPS and other navigating systems to locate their prize, according to a website devoted to the game.

 

During the investigation, Metra officials halted several inbound and outbound trains, causing delays up to 98 minutes.

If you are concerned about geocaches causing disruptions why are you only focusing on railroads? Why not ban the sport entirely?

Or he could just quit trolling the threads.

 

+ 1

[+klipsch49er]

The guidline has nothing to do with safety. Even if there are no tracks present the cache will not be allowed on Railroad property because to enter railroad property is tresspassing. It is that simple.

 

I have seen a cache archive simply because it was on the railroad right-of-way even though the tracks had been removed years before.

 

Apparently the existance of caches in the spikes that hold rails to ties is proof of the inconsistency of the application of that guidline!

 

The last time I found one of these was on the inside edge of the rails that were located in a decommissioned army base.

Then it wasn't on Railroad property thus proving the case, not proving the inconsistency.

 

I said the last time not the "only" time! Forgive me for ebelishing experience in our discussion.

 

Corrected my wording to avoid confusion.

Edited February 10, 2012 by klipsch49er

[+Totem Clan]

The guidline has nothing to do with safety. Even if there are no tracks present the cache will not be allowed on Railroad property because to enter railroad property is tresspassing. It is that simple.

 

I have seen a cache archive simply because it was on the railroad right-of-way even though the tracks had been removed years before.

 

Apparently the existance of caches in the spikes that hold rails to ties is proof of the inconsistency of the application of that guidline!

 

The last time I found one of these was on the inside edge of the rails that were located in a decommissioned army base.

Then it wasn't on Railroad property thus proving the case, not proving the inconsistency.

 

I said the last time not the "only" time! Forgive me for ebelishing experience in our discussion.

 

Corrected my wording to avoid confusion.

Did you NA the others?

[+AneMae]

Yet more media (see below). Just do some google searching, there is lots of this type of story out there.

Cachers need to be responsible to avoid this type of scenario. Unfortunately some people think they can do whatever they wish. They can't.

If I find something that is of concern for public safety, anything that could waste police and EMS resources, or place someone in a dangerous situation, or just plain cause someone serious concern, I will deal with it in an appropriate way. I am very proactive in public safety and my community, Geocaching is now a part of that. Sorry if you don't like it or disagree but that's how I roll. I have found some really great caches. I have also found some very poor ones that show total disregard for the rules and other peoples/community well being. Lets be proactive on these issues for the benefit of the game and community at large.

 

Am I afraid? (as someone has asked)- absolutely not. You should see some of the things I do for a living. Do I assess the risks, take steps to reduce it and move forward- yes, that is my job. I generally apply that to most things in my life, and now Geocaching. This includes pointing out issues as I come across them- just because something has been there for 3 years with no reported issues, does not mean it is OK.

 

Trolling?? Since when is bringing up relevant issues in a community forum considered trolling? You are way off base with that comment and yes, I will just ignore that type of thing in the future.

 

The result of this poorly placed cache was that a portion of Metro-North Railroad had to be shut down for a few hours; employees of Hudson Valley Umbrella Factory were forced to evacuate their building and geocaching was front page news.

 

 

Unfortunately this scenario has occurred repeatedly across the country as documented in over 170 posts on geocaching.com. Here are two more instances:

 

Near Los Angeles International Airport, Los Angeles, California

Log of June 20, 2009: "I found it, went on to the next two and on my way back saw discovered the entire area shut down by the police and bomb squad. As soon as I saw this I approached the police (I figured what had happened) to explain what was going on. I was interviewed, arrested, and fined 10K. BEWARE CACHES NEAR IMPORTANT PLACES!! I certainly will not forget this caching expedition."

 

Metra Union Pacific West Line, Wheaton, Illinois Bookmarked: June 1, 2011

Media story: "trains were delayed this afternoon after a suspicious package, later determined to be a device used in a treasure hunt game, was discovered hanging over the train tracks"

 

Poorly placed caches and caches that look like bombs could land you in a lot of trouble. If you’re interested in hiding your own geocache in the Lower Hudson Valley, or anywhere else for that matter, make sure to read, understand and follow the guidelines of geocaching at geocaching.com. Geocaching can only endure if it is a coordinated effort by all members of the geocaching community.

 

[+Totem Clan]

Yet more media

Yet more dodging the question.

 

 

Are scared of me or something?

 

Answer my questions if you don't have something to hide.

[I!]

So are you going to ignore my question? Are you afraid to answer or are you just snubbing me?

Snubbing, I'd guess. If you need to be lavished with attention then maybe you're on the wrong thread.

[+Moose Mob]

<insert modeartor tone>

 

Things are getting a bit too personal in this thread.

[+AneMae]

Yet more media

Yet more dodging the question.

 

 

Are scared of me or something?

 

Answer my questions if you don't have something to hide.

 

I believe I did address your previous questions- read my last post.

[+Totem Clan]

So are you going to ignore my question? Are you afraid to answer or are you just snubbing me?

Snubbing, I'd guess. If you need to be lavished with attention then maybe you're on the wrong thread.

I just want him to answer one question. That's all. After that he can ignore me to his heart's content.

[+Totem Clan]

I believe I did address your previous questions- read my last post.

No you did not.

 

Answer THIS question.

 

Are you honestly that afraid of everything, or are you just trolling the threads? Please don't ignore this post like you have you two others on the alarmist topics you've started before. I really want to know.

 

Are you that scared of things all of us see every day or are you just trying to stir the pot here in the forum?

[+AneMae]

I believe I did address your previous questions- read my last post.

No you did not.

 

Answer THIS question.

 

Are you honestly that afraid of everything, or are you just trolling the threads? Please don't ignore this post like you have you two others on the alarmist topics you've started before. I really want to know.

 

Are you that scared of things all of us see every day or are you just trying to stir the pot here in the forum?

 

Read my post, it address' your questions. Were done here Totem.

[+Totem Clan]

Think GC for the ingore feature.

[Skippermark]

Rather than closing the thread, I'm going to keep it open in hopes that everyone will stay on topic and that the personal attacks will stop. If not, the thread will be closed and warnings will be given.

 

Before posting, please remember these two important guidelines:

 

2. Forum courtesy: Please treat Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, fellow community members, and guests in these forums with courtesy and respect. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, everyone should be treated respectfully.

 

4. Personal attacks and inflammatory or antagonistic behavior will not be tolerated. If you want to post criticism, please do so constructively. Generalized, vicious or veiled attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

 

Thanks!

[Trinity's Crew]

 

If I find something that is of concern for public safety, anything that could waste police and EMS resources, or place someone in a dangerous situation, or just plain cause someone serious concern, I will deal with it in an appropriate way. I am very proactive in public safety and my community, Geocaching is now a part of that. Sorry if you don't like it or disagree but that's how I roll. I have found some really great caches. I have also found some very poor ones that show total disregard for the rules and other peoples/community well being. Lets be proactive on these issues for the benefit of the game and community at large.

 

I put the one part in bold because most caches have the potential to do that.

[+Mr.Benchmark]

If I find something that is of concern for public safety, anything that could waste police and EMS resources, or place someone in a dangerous situation, or just plain cause someone serious concern, I will deal with it in an appropriate way. I am very proactive in public safety and my community, Geocaching is now a part of that.

 

I think you are vastly overstating the nature of the problems you found on the caches that you noted at the beginning of this thread if you are comparing them to caches that were improperly placed against guidelines that caused bomb scares. Were you to find something like that, certainly you should report it with a NA log, and report it to both the original reviewer, and Groundspeak as well.

 

However, the problems you originally reported in this thread were significantly less serious than this. If you are trying to equate the two - and I apologize if that isn't your intent, but it's how I read it - then you are really assigning much more importance to the issues you noted than they merit, in my opinion.

 

Mingling the little problems you noted in your OP with a bomb scare is going to make people think you are trolling, whether that is your intention or not.

[+L0ne.R]

Re: Rail Road Tracks. I know in the US the rail tracks are considered private property as they are owned and operated by a company, the rule allows the owners to keep people from doing damage or being stupid and getting run over by a train. Obviously it does not keep people from getting run over. I have found more than one hide that was a clever hollowed out spike. Active tracks? Probably since there was no rust on the surface of the rails. I felt in no danger since the tracks had visibility for miles in both direction and my hearing is excellent. I do not attempt caches where my physical limitations would yield a significant risk of injury.

 

The guidline has nothing to do with safety. Even if there are no tracks present the cache will not be allowed on Railroad property because to enter railroad property is tresspassing. It is that simple.

 

I have seen a cache archive simply because it was on the railroad right-of-way even though the tracks had been removed years before.

I agree about the RR right of way. It's apparently sketchy and inconsistent because it boils down to how much property the railroad company owns along any given stretch of rail. But the little I've read on it indicates that it's usually at least 25 feet on either side from the center of the tracks.

 

Having said that, I don't know whether this particular cache is on railroad property and I doubt whether AneMae knows either.

 

Wouldn't that be for a Reviewer to decide? Just because AneMae posts an NA doesn't mean the cache gets archived. It means the Reviewer will have a closer look and contact the CO for more details about how close it is to the railroad tracks. I'm confident that the Ontario Reviewers know what the rules are regarding the Canadian railway right-of-way allowance and will apply them appropriately.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Solitario R

[Trinity's Crew]

Re: Rail Road Tracks. I know in the US the rail tracks are considered private property as they are owned and operated by a company, the rule allows the owners to keep people from doing damage or being stupid and getting run over by a train. Obviously it does not keep people from getting run over. I have found more than one hide that was a clever hollowed out spike. Active tracks? Probably since there was no rust on the surface of the rails. I felt in no danger since the tracks had visibility for miles in both direction and my hearing is excellent. I do not attempt caches where my physical limitations would yield a significant risk of injury.

 

The guidline has nothing to do with safety. Even if there are no tracks present the cache will not be allowed on Railroad property because to enter railroad property is tresspassing. It is that simple.

 

I have seen a cache archive simply because it was on the railroad right-of-way even though the tracks had been removed years before.

I agree about the RR right of way. It's apparently sketchy and inconsistent because it boils down to how much property the railroad company owns along any given stretch of rail. But the little I've read on it indicates that it's usually at least 25 feet on either side from the center of the tracks.

 

Having said that, I don't know whether this particular cache is on railroad property and I doubt whether AneMae knows either.

 

Wouldn't that be for a Reviewer to decide? Just because AneMae posts an NA doesn't mean the cache gets archived. It means the Reviewer will have a closer look and contact the CO for more details about how close it is to the railroad tracks. I'm confident that the Ontario Reviewers know what the rules are regarding the Canadian railway right-of-way allowance and will apply them appropriately.

Agreed. I'm just not sure it needed the NA to begin with.

[+niraD]

Any railroad with rails should be considered an active railroad. Period. Full stop.

Well, at some point, it's probably safe to say that the rails are no longer being used...

 

But yeah, I know of several rail lines that might look unused to some people, but actually see regular use. There may be only 1 train a day, or even 1 train a week, but the rails are still in use.

[+L0ne.R]

Re: Rail Road Tracks. I know in the US the rail tracks are considered private property as they are owned and operated by a company, the rule allows the owners to keep people from doing damage or being stupid and getting run over by a train. Obviously it does not keep people from getting run over. I have found more than one hide that was a clever hollowed out spike. Active tracks? Probably since there was no rust on the surface of the rails. I felt in no danger since the tracks had visibility for miles in both direction and my hearing is excellent. I do not attempt caches where my physical limitations would yield a significant risk of injury.

 

The guidline has nothing to do with safety. Even if there are no tracks present the cache will not be allowed on Railroad property because to enter railroad property is tresspassing. It is that simple.

 

I have seen a cache archive simply because it was on the railroad right-of-way even though the tracks had been removed years before.

I agree about the RR right of way. It's apparently sketchy and inconsistent because it boils down to how much property the railroad company owns along any given stretch of rail. But the little I've read on it indicates that it's usually at least 25 feet on either side from the center of the tracks.

 

Having said that, I don't know whether this particular cache is on railroad property and I doubt whether AneMae knows either.

 

Wouldn't that be for a Reviewer to decide? Just because AneMae posts an NA doesn't mean the cache gets archived. It means the Reviewer will have a closer look and contact the CO for more details about how close it is to the railroad tracks. I'm confident that the Ontario Reviewers know what the rules are regarding the Canadian railway right-of-way allowance and will apply them appropriately.

Agreed. I'm just not sure it needed the NA to begin with.

 

Just curious....I don't know which cache people are referring to....did it get archived?

[+niraD]

Wouldn't that be for a Reviewer to decide? Just because AneMae posts an NA doesn't mean the cache gets archived.

True. But then AneMae (or some other new geocacher on a mission) comes to the forums complaining that their NA logs haven't "been addressed".

 

Perhaps changing NA to Needs Attention (or Needs Reviewer Attention, or Reviewer Attention Needed, or...) would help set expectations more appropriately, in addition to removing some of the stigma associated with reporting real problems.

[+niraD]

If I find something that is of concern for public safety, anything that could waste police and EMS resources, or place someone in a dangerous situation, or just plain cause someone serious concern, I will deal with it in an appropriate way.

I put the one part in bold because most caches have the potential to do that.

Yep. There have been geocache-related bomb scares in remote locations, far from any reasonable terrorist target. There have been geocache-related bomb scares for clear containers, where the contents were plainly visible. You can do your best to avoid such a "waste of police and EMS resources", but you can't prevent it entirely.

[+AneMae]

Re: Rail Road Tracks. I know in the US the rail tracks are considered private property as they are owned and operated by a company, the rule allows the owners to keep people from doing damage or being stupid and getting run over by a train. Obviously it does not keep people from getting run over. I have found more than one hide that was a clever hollowed out spike. Active tracks? Probably since there was no rust on the surface of the rails. I felt in no danger since the tracks had visibility for miles in both direction and my hearing is excellent. I do not attempt caches where my physical limitations would yield a significant risk of injury.

 

The guidline has nothing to do with safety. Even if there are no tracks present the cache will not be allowed on Railroad property because to enter railroad property is tresspassing. It is that simple.

 

I have seen a cache archive simply because it was on the railroad right-of-way even though the tracks had been removed years before.

I agree about the RR right of way. It's apparently sketchy and inconsistent because it boils down to how much property the railroad company owns along any given stretch of rail. But the little I've read on it indicates that it's usually at least 25 feet on either side from the center of the tracks.

 

Having said that, I don't know whether this particular cache is on railroad property and I doubt whether AneMae knows either.

 

Wouldn't that be for a Reviewer to decide? Just because AneMae posts an NA doesn't mean the cache gets archived. It means the Reviewer will have a closer look and contact the CO for more details about how close it is to the railroad tracks. I'm confident that the Ontario Reviewers know what the rules are regarding the Canadian railway right-of-way allowance and will apply them appropriately.

Agreed. I'm just not sure it needed the NA to begin with.

 

Just curious....I don't know which cache people are referring to....did it get archived?

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=479361d9-47f1-497a-af4e-d6c5dee37e6f#

 

Temporarily Disabled by the reviewer. Probably to give the CO a chance to move it away from the tracks and post new coordinates. That would be fine by me.

[+Mr.Benchmark]

http://www.geocachin...e-d6c5dee37e6f#

 

Temporarily Disabled by the reviewer. Probably to give the CO a chance to move it away from the tracks and post new coordinates. That would be fine by me.

 

If the cache can be moved a short distance to correct the problem, why post needs archived, especially since the CO seems to still be active? Why not send the CO an email about the issue? If they don't respond, or don't seem willing to do anything about the problem, then bring the reviewer into it.

 

I don't disagree that the listing in question certainly seems to violate the guidelines, but I question the imminent "safety" concern. If the railroad is especially aggressive about enforcing their right of way (i.e. someone risks prosecution for seeking the cache), that would be a different matter. I think what you did seems somewhat strong for the actual problem, particularly for a listing that has been in place for 3 years.

[+Moose Mob]

<snip>If the cache can be moved a short distance to correct the problem, why post needs archived, especially since the CO seems to still be active? Why not send the CO an email about the issue? If they don't respond, or don't seem willing to do anything about the problem, then bring the reviewer into it.

<snip>

In a case like this, I would recommend that the geocacher post a NA log in these situations and move on. The CO and the Reviewer will see it and should act accordingly.

[+Mr.Benchmark]

In a case like this, I would recommend that the geocacher post a NA log in these situations and move on. The CO and the Reviewer will see it and should act accordingly.

 

Thank you for the clarification.

[+Banjosmom]

Good Morning. I am the cache owner of this "topic" and this is thr first time I will participate in a conversation. I will remove and archive the cache in question as I will the other cache recently complained about. I want everyone to enjoy geocaching and feel safe while doing so. My apologies to those offended by the placement, quality and care of my caches and my thanks to those who have enjoyed finding them.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Banjosmom

[+L0ne.R]

Good Morning. I am the cache owner of this "topic" and this is thr first time I will participate in a conversation. I will remove and archive the cache in question as I will the other cache recently complained about. I want everyone to enjoy geocaching and feel safe while doing so. My apologies to those offended by the placement, quality and care of my caches and my thanks to those who have enjoyed finding them.

 

Banjosmom I understand your initial reaction. But please consider keeping your cache but moving the cache about 50m further away from the railroad tracks. Railway rights-of-way are private property. Many people don't realize this. It's best to keep geocachers away from private property so that the game doesn't suffer from bad publicity. Some muggles who stumble upon an ammo can near tracks may become alarmed and think someone may be attempting to derail trains with a concealed bomb in an ammunition case. Personally, I love ammo can finds and hope to find yours some day. From the photos in the gallery it looks like the area is largely a natural area so hopefully there are some good hiding spots further away from the tracks.

 

I really wish Groundspeak would change Needs Archive to Needs Reviewer Attention. It often upsets cache owners to get an NA.

[Trinity's Crew]

Good Morning. I am the cache owner of this "topic" and this is thr first time I will participate in a conversation. I will remove and archive the cache in question as I will the other cache recently complained about. I want everyone to enjoy geocaching and feel safe while doing so. My apologies to those offended by the placement, quality and care of my caches and my thanks to those who have enjoyed finding them.

 

Banjosmom I understand your initial reaction. But please consider keeping your cache but moving the cache about 50m further away from the railroad tracks. Railway rights-of-way are private property. Many people don't realize this. It's best to keep geocachers away from private property so that the game doesn't suffer from bad publicity. Some muggles who stumble upon an ammo can near tracks may become alarmed and think someone may be attempting to derail trains with a concealed bomb in an ammunition case. Personally, I love ammo can finds and hope to find yours some day. From the photos in the gallery it looks like the area is largely a natural area so hopefully there are some good hiding spots further away from the tracks.

 

I really wish Groundspeak would change Needs Archive to Needs Reviewer Attention. It often upsets cache owners to get an NA.

Banjosmom, I agree. I am not sure how far the RR property rights extend, but it seems a shame to archive your cache. If you could move it another 30 to 40 meters away from the tracks it would probably be fine.

[+J the Goat]

I'm feeling a little wordy this morning so here goes. I'm not proficient with multiple quotey thingys in one post, so bear with my paraphrasing and generalizing of previous posts if you will.

 

First, safety aside, RR caches run into private property issues plain and simple. If you're going to place a cache near a railroad, you need to be the one to do the research and footwork to see if it's on private property. Do you know if permission was granted? Did you ask before making a stink?

 

Dangerous situations aren't a reason to archive a cache. Putting property issues aside, there's no difference between a cache being too close to railroad tracks and a cache being 50 feet up an oak tree, or at the top of a sketchy rock formation. Have you assessed those types of caches in your area for their danger aspect as well? You assess risk for a living, so you should know that there are plenty of other dangerous caches out there too.

 

We just had a local cache archived because it was tucked in at the base of an old, unused railroad "bridge". I use the quotes because while it techically fits the definition of a bridge, it spanned only a small creek that's crossable by foot easily in the winter and by hopping over the whole thing at the end of spring. Tracks have been inactive here for more than 10 years. Still on private property, so bye bye quality cache. Can't complain about it, it was on privat property and that's against the rules without permission.

 

Chill out a bit maybe. Just remember that you aren't aware of all the specifics of a cache such as permission and communication between the reviewer and the CO.

[+zack_black]

*puts a soap box on the ground and steps up onto it*

 

A childhood friend of mine died because he was walking near a set of tracks and wasn't paying attention when a train was going by. He thought he was perfectly safe and far enough away from the train to not be in any danger. He was wrong! Apparently (so the corners report said) a part of the train (a piece of door latch or some other such part) was sticking out much farther that it should have been and smacked him with (with enough force to kill him) in the back of the head. He never saw it coming!

 

Now tell me that it's ok to be only half paying attention to your surroundings because you are constantly looking at an electronic toy in your hands and at the ground and be close to an active set of train tracks where you "think" you are far enough away to be safe.

 

*gets off the soap box, picks it up and walks away*

[+uxorious]

Any railroad with rails should be considered an active railroad. Period. Full stop.

Well, at some point, it's probably safe to say that the rails are no longer being used...

 

But yeah, I know of several rail lines that might look unused to some people, but actually see regular use. There may be only 1 train a day, or even 1 train a week, but the rails are still in use.

 

Not all old tracks are still in use.

 

One of my favorite caches, now archived, was right in the middle of the tracks. The thing is though these tracks had been torn up and removed, both before and after, but for some reason there is a section of old track still left.

 

This is on property that has been designated as Rails to Trails. I'm sure this will someday be removed also, but until then it makes a great find in the forest. :)

 

Edited February 12, 2012 by uxorious

[+dprovan]

Dangerous situations aren't a reason to archive a cache. Putting property issues aside, there's no difference between a cache being too close to railroad tracks and a cache being 50 feet up an oak tree, or at the top of a sketchy rock formation.

The difference is that railroad tracks, while being just as dangerous as the other two, seem benign. In particular, everything's all quiet and still when you start the search, but half an hour later while you're concentrating on that tough (or missing) cache, you might not notice the new thousand ton threat that's suddenly coming at you at 50mph.

 

Now I don't myself know if that's a valid risk assessment, but it's enough to make me consider such a rule reasonable.

[+Moose Mob]

Dangerous situations aren't a reason to archive a cache. Putting property issues aside, there's no difference between a cache being too close to railroad tracks and a cache being 50 feet up an oak tree, or at the top of a sketchy rock formation.

The difference is that railroad tracks, while being just as dangerous as the other two, seem benign. In particular, everything's all quiet and still when you start the search, but half an hour later while you're concentrating on that tough (or missing) cache, you might not notice the new thousand ton threat that's suddenly coming at you at 50mph.

 

Now I don't myself know if that's a valid risk assessment, but it's enough to make me consider such a rule reasonable.

The problem is that there is no way to determine where to draw the line. Geocaches are not allowed near Railroad tracks because of legal issues, not safety. There is no way for reviewers to come up with any consistent way of determining what is 'safe enough' and what isn't. RR tracks, rappelling, hiking in the desert with rattlesnakes and tarantulas, heck.. walking across the street can be unsafe.

 

When you go find a Geocache, you need to be aware of your personal limitations. Not safe? Move along to another one. There are planty Don't leave it to some corporate entity to do it or you'll be back home watching TV all day.

[+Totem Clan]

The problem is that there is no way to determine where to draw the line. Geocaches are not allowed near Railroad tracks because of legal issues, not safety. There is no way for reviewers to come up with any consistent way of determining what is 'safe enough' and what isn't. RR tracks, rappelling, hiking in the desert with rattlesnakes and tarantulas, heck.. walking across the street can be unsafe.

 

When you go find a Geocache, you need to be aware of your personal limitations. Not safe? Move along to another one. There are planty Don't leave it to some corporate entity to do it or you'll be back home watching TV all day.

Let me start by saying I used to jump out aircraft for a living so my 'level of danger' is a bit scewed.

 

The most dangerous cache I have ever seen was in the city in front of the mall. It was on a guardrail around on the stoplight pole on a island in the a main road next to the interstate. I took a look and realized what and where it was and put it on my ignore list.

[Trinity's Crew]

Dangerous situations aren't a reason to archive a cache. Putting property issues aside, there's no difference between a cache being too close to railroad tracks and a cache being 50 feet up an oak tree, or at the top of a sketchy rock formation.

The difference is that railroad tracks, while being just as dangerous as the other two, seem benign. In particular, everything's all quiet and still when you start the search, but half an hour later while you're concentrating on that tough (or missing) cache, you might not notice the new thousand ton threat that's suddenly coming at you at 50mph.

 

Now I don't myself know if that's a valid risk assessment, but it's enough to make me consider such a rule reasonable.

The problem is that there is no way to determine where to draw the line. Geocaches are not allowed near Railroad tracks because of legal issues, not safety. There is no way for reviewers to come up with any consistent way of determining what is 'safe enough' and what isn't. RR tracks, rappelling, hiking in the desert with rattlesnakes and tarantulas, heck.. walking across the street can be unsafe.

 

When you go find a Geocache, you need to be aware of your personal limitations. Not safe? Move along to another one. There are planty Don't leave it to some corporate entity to do it or you'll be back home watching TV all day.

Exactly!! The "danger" aspect is just an attempt to justify the "NA" log.

 

I have no idea whether that particular cache was on railroad property or not. I also have no idea whether the picture posted on the cache page accurately reflected the actual distance from the cache to the tracks. But a satellite view of the area shows that there are yards and outbuildings that are as close to the tracks as this cache so I'm guessing the RR property is pretty narrow along this stretch.

 

Edit: Removed the word desperate. It was antagonistic.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Trinity's Crew

[+jellis]

Yet more media (see below). Just do some google searching, there is lots of this type of story out there.

Cachers need to be responsible to avoid this type of scenario. Unfortunately some people think they can do whatever they wish. They can't.

If I find something that is of concern for public safety, anything that could waste police and EMS resources, or place someone in a dangerous situation, or just plain cause someone serious concern, I will deal with it in an appropriate way. I am very proactive in public safety and my community, Geocaching is now a part of that. Sorry if you don't like it or disagree but that's how I roll. I have found some really great caches. I have also found some very poor ones that show total disregard for the rules and other peoples/community well being. Lets be proactive on these issues for the benefit of the game and community at large.

 

Am I afraid? (as someone has asked)- absolutely not. You should see some of the things I do for a living. Do I assess the risks, take steps to reduce it and move forward- yes, that is my job. I generally apply that to most things in my life, and now Geocaching. This includes pointing out issues as I come across them- just because something has been there for 3 years with no reported issues, does not mean it is OK.

 

Trolling?? Since when is bringing up relevant issues in a community forum considered trolling? You are way off base with that comment and yes, I will just ignore that type of thing in the future.

 

The result of this poorly placed cache was that a portion of Metro-North Railroad had to be shut down for a few hours; employees of Hudson Valley Umbrella Factory were forced to evacuate their building and geocaching was front page news.

 

 

Unfortunately this scenario has occurred repeatedly across the country as documented in over 170 posts on geocaching.com. Here are two more instances:

 

Near Los Angeles International Airport, Los Angeles, California

Log of June 20, 2009: "I found it, went on to the next two and on my way back saw discovered the entire area shut down by the police and bomb squad. As soon as I saw this I approached the police (I figured what had happened) to explain what was going on. I was interviewed, arrested, and fined 10K. BEWARE CACHES NEAR IMPORTANT PLACES!! I certainly will not forget this caching expedition."

 

Metra Union Pacific West Line, Wheaton, Illinois Bookmarked: June 1, 2011

Media story: "trains were delayed this afternoon after a suspicious package, later determined to be a device used in a treasure hunt game, was discovered hanging over the train tracks"

 

Poorly placed caches and caches that look like bombs could land you in a lot of trouble. If you’re interested in hiding your own geocache in the Lower Hudson Valley, or anywhere else for that matter, make sure to read, understand and follow the guidelines of geocaching at geocaching.com. Geocaching can only endure if it is a coordinated effort by all members of the geocaching community.

 

We forget one thing. Yes there has been experienced as well as newbies placing caches on private property, in dangerous situations, disregarding the guidelines set not only by GS but US as concerned cachers.

But also remember that Geocaching.com is not the only caching site. As more are starting out without much sense for guidelines, Geocaching will be taking the blame for some of these other sites caches.

I noticed that one of the other sites is slowly realizing that lack of some guidelines is causing some trouble and are now adding some.

[+J the Goat]

Dangerous situations aren't a reason to archive a cache. Putting property issues aside, there's no difference between a cache being too close to railroad tracks and a cache being 50 feet up an oak tree, or at the top of a sketchy rock formation.

The difference is that railroad tracks, while being just as dangerous as the other two, seem benign. In particular, everything's all quiet and still when you start the search, but half an hour later while you're concentrating on that tough (or missing) cache, you might not notice the new thousand ton threat that's suddenly coming at you at 50mph.

 

Now I don't myself know if that's a valid risk assessment, but it's enough to make me consider such a rule reasonable.

 

A thousand ton threat is easier to see than a timber rattler tucked under some rocks or brown recluse any day

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to point out that the whole "it's too dangerous" argument isn't the right one to be using unless you're going to apply it to any cache with any significant risk. Dangerous means different things to different people, I honestly don't see train tracks as terribly dangerous places if you're paying attention to your surroundings. Either way, the property issues are the real issues here, and really should negate any other arugument. Private property (seemingly without permission), should be moved or removed. Simple.