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Giving Hints For a New, Unfound Cache


SooMukwas

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Only wondering because I woke up this morning seeing this log note on a cache that was published last night after the first to find logged their find which included some humorous story involving getting a hint from the CO:

 

"Asking/begging for hints/help on an FTF - sad and bad form on the part of the requestor.

Giving hints/help/assistance to the first finder - sad and totally wrong on the part of the CO.

Congratulations on your assisted FTF - what a joke."

 

Did someone wake up grumpy this morning or what? LOL!

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Why would it be any different than give hints to the one hundred and first to find.

 

We get hung up on the FTF. That's not part of geocaching as a whole. That is a game within the game. If the CO wants to give hints to everyone that comes to his cache that's the CO's business. As long as the cache is placed and maintained within the guidlines is being done correctly.

 

Don't take that to think I'm anti-FTF. In fact I love watching the FTF race. I thinks it's a cute little add-on cachers have come up with. So I'm not downing the FTF or anyone that likes FTFs.

 

Edit: I shouldn't before type my coffee.

Edited by Totem Clan
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Why would it be any different than give hints to the one hundred and first to find.

 

We get hung up on the FTF. That's not part of geocaching as a whole. That is a game within the game. If the CO wants to give hints to everyone that comes to his cache that's the CO's business. As long as the cache is placed and maintained within the guidlines is being done correctly.

 

Don't take that to think I'm anti-FTF. In fact I love watching the FTF race. I thinks it's a cute little add-on cachers have come up with. So I'm not downing the FTF or anyone that likes FTFs.

 

Edit: I shouldn't type before my coffee.

 

I totally agree......

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I would not give any hints for caches until FTF has been done so everyone has a shot.

 

That said, have seen exceptions on a case by case basis that I agree with. There was this puzzle cache where it had been unfound for over a week or two and only one finder was trying to find it (only geochecker success), in the snow no less, so the CO gave a little hint to find the cache.

 

Ultimately, its just a FTF and sometimes I may be a little bothered by hints on FTF caches but really, is it a reason to hate people or to go nuts over? I am not saying any of that is in this thread, I have seen it happen locally. Have seen people now hate people due to hints given by COs. Really? Does not take much sometimes it would seem.

Edited by lamoracke
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I guess I'm in the camp that thinks "No hint until after the FTF" is dumb. I give a hint right from the start on my caches. If you're going to give a hint anyway, why deny it from the FTF?

 

Besides, I see tons of caches out there that have had many, many finds, and that hint is STILL "No hint until after the FTF." :blink:

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I would not give any hints for caches until FTF has been done so everyone has a shot.

 

I'm not into the FTF game and won't do anything the encourages the competition to be first to find on any of my caches (not that I've placed any new ones in awhile).

 

That said, I see nothing wrong with giving a hint prior to a FTF if the hint is posted as a log entry for everyone to see, and I would be reluctant to answer a request for a hint via email before a FTF. Once the cache has been found I'm more than happy to answer any requests for a hint and even provide a complete spoiler for the location of the cache via email.

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You can be 'creative' in how you give hints

 

Around here - there are a lot of FTF hounds. If its an urban type cache, there will be 3+ people at GZ in 15 minutes after posting. You don't have time to e-mail for a hint. Those same FTF hounds are usually friends with the CO anyway and have their phone number....and can call onsite. Would you deny your friends a hint? They wouldn't deny you of a hint.

 

For non-urban caches: A cacher has prepared him/herself to visit your cache, took time out of their day and their gas to get to it. They arrive at GZ and can't find it..... How frustrating is that? We've all been there. A hint is a hint. You don't have to give it away but at least give them half a chance at finding it.

 

What comes around...goes around...

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It's nothing to go nuts about, but I generally consider it to be poor form to ask for a private hint before a cache has been found. If you want to enter the FTF race, then you should compete on a level playing field.

 

That said, I agree that cache owners should be free to provide private hints whenever they like. They shouldn't have to worry about the fairness of a FTF race if they don't want to.

 

I sometimes will go after FTFs, so I won't provide private hints before my caches are found. Like others, however, I have provided public hints before the FTF has been claimed.

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Would you deny your friends a hint? They wouldn't deny you of a hint.

Yes, I would (and have) denied my friends private hints before FTF. I'm sure many of them also would deny me if I asked the same of them. It's just part of the game as we choose to play it. I also check-raise my friends at the poker table.

 

For non-urban caches: A cacher has prepared him/herself to visit your cache, took time out of their day and their gas to get to it. They arrive at GZ and can't find it..... How frustrating is that? We've all been there. A hint is a hint. You don't have to give it away but at least give them half a chance at finding it.

If reaching one of my caches involves a long hike, I usually ensure that it's a relatively easy find. I'll provide a good public hint and perhaps even a spoiler picture. I'll also be very generous with private hints...after the FTF.

 

That said, I don't get upset when I cannot find a cache, even after a long walk. I enjoy most challenging hides, and I enjoy most hikes. I don't feel the need to find every cache I look for.

 

If you're concerned about gas, time, and frustrations, then you always have the option of waiting until after the cache has been found.

Edited by CanadianRockies
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Those same FTF hounds are usually friends with the CO anyway and have their phone number....and can call onsite. Would you deny your friends a hint? They wouldn't deny you of a hint.

 

Interesting concept here...

 

But, our (true) friends wouldn't think of calling one of us, nor would we ever consider calling them. I guess that is why the (added) highlight doesn't make much sense -- to me, anyway.

 

I suppose it's all in how you play your game. I (we) have never thought of greasing up a <cough> friend, just to be greased by them later on. That's not friendship, that's politics.

 

I guess we are just old school and not into the current "way to do things".

 

I had lifetime of that carp before retiring... funny enough, it evoked similar responses at that time, too.

No, I wasn't a politician, had I been it might have been a different story.

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Yes, I would (and have) denied my friends private hints before FTF. I'm sure many of them also would deny me if I asked the same of them. It's just part of the game as we choose to play it.

And that is the key.

 

If the CO wants to lead the cacher by the hand to the cache for the FTF that's his business. I may not like it, but it doesn't give me (or anyone else) the right to leave berating logs on the cache page.

Edited by Totem Clan
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I enjoy the FTF side game, and am in the camp that wouldn't email the CO for a hint. And if I had DNF'd a toughie and found out afterwards that the eventual FTF got (non-public) hints, a part of me might get a little pouty.

 

But I also try really hard to remember that the vast majority of people who geocache aren't privy to whatever side game norms may have developed on these and other forums. As a cache hider, I want my caches to be found! I want people to enjoy them. If I was a relatively new player to the game and someone wanted a hint on one of my caches, I'd be more than happy to help out - hey, someone's trying to enjoy my cache!

 

I'd be way bummed if I helped a fellow cacher enjoy themselves and later got pushback from 'the community' over some sort of cheating-type allegations for a part of the game I didn't think mattered (it matters who finds my cache first?).

 

So even as a Hound who's a part of the no-non-public-hints camp, I would never try to do anything to make a CO uncomfortable about helping out other cachers. I wouldn't email them, I wouldn't leave passive/aggressive logs on the cache page, I wouldn't do any of that. I'd just remember that this is all part of the side game I choose to play, be grateful that there are CO's who are responsive!, and eagerly await the next publication.

 

(I suppose I could have just quoted Totem Clan's first post and said '+1', but I had some extra time on my hands this afternoon)

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Yes, I would (and have) denied my friends private hints before FTF. I'm sure many of them also would deny me if I asked the same of them. It's just part of the game as we choose to play it.

And that is the key.

 

If the CO wants to lead the cacher by the hand to the cache for the FTF that's his business. I may not like it, but it doesn't give me (or anyone else) the right to leave berating logs on the cache page.

We're pretty much in agreement here. As I noted in the post immediately above the one you quoted:

 

It's nothing to go nuts about, but I generally consider it to be poor form to ask for a private hint before a cache has been found. If you want to enter the FTF race, then you should compete on a level playing field.

 

That said, I agree that cache owners should be free to provide private hints whenever they like. They shouldn't have to worry about the fairness of a FTF race if they don't want to.

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I thought about asking for a hint recently for a multi / puzzle cache that has been placed for months but has not been found.

The reason I was / am going to ask for a hint is first: the coordinates for second and third legs of the multi were off of where the actual containers were located (the first was right on). The second was WAY off but living in the area I was able to figure out its location by the puzzle clue. Third leg was about a 100 yards off, but again using the clues I was able to find it. I was unable to find the fourth and final leg after looking for about an hour. Second, there is some relatively dangerous terrain around GZ and I am thinking of asking weather I need to head up the steep hill / rocks or if the container is down in the flats below the rocks.

Third, the cache is located about 3 hours from where I live.

It was a fun puzzle and I really want to hind it. I will probably try one more time before asking for a hint.

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...the coordinates for second and third legs of the multi were off of where the actual containers were located (the first was right on). The second was WAY off but living in the area I was able to figure out its location by the puzzle clue. Third leg was about a 100 yards off...

By chance were the 2nd and 3rd stages given by bearing and distance? If so, it may be an issue of true vs. magnetic bearing. That would explain why the error gets worse with each stage.

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...the coordinates for second and third legs of the multi were off of where the actual containers were located (the first was right on). The second was WAY off but living in the area I was able to figure out its location by the puzzle clue. Third leg was about a 100 yards off...

By chance were the 2nd and 3rd stages given by bearing and distance? If so, it may be an issue of true vs. magnetic bearing. That would explain why the error gets worse with each stage.

The second, third and fourth stages were given in decimal degrees instead of degrees and minutes. At least that is how I read the note in the log.

The third stage actually had a hand drawn map with it that showed an X fairly close (or as close and a rough hand drawn map can be) to where the coordinates took me.

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I have got that before. The seeker wants FTF but will not log a DNF after searching. I ignore them. :laughing: Log a DNF, then ask for help, you get a better clue. That's just how I play the game. :)

+1 I had a cache that went will several DNFs before a FTF. So I went and checked to make sure the cache worked, it did so no hint given just a note confirming all was well. :)

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Did someone wake up grumpy this morning or what?

That would be my guess. Some entitlement junkie whining because they didn't get an imaginary prize in an imaginary game. Kinda sad, when you think about it. There are so many significant things to crank up one's angst, that it boggles my mind when folks grumble about the silly things.

 

If someone really believes that the whole FTF sidegame does have merit, and should be played according to their rules, that's fine. There is room in the world for all manner of opinions. But posting carp like that on a cache page is in very bad form.

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I plan on setting out my first batch of caches this week. I won't post a hint until after the first couple of finds.

 

I'd like to hear how difficult it actually is to find the caches, then I can tweak a hint as necessary. I've got one in mind that's going to be a little sneaky, and I'd like to see how the first few cachers go about it before I give a hint.

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I suppose it would torque my tamale a bit if the CO gave a hint out to someone who asked, but I chose not to.

I guess that was a choice I made, wasn't it?

 

I suppose I might be disappointed that someone got the FTF that I was hoping to get (that has happened), and I suppose I could be irritated that the CO gave the FTF finder a hint so they could find it. I don't think that would prompt me to post a log exposing my feelings about the situation (and if I did I would not be surprised if it was summarily deleted).

 

The CO can give out extra hints however and whenever they choose.

If I were the cacher that posted the example log, I would not expect to get any 'special' hints from that CO (and probably nobody else once the word got around).

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Being the FTF is only fun if the CO offers a prize and/or puts your name "up in lights" beneath the log description.
Speak for yourself.

 

I am not an FTF hound, and none of the COs offered a prize or acknowledged my FTF in any way. But they were still fun.

 

Not only in a million years will I not put someone's name "up in lights" on one of my cache pages**, I even once asked when I was an unintended FTF for the CO to not do it for me. :ph34r:

 

I was going to respond to this thread early on, but never got around to it. My response at the time would have been "yeah, dude got up on the wrong side of the bed". But seeing several posts by people who are into the FTF side game made me think. Yes, you do see a lot of that "no hints until after FTF" stuff, be it in plain text on the cache page, or as a hint (which as someone said, usually never gets changed. :lol:) So yeah, I'll go with that, an FTF side game participant not liking what happened here.

 

**I think I did it once to embarrass someone, in case there are people out there who are going to look at my 43 cache pages. :D

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If you're concerned about gas, time, and frustrations, then you always have the option of waiting until after the cache has been found.

 

I'm not concerned about gas, time, or frustrations....

 

If I'm the CO - I want everyone who visits my caches to enjoy the experience. I'm the one who realizes they've taken time out of their day, gas out of their vehicle to look for my caches. I have respect for their visits. If they want a hint - before or after an FTF - doesn't matter. I'll give them a 'creative' hint. It's about enjoying the experience. If they enjoy the experience better by a quicker hunt....who am I to deny their pleasure in their style of playing?

 

There are no rules to follow in terms of hints - when to ask or not to ask and when to give or not to give.

Edited by Lieblweb
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Asking for help on a FTF: probably bad form unless the cache has been unfound for awhile.

 

Giving help to a FTF: Hey, it's the COs cache. If they want to help who is anyone to dispute it?

nothing chaps a hounds hide more than someone else getting help beating them to ftf.

i'm equal opportunity owner. if its a puzzle and you put time in solving and need help on the hide and most of the difficulty was the puzzle you get help[to a point]

if its an easy puzzle[YES! i have easy ones despite what anyone says] but the hide is a little harder, i'll let it bake a while.

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Being the FTF is only fun if the CO offers a prize and/or puts your name "up in lights" beneath the log description. Not all CO's bother acknowledging who's first to find their cache, so passing along a clue is just an aid for someone trying to locate it whether it's geocacher #1 or #101.

I'll respectfully disagree. I enjoy the FTF side game but prefer it when there is no marquee. I also feel awkward taking FTF prizes, although my wife has convinced me that leaving them behind might be considered rude to the CO (like refusing a gift or not eating food someone has cooked you). So I've tried to figure out a way to reconcile that and am so far unsuccessful.

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A cacher has prepared him/herself to visit your cache, took time out of their day and their gas to get to it. They arrive at GZ and can't find it..... How frustrating is that?

If you're concerned about gas, time, and frustrations, then you always have the option of waiting until after the cache has been found.

I'm not concerned about gas, time, or frustrations....

 

If I'm the CO - I want everyone who visits my caches to enjoy the experience. I'm the one who realizes they've taken time out of their day, gas out of their vehicle to look for my caches. I have respect for their visits. If they want a hint - before or after an FTF - doesn't matter.

As I've noted earlier, I agree that COs should be free to provide private hints whenever they like -- before or after an FTF, it doesn't matter.

 

I also believe COs should be free to not provide hints whenever they like -- before or after an FTF.

 

Personally, I generally won't provide hints until after an FTF, because I appreciate that there's an FTF side game going on and I want to keep the playing field reasonably level. I know other COs who take this position as well. If some people are concerned about gas, time, or frustrations, then they have the option to wait until the cache has been found before searching for caches that are placed by these types of owners.

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As a player who has just planted their first couple of caches, this thread has been very interesting as I really didn't know what the story was with giving hints for a FTF. It won't be happening anymore now that I have read the above. I do give a public hint and will continue to do that from time of publishing but the email hints won't be happening until after FTF from now on unless it has been in the field for some time and not found. Thanks for all the interesting comments and opinions. This newbie has learnt a lot

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