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long distance puzzle cache


m3hxe
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Hi Guys, Im thinking about placing a puzzle cache that in some stages would require the hunters to visit locations in diffrent towns in order to get clues or to answer questions relating to the location of the cache. Is this allowed? Would I need to list each as a waypoint? How would these waypoints affect the placement of other peoples caches? There would not be a container at urban locations but may be some in the countryside. Also some of the clues would have to be solved online.

 

Make Sence?

 

Simon.

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For a puzzle cache, the final location must be within 2 miles of the published location. Each of the legs should be added as waypoints. If you place something at the location, the waypoint should be a 'stage of a multicache' and this needs to be 528 feet from any other physical stage of any other cache. If you do not place an item at the location, the waypoint should be a 'question to answer' and these are not considered for proximity to other caches.

 

Solving stages on-line is fine provided people do not need to sign up to a website in order to find the cache.

 

Whilst not a requirement, if the puzzle involves some extended travelling, it would be helpful to indicate on the cache page how much travelling is required so potential finders can decided if they want to find the cache or not.

 

If you put the cache into the review queue, your local reviewer can have a look and help you through the process if it is required.

 

Andy

Red Duster

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

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From my own experience, you may have some difficulty overcoming the reverse-proximity rule (my own term) when stages are deemed to be too far apart. I had to split my cache into more than one listing in the end, after failing to sway a Groundspeak appeal. Good luck with your idea; it sounds fun.

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From my own experience, you may have some difficulty overcoming the reverse-proximity rule (my own term) when stages are deemed to be too far apart. I had to split my cache into more than one listing in the end, after failing to sway a Groundspeak appeal. Good luck with your idea; it sounds fun.

 

This is the first time I've heard of such a "guideline", could you elaborate?

 

There used to be a Puzzle Cache in Portsmouth, West Yorkshire, which required you to visit the more well known Town of Portsmouth to obtain the Coords.

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This is the first time I've heard of such a "guideline", could you elaborate?

 

There used to be a Puzzle Cache in Portsmouth, West Yorkshire, which required you to visit the more well known Town of Portsmouth to obtain the Coords.

Basically what Red Duster said above about cache page coordinates and actual cache location being within 2 miles; plus, it was confirmed to me by a Groundspeak Rep that there is "a 2 mile maximum between stages" (which is a slightly different variation, e.g. think of two stages 4 miles apart, with dummy posted coordinates halfway between, which may satisfy one condition but not the other). I have found one or two (excellent) caches that required travelling some distance between physical stages (although not as far as your Portsmouth example!), so, as ever, YMMV!

 

What I would advise to the OP is to get all the rules and regulations agreed with your Reviewer before finalising all the stages, to minimise re-work if it turns out that the format has to be re-configured. Fortunately, for example, I was able to turn my original single Puzzle cache listing into two related Puzzle cache listings.

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From my own experience, you may have some difficulty overcoming the reverse-proximity rule (my own term) when stages are deemed to be too far apart. I had to split my cache into more than one listing in the end, after failing to sway a Groundspeak appeal. Good luck with your idea; it sounds fun.

I've never heard of that one. Would a reviewer like to confirm?

My understanding was that mystery caches with a final location further than a couple of miles from the dummy coordinates were refused on the grounds that it messed with a trackable's mileage by too great an amount. For example, it could be that a trackable appears to visit the north of Scotland and travel 500 miles when it actually only went a mile across Manchester.

That doesn't seem to apply to stages being far apart, assuming that the stages take you on a circular route. It would stifle creativity if that rule was applied as abanazar understands it.

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Must have changed since I was reviewing. We used to insist the published coordinates were within a couple of miles of the final location (to maintain TB's mileage) but the stages could be miles apart, even at the opposite ends of the country. I remember one or two where they were on different continents but you were recommended to enlist the help of a foreign geocacher to complete them!! :blink:

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The Guidelines state:

 

A multi-cache can have stages 100 feet apart, or 100 miles apart. The distance between stages of a single cache is limited only by the owner's ability to maintain those stages.

 

However, I know from experience that just because the Guidelines say something it's not necessarily what they mean :blink:

 

 

Mark

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Back to the OP's original question. Is this the sort of cache that you personally would like to do?

 

I suspect that once it's been found by a few local cachers no one else would bother attempting it

 

 

 

Mark

[Edited for spelling]

Edited by Delta68
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Since the actual location of puzzle caches is available as an additional waypoint why is this not used for trackable distance calculations. This would allow the declared co-ordinates to be as bogus as the puzzle setter requires them to be.

I guess that then it would be possible to triangulate the puzzle location somewhat by looking at the relative distances travelled by all the TBs that have been through the cache.

 

and the GZ would show up on the TB maps.

Edited by MartyBartfast
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Must have changed since I was reviewing.

You're not that far out of the loop :laughing:

 

Provided the final is within 2 miles of the published coordinates, the stages can be a far away as you like. Just play nice and tell people what to expect in terms of distances involved. :P

 

Andy

Red Duster

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

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Thanks Peeps! Please keep the discusion going. At the moment this is just an idea that I had at the weekend.It would most likely involve visiting a single town and locations in that town somewere here in the south east (dont want to give too much away just yet)!

 

I still have a lot of thinking and constructing to do yet.

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I have an active (at the moment **) cache that meets Red Duster's criteria but to complete it, you'll have to cross a county boundary 5 times, visit over a dozen locations and probably drive over 200 miles.

 

** but due to a serious lack of interest (surprise, surprise), it will probably be archived in the not-too-distant future. The maintenance overheads just too high :( .

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** but due to a serious lack of interest (surprise, surprise), it will probably be archived in the not-too-distant future. The maintenance overheads just too high :( .

Not Your Mission.........., I hope?

 

Undoubtedly the best, most enjoyable, most challenging yet achievable cache I've done or heard about. Archiving it would deprive caching of one of its greatest assets.

 

If it's not "Your Mission.........." then which is it? Sounds good :).

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** but due to a serious lack of interest (surprise, surprise), it will probably be archived in the not-too-distant future. The maintenance overheads just too high :( .

Not Your Mission.........., I hope?

 

Undoubtedly the best, most enjoyable, most challenging yet achievable cache I've done or heard about. Archiving it would deprive caching of one of its greatest assets.

 

If it's not "Your Mission.........." then which is it? Sounds good :).

 

Nice of you to say so, Alan... Thank you. :)

Unfortunately, the geocaching 'fashion' has evolved and very few are now prepared to spend a whole weekend geocaching for just one 'smiling face'. I'll leave it, and one or two of my other more difficult / unpopular caches out until the summer then lay them to rest, a sacrifice to the great god 'Numbers'. :(

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the stages could be miles apart, even at the opposite ends of the country. I remember one or two where they were on different continents but you were recommended to enlist the help of a foreign geocacher to complete them!! :blink:

 

Quite right. I have stage 2 of a three stage that starts and ends in Alabama. There is also a round the world multi cache that starts and ends not far from me in Dorset. There are probably dozens of caches like this.

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Provided the final is within 2 miles of the published coordinates ...

Huh, then this should likely never have been published.

This is about Mystery caches, not multis, although it's an interesting point that multicaches aren't subject to the same rule. And the cache you highlight appears to be a multi / mystery hybrid, so I don't envy the reviewer trying to make a decision on that one!

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Must have changed since I was reviewing.

You're not that far out of the loop :laughing:

 

Provided the final is within 2 miles of the published coordinates, the stages can be a far away as you like. Just play nice and tell people what to expect in terms of distances involved. :P

 

Andy

Red Duster

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

Can the stages of a multicache take you to further than 2 miles from the listed coordinates (ie the first stage?).

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Can the stages of a multicache take you to further than 2 miles from the listed coordinates (ie the first stage?).

 

The Guidelines say 'yes' but it's up to the reviewer really.

(or Groundspeak if you decide to appeal)

 

There are some older Multis which have stages spanning the world

 

 

Mark

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Can the stages of a multicache take you to further than 2 miles from the listed coordinates (ie the first stage?).

 

The Guidelines say 'yes' but it's up to the reviewer really.

(or Groundspeak if you decide to appeal)

 

There are some older Multis which have stages spanning the world

 

 

Mark

It would seem odd for a reviewer to ignore the guidelines (rules), wouldn't it? We've complained enough when reviewers have been over-zealous (as we see it) on applying some rules (such as the infamous Camping Visitors rule and the "commercial cache" rule. It would be bizarre if they have their own unwritten rule which disallows what looks like a perfectly sound cache design.

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Thanks Peeps! Please keep the discusion going. At the moment this is just an idea that I had at the weekend.It would most likely involve visiting a single town and locations in that town somewere here in the south east (dont want to give too much away just yet)!

 

I still have a lot of thinking and constructing to do yet.

 

Just consider how google street view could be used to complete your cache. If you are planning a cache that requires the cacher to visit both locations, or team up with other cachers in the other town to get information. That information may be viewable in google street view, making your cache easier than intended.

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The 2 mile rule only applies to Puzzle/Mystery/unknown types. Multis are not included :)

 

This makes sense in one respect but not in another. If you are going to visit an area it helps to know where the caches are and you don't want to spend hours solving a puzzle only to find it's 50 miles away :unsure:

 

A Mutli should already be starting at the listed co-ordinates.

 

The difference in the 'guidelines' doesn't make sense when they say it's to keep mileage accurate on trackables. Can't help thinking that reason was just was tacked on afterwards... :blink:

 

Mark

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Provided the final is within 2 miles of the published coordinates, the stages can be a far away as you like. Just play nice and tell people what to expect in terms of distances involved. :P

 

Andy

Red Duster

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

 

I have a similar question/problem.

 

In my case - my cache is a Wherigo. Now the guidelines I have found about Wherigos don't say anything about needing to be within 2 miles of the posted coordinates.

 

My problem: I've designed the Wherigo around a park, and have spent weeks creating it. I had a place in mind for the final, and created the page weeks ago (with the hope of saving the spot), but now that I have requested it be enabled I find I'm too close to a Unknown cache.

 

My first choice will be to find an alternate location in the park (within 2 miles); but the park is pretty saturated and I'm not sure I will be able to.

 

I don't want to move the Wherigo itself, as it was designed specifically to fit the location, and the story makes use of various features in the park: Mansion, island, cave, graveyard, pond, etc. But if need be, the final cache could be anywhere. The Wherigo itself doesn't have any physical stages (other than the final cache). Basically when you get to the last stage of the Wherigo, you are given the location of the final.

 

So: My questions:

 

1. Could I leave the posted coordinates as they are (parking area of the park), have the game in the park, but the final more than 2 miles away? I.e. are Wherigos subject to the same 2 mile restriction as an Unknown/Puzzle or not?

 

2. Alternatively: Let's say I move the final to be 5 miles away from the park. Could I have the dummy posted coordinates close to the final, but the first stage of the Wherigo be 5 miles away (in the park)?

 

Mark

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** but due to a serious lack of interest (surprise, surprise), it will probably be archived in the not-too-distant future. The maintenance overheads just too high :( .

Not Your Mission.........., I hope?

 

Undoubtedly the best, most enjoyable, most challenging yet achievable cache I've done or heard about. Archiving it would deprive caching of one of its greatest assets.

 

If it's not "Your Mission.........." then which is it? Sounds good :).

 

Nice of you to say so, Alan... Thank you. :)

Unfortunately, the geocaching 'fashion' has evolved and very few are now prepared to spend a whole weekend geocaching for just one 'smiling face'. I'll leave it, and one or two of my other more difficult / unpopular caches out until the summer then lay them to rest, a sacrifice to the great god 'Numbers'. :(

 

Your Mission.... being archived would be such a loss to geocaching, and I would encourage everyone to attempt it, even the number chasers. As you say, it involves a lot of travel to several different areas, so if spread out over 2 of 3 weekends (there are 'natural breaks') then it gives plenty of others areas to search to get more caches. I know I left it for a long time before searching for it, but after hearing about it (from Alibags) I was glad I saved it for a milestone cache (#2000).

 

My greatest disappointment is that I can't do it again, without knowing what is ahead, and that I was only allowed to give it one favourite point - it's worth a lot more. That one smiley face gave me much more satisfaction than if I were to get FTFs on all of a 20 cache series.

 

PS. Sorry for going OT

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.....

 

My problem: I've designed the Wherigo around a park, and have spent weeks creating it. I had a place in mind for the final, and created the page weeks ago (with the hope of saving the spot), but now that I have requested it be enabled I find I'm too close to a Unknown cache.

....

 

 

The moral is to always find any Multis or Unknowns in the area before placing a new cache! :rolleyes:

 

How close is too close?

 

I wrote a Wherigo which I knew the final was too close to the final of a Multi (it was our Multi as well)

It got rejected by the reviewer but I appealed and it got published.

Although the finals were just under 0.1m apart, you would have had to clamber through a hawthorn hedge and over a barbed fence to get there :)

 

Back to the original question; I don't think anyone would be too chuffed if they completed a Wherigo and then had to travel five miles to find the final :blink:

 

 

Mark

Edited by Delta68
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Mark,

 

Thanks for your post.

 

I had found all the caches in the area EXCEPT two 5-star difficulty puzzles which I've been unable to solve. The one which I believe I am conflicting with has had only 2 finds since being launched. I would have found them if I could!

 

Currently, where my ammo box is sitting, is approx 200 feet from the "problem" cache. Obviously too close.

 

Depending on where the other cache actually is, there MAY be a small area which is far enough away, but doesn't get to close to the next cache. But it will be hit and miss as I don't know exactly where the other cache is.

 

There is one other possibility in the park, but I think that might be where the second puzzle-I-can't-solve is. I've asked my reviewer to check the coordinates for me.

 

I don't think there are any other appropriate locations in the park.

 

As a plan B, I'm looking at a location which is about 3.5 miles away from the park for the final. You would need to drive there. If I do this I would make it clear in the cache page, but you are right far less people will do it (and not many people will do it to begin with!).

 

Plan C would be to move the entire Wherigo to the new location. There is enough space there to play it; it is a large wood. But I would need to make significant changes, as it currently makes use of the park. Not only locations which fit the story, but for example you need the name off of a grave in the churchyard. I could make it work, but it won't be as good.

 

Plan D is to give up, and never make the cache available.

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Plan D is to give up, and never make the cache available.

Plan E is to put it on opencaching.org.uk in it's original location - we recommend caches are not placed near those on another site where there is a realistic chance of the wrong cache being found, but it's up to you to use your common sense regarding that, there isn't a fixed minimum.

 

But I realise that's still tricky if you don't know where the other one actually is.

 

And might there be a problem with Wherigo on any site other than Groundspeak? The Wherigo "player" programs are freely available on Oregon, iPhone, etc., but do Groundspeak have any sort of legitimate control over the use of the format?

 

Rgds, Andy

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... Plan D is to give up, and never make the cache available...

 

If I got to Plan D because of Groundspeak proximities/whatever, rather than scrap all the good work that you've already done (it sounds like it's all finished and placed), as a Plan E I would publish it on open*******.org.uk. Yes you will get (even) fewer visitors (but you would get at least one ;)). I speak from direct experience. Good luck however you proceed Mark :)

 

Edited: sorry, I drafted this reply before seeing Andy's response ...

Edited by abanazar
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Thanks Andy and abanazar. I've not entered the open****** world, so didn't consider that. I would prefer to have it on geocaching.com as a Wherigo cache.

 

If Plan A (find a space in the park) doesn't work out, I'm leaning towards plan B - keep the Wherigo in the park; have the final in a separate location a few miles away. It will get less finds than if it was all in the park, but maybe still more than on open****. And as Wherigo is a Groundspeak thing I don't want to risk any issues.

 

Assuming that is legal to have a Wherigo final 3.5 from the posted coordinates.... OR if it is legal to have the Wherigo start 3.5 miles from the posted coordiantes....

 

I've sent an email to the owner who I think owns the puzzle cache, asking if he can work with me to see if there is space between it and the next cache (which is also from the same owner if I have guessed correctly). Maybe I'll find a space to squeeze it in the park.

 

Mark

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... as a Plan E I would publish it on open*******.org.uk. Yes you will get (even) fewer visitors (but you would get at least one ;)). I speak from direct experience.

I guess that on at least one of your OpenCaches, it was the Groundspeak proximity rule that did for you :laughing: . Which rather goes to show how inflexible rules result in strange anomalies - while they are not actually that far apart, the journey between them is long and exceedingly arduous :lol: .

 

Most OpenCaches, while not approaching Groundspeak's popularity, do get more visits than yours. Similarly to Mark's Wherigo, your "market" is double restricted by the relatively small number of cachers with the inclination and capability for what is a specialist cache type.

 

Rgds, Andy

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Ok... to reply to my own post, on a thread I hijacked.. (apologies!)..

 

I (physically) moved my final container of my Wherigo just now. It is in a place which shows as just about the minimum distance to the nearest known cache, and also to approximately where the unknown cache is. It is right on the park boundary - so I can't move it further away; and any movement along the boundary will make it closer to one of the 2 existing caches.

 

I will resubmit it.... then fingers crossed it will be allowed.

 

If not - then I have decided I will do "Plan G".

 

While there is no other place I can find to hide my ammo box, I was able to find a place in the park where I can hide a micro (baring some other unknown cache I've missed!). So Plan F is to make the final a micro. But a micro seems lame for a multi stage Wherigo... also the story is all about finding treasure, and I had kids in mind... I want them to find my ammo box stocked with swag.

 

So then came Plan G. That is to make it 2 Wherigo caches; using the one game. One cache in the park - a micro. Posted coordinates are for nearby parking. The ammo box, in a wood 3.5 miles away. Posted coordinates will be parking for the wood. Change the Wherigo, such that it leads you to the micro - story being that the heroes of the story moved the treasure for safety, but left you a clue, and a place to sign. This is the micro. Find it, sign the log, get the smiley in the park - but also it will bring up a new stage which brings you to the wood, for the ammo box - a sort of bonus cache.

 

It's not perfect, but:

- It means I keep the Wherigo in the park, where it fits

- It means the players can get a smiley without leaving the park

- They can get a second smiley and find the large box if they wish.

 

Mark

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Currently, where my ammo box is sitting, is approx 200 feet from the "problem" cache. Obviously too close.

Actually there is no RULE to say you can't place your cache there. A GUIDELINE exists to prevent oversaturation of a particular area and to prevent accidental confusion between 2 caches.

 

I would suggest that as you have put in so much effort into creating an exceptional experience and the fact that the "essence" of the other Unknown cache is some distance away and cannot in any way be confused when mapping them out then the reviewer could use their discretion and allow this as an exception. Indeed, 200ft is still some distance away although clearly within the normal exclusion radius.

 

Guidelines are meant to GUIDE and reviewers are meant to use their experience and discretion. They are good people who want the best for caching and cachers and should not be confused with inflexible jobsworths.

Edited by The Hornet
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Guidelines are meant to GUIDE and reviewers are meant to use their experience and discretion. They are good people who want the best for caching and cachers and should not be confused with inflexible jobsworths.

 

I hope you are right!!

 

I have already moved the cache; so now it should be at least 500 feet from the Unknown cache - but as I only have an approx location I can't be sure if it is 528 feet. Hopefully it will be close enough for my reviewer.

 

Fingers crossed!

 

Mark

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A happy ending for me. My second attempt to hide the cache in the park clashed with the other 5 star puzzle I had not solved. But my reviewer (La Lunatica) was VERY helpful, and pointed me to an area where it would be allowed. And I was able to find a good hiding place there.

 

It does mean a bit more of a walk; but it is a nice walk, and this is not a cache and dash anyway.

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A happy ending for me. My second attempt to hide the cache in the park clashed with the other 5 star puzzle I had not solved. But my reviewer (La Lunatica) was VERY helpful, and pointed me to an area where it would be allowed. And I was able to find a good hiding place there.

 

It does mean a bit more of a walk; but it is a nice walk, and this is not a cache and dash anyway.

Excellent, well done :lol: .

 

Rgds, Andy

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