Jump to content

Owner wiped out all logs for geocoin


teamhaynes
Followers 14

Recommended Posts

Let's not talk about "fair" or "unfair". Really, this is a matter of opinion, not rights or entitlement.

 

There are obviously strong feelings about this on both sides, so I encourage further, polite debate on the topic.

 

Just be aware that if you really want it changed, it needs to be a feature request and people need to post in favor of that change.

 

Carry on.

Link to comment

So let me ask: Has anybody suggested this as a feature request yet or is it just going to be discussed and debated by a few in this thread?

 

I haven't...but only because I'm not quite sure HOW I'd like to see this issue "ruled upon". I'm not a big fan of rules and I'm not sure how detailed or strict GS should be on the geocoin page issue. So other than "I can't believe some people feel it's ok to take away my honestly earned icon", I don't know what to say. Quite frankly I'm surprised that someone would do that. Maybe further debate is necessary?

Link to comment

RULES AND REGUALTIONS ERODE FREEDOM - I will be definitely voting NO on this if it comes to that!

 

Finally something that I agree with you about.

 

However, unfortunately, the time comes for rules and regulations when free people start doing things that degrade the lives of others. In this case, you exercising your freedom is causing other people to lose something that they clearly care a great deal about. If you were to use your freedom more responsibly, perhaps the need for rules and regulations wouldn't be coming to fruition at this point.

 

You gain nothing by deleting logs. Absolutely nothing. Your coin is worth nothing more, nothing less. It is still worth what it was worth when you bought it with the logs. Others, however, lose icons, discoveries, miles, etc. when you delete logs. This is one of the many, many reasons that have been brought to light in this very thread as to why what you and your friends are doing is wrong and irresponsible.

Edited by G & C
Link to comment

And you are welcome to debate - that's what this thread is for.

 

I think people latch on to terms.

 

For example, I could pick apart the use of the word "earned" when you said "...honestly earned icon".

What did you do to EARN it? You saw it in a book or in somebody's hand.

That person paid for it and has "earned" the right to do what they want with the logs.

(I'm playing Devil's Advocate here...)

 

As long as the discussion remains civil, there's no reason that this thread cannot/will not continue as an exchange of ideas and opinions.

 

In my personal opinion, gains are only achieved through (civil) disagreement and debate.

Link to comment

You know the answer to all of this is to just request to discover the coin again, Ask the new owner that since you discovered this coin in the past, if they would not mind you discovering it again with a current date. That would make everyone happy.

 

Not possible, unless of course the coin owner is willing to meet with all of the people who had their logs deleted. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a virtual log, likely to get the coin locked completely. Hopefully not a practice that you're using with any of your many geocoins.

Link to comment

RULES AND REGUALTIONS ERODE FREEDOM - I will be definitely voting NO on this if it comes to that!

 

Finally something that I agree with you about.

 

However, unfortunately, the time comes for rules and regulations when free people start doing things that degrade the lives of others. In this case, you exercising your freedom is causing other people to lose something that they clearly care a great deal about. If you were to use your freedom more responsibly, perhaps the need for rules and regulations wouldn't be coming to fruition at this point.

 

You gain nothing by deleting logs. Absolutely nothing. Your coin is worth nothing more, nothing less. It is still worth what it was worth when you bought it with the logs. Others, however, lose icons, discoveries, miles, etc. when you delete logs. This is one of the many, many reasons that have been brought to light in this very thread as to why what you and your friends are doing is wrong and irresponsible.

You'd think I caused the world to crash from being in favor of allowing a new coin owner to delete a simple TFT discovery log. Give me a break. Let's get this back into prospective, it is only an Icon, it does not affect your life in any way.

I am not the reason for a rule change it's the complainers of losing a simple icon that want rule changed.

Link to comment

You know the answer to all of this is to just request to discover the coin again, Ask the new owner that since you discovered this coin in the past, if they would not mind you discovering it again with a current date. That would make everyone happy.

 

Not possible, unless of course the coin owner is willing to meet with all of the people who had their logs deleted. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a virtual log, likely to get the coin locked completely. Hopefully not a practice that you're using with any of your many geocoins.

No, They have already seen this coin, the owner is not handing out the tracking # to everybody, just those who logged it previously. And I resent your implication of me doing such a thing I am fully aware of the rules regarding virtual logging!

Link to comment

You know the answer to all of this is to just request to discover the coin again, Ask the new owner that since you discovered this coin in the past, if they would not mind you discovering it again with a current date. That would make everyone happy.

 

Not possible, unless of course the coin owner is willing to meet with all of the people who had their logs deleted. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a virtual log, likely to get the coin locked completely. Hopefully not a practice that you're using with any of your many geocoins.

No, They have already seen this coin, the owner is not handing out the tracking # to everybody, just those who logged it previously. And I resent your implication of me doing such a thing I am fully aware of the rules regarding virtual logging!

 

if they are willing to let them relog the coin then what was the point

of deleting them in the 1st place

why were they not just left on there

Link to comment

 

No, They have already seen this coin, the owner is not handing out the tracking # to everybody, just those who logged it previously. And I resent your implication of me doing such a thing I am fully aware of the rules regarding virtual logging!

 

You suggested they log a discovery with a "current date", i.e. not the actual date they saw the coin. This would make it a virtual log.

Link to comment

You know the answer to all of this is to just request to discover the coin again, Ask the new owner that since you discovered this coin in the past, if they would not mind you discovering it again with a current date. That would make everyone happy.

 

Not possible, unless of course the coin owner is willing to meet with all of the people who had their logs deleted. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a virtual log, likely to get the coin locked completely. Hopefully not a practice that you're using with any of your many geocoins.

No, They have already seen this coin, the owner is not handing out the tracking # to everybody, just those who logged it previously. And I resent your implication of me doing such a thing I am fully aware of the rules regarding virtual logging!

 

if they are willing to let them relog the coin then what was the point

of deleting them in the 1st place

why were they not just left on there

Because, The new owner has initiated a new activation date and and new starting point, so they don't want logs predating the activation. That's why. simple really

Link to comment

RULES AND REGUALTIONS ERODE FREEDOM - I will be definitely voting NO on this if it comes to that!

 

Finally something that I agree with you about.

 

However, unfortunately, the time comes for rules and regulations when free people start doing things that degrade the lives of others. In this case, you exercising your freedom is causing other people to lose something that they clearly care a great deal about. If you were to use your freedom more responsibly, perhaps the need for rules and regulations wouldn't be coming to fruition at this point.

 

You gain nothing by deleting logs. Absolutely nothing. Your coin is worth nothing more, nothing less. It is still worth what it was worth when you bought it with the logs. Others, however, lose icons, discoveries, miles, etc. when you delete logs. This is one of the many, many reasons that have been brought to light in this very thread as to why what you and your friends are doing is wrong and irresponsible.

You'd think I caused the world to crash from being in favor of allowing a new coin owner to delete a simple TFT discovery log. Give me a break. Let's get this back into prospective, it is only an Icon, it does not affect your life in any way.

 

 

Weird, I was thinking the same thing. Only, rather than an icon, I was thinking that it was only a couple of discoveries, it does not affect your life in any way. So yes, let's please do get this back into perspective. What is the big deal about a few meaningless discoveries that do not affect your life in any way?

Link to comment

 

No, They have already seen this coin, the owner is not handing out the tracking # to everybody, just those who logged it previously. And I resent your implication of me doing such a thing I am fully aware of the rules regarding virtual logging!

 

You suggested they log a discovery with a "current date", i.e. not the actual date they saw the coin. This would make it a virtual log.

Not in my opinion - they saw the coin, does not matter that they log it now.

 

If it is only the icon they are worried about, would not matter the date of their log of discovery.

 

The new owner is happy because the discover log is a current date and the previous discoverer is happy cause he has his icon back. every body wins!

Edited by GeoMinions
Link to comment

 

No, They have already seen this coin, the owner is not handing out the tracking # to everybody, just those who logged it previously. And I resent your implication of me doing such a thing I am fully aware of the rules regarding virtual logging!

 

You suggested they log a discovery with a "current date", i.e. not the actual date they saw the coin. This would make it a virtual log.

Not in my opinion - they saw the coin, does not matter that they log it now.

 

If it is only the icon they are worried about, would not matter the date of their log of discovery.

 

The new owner is happy because the discover log is a current date and the previous discoverer is happy cause he has his icon back. every body wins!

 

Nah. That's still a virtual log. I think we ought to go ahead and give getting a rule instated a shot instead.

Link to comment

RULES AND REGUALTIONS ERODE FREEDOM - I will be definitely voting NO on this if it comes to that!

 

Finally something that I agree with you about.

 

However, unfortunately, the time comes for rules and regulations when free people start doing things that degrade the lives of others. In this case, you exercising your freedom is causing other people to lose something that they clearly care a great deal about. If you were to use your freedom more responsibly, perhaps the need for rules and regulations wouldn't be coming to fruition at this point.

 

You gain nothing by deleting logs. Absolutely nothing. Your coin is worth nothing more, nothing less. It is still worth what it was worth when you bought it with the logs. Others, however, lose icons, discoveries, miles, etc. when you delete logs. This is one of the many, many reasons that have been brought to light in this very thread as to why what you and your friends are doing is wrong and irresponsible.

You'd think I caused the world to crash from being in favor of allowing a new coin owner to delete a simple TFT discovery log. Give me a break. Let's get this back into prospective, it is only an Icon, it does not affect your life in any way.

 

 

Weird, I was thinking the same thing. Only, rather than an icon, I was thinking that it was only a couple of discoveries, it does not affect your life in any way. So yes, let's please do get this back into perspective. What is the big deal about a few meaningless discoveries that do not affect your life in any way?

 

the thing is unless your the actual coin owner and your the one that deleted the logs you dont know

if the logs that were deleted just said TFT discovery log.

 

but i belive this isnt just about a simple TFT log this is about deleting a log that someone else had discovered the coin either in a cache or at an event.

Link to comment

RULES AND REGUALTIONS ERODE FREEDOM - I will be definitely voting NO on this if it comes to that!

 

Finally something that I agree with you about.

 

However, unfortunately, the time comes for rules and regulations when free people start doing things that degrade the lives of others. In this case, you exercising your freedom is causing other people to lose something that they clearly care a great deal about. If you were to use your freedom more responsibly, perhaps the need for rules and regulations wouldn't be coming to fruition at this point.

 

You gain nothing by deleting logs. Absolutely nothing. Your coin is worth nothing more, nothing less. It is still worth what it was worth when you bought it with the logs. Others, however, lose icons, discoveries, miles, etc. when you delete logs. This is one of the many, many reasons that have been brought to light in this very thread as to why what you and your friends are doing is wrong and irresponsible.

You'd think I caused the world to crash from being in favor of allowing a new coin owner to delete a simple TFT discovery log. Give me a break. Let's get this back into prospective, it is only an Icon, it does not affect your life in any way.

 

 

Weird, I was thinking the same thing. Only, rather than an icon, I was thinking that it was only a couple of discoveries, it does not affect your life in any way. So yes, let's please do get this back into perspective. What is the big deal about a few meaningless discoveries that do not affect your life in any way?

See post above, logs would predate the activation -

Link to comment

RULES AND REGUALTIONS ERODE FREEDOM - I will be definitely voting NO on this if it comes to that!

 

Finally something that I agree with you about.

 

However, unfortunately, the time comes for rules and regulations when free people start doing things that degrade the lives of others. In this case, you exercising your freedom is causing other people to lose something that they clearly care a great deal about. If you were to use your freedom more responsibly, perhaps the need for rules and regulations wouldn't be coming to fruition at this point.

 

You gain nothing by deleting logs. Absolutely nothing. Your coin is worth nothing more, nothing less. It is still worth what it was worth when you bought it with the logs. Others, however, lose icons, discoveries, miles, etc. when you delete logs. This is one of the many, many reasons that have been brought to light in this very thread as to why what you and your friends are doing is wrong and irresponsible.

You'd think I caused the world to crash from being in favor of allowing a new coin owner to delete a simple TFT discovery log. Give me a break. Let's get this back into prospective, it is only an Icon, it does not affect your life in any way.

 

 

Weird, I was thinking the same thing. Only, rather than an icon, I was thinking that it was only a couple of discoveries, it does not affect your life in any way. So yes, let's please do get this back into perspective. What is the big deal about a few meaningless discoveries that do not affect your life in any way?

 

the thing is unless your the actual coin owner and your the one that deleted the logs you dont know

if the logs that were deleted just said TFT discovery log.

 

but i belive this isnt just about a simple TFT log this is about deleting a log that someone else had discovered the coin either in a cache or at an event.

well you are incorrect. the logs were discovery logs from an event only. the coin NEVER moved to a cache.

Link to comment

And you are welcome to debate - that's what this thread is for.

 

I think people latch on to terms.

 

For example, I could pick apart the use of the word "earned" when you said "...honestly earned icon".

What did you do to EARN it? You saw it in a book or in somebody's hand.

That person paid for it and has "earned" the right to do what they want with the logs.

(I'm playing Devil's Advocate here...)

 

As long as the discussion remains civil, there's no reason that this thread cannot/will not continue as an exchange of ideas and opinions.

 

In my personal opinion, gains are only achieved through (civil) disagreement and debate.

 

I "earned" it by honestly seeing, handling (although physically touching isn't always done) and discussing the coin and noting the tracking number down...then posting a log, per the rules of discovering a trackable. Granted, no money exchanges hands and no taxing physical work is involved, but it is earned none the less. Seeing it in a book or in somebody's hand is currently all that is required to "earn" an icon. Does that make my claim on that icon any less than the new owner's claim to have a clean webpage? Because after all, I'm not saying the new owner isn't entitled to the coin that he/she purchased. I'm questioning whether they have the right to a clean webpage that they do not own...and I am still questioning it...

 

And I agree with your personal opinion :)

Link to comment

i agree its a opinion and noone will change the way they see it.

no reason to get all tore up about it.

 

The part of your statement I bolded is not true. I don't delete logs, but currently hold the opinion that owners should be able to. That isn't a firm opinion, though, and I am reading the various thoughts expressed here with interest because there may be a middle ground that I may ultimately choose to support.

 

Even with issues I have firm opinions about, I listen to other points of view. Sometimes a point is made that was not considered previously, and an adjustment to my stand, whether it be slight or major, is warranted.

Link to comment

GeoMinions, seriously now, do you have anything to say for reasoning that the practice of deleting logs from coins should be allowed other than what you've said already? I've read through your posts, and what I come away with is pretty much something along the lines of "because I don't want them", or "because I can". Are there any other compelling reasons that we should hear about?

Link to comment

RULES AND REGUALTIONS ERODE FREEDOM - I will be definitely voting NO on this if it comes to that!

 

Finally something that I agree with you about.

 

However, unfortunately, the time comes for rules and regulations when free people start doing things that degrade the lives of others. In this case, you exercising your freedom is causing other people to lose something that they clearly care a great deal about. If you were to use your freedom more responsibly, perhaps the need for rules and regulations wouldn't be coming to fruition at this point.

 

You gain nothing by deleting logs. Absolutely nothing. Your coin is worth nothing more, nothing less. It is still worth what it was worth when you bought it with the logs. Others, however, lose icons, discoveries, miles, etc. when you delete logs. This is one of the many, many reasons that have been brought to light in this very thread as to why what you and your friends are doing is wrong and irresponsible.

You'd think I caused the world to crash from being in favor of allowing a new coin owner to delete a simple TFT discovery log. Give me a break. Let's get this back into prospective, it is only an Icon, it does not affect your life in any way.

 

 

Weird, I was thinking the same thing. Only, rather than an icon, I was thinking that it was only a couple of discoveries, it does not affect your life in any way. So yes, let's please do get this back into perspective. What is the big deal about a few meaningless discoveries that do not affect your life in any way?

 

the thing is unless your the actual coin owner and your the one that deleted the logs you dont know

if the logs that were deleted just said TFT discovery log.

 

but i belive this isnt just about a simple TFT log this is about deleting a log that someone else had discovered the coin either in a cache or at an event.

well you are incorrect. the logs were discovery logs from an event only. the coin NEVER moved to a cache.

 

my point was unless YOU actually deleted them your self then YOU dont know that the logs that were deleted were discovery only. (talking about the logs thats this thread was started for)

because the logs were deleted before this thread started

Link to comment

i agree its a opinion and noone will change the way they see it.

no reason to get all tore up about it.

 

The part of your statement I bolded is not true. I don't delete logs, but currently hold the opinion that owners should be able to. That isn't a firm opinion, though, and I am reading the various thoughts expressed here with interest because there may be a middle ground that I may ultimately choose to support.

 

Even with issues I have firm opinions about, I listen to other points of view. Sometimes a point is made that was not considered previously, and an adjustment to my stand, whether it be slight or major, is warranted.

 

i do agree but i was talking about when 2 people have 2 opinions most of the time neither one will change there point of view.

but you are correct and i stand corrected

thanks

Edited by mlrs1996
Link to comment

RULES AND REGUALTIONS ERODE FREEDOM - I will be definitely voting NO on this if it comes to that!

 

Finally something that I agree with you about.

 

However, unfortunately, the time comes for rules and regulations when free people start doing things that degrade the lives of others. In this case, you exercising your freedom is causing other people to lose something that they clearly care a great deal about. If you were to use your freedom more responsibly, perhaps the need for rules and regulations wouldn't be coming to fruition at this point.

 

You gain nothing by deleting logs. Absolutely nothing. Your coin is worth nothing more, nothing less. It is still worth what it was worth when you bought it with the logs. Others, however, lose icons, discoveries, miles, etc. when you delete logs. This is one of the many, many reasons that have been brought to light in this very thread as to why what you and your friends are doing is wrong and irresponsible.

You'd think I caused the world to crash from being in favor of allowing a new coin owner to delete a simple TFT discovery log. Give me a break. Let's get this back into prospective, it is only an Icon, it does not affect your life in any way.

 

 

Weird, I was thinking the same thing. Only, rather than an icon, I was thinking that it was only a couple of discoveries, it does not affect your life in any way. So yes, let's please do get this back into perspective. What is the big deal about a few meaningless discoveries that do not affect your life in any way?

 

the thing is unless your the actual coin owner and your the one that deleted the logs you dont know

if the logs that were deleted just said TFT discovery log.

 

but i belive this isnt just about a simple TFT log this is about deleting a log that someone else had discovered the coin either in a cache or at an event.

well you are incorrect. the logs were discovery logs from an event only. the coin NEVER moved to a cache.

 

my point was unless YOU actually deleted them your self then YOU dont know that the logs that were deleted were discovery only. (talking about the logs thats this thread was started for)

because the logs were deleted before this thread started

According to Eartha Above, they were only discovery logs

Link to comment

GeoMinions, seriously now, do you have anything to say for reasoning that the practice of deleting logs from coins should be allowed other than what you've said already? I've read through your posts, and what I come away with is pretty much something along the lines of "because I don't want them", or "because I can". Are there any other compelling reasons that we should hear about?

 

I have tried to explain it to you and everybody else.

If I buy or trade for a pre-activated coin I first check to see how many logs are on it, I will ask the previous owner what kind of logs are on it. If there are none, which is what I prefer, I am more interested and if there only a few discovery logs then I will consider purchasing it. I like coins that I can start out anew, no logs so if I can delete a few discovery logs to make the coin mine then I will do it. I set a new start date on the coin and a new place of origin and erase it's history. I then hold onto the coin for awhile before releasing a proxy.

I do have a few coins that I have purchased that already have proxies and are traveling, I knew this when I bought them and would not erase their history because they have a real history, not just one single event with a few discoveries.

Link to comment

You know the answer to all of this is to just request to discover the coin again, Ask the new owner that since you discovered this coin in the past, if they would not mind you discovering it again with a current date. That would make everyone happy.

 

Not possible, unless of course the coin owner is willing to meet with all of the people who had their logs deleted. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a virtual log, likely to get the coin locked completely. Hopefully not a practice that you're using with any of your many geocoins.

No, They have already seen this coin, the owner is not handing out the tracking # to everybody, just those who logged it previously. And I resent your implication of me doing such a thing I am fully aware of the rules regarding virtual logging!

 

if they are willing to let them relog the coin then what was the point

of deleting them in the 1st place

why were they not just left on there

Because, The new owner has initiated a new activation date and and new starting point, so they don't want logs predating the activation. That's why. simple really

I say don't be so cheap and buy unactivatied coins and you wouldn't have any drama. :rolleyes::laughing:

Link to comment

GeoMinions, seriously now, do you have anything to say for reasoning that the practice of deleting logs from coins should be allowed other than what you've said already? I've read through your posts, and what I come away with is pretty much something along the lines of "because I don't want them", or "because I can". Are there any other compelling reasons that we should hear about?

 

I have tried to explain it to you and everybody else.

If I buy or trade for a pre-activated coin I first check to see how many logs are on it, I will ask the previous owner what kind of logs are on it. If there are none, which is what I prefer, I am more interested and if there only a few discovery logs then I will consider purchasing it. I like coins that I can start out anew, no logs so if I can delete a few discovery logs to make the coin mine then I will do it. I set a new start date on the coin and a new place of origin and erase it's history. I then hold onto the coin for awhile before releasing a proxy.

I do have a few coins that I have purchased that already have proxies and are traveling, I knew this when I bought them and would not erase their history because they have a real history, not just one single event with a few discoveries.

 

Ok, I have read this three times now, to make sure I understand it.

 

Now, please answer this: what is the problem with the coin having prior discover logs? How does that affect the way the geocoin is perceived, the way it travels, or the way that it is discovered? Why do you want them gone so badly that you are willing to anger and/or upset those whose logs get deleted, prompting a discussion the magnitude of one that this has become?

Link to comment

GeoMinions, seriously now, do you have anything to say for reasoning that the practice of deleting logs from coins should be allowed other than what you've said already? I've read through your posts, and what I come away with is pretty much something along the lines of "because I don't want them", or "because I can". Are there any other compelling reasons that we should hear about?

 

I don't know if it is compelling enough, but here is one reason that you may not have thought about. Geocoin TBWZGB

 

9Key originally owned and activated this coin. He stored it in an archived geocache, Poker Face. Avroair aquired the coin and sold it to me. I dropped it at an event and now it is happily exploring Germany. The history shows over 8,000 miles with movement beginning with drop #1 in Texas.

 

However, this coin did not arrive in California from Texas via geocaching. Those 1000 miles were actually earned through the US Postal Service. And this coin began its geocaching journey in California.

 

Now, I love the coin's history and would not delete the logs. But because I did not, its history is not accurate. I can understand if a different owner in my place may have chosen to delete those logs to have the miles and travel reflect accurately in the geocoin's history.

Edited by aka Momster
Link to comment

<snip>

I set a new start date on the coin and a new place of origin and erase it's history. I then hold onto the coin for awhile before releasing a proxy.

I do have a few coins that I have purchased that already have proxies and are traveling, I knew this when I bought them and would not erase their history because they have a real history, not just one single event with a few discoveries.

 

If I am not badly mistaken, releasing a proxy without having ever released the original coin first, IS actually against Groundspeak rules.

Link to comment

GeoMinions, seriously now, do you have anything to say for reasoning that the practice of deleting logs from coins should be allowed other than what you've said already? I've read through your posts, and what I come away with is pretty much something along the lines of "because I don't want them", or "because I can". Are there any other compelling reasons that we should hear about?

 

I have tried to explain it to you and everybody else.

If I buy or trade for a pre-activated coin I first check to see how many logs are on it, I will ask the previous owner what kind of logs are on it. If there are none, which is what I prefer, I am more interested and if there only a few discovery logs then I will consider purchasing it. I like coins that I can start out anew, no logs so if I can delete a few discovery logs to make the coin mine then I will do it. I set a new start date on the coin and a new place of origin and erase it's history. I then hold onto the coin for awhile before releasing a proxy.

I do have a few coins that I have purchased that already have proxies and are traveling, I knew this when I bought them and would not erase their history because they have a real history, not just one single event with a few discoveries.

A proxy with real history... Now that's funny. It's not even the real coin. I still do not see a reason to delete previous discoveries. A discovery is a discovery either in a cache or an event. Your're cheating cachers on a ligetimate discovery and their icon thingy. Makes no sense at all.

Link to comment

Yup I started this thread and yup it was just a discovery of a coin that was brought to a cache event by a friend of mine.

 

DJ. Rock created a very nice wooden display case for his collection. Funny thing is I was a new cacher at the time and this was my first event where there were really any coins. I attended the event and logged discoveries on quite a few coins that day. After that I became quite addicted to collecting and have purchased many coins and sent out a few on missions. I no longer have the finances to buy a lot of coins, but I do stay active in the hobby and will admit to collecting discoveries and icons as I appreciate the artwork put into coin icons just as much as the coins,

 

Now one concern I have is that my thread began with my stating i was annoyed with a log deletion and quickly progressed into a discussion of whether it was appropriate for a log to be deleted. I don't think so and I have presented my thoughts on this several times in the thread. What I find amusing is the number of times the brevity of my log or the fact that it had no miles is discounted and used as an argument against my position.

 

I believe these responses lie in the logical falicy category of character assasination in that if you don't like my argument attack me for a boring log or just an icon collector and setup a way to avoid the debate by disregarding the person who made the argument

 

I would be much more prone to listening to some of the counter arguments if they were well thought out responses rather than simple dismissals and as FSM mentioned earlier, this discussion is not about a single coin or log but the practice in general

 

So I vote for continuing the discussion but let's make it about the entire practice

Edited by teamhaynes
Link to comment

GeoMinions, seriously now, do you have anything to say for reasoning that the practice of deleting logs from coins should be allowed other than what you've said already? I've read through your posts, and what I come away with is pretty much something along the lines of "because I don't want them", or "because I can". Are there any other compelling reasons that we should hear about?

 

I don't know if it is compelling enough, but here is one reason that you may not have thought about. Geocoin TBWZGB

 

9Key originally owned and activated this coin. He stored it in an archived geocache, Poker Face. Avroair aquired the coin and sold it to me. I dropped it at an event and now it is happily exploring Germany. The history shows over 8,000 miles with movement beginning with drop #1 in Texas.

 

However, this coin did not arrive in California from Texas via geocaching. Those 1000 miles were actually earned through the US Postal Service. And this coin began its geocaching journey in California.

 

Now, I love the coin's history and would not delete the logs. But because I did not, its history is not accurate. I can understand if a different owner in my place may have chosen to delete those logs to have the miles and travel reflect accurately in the geocoin's history.

I didn't realize there were ways to actually earn miles. Once the coin is active and moving the miles should be calculated no matter how the coin is moved. The coin went to one cacher and then to another, thus collecting the miles along the way. So the history is correct. Are you saying if I gave my father-in-law(not a cacher) one of my coins to drop in NC that the miles would be incorrect. Or are you saying that a "cacher" has to move the coin?

Link to comment

 

And if the log owner did not receive a log deletion notice they would not even be aware of it being archived.

 

While I do not have a dog in this fight, I have enjoyed those post that are well though-out and clearly conveyed. I do take issue with the above statement because I do keep my stats using GSAK among other tools and would certianly notice if one of my unique trackable "finds" were to suddenly vanish. While I do have several "discovers", I take more joy in actually moving GCs and TBs along their way; The icons are a pleasant bonus.

 

As for the used car analogy, I agree New vs Used = Unactivated vs Activated. Therefore, deleting the previous logs = rolling back the mileage on the used car to presumably increase its worth.

 

However, that's a false "worth". The car/coin still has the mileage/history...it's just been hidden.

 

Exactly my point (and why I used the term presumably). Anyone who pays a little more for an activated "no logs" coin is obviously not thinking clearly, since logs are so easily "rolled-back".

Apparently you have not read the previous posts, this coin had NO Mileage, it had not traveled it was only seen at one event and I as I have stated before those are the only type of logs I delete and the coin was never handled by anyone, so no vested interest. There is no mileage erased at all. as the new owner I like having this option and I believe I have the right to get rid of these 'boring' logs.

 

"No Mileage does not equal No History. What you call a "boring log" may be an important milestone to somebody.

 

Just because you have the "right" to do something does not mean it is the right thing to do.

Link to comment

GeoMinions, seriously now, do you have anything to say for reasoning that the practice of deleting logs from coins should be allowed other than what you've said already? I've read through your posts, and what I come away with is pretty much something along the lines of "because I don't want them", or "because I can". Are there any other compelling reasons that we should hear about?

 

I don't know if it is compelling enough, but here is one reason that you may not have thought about. Geocoin TBWZGB

 

9Key originally owned and activated this coin. He stored it in an archived geocache, Poker Face. Avroair aquired the coin and sold it to me. I dropped it at an event and now it is happily exploring Germany. The history shows over 8,000 miles with movement beginning with drop #1 in Texas.

 

However, this coin did not arrive in California from Texas via geocaching. Those 1000 miles were actually earned through the US Postal Service. And this coin began its geocaching journey in California.

 

Now, I love the coin's history and would not delete the logs. But because I did not, its history is not accurate. I can understand if a different owner in my place may have chosen to delete those logs to have the miles and travel reflect accurately in the geocoin's history.

I didn't realize there were ways to actually earn miles. Once the coin is active and moving the miles should be calculated no matter how the coin is moved. The coin went to one cacher and then to another, thus collecting the miles along the way. So the history is correct. Are you saying if I gave my father-in-law(not a cacher) one of my coins to drop in NC that the miles would be incorrect. Or are you saying that a "cacher" has to move the coin?

 

If I activate a coin, dip it into a cache here, then mail it to someone in Europe, no. I do not consider those miles to be a legitimate part of the journey mileage.

 

If I activate a coin, dip it into a cache here, then hand it to another geocacher or carry it on a plane myself, to Europe, then yes. I consider it to be a part of the coin's journey.

 

To me, a trackable's travels should be from cache/geocacher to cache/geocacher. Otherwise, we may as well just mail them all to complete their missions. It certainly would be easier! :D

 

Edit: To remove confusing bit. Exceptions would be some forum missions etc. have different types of mission goals that I would, in some cases, consider legitimate miles to the intended travels for individual coins.

Edited by aka Momster
Link to comment

GeoMinions, seriously now, do you have anything to say for reasoning that the practice of deleting logs from coins should be allowed other than what you've said already? I've read through your posts, and what I come away with is pretty much something along the lines of "because I don't want them", or "because I can". Are there any other compelling reasons that we should hear about?

 

I don't know if it is compelling enough, but here is one reason that you may not have thought about. Geocoin TBWZGB

 

9Key originally owned and activated this coin. He stored it in an archived geocache, Poker Face. Avroair aquired the coin and sold it to me. I dropped it at an event and now it is happily exploring Germany. The history shows over 8,000 miles with movement beginning with drop #1 in Texas.

 

However, this coin did not arrive in California from Texas via geocaching. Those 1000 miles were actually earned through the US Postal Service. And this coin began its geocaching journey in California.

 

Now, I love the coin's history and would not delete the logs. But because I did not, its history is not accurate. I can understand if a different owner in my place may have chosen to delete those logs to have the miles and travel reflect accurately in the geocoin's history.

I didn't realize there were ways to actually earn miles. Once the coin is active and moving the miles should be calculated no matter how the coin is moved. The coin went to one cacher and then to another, thus collecting the miles along the way. So the history is correct. Are you saying if I gave my father-in-law(not a cacher) one of my coins to drop in NC that the miles would be incorrect. Or are you saying that a "cacher" has to move the coin?

 

If I activate a coin, dip it into a cache here, then mail it to someone in Europe, no. I do not consider those miles to be a legitimate part of the journey mileage.

 

If I activate a coin, dip it into a cache here, then hand it to another geocacher or carry it on a plane myself, to Europe, then yes. I consider it to be a part of the coin's journey.

 

To me, a trackable's travels should be from cache/geocacher to cache/geocacher. (Purchases and forum missions aside) Otherwise, we may as well just mail them all to complete their missions. It certainly would be easier! :D

Right on. I think the mail part is cheesy now that I think about it. :laughing:

Link to comment

Say I purchase a Parking Facility, and there are a handful of vehicles parked there. I have new plans for this facility - I want to resurface it or use it in a different manner so I am going to have these cars removed off my Property. Same thing with a coin I have purchased with my own money it belongs to me, it is my property, and if your log is parked there, and the log is in the past before I owned the coin then I will consider having them removed, of course as I reiterated before, they would only be discover logs from events where the coin has not traveled and the discoverers have not spent anytime with the coin but only viewed for a few seconds then I will probably delete the logs.

And if the log owner did not receive a log deletion notice they would not even be aware of it being archived.

 

using this logic, I certainly hope you never purchase the Declaration of Independence and start deleting Ben Franklins and John Hancocks signatures from it beacause you want to start it over again... same could be said for the Vietnam War Memorial, I'd hate for you to start deleting the history there... or Mount Rushmore...or,or, or....the list goes on, but lets make it fit geocoins and trackables....

 

lets suppose you had the oportunity to purchase the first geocoin ( Mnt10bike's 001) or the OCB (Original Can of Beans) or an opportunity to adopt the last APE cache. Would you want to delete the log history of those trackables/cache simply because you could because you are the "new" owner and wanted to start them from scratch again? I'm guessing not, so why is it so important to delete the logs and history of any other trackable with a history?

 

I'd personally be pissed if you acquired several coins I have discovered and started deleting my discovery of them, as many of them are rare enough that I may never see another one unless I run across an 'old school' geocoin collector that has managed not to liquidate their collection over the past few years...

If you want coins without a history then I would suggest not buying activated coins. You may not see it at cheating anyone out of anything but an icon, but the person that discovered it may see it as something more, like a special occasion or event and meeting some special people at the time. Unless you were there, you don't know and shouldn't try rewriting the history of the coin because it satisfies your desire to do so...

Link to comment

So it is what I thought it was. There is no rationale here to the opposing side of this argument. Now it's spite, as is made evident by the last post made by GeoMinion, but even before that, it was simply "because." No good, decent, rational reason.

 

I, for one, am glad that we got this hashed out.

Link to comment

This is So Far Out, it does not warrant even reading.

 

you're entitled to your opinion, even if it smells bad. However I expect reactions like this when a valid point is made and a valid rebuttal can't be.

 

BTW, you missed re-activating your dates and launch point on your *removed by moderator*... It shows as being activated in 2006 and launched from Washington, that's roughly 3 years before you started caching... I'm sure you overlooked that when the history logs were deleted... then again, it may have not had any history, no one will ever know will they?

 

After it's all said and done, Nothing is going to change your way of thinking, and you're entitled to do what you want with your coins, however you can't expect folks to agree with you or like it...

Edited by Eartha
Link to comment

I definitely fall in the camp of not deleting logs on adopted coins.

 

  • Deleting the logs has no bearing on the value of a coin if you are collecting it.
  • I personally believe it is rude to the rest of the community to delete the history.

 

I have recently adopted several coins and while I have changed the mission, adjusted the name and the coin page I intentionally left the logs alone. I like the idea of a tick box or radial button selection whereby a new owner may indicate whether they want a fresh slate or allow the existing logs to remain. But even if they choose a fresh slate my personal take is the logs should remain in some sort of archived state where they cannot by deleted.

Link to comment

So it is what I thought it was. There is no rationale here to the opposing side of this argument. Now it's spite, as is made evident by the last post made by GeoMinion, but even before that, it was simply "because." No good, decent, rational reason.

 

I, for one, am glad that we got this hashed out.

 

:( I was genuinely interested about your thoughts on what I wrote. Not to argue; I don't delete the logs myself anyway. But I thought I brought up a rational point in my example. A number of coins I have purchased, and sometimes passed on to other cachers, have the same issue.

Link to comment

:( I was genuinely interested about your thoughts on what I wrote. Not to argue; I don't delete the logs myself anyway. But I thought I brought up a rational point in my example. A number of coins I have purchased, and sometimes passed on to other cachers, have the same issue.

 

Momster, I sat and typed out a reply to what you wrote earlier, and I have no idea what happened to it. There was nothing in it that would have warranted deleting, so maybe I just never hit the post button. My apologies, it is an interesting topic.

 

 

I don't know if it is compelling enough, but here is one reason that you may not have thought about. Geocoin TBWZGB

 

9Key originally owned and activated this coin. He stored it in an archived geocache, Poker Face. Avroair aquired the coin and sold it to me. I dropped it at an event and now it is happily exploring Germany. The history shows over 8,000 miles with movement beginning with drop #1 in Texas.

 

However, this coin did not arrive in California from Texas via geocaching. Those 1000 miles were actually earned through the US Postal Service. And this coin began its geocaching journey in California.

 

Now, I love the coin's history and would not delete the logs. But because I did not, its history is not accurate. I can understand if a different owner in my place may have chosen to delete those logs to have the miles and travel reflect accurately in the geocoin's history.

 

I'm not entirely sure that I agree that its history is inaccurate as a result of the way that it's logged. The coin did indeed start in Texas, and got its start there. And then, if I'm understanding it correctly, it actually was in California. So it did go from Texas to California, although not via geocaching/geocacher.

 

Truth be told, and as I've stated in the other thread on this same topic, I'm not advocating for coin owners to never be able to delete logs and manipulate their coins. I'm just against deleting logs that put the coin with a cacher, be it discoveries or moving logs. So long as something is left that keeps the coin with that cacher, the rest should continue to be up to the coin owner.

 

The other example that was brought up was a whole bunch of (what the coin owner considered) useless "took it to" logs, and whether or not those should be allowed to be deleted. That, I could care less about. The only thing that will be affected by that is the coins mileage. As long as the discovery logs are left alone, and the "grabbed it" logs are left alone, the rest really should be up to the coin owner.

Link to comment

Here is where this thread stands at this point:

 

Groundspeak has been made aware of this discussion and may or may not choose to participate in the discussion at some point. This stuff doesn't happen in real-time though so be patient if they don't post first thing in the morning or even for a few days.

 

It sounds like a feature request has been put in by at least one user.

 

A few people are causing this thread to get a bit personal with name calling and petty remarks or dominating the conversation.

 

I think this thread warrants staying open so the discussion can continue, but I don't like the way it's heading right now so here is what I am going to do:

- Leave the thread open

- Tell the following people to not post in this thread for the next day (basically 24 hours from this post so it takes into account time zones, etc.):

**G & C

**GeoMinions

**LionsLair

(I'm trying to be nice and polite here, but don't take this as a request. Please obey this directive and don't force Eartha or I to issue suspensions which would prevent you from posting anywhere)

- Direct everybody to talk about the practice in general and stop directing comments towards GeoMinions - they have obviously made their decision and they don't 'owe' anybody an explanation, like it or not

- Remind everybody that telling people they are "ignorant" (or similar comments) are not acceptable

 

This is obviously a topic that warrants discussion so let's do so in a constructive manner. If somebody disagrees with you, it doesn't make them "stupid", "cheap" or even "wrong". It simply means you have different opinions.

 

So feel free to post on why you think it's OK to delete logs or why you don't think it's OK, but leave individual people out of it as well as any veiled attacks on anybody's character.

 

Gracias. Mahalo. Kamsa hamnida. Danke. Merci. Grazie. Obrigado. Spasibo.

Edited by Flying Spaghetti Monster
Link to comment

Here is where this thread stands at this point:

 

Groundspeak has been made aware of this discussion and may or may not choose to participate in the discussion at some point. This stuff doesn't happen in real-time though so be patient if they don't post first thing in the morning or even for a few days.

 

It sounds like a feature request has been put in by at least one user.

 

A few people are causing this thread to get a bit personal with name calling and petty remarks or dominating the conversation.

 

I think this thread warrants staying open so the discussion can continue, but I don't like the way it's heading right now so here is what I am going to do:

- Leave the thread open

- Tell the following people to not post in this thread for the next day (basically 24 hours from this post so it takes into account time zones, etc.):

**G & C

**GeoMinions

**LionsLair

(I'm trying to be nice and polite here, but don't take this as a request. Please obey this directive and don't force Eartha or I to issue suspensions which would prevent you from posting anywhere)

- Direct everybody to talk about the practice in general and stop directing comments towards GeoMinions - they have obviously made their decision and they don't 'owe' anybody an explanation, like it or not

- Remind everybody that telling people they are "ignorant" (or similar comments) are not acceptable

 

This is obviously a topic that warrants discussion so let's do so in a constructive manner. If somebody disagrees with you, it doesn't make them "stupid", "cheap" or even "wrong". It simply means you have different opinions.

 

So feel free to post on why you think it's OK to delete logs or why you don't think it's OK, but leave individual people out of it as well as any veiled attacks on anybody's character.

 

Gracias. Mahalo. Kamsa hamnida. Danke. Merci. Grazie. Obrigado. Spasibo.

 

I have been trolling this forum thread today and it would appear to me that G&C and Lions Lair are the bigger offenders. Geominions was just defending themselves.

Link to comment

Say I purchase a Parking Facility, and there are a handful of vehicles parked there. I have new plans for this facility - I want to resurface it or use it in a different manner so I am going to have these cars removed off my Property. Same thing with a coin I have purchased with my own money it belongs to me, it is my property, and if your log is parked there, and the log is in the past before I owned the coin then I will consider having them removed, of course as I reiterated before, they would only be discover logs from events where the coin has not traveled and the discoverers have not spent anytime with the coin but only viewed for a few seconds then I will probably delete the logs.

And if the log owner did not receive a log deletion notice they would not even be aware of it being archived.

 

using this logic, I certainly hope you never purchase the Declaration of Independence and start deleting Ben Franklins and John Hancocks signatures from it beacause you want to start it over again... same could be said for the Vietnam War Memorial, I'd hate for you to start deleting the history there... or Mount Rushmore...or,or, or....the list goes on, but lets make it fit geocoins and trackables....

 

lets suppose you had the oportunity to purchase the first geocoin ( Mnt10bike's 001) or the OCB (Original Can of Beans) or an opportunity to adopt the last APE cache. Would you want to delete the log history of those trackables/cache simply because you could because you are the "new" owner and wanted to start them from scratch again? I'm guessing not, so why is it so important to delete the logs and history of any other trackable with a history?

 

I'd personally be pissed if you acquired several coins I have discovered and started deleting my discovery of them, as many of them are rare enough that I may never see another one unless I run across an 'old school' geocoin collector that has managed not to liquidate their collection over the past few years...

If you want coins without a history then I would suggest not buying activated coins. You may not see it at cheating anyone out of anything but an icon, but the person that discovered it may see it as something more, like a special occasion or event and meeting some special people at the time. Unless you were there, you don't know and shouldn't try rewriting the history of the coin because it satisfies your desire to do so...

Like I said, I only do log deletions of Discoveries made at an Event, not discovery logs on coins that are moving. But if I purchase a coin that you discovered at an event, it could happen.

The thing I find sad about this logic is this...I am a collector of geocoins. Some of them are sorta special, some not so much. I have friends and I know other cachers whom I have merely met who can't afford to purchase geocoins. Many of them have expressed that they enjoy the discovery of the coins at events to which I have taken them. For many of them, this is the only way they will ever see these coins or "collect" the icon for them. I just don't think it's fair to delete the logs once they have been logged because that takes away from another cacher's history.

 

I definitely would like to see Groundspeak address this issue concerning trackables. There is clearly a guideline concerning deleting legitimate cache logs; I believe there should be a guideline about deleting legitimate trackable logs.

 

Just as an aside...what I find mildly iron about the logic of deleting logs is this - some people seem to think activated geocoins with a log history are less appealing, or worth less, than unactivated coins with no logs. The ironic thing about that is that, once the new owner deletes all the logs and "re-activates" the coin, it is now a "less worthy" coin (in that logic) because it is now activated. The only person who benefited from the "re-activation" is the new owner - to everybody else (using that logic), it is now "less worthy."

Edited by steben6
Link to comment

So let me ask: Has anybody suggested this as a feature request yet or is it just going to be discussed and debated by a few in this thread?

 

i started a suggestion about this

thanks

I can't find the thread for this. Did you put it in the the correct "FEATURE" format?

Link to comment

I may be wrong but it seems to me that the one main issue that keeps coming up is that if the new owner of the coin wipes the history clean it erases the icon and personal log from peoples profile page. What if we suggest to GS that once a log has been made and the icon added to a personal profile page then it is locked on that page regardless of the status of the coins page. So then the list of found/discovered coin icons are seperate from what goes on with the coins page itself. Adding to that you could always have it so when a coin owner cleans the history of a coin then there could be an archived coin history page that accessable by those that have logged it and is not connected to the coin page at all and does not continue to add more to it after the wipe date.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Followers 14
×
×
  • Create New...