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Owner wiped out all logs for geocoin


teamhaynes
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GeoMinions, seriously now, do you have anything to say for reasoning that the practice of deleting logs from coins should be allowed other than what you've said already? I've read through your posts, and what I come away with is pretty much something along the lines of "because I don't want them", or "because I can". Are there any other compelling reasons that we should hear about?

 

I don't know if it is compelling enough, but here is one reason that you may not have thought about. Geocoin TBWZGB

 

9Key originally owned and activated this coin. He stored it in an archived geocache, Poker Face. Avroair aquired the coin and sold it to me. I dropped it at an event and now it is happily exploring Germany. The history shows over 8,000 miles with movement beginning with drop #1 in Texas.

 

However, this coin did not arrive in California from Texas via geocaching. Those 1000 miles were actually earned through the US Postal Service. And this coin began its geocaching journey in California.

 

Now, I love the coin's history and would not delete the logs. But because I did not, its history is not accurate. I can understand if a different owner in my place may have chosen to delete those logs to have the miles and travel reflect accurately in the geocoin's history.

I didn't realize there were ways to actually earn miles. Once the coin is active and moving the miles should be calculated no matter how the coin is moved. The coin went to one cacher and then to another, thus collecting the miles along the way. So the history is correct. Are you saying if I gave my father-in-law(not a cacher) one of my coins to drop in NC that the miles would be incorrect. Or are you saying that a "cacher" has to move the coin?

 

If I activate a coin, dip it into a cache here, then mail it to someone in Europe, no. I do not consider those miles to be a legitimate part of the journey mileage.

 

If I activate a coin, dip it into a cache here, then hand it to another geocacher or carry it on a plane myself, to Europe, then yes. I consider it to be a part of the coin's journey.

 

To me, a trackable's travels should be from cache/geocacher to cache/geocacher. (Purchases and forum missions aside) Otherwise, we may as well just mail them all to complete their missions. It certainly would be easier! :D

Right on. I think the mail part is cheesy now that I think about it. :laughing:

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Say I purchase a Parking Facility, and there are a handful of vehicles parked there. I have new plans for this facility - I want to resurface it or use it in a different manner so I am going to have these cars removed off my Property. Same thing with a coin I have purchased with my own money it belongs to me, it is my property, and if your log is parked there, and the log is in the past before I owned the coin then I will consider having them removed, of course as I reiterated before, they would only be discover logs from events where the coin has not traveled and the discoverers have not spent anytime with the coin but only viewed for a few seconds then I will probably delete the logs.

And if the log owner did not receive a log deletion notice they would not even be aware of it being archived.

 

using this logic, I certainly hope you never purchase the Declaration of Independence and start deleting Ben Franklins and John Hancocks signatures from it beacause you want to start it over again... same could be said for the Vietnam War Memorial, I'd hate for you to start deleting the history there... or Mount Rushmore...or,or, or....the list goes on, but lets make it fit geocoins and trackables....

 

lets suppose you had the oportunity to purchase the first geocoin ( Mnt10bike's 001) or the OCB (Original Can of Beans) or an opportunity to adopt the last APE cache. Would you want to delete the log history of those trackables/cache simply because you could because you are the "new" owner and wanted to start them from scratch again? I'm guessing not, so why is it so important to delete the logs and history of any other trackable with a history?

 

I'd personally be pissed if you acquired several coins I have discovered and started deleting my discovery of them, as many of them are rare enough that I may never see another one unless I run across an 'old school' geocoin collector that has managed not to liquidate their collection over the past few years...

If you want coins without a history then I would suggest not buying activated coins. You may not see it at cheating anyone out of anything but an icon, but the person that discovered it may see it as something more, like a special occasion or event and meeting some special people at the time. Unless you were there, you don't know and shouldn't try rewriting the history of the coin because it satisfies your desire to do so...

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You know the answer to all of this is to just request to discover the coin again, Ask the new owner that since you discovered this coin in the past, if they would not mind you discovering it again with a current date. That would make everyone happy.

 

Not possible, unless of course the coin owner is willing to meet with all of the people who had their logs deleted. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a virtual log, likely to get the coin locked completely. Hopefully not a practice that you're using with any of your many geocoins.

No, They have already seen this coin, the owner is not handing out the tracking # to everybody, just those who logged it previously. And I resent your implication of me doing such a thing I am fully aware of the rules regarding virtual logging!

 

if they are willing to let them relog the coin then what was the point

of deleting them in the 1st place

why were they not just left on there

Because, The new owner has initiated a new activation date and and new starting point, so they don't want logs predating the activation. That's why. simple really

I say don't be so cheap and buy unactivatied coins and you wouldn't have any drama. :rolleyes::laughing:

Being Cheap has NOTHING to do with it. Some coins are no longer available to buy from a vendor, so you have to buy them from a private party. Don't be ignorant. I have many coins are activated and more so that are not.

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Say I purchase a Parking Facility, and there are a handful of vehicles parked there. I have new plans for this facility - I want to resurface it or use it in a different manner so I am going to have these cars removed off my Property. Same thing with a coin I have purchased with my own money it belongs to me, it is my property, and if your log is parked there, and the log is in the past before I owned the coin then I will consider having them removed, of course as I reiterated before, they would only be discover logs from events where the coin has not traveled and the discoverers have not spent anytime with the coin but only viewed for a few seconds then I will probably delete the logs.

And if the log owner did not receive a log deletion notice they would not even be aware of it being archived.

 

using this logic, I certainly hope you never purchase the Declaration of Independence and start deleting Ben Franklins and John Hancocks signatures from it beacause you want to start it over again... same could be said for the Vietnam War Memorial, I'd hate for you to start deleting the history there... or Mount Rushmore...or,or, or....the list goes on, but lets make it fit geocoins and trackables....

 

lets suppose you had the oportunity to purchase the first geocoin ( Mnt10bike's 001) or the OCB (Original Can of Beans) or an opportunity to adopt the last APE cache. Would you want to delete the log history of those trackables/cache simply because you could because you are the "new" owner and wanted to start them from scratch again? I'm guessing not, so why is it so important to delete the logs and history of any other trackable with a history?

 

I'd personally be pissed if you acquired several coins I have discovered and started deleting my discovery of them, as many of them are rare enough that I may never see another one unless I run across an 'old school' geocoin collector that has managed not to liquidate their collection over the past few years...

If you want coins without a history then I would suggest not buying activated coins. You may not see it at cheating anyone out of anything but an icon, but the person that discovered it may see it as something more, like a special occasion or event and meeting some special people at the time. Unless you were there, you don't know and shouldn't try rewriting the history of the coin because it satisfies your desire to do so...

This is So Far Out, it does not warrant even reading.

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Say I purchase a Parking Facility, and there are a handful of vehicles parked there. I have new plans for this facility - I want to resurface it or use it in a different manner so I am going to have these cars removed off my Property. Same thing with a coin I have purchased with my own money it belongs to me, it is my property, and if your log is parked there, and the log is in the past before I owned the coin then I will consider having them removed, of course as I reiterated before, they would only be discover logs from events where the coin has not traveled and the discoverers have not spent anytime with the coin but only viewed for a few seconds then I will probably delete the logs.

And if the log owner did not receive a log deletion notice they would not even be aware of it being archived.

 

using this logic, I certainly hope you never purchase the Declaration of Independence and start deleting Ben Franklins and John Hancocks signatures from it beacause you want to start it over again... same could be said for the Vietnam War Memorial, I'd hate for you to start deleting the history there... or Mount Rushmore...or,or, or....the list goes on, but lets make it fit geocoins and trackables....

 

lets suppose you had the oportunity to purchase the first geocoin ( Mnt10bike's 001) or the OCB (Original Can of Beans) or an opportunity to adopt the last APE cache. Would you want to delete the log history of those trackables/cache simply because you could because you are the "new" owner and wanted to start them from scratch again? I'm guessing not, so why is it so important to delete the logs and history of any other trackable with a history?

 

I'd personally be pissed if you acquired several coins I have discovered and started deleting my discovery of them, as many of them are rare enough that I may never see another one unless I run across an 'old school' geocoin collector that has managed not to liquidate their collection over the past few years...

If you want coins without a history then I would suggest not buying activated coins. You may not see it at cheating anyone out of anything but an icon, but the person that discovered it may see it as something more, like a special occasion or event and meeting some special people at the time. Unless you were there, you don't know and shouldn't try rewriting the history of the coin because it satisfies your desire to do so...

Like I said, I only do log deletions of Discoveries made at an Event, not discovery logs on coins that are moving. But if I purchase a coin that you discovered at an event, it could happen.

Edited by GeoMinions
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So it is what I thought it was. There is no rationale here to the opposing side of this argument. Now it's spite, as is made evident by the last post made by GeoMinion, but even before that, it was simply "because." No good, decent, rational reason.

 

I, for one, am glad that we got this hashed out.

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This is So Far Out, it does not warrant even reading.

 

you're entitled to your opinion, even if it smells bad. However I expect reactions like this when a valid point is made and a valid rebuttal can't be.

 

BTW, you missed re-activating your dates and launch point on your *removed by moderator*... It shows as being activated in 2006 and launched from Washington, that's roughly 3 years before you started caching... I'm sure you overlooked that when the history logs were deleted... then again, it may have not had any history, no one will ever know will they?

 

After it's all said and done, Nothing is going to change your way of thinking, and you're entitled to do what you want with your coins, however you can't expect folks to agree with you or like it...

Edited by Eartha
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I definitely fall in the camp of not deleting logs on adopted coins.

 

  • Deleting the logs has no bearing on the value of a coin if you are collecting it.
  • I personally believe it is rude to the rest of the community to delete the history.

 

I have recently adopted several coins and while I have changed the mission, adjusted the name and the coin page I intentionally left the logs alone. I like the idea of a tick box or radial button selection whereby a new owner may indicate whether they want a fresh slate or allow the existing logs to remain. But even if they choose a fresh slate my personal take is the logs should remain in some sort of archived state where they cannot by deleted.

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So it is what I thought it was. There is no rationale here to the opposing side of this argument. Now it's spite, as is made evident by the last post made by GeoMinion, but even before that, it was simply "because." No good, decent, rational reason.

 

I, for one, am glad that we got this hashed out.

 

:( I was genuinely interested about your thoughts on what I wrote. Not to argue; I don't delete the logs myself anyway. But I thought I brought up a rational point in my example. A number of coins I have purchased, and sometimes passed on to other cachers, have the same issue.

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:( I was genuinely interested about your thoughts on what I wrote. Not to argue; I don't delete the logs myself anyway. But I thought I brought up a rational point in my example. A number of coins I have purchased, and sometimes passed on to other cachers, have the same issue.

 

Momster, I sat and typed out a reply to what you wrote earlier, and I have no idea what happened to it. There was nothing in it that would have warranted deleting, so maybe I just never hit the post button. My apologies, it is an interesting topic.

 

 

I don't know if it is compelling enough, but here is one reason that you may not have thought about. Geocoin TBWZGB

 

9Key originally owned and activated this coin. He stored it in an archived geocache, Poker Face. Avroair aquired the coin and sold it to me. I dropped it at an event and now it is happily exploring Germany. The history shows over 8,000 miles with movement beginning with drop #1 in Texas.

 

However, this coin did not arrive in California from Texas via geocaching. Those 1000 miles were actually earned through the US Postal Service. And this coin began its geocaching journey in California.

 

Now, I love the coin's history and would not delete the logs. But because I did not, its history is not accurate. I can understand if a different owner in my place may have chosen to delete those logs to have the miles and travel reflect accurately in the geocoin's history.

 

I'm not entirely sure that I agree that its history is inaccurate as a result of the way that it's logged. The coin did indeed start in Texas, and got its start there. And then, if I'm understanding it correctly, it actually was in California. So it did go from Texas to California, although not via geocaching/geocacher.

 

Truth be told, and as I've stated in the other thread on this same topic, I'm not advocating for coin owners to never be able to delete logs and manipulate their coins. I'm just against deleting logs that put the coin with a cacher, be it discoveries or moving logs. So long as something is left that keeps the coin with that cacher, the rest should continue to be up to the coin owner.

 

The other example that was brought up was a whole bunch of (what the coin owner considered) useless "took it to" logs, and whether or not those should be allowed to be deleted. That, I could care less about. The only thing that will be affected by that is the coins mileage. As long as the discovery logs are left alone, and the "grabbed it" logs are left alone, the rest really should be up to the coin owner.

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Here is where this thread stands at this point:

 

Groundspeak has been made aware of this discussion and may or may not choose to participate in the discussion at some point. This stuff doesn't happen in real-time though so be patient if they don't post first thing in the morning or even for a few days.

 

It sounds like a feature request has been put in by at least one user.

 

A few people are causing this thread to get a bit personal with name calling and petty remarks or dominating the conversation.

 

I think this thread warrants staying open so the discussion can continue, but I don't like the way it's heading right now so here is what I am going to do:

- Leave the thread open

- Tell the following people to not post in this thread for the next day (basically 24 hours from this post so it takes into account time zones, etc.):

**G & C

**GeoMinions

**LionsLair

(I'm trying to be nice and polite here, but don't take this as a request. Please obey this directive and don't force Eartha or I to issue suspensions which would prevent you from posting anywhere)

- Direct everybody to talk about the practice in general and stop directing comments towards GeoMinions - they have obviously made their decision and they don't 'owe' anybody an explanation, like it or not

- Remind everybody that telling people they are "ignorant" (or similar comments) are not acceptable

 

This is obviously a topic that warrants discussion so let's do so in a constructive manner. If somebody disagrees with you, it doesn't make them "stupid", "cheap" or even "wrong". It simply means you have different opinions.

 

So feel free to post on why you think it's OK to delete logs or why you don't think it's OK, but leave individual people out of it as well as any veiled attacks on anybody's character.

 

Gracias. Mahalo. Kamsa hamnida. Danke. Merci. Grazie. Obrigado. Spasibo.

Edited by Flying Spaghetti Monster
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Here is where this thread stands at this point:

 

Groundspeak has been made aware of this discussion and may or may not choose to participate in the discussion at some point. This stuff doesn't happen in real-time though so be patient if they don't post first thing in the morning or even for a few days.

 

It sounds like a feature request has been put in by at least one user.

 

A few people are causing this thread to get a bit personal with name calling and petty remarks or dominating the conversation.

 

I think this thread warrants staying open so the discussion can continue, but I don't like the way it's heading right now so here is what I am going to do:

- Leave the thread open

- Tell the following people to not post in this thread for the next day (basically 24 hours from this post so it takes into account time zones, etc.):

**G & C

**GeoMinions

**LionsLair

(I'm trying to be nice and polite here, but don't take this as a request. Please obey this directive and don't force Eartha or I to issue suspensions which would prevent you from posting anywhere)

- Direct everybody to talk about the practice in general and stop directing comments towards GeoMinions - they have obviously made their decision and they don't 'owe' anybody an explanation, like it or not

- Remind everybody that telling people they are "ignorant" (or similar comments) are not acceptable

 

This is obviously a topic that warrants discussion so let's do so in a constructive manner. If somebody disagrees with you, it doesn't make them "stupid", "cheap" or even "wrong". It simply means you have different opinions.

 

So feel free to post on why you think it's OK to delete logs or why you don't think it's OK, but leave individual people out of it as well as any veiled attacks on anybody's character.

 

Gracias. Mahalo. Kamsa hamnida. Danke. Merci. Grazie. Obrigado. Spasibo.

 

I have been trolling this forum thread today and it would appear to me that G&C and Lions Lair are the bigger offenders. Geominions was just defending themselves.

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Say I purchase a Parking Facility, and there are a handful of vehicles parked there. I have new plans for this facility - I want to resurface it or use it in a different manner so I am going to have these cars removed off my Property. Same thing with a coin I have purchased with my own money it belongs to me, it is my property, and if your log is parked there, and the log is in the past before I owned the coin then I will consider having them removed, of course as I reiterated before, they would only be discover logs from events where the coin has not traveled and the discoverers have not spent anytime with the coin but only viewed for a few seconds then I will probably delete the logs.

And if the log owner did not receive a log deletion notice they would not even be aware of it being archived.

 

using this logic, I certainly hope you never purchase the Declaration of Independence and start deleting Ben Franklins and John Hancocks signatures from it beacause you want to start it over again... same could be said for the Vietnam War Memorial, I'd hate for you to start deleting the history there... or Mount Rushmore...or,or, or....the list goes on, but lets make it fit geocoins and trackables....

 

lets suppose you had the oportunity to purchase the first geocoin ( Mnt10bike's 001) or the OCB (Original Can of Beans) or an opportunity to adopt the last APE cache. Would you want to delete the log history of those trackables/cache simply because you could because you are the "new" owner and wanted to start them from scratch again? I'm guessing not, so why is it so important to delete the logs and history of any other trackable with a history?

 

I'd personally be pissed if you acquired several coins I have discovered and started deleting my discovery of them, as many of them are rare enough that I may never see another one unless I run across an 'old school' geocoin collector that has managed not to liquidate their collection over the past few years...

If you want coins without a history then I would suggest not buying activated coins. You may not see it at cheating anyone out of anything but an icon, but the person that discovered it may see it as something more, like a special occasion or event and meeting some special people at the time. Unless you were there, you don't know and shouldn't try rewriting the history of the coin because it satisfies your desire to do so...

Like I said, I only do log deletions of Discoveries made at an Event, not discovery logs on coins that are moving. But if I purchase a coin that you discovered at an event, it could happen.

The thing I find sad about this logic is this...I am a collector of geocoins. Some of them are sorta special, some not so much. I have friends and I know other cachers whom I have merely met who can't afford to purchase geocoins. Many of them have expressed that they enjoy the discovery of the coins at events to which I have taken them. For many of them, this is the only way they will ever see these coins or "collect" the icon for them. I just don't think it's fair to delete the logs once they have been logged because that takes away from another cacher's history.

 

I definitely would like to see Groundspeak address this issue concerning trackables. There is clearly a guideline concerning deleting legitimate cache logs; I believe there should be a guideline about deleting legitimate trackable logs.

 

Just as an aside...what I find mildly iron about the logic of deleting logs is this - some people seem to think activated geocoins with a log history are less appealing, or worth less, than unactivated coins with no logs. The ironic thing about that is that, once the new owner deletes all the logs and "re-activates" the coin, it is now a "less worthy" coin (in that logic) because it is now activated. The only person who benefited from the "re-activation" is the new owner - to everybody else (using that logic), it is now "less worthy."

Edited by steben6
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So let me ask: Has anybody suggested this as a feature request yet or is it just going to be discussed and debated by a few in this thread?

 

i started a suggestion about this

thanks

I can't find the thread for this. Did you put it in the the correct "FEATURE" format?

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I may be wrong but it seems to me that the one main issue that keeps coming up is that if the new owner of the coin wipes the history clean it erases the icon and personal log from peoples profile page. What if we suggest to GS that once a log has been made and the icon added to a personal profile page then it is locked on that page regardless of the status of the coins page. So then the list of found/discovered coin icons are seperate from what goes on with the coins page itself. Adding to that you could always have it so when a coin owner cleans the history of a coin then there could be an archived coin history page that accessable by those that have logged it and is not connected to the coin page at all and does not continue to add more to it after the wipe date.

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I support the concept of treating logs on trackable items the same as logs on geocaches - they should not be deleted without a good reason

 

and I also like the idea of locking logs after a period of time

no delete, no edit, not for any reason, not by anybody

 

- - - -

 

and, since logs are not actually deleted (they just go where you can't see them) . . .

I would support a clickable link on the item (or geocache) page that says "show complete log history" - it would include edits and deletes - this should not be too hard to implement, since it appears that Groundspeak folks can do it easily

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I support the concept of treating logs on trackable items the same as logs on geocaches - they should not be deleted without a good reason

 

and I also like the idea of locking logs after a period of time

no delete, no edit, not for any reason, not by anybody

 

- - - -

 

and, since logs are not actually deleted (they just go where you can't see them) . . .

I would support a clickable link on the item (or geocache) page that says "show complete log history" - it would include edits and deletes - this should not be too hard to implement, since it appears that Groundspeak folks can do it easily

 

I've already voiced my opinion on the important value of the icon, but for many people, the actual log is an important piece of their caching history. That being said, the bolded portion of the above quote is the best suggestion I've heard so far!

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I like the idea of a tick box or radial button selection whereby a new owner may indicate whether they want a fresh slate or allow the existing logs to remain. But even if they choose a fresh slate my personal take is the logs should remain in some sort of archived state where they cannot by deleted.

 

I like the idea of such a tick box too, but I think it should be filled in by the OLD owner, not the NEW one. That way if you trade or sell a coin to someone, you can make sure the old logs remain as a courtsey to your finders, and the new owner knows what the deal is. I don't see any advantage to the new owner ticking the box (that would not change anything compared to the current situation: they would still do simply as they pleased).

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I may be wrong but it seems to me that the one main issue that keeps coming up is that if the new owner of the coin wipes the history clean it erases the icon and personal log from peoples profile page. What if we suggest to GS that once a log has been made and the icon added to a personal profile page then it is locked on that page regardless of the status of the coins page. So then the list of found/discovered coin icons are seperate from what goes on with the coins page itself. Adding to that you could always have it so when a coin owner cleans the history of a coin then there could be an archived coin history page that accessable by those that have logged it and is not connected to the coin page at all and does not continue to add more to it after the wipe date.

 

this isnt a bad idea but what about logging a coin wrong.

such as i was logging someone elses coins and found a m10b coin.

i logged it (but that wasnt the coin number)and later got an email from the holder of the coin.

it was an honest mistake and i deleted my log without a problem.

so if it didnt change the icon then i would have more of those icons than i actually found.

Edited by mlrs1996
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I may be wrong but it seems to me that the one main issue that keeps coming up is that if the new owner of the coin wipes the history clean it erases the icon and personal log from peoples profile page. What if we suggest to GS that once a log has been made and the icon added to a personal profile page then it is locked on that page regardless of the status of the coins page. So then the list of found/discovered coin icons are seperate from what goes on with the coins page itself. Adding to that you could always have it so when a coin owner cleans the history of a coin then there could be an archived coin history page that accessable by those that have logged it and is not connected to the coin page at all and does not continue to add more to it after the wipe date.

 

this isnt a bad idea but what about logging a coin wrong.

such as i was logging someone elses coins and found a m10b coin.

i logged it (but that wasnt the coin number)and later got an email from the holder of the coin.

it was an honest mistake and i deleted my log without a problem.

so if it didnt change the icon then i would have more of those icons than i actually found.

Maybe having the option to lock the Icons like you can with milestones?

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I may be wrong but it seems to me that the one main issue that keeps coming up is that if the new owner of the coin wipes the history clean it erases the icon and personal log from peoples profile page. What if we suggest to GS that once a log has been made and the icon added to a personal profile page then it is locked on that page regardless of the status of the coins page. So then the list of found/discovered coin icons are seperate from what goes on with the coins page itself. Adding to that you could always have it so when a coin owner cleans the history of a coin then there could be an archived coin history page that accessable by those that have logged it and is not connected to the coin page at all and does not continue to add more to it after the wipe date.

 

this isnt a bad idea but what about logging a coin wrong.

such as i was logging someone elses coins and found a m10b coin.

i logged it (but that wasnt the coin number)and later got an email from the holder of the coin.

it was an honest mistake and i deleted my log without a problem.

so if it didnt change the icon then i would have more of those icons than i actually found.

 

That's why I suggested a grace period. If gives a little time to correct errors. This is the way things are done with Waymarks already, so it shouldn't (to my non-programming brain) be too difficult to implement a similar feature for trackables.

Groundspeak would still retain the right and ability to delete or reinstate logs if situations warranted.

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I may be wrong but it seems to me that the one main issue that keeps coming up is that if the new owner of the coin wipes the history clean it erases the icon and personal log from peoples profile page. What if we suggest to GS that once a log has been made and the icon added to a personal profile page then it is locked on that page regardless of the status of the coins page. So then the list of found/discovered coin icons are seperate from what goes on with the coins page itself. Adding to that you could always have it so when a coin owner cleans the history of a coin then there could be an archived coin history page that accessable by those that have logged it and is not connected to the coin page at all and does not continue to add more to it after the wipe date.

 

this isnt a bad idea but what about logging a coin wrong.

such as i was logging someone elses coins and found a m10b coin.

i logged it (but that wasnt the coin number)and later got an email from the holder of the coin.

it was an honest mistake and i deleted my log without a problem.

so if it didnt change the icon then i would have more of those icons than i actually found.

 

That's why I suggested a grace period. If gives a little time to correct errors. This is the way things are done with Waymarks already, so it shouldn't (to my non-programming brain) be too difficult to implement a similar feature for trackables.

Groundspeak would still retain the right and ability to delete or reinstate logs if situations warranted.

 

This is a good idea to protect the icon collection. As mention it does need some tweaking. But as Geocoin have also become a collectable item some of the value is based on the coin being unactive or active and the amount of logs a coin have. Yes, there are examples where it does not matter, but on the whole I find it does.

 

I believe the car odometer analogy is a closer for geocoins. Deleting the logs is like rolling the odometer backward.

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i do think this is a good thing for GS to look into

because if all that needs to be said is i thought it was boring so i deleted it

its going to cause more problems as more people join the game.

 

i saw nowhere in the "rules" for geocoins that said if you discover a coin at an event instead of finding it in a cache your log could be deleted in the future.

 

There are No Rules for Geocoins, there is only etiquette and the main etiquette is to move the geocoin. Coins are property, they belong to the owner. no one else - For someone else To change the 'rules' for something that you own is not correct

 

i agree some what

 

but what about a tattoo tb, or car tb, or name tag tb or the tb's on shirts

they are not moved by people but discovered so why would i go in and delete all of the logs

of people that discovered my tattoo... because then everyone would loose that icon.

because even when its a tattoo its still just a regular tb that i had that number put on to my arm so technically i could sell that number if i decided too (not sure what good it would do )lol but i could

 

also you stated that there are no rules for this i think thats what alot of us are saying.

there needs to be a rule to cover this

Well for one, TB's Have no real value once activated. they are not the same as a geocoin. but if you sell yours then yes, the new owner should have the ability to delete any logs they want to.

 

oh and I disagree about rules for geocoins. They are property and no rules should be set down on something you own, and remember there are no guarantees in life. just cause you write something, does not mean it will be there forever.

 

TBs are not the same as geocoins?? From a collecting/trading standpoint that may be correct, but from a geocaching standpoint, I feel it highlights a point that is being overlooked...they share one unique trait - a tracking number. While the physical trackable (and any intrinsic value it may have) is in fact the sole property of its owner, the tracking number, in essence, is community property that is shared between Groundspeak, the owner and those who have found (discovered, grabbed, etc)the trackable according to established GS rules. At that point the tracking logs become part of the geocacher's unique history.

 

It is from that perspective that I feel deleting logs is an intrusion onto others' property. If there were a way for a new owner to "clean up" a trackable (of any kind) to make it feel new to him or her without the perceived theft of a portion of someone else's history, I would be all for it. BUT, the current mechanisms on GS do not provide for such a non-invasive cleaning. I am glad that someone has opened this for GS to address and appreciate some of the ideas that have been presented to protect the rights of all parties. Let's continue a productive dialog and find the middle ground where agreement lives.

Edited by ky83cat
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You know the answer to all of this is to just request to discover the coin again, Ask the new owner that since you discovered this coin in the past, if they would not mind you discovering it again with a current date. That would make everyone happy.

 

Not possible, unless of course the coin owner is willing to meet with all of the people who had their logs deleted. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a virtual log, likely to get the coin locked completely. Hopefully not a practice that you're using with any of your many geocoins.

No, They have already seen this coin, the owner is not handing out the tracking # to everybody, just those who logged it previously. And I resent your implication of me doing such a thing I am fully aware of the rules regarding virtual logging!

 

if they are willing to let them relog the coin then what was the point

of deleting them in the 1st place

why were they not just left on there

Because, The new owner has initiated a new activation date and and new starting point, so they don't want logs predating the activation. That's why. simple really

I say don't be so cheap and buy unactivatied coins and you wouldn't have any drama. :rolleyes::laughing:

Being Cheap has NOTHING to do with it. Some coins are no longer available to buy from a vendor, so you have to buy them from a private party. Don't be ignorant. I have many coins are activated and more so that are not.

I was just joking around with the "cheap" thing. Guess the angst level was too high already. We have bought a couple coins with logs on them and have left them because that's part of the coins history. But that's just us. The coin is what I really care about. Again sorry about the cheap comment it was meant as a funny. :laughing:

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Ok, read the whole thread, so I'll see if I can compute all this...

 

Perceived rights:

1) Owners (old and new) own the physical TB/coin, and want their item listing to reflect its history as they see it, whether letting old logs stand or removing old logs they no longer want to see.

2) Geocachers may move or discover a coin, and feel that their posted log is their property and should not be deleted without their permission.

 

I think there is a compromise.

 

What if trackable item listings reflect history under specific ownership? The owner of an item can decide how their listing is shown, the public facing display of its history. However, if an item transfer ownership, the new owner has the option to show or hide previous owner history - in effect, rather than "deleting" logs, logs posted before the owner transfer are rather 'archived' and protected. The owner of the logs can still manage/edit/remove if they see fit, but the owner of the listing can decide whether those logs are visible, and whether visitors to the listing can see history under previous ownerships.

 

Example: I could visit a geocoin page and not tell the difference between a coin that was activated a year ago with a rich history, and a coin that was purchased who decided to lock down its history so it appears to be brand new. Previous discoverers and its mileage before the owner's period are still in the system, and reflected in the related geocacher's trackable item log history, but not on the item listing itself.

 

Example: I could visit a geocoin that has changed hands, but the new owner feels that its previous history is worth retaining, so here I see a tab showing previous ownerships. I click on the previous owner, and I can see its logs history from that time, up until it changed hands. Perhaps it's been active 10 years, under 8 different owners - the current owner has still allowed me access to see those periods of its history.

 

Example: I could visit a geocoin that's changed hands, but the new owner really doesn't care about the status of its history, and has opted to do nothing - I just see one coin, one owner, and the entire linear log history since its first activation (this is basically how trackable listing pages are handled now).

 

I think the problem is the use of "deletion" of logs. Why not simply have the option to archive them? Geocachers feel they 'own' their logs and have legitimate reason for that. Listing owners feel they 'own' their item and its display and have legitimate reason for that.

So don't delete logs without the log owner's permission. Just allow listing owners to archive/hide them from view, and let their owners still have the ability to manage them.

 

Side note: If I discover a coin that has changed hands to a new owner who archives its extended history, my log will still show in my profile, I'll still have the icon, and I can still edit or delete it - But I can't edit the date into the new owner's ownership period, and if I delete it, I can't get it back. I'd have to re-log it.

Edited by thebruce0
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Everything you propose sounds good, except that I think that archived logs should be able to be seen at any time. In other words, a new owner would be able to archive the logs and they would not show up on the web site, BUT there would be a discrete button that the new owner would not be able to remove that would say "show archives". If a person clicked on the button, then the full history would be displayed.

 

The way I look at it, the physical coin is fully owned by the person who purchased it, whether new or used. However, all of the logs and various descriptions that are accessed using the tracking number are on Groundspeak servers and belong to them. So much of the geocaching game is about recording, statistics, and history, that my hope and expectation is that they will preserve the histories that they have helped create. Geocaching is only a little over ten years old, so it is not yet obvious what they are creating and it doesn't seem very special, but think what we will have in one hundred years. Maybe the web site won't still exist then, but I really think that there is a chance that it will. The other cool thing is that I expect that many of the coins that have gone missing will resurface and be logged in again. Most are probably not in landfills, but in "private collections".

 

Ok, read the whole thread, so I'll see if I can compute all this...

 

Perceived rights:

1) Owners (old and new) own the physical TB/coin, and want their item listing to reflect its history as they see it, whether letting old logs stand or removing old logs they no longer want to see.

2) Geocachers may move or discover a coin, and feel that their posted log is their property and should not be deleted without their permission.

 

I think there is a compromise.

 

What if trackable item listings reflect history under specific ownership? The owner of an item can decide how their listing is shown, the public facing display of its history. However, if an item transfer ownership, the new owner has the option to show or hide previous owner history - in effect, rather than "deleting" logs, logs posted before the owner transfer are rather 'archived' and protected. The owner of the logs can still manage/edit/remove if they see fit, but the owner of the listing can decide whether those logs are visible, and whether visitors to the listing can see history under previous ownerships.

 

Example: I could visit a geocoin page and not tell the difference between a coin that was activated a year ago with a rich history, and a coin that was purchased who decided to lock down its history so it appears to be brand new. Previous discoverers and its mileage before the owner's period are still in the system, and reflected in the related geocacher's trackable item log history, but not on the item listing itself.

 

Example: I could visit a geocoin that has changed hands, but the new owner feels that its previous history is worth retaining, so here I see a tab showing previous ownerships. I click on the previous owner, and I can see its logs history from that time, up until it changed hands. Perhaps it's been active 10 years, under 8 different owners - the current owner has still allowed me access to see those periods of its history.

 

Example: I could visit a geocoin that's changed hands, but the new owner really doesn't care about the status of its history, and has opted to do nothing - I just see one coin, one owner, and the entire linear log history since its first activation (this is basically how trackable listing pages are handled now).

 

I think the problem is the use of "deletion" of logs. Why not simply have the option to archive them? Geocachers feel they 'own' their logs and have legitimate reason for that. Listing owners feel they 'own' their item and its display and have legitimate reason for that.

So don't delete logs without the log owner's permission. Just allow listing owners to archive/hide them from view, and let their owners still have the ability to manage them.

 

Side note: If I discover a coin that has changed hands to a new owner who archives its extended history, my log will still show in my profile, I'll still have the icon, and I can still edit or delete it - But I can't edit the date into the new owner's ownership period, and if I delete it, I can't get it back. I'd have to re-log it.

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I'd agree with the option to always provide a view of the archived history - the only reason I said to give the option of the new owner hiding it entirely was based on the idea that they don't want the history visible at all, the sole reason for deleting the logs entirely. If they're still visible in any way, then what's the point of it all? Now, if they'll agree that having it archived, but still available for viewing via the item listing page, wouldn't 'reduce its value', then great - I'm all for having the item history always available.

 

That was just my way of compromising - hidden archived history would still be available by the other geocachers' profiles, just not accessible via the item listing under the new ownership, if they didn't want it there. But if they're fine with it being accessible via an archived history view, then great! :)

 

That was the third tier option:

1) I don't care, show it all in one history

2) Focus on 'my' history, but provide access to history under other owners

3) Only my history, I want it like a brand new listing; hide the entirety of its previous history

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< snip >

 

That was the third tier option:

1) I don't care, show it all in one history

2) Focus on 'my' history, but provide access to history under other owners

3) Only my history, I want it like a brand new listing; hide the entirety of its previous history

 

This is making more sense to me now...and I'm liking it...

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If the new owner of a geocoin wants to set a new mission an delete all previous logs, this is their choice. From the email copied into this thread it seems that the geocoin owner was communicating respectfully with the affected cachers. Forum users are reminded that name-calling and inappropriate comments about other cachers are not permitted in our forums. Such posts will be removed and the posters warned or suspended from forum use.

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Sandy, while what you say is true (and I agree wholeheartedly on every point!), I think there's a legitimate concern with people feeling they have a right to retain logs they post on trackable items. Sometimes for stats, sometimes for memories, sometimes for ..whatever. Point being, allowing the archival (and retention) of historic logs may be a feasible resolution, allowing the new item owner to effectively clear out the public history display on the item's listing page, and allowing posters of those past logs to retain their trackable log history (whether it was discovering, moving, etc).

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Sandy, while what you say is true (and I agree wholeheartedly on every point!), I think there's a legitimate concern with people feeling they have a right to retain logs they post on trackable items. Sometimes for stats, sometimes for memories, sometimes for ..whatever. Point being, allowing the archival (and retention) of historic logs may be a feasible resolution, allowing the new item owner to effectively clear out the public history display on the item's listing page, and allowing posters of those past logs to retain their trackable log history (whether it was discovering, moving, etc).

 

Definitely agree with this point. I can't see how Groundspeak can treat a cache log so differently from a coin log... Both and cache and coin are owned by someone, tracked in the statistics of the player, so it would seem there would be some way to balance the interests of all parties.

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I can definitely see the difference between a cache log and a coin log. The cache is placed for geocachers to seek out and log, A coin is moved from one cache to another to the benefit of the Coin owner, it is an added aspect of the game. So the coin owner should own the logs posted on it to do with it what they want. However, most coin owners are excited to see where their coin is visiting so I am quite sure the logs that are being deleted are few.

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As a person who's had a NUMBER of logs deleted by a certain someone who has posted in this thread, I do have an issue with log deletions.

 

1. I discovered that coin. That is a fact.

2. While yes, I saw those coins at an event, that doesn't make my log a second class log compared to me picking it up and moving it. That's tacky. A discovery/grab is a log. Period.

3. Telling people to not take it personal doesn't mean we won't. Especially when i talked to the person who sold the coin, and that person was...well, not happy with what had been done to the coin. Log deletions for no reason are frowned upon by most people. it's not like we armchaired logged those coins from some other continent. I saw them. I logged them.

 

Look, there are some people who want the icons. Other to see as many coins as possible. Others want the coins to be "theirs" and anyone else who had it before isn't part of that history.

 

So fine. Make it when a coin is adopted, that all previous logs go to a second tab. See what happened to the coin on another tab, but not your "precious clean page" of your history of the coin.

 

Yes, it's their right to delete logs. But I know a few people who have done this with impunity that has ticked off a decent sized community in Arkansas.

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i do think this is a good thing for GS to look into

because if all that needs to be said is i thought it was boring so i deleted it

its going to cause more problems as more people join the game.

 

i saw nowhere in the "rules" for geocoins that said if you discover a coin at an event instead of finding it in a cache your log could be deleted in the future.

 

There are No Rules for Geocoins, there is only etiquette and the main etiquette is to move the geocoin. Coins are property, they belong to the owner. no one else - For someone else To change the 'rules' for something that you own is not correct

 

Sorry, Just saw this. and I have to disagree. Yes, there is etiquette, and yes, coins out in the wild should be moved. However, if coins are held by the owner, and shown to people, then the etiquette is NOT to steal the coin and move them along (which is what you'd be doing if you took a coin from an owner to move along)

 

There is also etiquette towards other cachers, which deleting logs of those who have a reason to want to keep the logs/icons/discoveries, does not show that basic respect that etiquette implies.

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Have you ever lost something that couldn't be replaced? At no fault of your own but due to someone or something beyond your control. Do you not still have a memory of that something.

 

Focus on the really important things in life, go hug your spouse, your kids, your pet. Move on.

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Shut down the forums, folks! No need to discuss any concerns or problems, cuz at least we all have our health, right? There art thou happy!

 

sorry, couldn't resist being facetious... :P While what you say is indeed true, it's no reason to stop sharing concerns and finding ways to make things better.

Now, taking things personally and going on insult rampages - that's completely different. I trust the moderators to take care of those instances (as demonstrated earlier)

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< snip >

 

That was the third tier option:

1) I don't care, show it all in one history

2) Focus on 'my' history, but provide access to history under other owners

3) Only my history, I want it like a brand new listing; hide the entirety of its previous history

 

This is making more sense to me now...and I'm liking it...

 

So the goal here is to make whatever someone does, not matter. Tell you what, you get the community to accept proxy coins and I'll back you up 100%.

 

Personally I think you haven't thought it through far enough.

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So the goal here is to make whatever someone does, not matter.

 

Are you referring to the new coin owner, whose desire to have no logs for their coin might supposedly not matter?

 

Or are you referring to the coin logger, whose desire to retain the record of their interaction with the coin might not matter?

 

Because I think both are equally important, don't you?

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< snip >

 

That was the third tier option:

1) I don't care, show it all in one history

2) Focus on 'my' history, but provide access to history under other owners

3) Only my history, I want it like a brand new listing; hide the entirety of its previous history

 

This is making more sense to me now...and I'm liking it...

 

So the goal here is to make whatever someone does, not matter. Tell you what, you get the community to accept proxy coins and I'll back you up 100%.

 

Personally I think you haven't thought it through far enough.

 

I'm sorry, I really don't understand the first statement at all. I believe that what EVERYONE does should matter and I'd like to see GS do something that would ensure that.

 

As to the proxys...I have no problem with them at all, but I believe this is a discussion for another thread.

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Here is where this thread stands at this point:

 

Groundspeak has been made aware of this discussion and may or may not choose to participate in the discussion at some point. This stuff doesn't happen in real-time though so be patient if they don't post first thing in the morning or even for a few days.

 

It sounds like a feature request has been put in by at least one user.

 

A few people are causing this thread to get a bit personal with name calling and petty remarks or dominating the conversation.

 

I think this thread warrants staying open so the discussion can continue, but I don't like the way it's heading right now so here is what I am going to do:

- Leave the thread open

- Tell the following people to not post in this thread for the next day (basically 24 hours from this post so it takes into account time zones, etc.):

**G & C

**GeoMinions

**LionsLair

(I'm trying to be nice and polite here, but don't take this as a request. Please obey this directive and don't force Eartha or I to issue suspensions which would prevent you from posting anywhere)

- Direct everybody to talk about the practice in general and stop directing comments towards GeoMinions - they have obviously made their decision and they don't 'owe' anybody an explanation, like it or not

- Remind everybody that telling people they are "ignorant" (or similar comments) are not acceptable

 

This is obviously a topic that warrants discussion so let's do so in a constructive manner. If somebody disagrees with you, it doesn't make them "stupid", "cheap" or even "wrong". It simply means you have different opinions.

 

So feel free to post on why you think it's OK to delete logs or why you don't think it's OK, but leave individual people out of it as well as any veiled attacks on anybody's character.

 

Gracias. Mahalo. Kamsa hamnida. Danke. Merci. Grazie. Obrigado. Spasibo.

 

wow, seriously? my objective opinion on this topic has evidently been taken way out of context. I meant it with no malice at all. It may have a snarky, sarcastic undertone to it, but I never called anyone names and as stated, I had no malice intent at all. If anyone was hurt by my words, then all I can suggest is you're reading too much into my thoughts...

 

It's a good thing I haven't returned to the forums in a few days because I surely would have gotten another slap on the wrist and strongarmed outta here for a few days, weeks, or possibly months... call me the ignorant one if you must, but I have read and reread the comments I was involved with and I don't see where the line was crossed on either side of the discussion and warranted any type of "warning" But since the moderators feel like I have overstepped my boundaries and feel a need to step in and stop the madness, You won't have to worry about me contributing to this discussion again.

 

Having said that, I'll say one last thing while showing myself to the door,

turning the topic into a 'discussion for a solution' is much better than debating pro's and con's (which before anyone points fingers, Is the only thing I see I was guilty of)

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