when are cemeteries off limits?

[+WeMightBeGiants]

So, I got a FTF in a cemetery in northeast Indiana & I found it just after dawn but before actual sunrise. The cache owner says my FTF shouldn't count because I found it before sunrise. I did some research & so far I have found that the general rule of thumb for caching in cemeteries is allowed between dawn & dusk. Nothing is said about waiting til sunrise. Anybody got any useful info on this topic? Any links that I can copy to an email for the cache owner to back up my findings & research? Any info would be helpful & appreciated. Thank you very much in advance.

[knowschad]

So, I got a FTF in a cemetery in northeast Indiana & I found it just after dawn but before actual sunrise. The cache owner says my FTF shouldn't count because I found it before sunrise. I did some research & so far I have found that the general rule of thumb for caching in cemeteries is allowed between dawn & dusk. Nothing is said about waiting til sunrise. Anybody got any useful info on this topic? Any links that I can copy to an email for the cache owner to back up my findings & research? Any info would be helpful & appreciated. Thank you very much in advance.

 

What are the regulations for that particular cemetery and/or local laws? I suspect the cache owner may be more aware of those than you are. You may want to ask him for the research you are looking for.

 

Edited to add: Odds are, the cache owner simply wants you to remove the time from your publicly visible log. There is no reason for that information anyway, if your name is the first one on the log.

Edited February 3, 2012 by knowschad

[+dphickey]

Does the cemetery have posted hours? Does the cache page refer to limited hours? I would imagine that it would be the same as any other location like a park or conservation area. If you respect the posted hours of operation then the land manager/authority will not get upset by the cache being on the property. Keeping the people in charge of the places the caches are hidden is important for the longevity of the game.

[+Ms.Scrabbler]

So, I got a FTF in a cemetery in northeast Indiana & I found it just after dawn but before actual sunrise. The cache owner says my FTF shouldn't count because I found it before sunrise. I did some research & so far I have found that the general rule of thumb for caching in cemeteries is allowed between dawn & dusk. Nothing is said about waiting til sunrise. Anybody got any useful info on this topic? Any links that I can copy to an email for the cache owner to back up my findings & research? Any info would be helpful & appreciated. Thank you very much in advance.

Anyone that gets up before dawn in the winter in Indiana deserves a FTF no matter what!

 

Did the CO post the local laws or was there a sign with hours?

Not sure about the one you went to but I've found some in Indiana cemeteries and most were among crops, no fence or gate or sign. Can't see that kind would be a problem to go to before dawn (unless you are chicken)

[+cx1]

Does the cemetery have posted hours? Does the cache page refer to limited hours? I would imagine that it would be the same as any other location like a park or conservation area. If you respect the posted hours of operation then the land manager/authority will not get upset by the cache being on the property. Keeping the people in charge of the places the caches are hidden is important for the longevity of the game.

Excellent points.

I would also add that since we do not know the particular cache or cemetery it would be difficult to impossible to aide you with fighting with the cache owner.

Personally to avoid these types of things I have found it easiest to only go to cemeteries at either their posted hours of operation or if those are not available then between sunrise and sunset. The less then 30 minutes between the beginning dawn and sunrise is not too long to wait. I can empathize if your schedule would not allow you to wait that brief period but I don't think the FTF is worth risking making the cemetery off limits for caching.

[+JL_HSTRE]

If neither the cache page nor postings at the cemetery mentioned limited hours of access, I don't see why you couldn't go in the middle of the night. Unless local laws say you can't be in cemeteries after dark and that should be posted.

 

And FWIW before this I've never heard of a quibble over anything regarding dawn vs sunrise - in regards to geocaching or anything else. Sounds absurdly nitpicky, whether for FTF or even being ticketed by a police officer.

[knowschad]

Regardless of what laws may or may not be applicable, at the very least, the cache owner was concerned about how geocaching and geocachers might be perceived, and I find that admirable. You say that you were there in the brief time between dusk and "legal" sunrise, and I get that. But put yourself in the shoes of a LEO or a citizen out for an early morning walk that happens to see somebody "lurking" around the barely light cemetery. Consider that they know nothing about geocaching. Even as a geocacher, that would probably at least cause me to look closer to see if you were holding a GPS.

[+WeMightBeGiants]

I rechecked the cache page (GC3BWY6, for those of you who live in or near NE Indiana) just to make sure and the attributes listed include No Night Caching & Not Available 24/7, however, there were no hours posted on the page or at the cemetery. I DO remember that about the cemetery. I know that most people generally stay out of cemeteries at night just out of respect I guess you'd say, but I also know from reading lots of logs on cache pages that many people like to cache at night, including in cemeteries. If the attributes prohibit caching at night, I respect that. I won't go find that cache til daylight.

I have scoured the Geocaching website & haven't yet been able to find anything that tells me I can't cache in a cemetery at night, unless otherwise posted. I'm beginning to think that cache owners are the ones trying to dictate when a cache can be accessed even if it's available 24/7. I was hoping someone could put it in black & white for me about caching in these places.

FYI, there was no fence or gate nor any sign that I could see anywhere in the cemetery.

[+cerberus1]

Less than a fifteen minute window from when you grabbed the find and "actual" dawn time doesn't seem like that much of an issue.

What may have moved the CO to respond was a whiney log afterwards, stating,"I arrived at the location to see someone walking out. I guess sunrise to sunset rules don't apply for Indiana cemeteries???".

[+niraD]

There is no general rule for all cemeteries everywhere. I've been in cemeteries that were open 24/7. I've been in cemeteries that were open dawn to dusk. I've been in cemeteries that were open only certain hours (e.g., 10am-6pm). It depends on the cemetery.

 

One thing that may be applicable is the terms of use, which include: "You agree not to: [...] (i) Violate any applicable local, state, national or international law."

[+Walts Hunting]

As long add he leaves the log you can still claim ftf since there are no controls over what you do. It is still in your private stats

[+hzoi]

Might be a good opportunity to educate the cache owner on nautical twilight.

[+Ms.Scrabbler]

Might be a good opportunity to educate the cache owner on nautical twilight.

The logs on this cache make it look like it was the whiners that didn't get FTF that caused the big to-do over it. some posts seem a bit rude to me.

It's not like the OP jumped out of bed to get it, he said he was on his way home from work.

Since there was no fence or sign on this on, I don't think it's a big deal. I have no idea what the laws are around here but a sign on a gate would keep me out.

[+SwineFlew]

Just before sunrise? Oh geez? Its not like it was found at 3am.

 

Need to give a little room around the sunrise and sunset rule and the CO was trying to control it with a iron fist.

[+farrtom]

Not to stir the pot (well maybe just a little) but unless there is a sign with the hours of operation at the cemetery I wouldn't know what the rules are. Our local cemetery has them posted at every entrance.

I just did a quick internet search and did not find any Indiana state laws about hours of operation for cemeteries. There might be some local laws, but again unless they are posted some where how are you to know what they are.

[Mr.Yuck]

Might be a good opportunity to educate the cache owner on nautical twilight.

The logs on this cache make it look like it was the whiners that didn't get FTF that caused the big to-do over it. some posts seem a bit rude to me.

It's not like the OP jumped out of bed to get it, he said he was on his way home from work.

Since there was no fence or sign on this on, I don't think it's a big deal. I have no idea what the laws are around here but a sign on a gate would keep me out.

 

Yeah, sour grapes from FTF wannabee's, to be honest.

 

Now for the controversy, and where I believe it came from. OK, this is Indiana. Aren't most cemetery caches in Indiana part of the Indiana Spirit Quest? These usually have pretty nice cache pages which use HTML, and have a template you're supposed to use. In the case of this cache owner, they used no HTML at all, so maybe making it a spirit quest cache was beyond their abilities, but maybe they "based" it on the "rules" listed on every ISQ cache page. From the ISQ account profile:

 

5. NIGHT CACHING – Visiting ISQ cemeteries from Dusk to Dawn is forbidden and we note that on the cache page. We delete find logs that indicate night caching. We disturb nothing, trash out non-decorative items and do not move or take rubbings of tombstones. We strictly obey all posted cemetery regulations.

 

And a typical ISQ cache page, and you can find the part about forbidding night caching:

 

http://coord.info/gc1cw73

[+secretagentbill]

If you look at the logs on the cache and the actual sunrise time, we're talking like 10 minutes... At that time it's already light and I wouldn't think anybody would squabble. Logs were a funny read though.

[+hzoi]

The logs on this cache make it look like it was the whiners that didn't get FTF that caused the big to-do over it.

I agree. The guy who just missed the FTF has, what, 328 FTFs listed in his profile. Sounds like sour grapes.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

FWIW, many jurisdictions have laws in place regarding cemetery "visits". In Michigan, it is worded as Dawn/Dusk.

 

Just so everyone knows, Dawn ≠ sunrise and likewise, Dusk ≠ sunset. Generally, there is 1/2 hour difference between the two.

[knowschad]

I'd sure like to know where the cache owner found the "rule" about sunrise that he posted in the note on the cache page. It may well be true, but I sure can't find it, at least not as a state law. Of course, there could be local laws that apply to the Vieberg Chapel Cemetery, but I can't find anything online about any special rules there, either.

 

Indiana Cemetery Law

Vieberg Chapel Cemetery search

[+Manville Possum]

Virginia Cemetery Law states: § 18.2-125. Trespass at night upon any cemetery.

 

If any person, without the consent of the owner, proprietor or custodian, go or enter in the nighttime, upon the premises, property, driveways or walks of any cemetery, either public or private, for any purpose other than to visit the burial lot or grave of some member of his family, he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

 

(Code 1950, § 18.1-181; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)

[knowschad]

Virginia Cemetery Law states: § 18.2-125. Trespass at night upon any cemetery.

 

If any person, without the consent of the owner, proprietor or custodian, go or enter in the nighttime, upon the premises, property, driveways or walks of any cemetery, either public or private, for any purpose other than to visit the burial lot or grave of some member of his family, he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

 

(Code 1950, § 18.1-181; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)

 

Ahhh... good catch! I stand corrected. Thanks.

 

Edit: Wait... no I don't! What has Virginia got to do with this? The cache in question is in Indiana.

Edited February 3, 2012 by knowschad

[+Manville Possum]

Virginia Cemetery Law states: § 18.2-125. Trespass at night upon any cemetery.

 

If any person, without the consent of the owner, proprietor or custodian, go or enter in the nighttime, upon the premises, property, driveways or walks of any cemetery, either public or private, for any purpose other than to visit the burial lot or grave of some member of his family, he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

 

(Code 1950, § 18.1-181; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)

 

Ahhh... good catch! I stand corrected. Thanks.

 

Edit: Wait... no I don't! What has Virginia got to do with this? The cache in question is in Indiana.

As best as I can tell several States have the same or similar § 18.2-125 Law. Indinia may be one of them.

[+Lil Devil]

And even if that does apply, you'd have to find out if they define "nighttime" as sunset-to-sunrise or dusk-to-dawn

[knowschad]

Virginia Cemetery Law states: § 18.2-125. Trespass at night upon any cemetery.

 

If any person, without the consent of the owner, proprietor or custodian, go or enter in the nighttime, upon the premises, property, driveways or walks of any cemetery, either public or private, for any purpose other than to visit the burial lot or grave of some member of his family, he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

 

(Code 1950, § 18.1-181; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)

 

Ahhh... good catch! I stand corrected. Thanks.

 

Edit: Wait... no I don't! What has Virginia got to do with this? The cache in question is in Indiana.

As best as I can tell several States have the same or similar § 18.2-125 Law. Indinia may be one of them.

And many states have different laws. I posted a link to Indiana's, and I could find nothing regarding times of day for visiting. It may be there, but if so, I missed it.

[+Manville Possum]

Virginia Cemetery Law states: § 18.2-125. Trespass at night upon any cemetery.

 

If any person, without the consent of the owner, proprietor or custodian, go or enter in the nighttime, upon the premises, property, driveways or walks of any cemetery, either public or private, for any purpose other than to visit the burial lot or grave of some member of his family, he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

 

(Code 1950, § 18.1-181; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)

 

Ahhh... good catch! I stand corrected. Thanks.

 

Edit: Wait... no I don't! What has Virginia got to do with this? The cache in question is in Indiana.

As best as I can tell several States have the same or similar § 18.2-125 Law. Indinia may be one of them.

And many states have different laws. I posted a link to Indiana's, and I could find nothing regarding times of day for visiting. It may be there, but if so, I missed it.

I missed your post and searched that same site and a few others. I can't find it for sure either. But if it were me the CO would never know what time I signed the log, and I would waited until the second to find logged their find. I hate being FTF, and I know that others enjoy it, so I never try and be FTF. Leave it to the Hounds. Truth is I'm a better tracker than I am at finding geocaches.

[langcjl]

It says right in the description, dawn to dusk. You found it after the dawn and then the CO makes a point about sunrise. The CO wrote the part about dawn to dusk.

[+Notmykl]

I think it comes down to the CO's and the Finder's definition of dawn and sunrise. To me dawn and sunrise are synonymous. What is dawn? That's when the sunrises. If the Finder found the cache within the rules of the cemetary the CO and grumpy-wanna-be-FTF are SOL.

[+secretagentbill]

I think it comes down to the CO's and the Finder's definition of dawn and sunrise. To me dawn and sunrise are synonymous. What is dawn? That's when the sunrises. If the Finder found the cache within the rules of the cemetary the CO and grumpy-wanna-be-FTF are SOL.

Dawn is when it starts to get light. Sunrise is when the sun shows up. Likewise, dusk is the time between sunset when it actually gets 'dark'.

 

dawn/dôn/

Noun:

The first appearance of light in the sky before sunrise: "the rose-pink light of dawn".

[+briansnat]

The cache owner says my FTF shouldn't count because I found it before sunrise.

 

Silliest thing I've heard in some time. You're the FTF period. Anybody who found it after you couldn't possibly be FTF because they didn't find it first.

 

The owner can express his displeasure at your finding it outside legal hours (if that is what you did), but he has no power to roll back time and change the order of who found it when.

Edited February 7, 2012 by briansnat

[+Mr.Benchmark]

According to the USNO, the civil twilight for Fort Wayne Indiana began at 7:22AM on Feb 2, the day you found the cache. You posted a time of 7:38AM for the find. Since civil twilight was well underway at that point, the Cache Owner doesn't have a leg to stand on. You were there well after dawn. Sunrise wasn't until 7:51AM.

 

Nautical twilight was at 6:49AM, and Astronomical twilight began at 6:17AM.

 

Even if the rule was "sunrise" (and that isn't what the CO stated - he said "dawn"), you were pretty close to that too.

 

edit:

 

Noticed this in the cache listing, and it amused me:

Cemetery hours are Dawn to dusk unless posted.

 

How could the hider not know whether or not it was posted differently? It seems axiomatic that he was there, so I guess he wasn't too observant...

Edited February 8, 2012 by Mr.Benchmark

[joesdolphins]

Caching in a cemetery after hours is your own risk. I don't think a lodging should be deleted. Cache at your own risk.

[+jellis]

the other issue besides the time is where in the cemetery. When I placed one of mine(won't mention where) the first thing the reviewer asked me was, am placing it near the headstones? I know some cachers have been but I can see why the reviewer would asked it. I had already figured by headstones would not be a good thing so I had placed mine on fences and trees, not near the headstones.

[+Afterburned]

FTF is not recognised by Groundspeak. Put what you want on your profile page, you don't need the CO's permission.

If the log is deleted appeal to Groundspeak, use the evidence that others have gathered for dawn.

 

Get back to enjoying caching and forget this experience!

[+klipsch49er]

It is amazing how many COs are described in the forum so negatively. Has anyone invited the CO to comment on this thread? Someone could send him the link to the thread and get his thinkingon this. It would be very interesting indeed!

 

In my home area FTFs are VERY competitive with one player in particular quite capable and dedicated enough to beat you there unless you trek out 2 minutes after a cache is listed, rain or shine, light or dark. Haven't noticed any new hides in any cemetaries locally.

 

To comment directly to the thread. Anyone planting a cache with restricted hours has to know that someone will attempt the find when they shouldn't. It seems to be human nature that the rule don't apply to everyone all the time. That is the risk of cemetary type caches and I have seen my share of DNFs in those locatons.

[+Totem Clan]

It is amazing how many COs are described in the forum so negatively. Has anyone invited the CO to comment on this thread? Someone could send him the link to the thread and get his thinkingon this. It would be very interesting indeed!

In my home area FTFs are VERY competitive with one player in particular quite capable and dedicated enough to beat you there unless you trek out 2 minutes after a cache is listed, rain or shine, light or dark. Haven't noticed any new hides in any cemetaries locally.

 

To comment directly to the thread. Anyone planting a cache with restricted hours has to know that someone will attempt the find when they shouldn't. It seems to be human nature that the rule don't apply to everyone all the time. That is the risk of cemetary type caches and I have seen my share of DNFs in those locatons.

I did when the thread first started. Maybe they just don't really care.

[+rickjill]

Virginia Cemetery Law states: § 18.2-125. Trespass at night upon any cemetery.

 

If any person, without the consent of the owner, proprietor or custodian, go or enter in the nighttime, upon the premises, property, driveways or walks of any cemetery, either public or private, for any purpose other than to visit the burial lot or grave of some member of his family, he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

 

(Code 1950, § 18.1-181; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)

 

Ahhh... good catch! I stand corrected. Thanks.

 

Edit: Wait... no I don't! What has Virginia got to do with this? The cache in question is in Indiana.

As best as I can tell several States have the same or similar § 18.2-125 Law. Indinia may be one of them.

And many states have different laws. I posted a link to Indiana's, and I could find nothing regarding times of day for visiting. It may be there, but if so, I missed it.

I missed your post and searched that same site and a few others. I can't find it for sure either. But if it were me the CO would never know what time I signed the log, and I would waited until the second to find logged their find. I hate being FTF, and I know that others enjoy it, so I never try and be FTF. Leave it to the Hounds. Truth is I'm a better tracker than I am at finding geocaches.

Found this in knowschad link to Indiana Law

IC 23-14-32

Chapter 32. Curfews

 

IC 23-14-32-1

Curfews to memorialize the dead

Sec. 1. A county, city, or town may impose a curfew specific to cemeteries or other facilities used to memorialize the dead under IC 31-37-3-5.

As added by P.L.103-1996, SEC.3. Amended by P.L.1-1997, SEC.108.

[+theosus]

Regardless of what laws may or may not be applicable, at the very least, the cache owner was concerned about how geocaching and geocachers might be perceived, and I find that admirable. You say that you were there in the brief time between dusk and "legal" sunrise, and I get that. But put yourself in the shoes of a LEO or a citizen out for an early morning walk that happens to see somebody "lurking" around the barely light cemetery. Consider that they know nothing about geocaching. Even as a geocacher, that would probably at least cause me to look closer to see if you were holding a GPS.

 

Several years ago in SC there was a big stink over geocaches in cemeteries. Some cachers posted pictures somewhere of travel bugs on tombstones, sitting on tombstones, etc. It appeared disrespectful, so many complained that our legislature wrote a bill to ban geocaching in cemeteries. Its one step from there to banning it statewide. Look at any geocaching map. One could say that's a "lot of litter placed in our state on purpose!", if one were a politician. A group of concerned cachers went to debate the law and it was dropped. The rules are there for a reason. I say your find should count, but you got a virtual spanking, and know better in the future.