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Owner wiped out all logs for geocoin


teamhaynes

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<snip...snip...snip>

 

Actually, the one being 'Cheap' here is not the one that purchases the coin, but the one that discovers it. The purchaser of the geocoin has purchased the right to that icon, but the discovery geocacher has done nothing but look at it.

I for one will not allow discovery logs on some of my trackables if it is done so at an event. I do not go to events to make discovery on geocoins because I don't believe that is an earned icon, and I will delete any logs on my coins where I have asked that the item not to be taken to events. I for one like the liberty of doing so and would not be in favor of the those logs being locked.

 

I think the "cheap" comment was already discussed and apologized for, so I would hope we don't need to continue to address that. You make a very good point though. The one who purchases the coin, be it new or used, does "pay for" the icon. I also recognize your right to request that YOUR coins not be discovered at events. They're your coins and you have the right to request that. However, in the game of geocaching and in extension, geocoining...discovering IS allowed and a reward IS granted for doing so.

The 'Cheap' comment may have been addressed already, but I felt that my view point needed to be made.

Also, The tracking #'s were added to geocoins a few years back at the pleasure of the geocoin owner so they could benefit from watching it being moved by other geocachers. This original idea was strictly for the geocoin owner and not the person that moved it and the original icons for coins were all the same, generic. When the unique Icon was developed and introduced it pretty much created a monster with geocachers wanting to collect these tiny pics. But in reality, the geocoin is owned and so is that icon.

In The original content of this thread it was stated that the only logs removed were discovery logs at a single event. That coin never moved again. With discovery logging at events, alot times the loggers have never really seen the item, they just received a tracking # list to log, and never saw the coin and did not even know what they were logging. The owner of these coins should have the option to get rid of these logs when purchasing an activated coin.

 

OK then, how do you differentiate between those who never saw the geocoin and those who picked it up and turned it over and over in their fingers for several minutes muttering "Wow" "Great geocoin"...?

 

ETA - the later certainly deserve the icon IMO!

Well, the NEW owner would not know this, but it should still be Their Option to keep or remove these logs. You are getting upset with the new owner but they are not the ones getting rid of these coins, maybe before logging a coin at an event you should ask the owner if they plan on keeping this coin forever.

 

That's not feasible. If you want to change peoples minds, you need to come up with something that's at the very least reasonable. Things happen. Folks lose jobs. Guys stop geocaching. People die.

 

I'm still wishing and waiting for one solid reason to come up for continuing to allow deleted logs of the regular variety. Not the mistake logs, not the editing of logs, but the deletion of rightful discovery logs for no apparent reason. It's fine if you want to argue your point, but what exactly is your point?

The point is - I do not have to convince you or anybody else as I am not asking for a rule change, you are. I prefer it to stay the way it is. and far as I am concerned you have not convinced me that it should change because the issue is not vast enough, not everyone removes logs only a very small few do this and from what I have read they are only discovery logs from events nothing more so this to me does not warrant a rule change.

 

Cool. Point taken. You don't want a rule change.

 

I'm not really sure why, if you have things the way you want them, that you continue to post here and stir the hornets nest. Don't get me wrong, it's fine by me. I appreciate you sounding the rally cry for the vast majority that agree with the need for a rule change on this issue. I'm just not sure how it's helping from your perspective.

 

From my side, I just like to debate. These issues are fun for me, IF there's an actual argument to the contrary. That's what I'm trying to find from you, or one of your Oregon counterparts randomly taking part in this thread, one at a time.

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<snip...snip...snip>

 

Actually, the one being 'Cheap' here is not the one that purchases the coin, but the one that discovers it. The purchaser of the geocoin has purchased the right to that icon, but the discovery geocacher has done nothing but look at it.

I for one will not allow discovery logs on some of my trackables if it is done so at an event. I do not go to events to make discovery on geocoins because I don't believe that is an earned icon, and I will delete any logs on my coins where I have asked that the item not to be taken to events. I for one like the liberty of doing so and would not be in favor of the those logs being locked.

 

I think the "cheap" comment was already discussed and apologized for, so I would hope we don't need to continue to address that. You make a very good point though. The one who purchases the coin, be it new or used, does "pay for" the icon. I also recognize your right to request that YOUR coins not be discovered at events. They're your coins and you have the right to request that. However, in the game of geocaching and in extension, geocoining...discovering IS allowed and a reward IS granted for doing so.

The 'Cheap' comment may have been addressed already, but I felt that my view point needed to be made.

Also, The tracking #'s were added to geocoins a few years back at the pleasure of the geocoin owner so they could benefit from watching it being moved by other geocachers. This original idea was strictly for the geocoin owner and not the person that moved it and the original icons for coins were all the same, generic. When the unique Icon was developed and introduced it pretty much created a monster with geocachers wanting to collect these tiny pics. But in reality, the geocoin is owned and so is that icon.

In The original content of this thread it was stated that the only logs removed were discovery logs at a single event. That coin never moved again. With discovery logging at events, alot times the loggers have never really seen the item, they just received a tracking # list to log, and never saw the coin and did not even know what they were logging. The owner of these coins should have the option to get rid of these logs when purchasing an activated coin.

 

OK then, how do you differentiate between those who never saw the geocoin and those who picked it up and turned it over and over in their fingers for several minutes muttering "Wow" "Great geocoin"...?

 

ETA - the later certainly deserve the icon IMO!

Well, the NEW owner would not know this, but it should still be Their Option to keep or remove these logs. You are getting upset with the new owner but they are not the ones getting rid of these coins, maybe before logging a coin at an event you should ask the owner if they plan on keeping this coin forever.

 

That's not feasible. If you want to change peoples minds, you need to come up with something that's at the very least reasonable. Things happen. Folks lose jobs. Guys stop geocaching. People die.

 

I'm still wishing and waiting for one solid reason to come up for continuing to allow deleted logs of the regular variety. Not the mistake logs, not the editing of logs, but the deletion of rightful discovery logs for no apparent reason. It's fine if you want to argue your point, but what exactly is your point?

The point is - I do not have to convince you or anybody else as I am not asking for a rule change, you are. I prefer it to stay the way it is. and far as I am concerned you have not convinced me that it should change because the issue is not vast enough, not everyone removes logs only a very small few do this and from what I have read they are only discovery logs from events nothing more so this to me does not warrant a rule change.

 

Cool. Point taken. You don't want a rule change.

 

I'm not really sure why, if you have things the way you want them, that you continue to post here and stir the hornets nest. Don't get me wrong, it's fine by me. I appreciate you sounding the rally cry for the vast majority that agree with the need for a rule change on this issue. I'm just not sure how it's helping from your perspective.

 

From my side, I just like to debate. These issues are fun for me, IF there's an actual argument to the contrary. That's what I'm trying to find from you, or one of your Oregon counterparts randomly taking part in this thread, one at a time.

well I have noticed that alot of the posters here, that share your point of view, are counterparts of yours. So just because we are from the same area, does not minimize our point of views.

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well I have noticed that alot of the posters here, that share your point of view, are counterparts of yours. So just because we are from the same area, does not minimize our point of views.

 

No you haven't. I've met one person who has posted in this thread. The rest I don't know from Adam.

 

The same can't be said for you, and you are correct that it does not minimize your point of view. It does seem to localize it, however, which was my only point to begin with.

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People, it's not just Keep logs or Delete logs.

Archive them. Players can keep their logs, and icons, and owners can visibly clear off their trackable listing page so it's effectively "new", if they want.

Everyone = happy.

 

eta: 'archive' being a suggested feature, not a current ability

Edited by thebruce0
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Whether it should be Their Option to keep or remove these logs is the matter of discussion here and personally I'm hoping that GS will make a ruling one way or another based on the players opinions. Your opinion seems to be that they should. Mine is that they shouldn't. (Keep in mind that I also have a very strong feeling about the log itself...not JUST the icon.)

 

That being said, I'm not upset with anyone who is still playing by the rules. Currently the rules allow deleting. I want to see that changed to protect EVERYONE'S rights in this game.

Discovery on coins is a Privilege - not a right

 

I would strongly disagree with you there. Why? Because Discovered is an option on the geocoin page - therefore it is a right for anyone who see's that geocoin. Not a privilege. (IMO)

 

(Oh, and I corrected your missing quote marker - you should too in your previous post, otherwise it will cause problems for anyone using Reply on your post. (Your missing the start quote for imoutnabout))

Oh I'm sorry - I was not aware there was 'Bill of Rights' for logging geocoins. Can you send me that link please.

 

Read carefully what people write. I didn't say anything on any 'Bill of Rights'.

 

I was commenting on your use of words - "privilege" and "right". If it were a "privilege" then I would not expect to find "Discover" as an option for logging geocoins - that's the point I was making. It is a privilege for people to share their geocoins. With geocaching when people move or discover a geocoin they have the right to log it as such. Just as the owner has the right to remove some logs from their geocoin, currently.

 

The Geocaching 101 FAQ says the following:

"Discover" the Trackable

When you have seen a Trackable in person, but have not moved it, you can log that you have "discovered" it. ...

 

It says you are allowed to log it as Discovered... sounds like people have the right to do it to me. Again, just my point of view, and you have yours. :)

 

Oh - and you still have not corrected the coding issue from the earlier post.

Edited by keewee
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Whether it should be Their Option to keep or remove these logs is the matter of discussion here and personally I'm hoping that GS will make a ruling one way or another based on the players opinions. Your opinion seems to be that they should. Mine is that they shouldn't. (Keep in mind that I also have a very strong feeling about the log itself...not JUST the icon.)

 

That being said, I'm not upset with anyone who is still playing by the rules. Currently the rules allow deleting. I want to see that changed to protect EVERYONE'S rights in this game.

Discovery on coins is a Privilege - not a right

 

I would strongly disagree with you there. Why? Because Discovered is an option on the geocoin page - therefore it is a right for anyone who see's that geocoin. Not a privilege. (IMO)

 

(Oh, and I corrected your missing quote marker - you should too in your previous post, otherwise it will cause problems for anyone using Reply on your post. (Your missing the start quote for imoutnabout))

Oh I'm sorry - I was not aware there was 'Bill of Rights' for logging geocoins. Can you send me that link please.

 

Read carefully what people write. I didn't say anything on any 'Bill of Rights'.

 

I was commenting on your use of words - "privilege" and "right". If it were a "privilege" then I would not expect to find "Discover" as an option for logging geocoins - that's the point I was making. It is a privilege for people to share their geocoins. With geocaching when people move or discover a geocoin they have the right to log it as such. Just as the owner has the right to remove some logs from their geocoin, currently.

 

The Geocaching 101 FAQ says the following:

"Discover" the Trackable

When you have seen a Trackable in person, but have not moved it, you can log that you have "discovered" it. ...

 

It says you are allowed to log it as Discovered... sounds like people have the right to do it to me. Again, just my point of view, and you have yours. :)

 

Oh - and you still have not corrected the coding issue from the earlier post.

 

I was going to post something similar to keewee's post, quoted from The Geocaching 101 FAQ.

Let me add this from Geocoin FAQ:

 

Geocoin FAQ

What is a Geocoin?

A Geocoin is a special coin created by individuals or groups of geocachers as a kind of signature item or calling card. Like Travel Bug® Trackables, each Geocoin is assigned a unique tracking ID which allows them to travel from geocache to geocache or to be passed amongst friends, picking up stories along the way.

 

The bold is mine. The color change to emphasize my feeling about the importance of the HISTORY of the coins told through the logs.

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People, it's not just Keep logs or Delete logs.

Archive them. Players can keep their logs, and icons, and owners can visibly clear off their trackable listing page so it's effectively "new", if they want.

Everyone = happy.

 

eta: 'archive' being a suggested feature, not a current ability

 

And again, I'll say that I agree. I see no harm and all benefit in your suggestion. Would you post that on the Feature forum? I wouldn't feel right about it since it wasn't my idea...but unless I hear a very good argument against it, I'll back you 100%!

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People, it's not just Keep logs or Delete logs.

Archive them. Players can keep their logs, and icons, and owners can visibly clear off their trackable listing page so it's effectively "new", if they want.

Everyone = happy.

 

eta: 'archive' being a suggested feature, not a current ability

 

And again, I'll say that I agree. I see no harm and all benefit in your suggestion. Would you post that on the Feature forum? I wouldn't feel right about it since it wasn't my idea...but unless I hear a very good argument against it, I'll back you 100%!

 

+1 from me

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.

 

Read carefully what people write. I didn't say anything on any 'Bill of Rights'.

 

I was commenting on your use of words - "privilege" and "right". If it were a "privilege" then I would not expect to find "Discover" as an option for logging geocoins - that's the point I was making. It is a privilege for people to share their geocoins. With geocaching when people move or discover a geocoin they have the right to log it as such. Just as the owner has the right to remove some logs from their geocoin, currently.

 

The Geocaching 101 FAQ says the following:

"Discover" the Trackable

When you have seen a Trackable in person, but have not moved it, you can log that you have "discovered" it. ...

 

It says you are allowed to log it as Discovered... sounds like people have the right to do it to me. Again, just my point of view, and you have yours. :)

 

Oh - and you still have not corrected the coding issue from the earlier post.

 

I was going to post something similar to keewee's post, quoted from The Geocaching 101 FAQ.

Let me add this from Geocoin FAQ:

 

Geocoin FAQ

What is a Geocoin?

A Geocoin is a special coin created by individuals or groups of geocachers as a kind of signature item or calling card. Like Travel Bug® Trackables, each Geocoin is assigned a unique tracking ID which allows them to travel from geocache to geocache or to be passed amongst friends, picking up stories along the way.

 

The bold is mine. The color change to emphasize my feeling about the importance of the HISTORY of the coins told through the logs.

Again - the only logs deleted were discovery logs made at one event, no real colorful history here, the coin was not moved, had no pics taken, no stories, just 'TFTD' logs.

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Not yet. Eventually perhaps. But I have no problem with anyone else passing on the suggestion either. To me it just seems a logical middle ground, though requires seemingly significant development time on GS's part compared to other things I'm sure they're working on or soon to be working on.

I'm just drawn to debate :P

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well I have noticed that alot of the posters here, that share your point of view, are counterparts of yours. So just because we are from the same area, does not minimize our point of views.

 

No you haven't. I've met one person who has posted in this thread. The rest I don't know from Adam.

 

The same can't be said for you, and you are correct that it does not minimize your point of view. It does seem to localize it, however, which was my only point to begin with.

Yes I can make the Same Assertion as you. And being I am from Oregon (BTW,the birthplace of geocaching) maybe my point should carry more weight. J/K of course. :laughing:

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Again - the only logs deleted were discovery logs made at one event, no real colorful history here, the coin was not moved, had no pics taken, no stories, just 'TFTD' logs.

 

The point here is that if *I* discovered a coin, who is anyone else to say that my discovery should not exist? What if it is a very good, important, personal memory I want in my history and stats? If anyone deletes that, I would be very upset. I don't necessarily care who the owner is - I saw that coin, I loved that coin, it's not mine, but I want to keep that log for my own history, really not caring specifically about that item's own history. The discovery here is my log, not the coin's, even though I become a part of the coin's history.

 

There are two perspectives in play here.

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well I have noticed that alot of the posters here, that share your point of view, are counterparts of yours. So just because we are from the same area, does not minimize our point of views.

 

No you haven't. I've met one person who has posted in this thread. The rest I don't know from Adam.

 

The same can't be said for you, and you are correct that it does not minimize your point of view. It does seem to localize it, however, which was my only point to begin with.

Yes I can make the Same Assertion as you. And being I am from Oregon (BTW,the birthplace of geocaching) maybe my point should carry more weight. J/K of course. :laughing:

 

I'm not sure I understand this. You can make what same assertion as I can?

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well I have noticed that alot of the posters here, that share your point of view, are counterparts of yours. So just because we are from the same area, does not minimize our point of views.

 

 

What evidence do you have that we are counterparts, and why would that matter anyway?

 

This statement seems designed to shut down a legitimate debatable discussion posted in a thread that is solely designed to discuss the nuances of geocoins.

 

I started this thread and the only person I have ever met that has also replied in this thread is the original coin owner who stated his preference about the entire issue.

 

The only other coiner who has posted that I have had any relationship with (due to playing geocoin fantasy football) has a counter opinion to mine (and she presented her views very well)

 

That said I don't think who knows who really matters in this discussion as long as it remains a discussion that is civil and debates the actual points presented. Feel free to support your friends and geo buddies, but please present a logical argument.

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well I have noticed that alot of the posters here, that share your point of view, are counterparts of yours. So just because we are from the same area, does not minimize our point of views.

 

 

What evidence do you have that we are counterparts, and why would that matter anyway?

 

This statement seems designed to shut down a legitimate debatable discussion posted in a thread that is solely designed to discuss the nuances of geocoins.

 

I started this thread and the only person I have ever met that has also replied in this thread is the original coin owner who stated his preference about the entire issue.

 

The only other coiner who has posted that I have had any relationship with (due to playing geocoin fantasy football) has a counter opinion to mine (and she presented her views very well)

 

That said I don't think who knows who really matters in this discussion as long as it remains a discussion that is civil and debates the actual points presented. Feel free to support your friends and geo buddies, but please present a logical argument.

Exactly, but I am not the one who is making these implications.

Edited by randomincoherencies
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well I have noticed that alot of the posters here, that share your point of view, are counterparts of yours. So just because we are from the same area, does not minimize our point of views.

 

 

What evidence do you have that we are counterparts, and why would that matter anyway?

 

This statement seems designed to shut down a legitimate debatable discussion posted in a thread that is solely designed to discuss the nuances of geocoins.

 

I started this thread and the only person I have ever met that has also replied in this thread is the original coin owner who stated his preference about the entire issue.

 

The only other coiner who has posted that I have had any relationship with (due to playing geocoin fantasy football) has a counter opinion to mine (and she presented her views very well)

 

That said I don't think who knows who really matters in this discussion as long as it remains a discussion that is civil and debates the actual points presented. Feel free to support your friends and geo buddies, but please present a logical argument.

 

In fairness, I am the one who made the original statement regarding counterparts. And the only reason I brought it up was to combine the fact with another that was pointed out earlier about another group of log deleters from (I believe) Ohio, and that the practice of deleting logs without reason seems to be localized in groups for some reason or another.

Edited by G & C
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People, it's not just Keep logs or Delete logs.

Archive them. Players can keep their logs, and icons, and owners can visibly clear off their trackable listing page so it's effectively "new", if they want.

Everyone = happy.

 

eta: 'archive' being a suggested feature, not a current ability

 

And again, I'll say that I agree. I see no harm and all benefit in your suggestion. Would you post that on the Feature forum? I wouldn't feel right about it since it wasn't my idea...but unless I hear a very good argument against it, I'll back you 100%!

 

+1 from me

+2 from me. Sounds like a very good idea. Everybody gets what they want (or at least it looks like it) and nobody gets hurt!

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<snipped this out since the quote markers were messed up and I don't know how to fix them>

 

Again - the only logs deleted were discovery logs made at one event, no real colorful history here, the coin was not moved, had no pics taken, no stories, just 'TFTD' logs.

 

I'm sorry. I wasn't clear about the history comment.

 

Yes, it's the history of the coins, but it's also the history of the coiner who posted it! I think they're BOTH important!

 

And I'm talking about coin logs IN GENERAL...not just this particular coin and those particular logs. They may have been boring to everyone including the loggers, I don't know. I didn't read them and I don't know the people involved.

 

I DO know that I have discovered many coins at events, out on the trails, in and at geocaches. I collect those little icons and I expect my logs to mark my days of geocaching/geocoining, and I'd be very upset if someone just deleted them. I play by the rules. Now that I'm aware that I can lose something important to the way I play this game simply because someone else plays differently (while still following the rules), I'd like to see a change in those rules. Period.

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<snipped this out since the quote markers were messed up and I don't know how to fix them>

 

Again - the only logs deleted were discovery logs made at one event, no real colorful history here, the coin was not moved, had no pics taken, no stories, just 'TFTD' logs.

 

I'm sorry. I wasn't clear about the history comment.

 

Yes, it's the history of the coins, but it's also the history of the coiner who posted it! I think they're BOTH important!

 

And I'm talking about coin logs IN GENERAL...not just this particular coin and those particular logs. They may have been boring to everyone including the loggers, I don't know. I didn't read them and I don't know the people involved.

 

I DO know that I have discovered many coins at events, out on the trails, in and at geocaches. I collect those little icons and I expect my logs to mark my days of geocaching/geocoining, and I'd be very upset if someone just deleted them. I play by the rules. Now that I'm aware that I can lose something important to the way I play this game simply because someone else plays differently (while still following the rules), I'd like to see a change in those rules. Period.

Still not Convinced that there is a real problem here that needs to be rectified with more rules. Logs are not being deleted willy nilly.

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I'm not sure if I am in the majority or minority of those who like to discover coins, but I could care less if there is an icon attached to my discovery. The fact that I personally discovered the coin is what matters to me and I would hate for that log to be deleted or in my opinion devalued by someone else. It's like being called a liar. I think it has been stated here before that as the new coin owner, you personally would have no idea behind the validity of the discoveries made on said coin, whether at an event, in the field or elsewhere. You would not know if the discoverey came from a list or if that person held that coin in their hand while admiring it. I am for leaving the logs and having an "archive" system as others have suggested.

Edited by the4dirtydogs
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That's not feasible. If you want to change peoples minds, you need to come up with something that's at the very least reasonable. Things happen. Folks lose jobs. Guys stop geocaching. People die.

 

I'm still wishing and waiting for one solid reason to come up for continuing to allow deleted logs of the regular variety. Not the mistake logs, not the editing of logs, but the deletion of rightful discovery logs for no apparent reason. It's fine if you want to argue your point, but what exactly is your point?

 

If you read the entire thread from start to finish there are several reasons to continue with the current policy of allowing deletion of logs. Just because they aren’t a solid reason in your opinion doesn’t mean that they aren’t a solid reason.

 

 

The point is - I do not have to convince you or anybody else as I am not asking for a rule change, you are. I prefer it to stay the way it is. and far as I am concerned you have not convinced me that it should change because the issue is not vast enough, not everyone removes logs only a very small few do this and from what I have read they are only discovery logs from events nothing more so this to me does not warrant a rule change.

 

Cool. Point taken. You don't want a rule change.

 

I'm not really sure why, if you have things the way you want them, that you continue to post here and stir the hornets nest. Don't get me wrong, it's fine by me. I appreciate you sounding the rally cry for the vast majority that agree with the need for a rule change on this issue. I'm just not sure how it's helping from your perspective.

 

From my side, I just like to debate. These issues are fun for me, IF there's an actual argument to the contrary. That's what I'm trying to find from you, or one of your Oregon counterparts randomly taking part in this thread, one at a time.

 

I agree with randomincherencies that I prefer the rule as it is. If any change is to be made then thebruce0 has made a very intriguing suggestion.

 

However, if you G&C are just here to debate because in general you like to debate then it would seem to me that you are the one stirring up the hornet’s nest. I also don’t see where you see the vast majority asking for a change. The “vast majority” of cachers don’t come to these forums…..

 

For the record I live in Michigan and have only met one of the posters in this thread in person. I have interacted with others through this forum, coin trading or fantasy football. I also don't believe I have ever deleted a log from a coin I have adopted.

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That's not feasible. If you want to change peoples minds, you need to come up with something that's at the very least reasonable. Things happen. Folks lose jobs. Guys stop geocaching. People die.

 

I'm still wishing and waiting for one solid reason to come up for continuing to allow deleted logs of the regular variety. Not the mistake logs, not the editing of logs, but the deletion of rightful discovery logs for no apparent reason. It's fine if you want to argue your point, but what exactly is your point?

 

If you read the entire thread from start to finish there are several reasons to continue with the current policy of allowing deletion of logs. Just because they aren’t a solid reason in your opinion doesn’t mean that they aren’t a solid reason.

 

 

The point is - I do not have to convince you or anybody else as I am not asking for a rule change, you are. I prefer it to stay the way it is. and far as I am concerned you have not convinced me that it should change because the issue is not vast enough, not everyone removes logs only a very small few do this and from what I have read they are only discovery logs from events nothing more so this to me does not warrant a rule change.

 

Cool. Point taken. You don't want a rule change.

 

I'm not really sure why, if you have things the way you want them, that you continue to post here and stir the hornets nest. Don't get me wrong, it's fine by me. I appreciate you sounding the rally cry for the vast majority that agree with the need for a rule change on this issue. I'm just not sure how it's helping from your perspective.

 

From my side, I just like to debate. These issues are fun for me, IF there's an actual argument to the contrary. That's what I'm trying to find from you, or one of your Oregon counterparts randomly taking part in this thread, one at a time.

 

I agree with randomincherencies that I prefer the rule as it is. If any change is to be made then thebruce0 has made a very intriguing suggestion.

 

However, if you G&C are just here to debate because in general you like to debate then it would seem to me that you are the one stirring up the hornet’s nest. I also don’t see where you see the vast majority asking for a change. The “vast majority” of cachers don’t come to these forums…..

 

For the record I live in Michigan and have only met one of the posters in this thread in person. I have interacted with others through this forum, coin trading or fantasy football. I also don't believe I have ever deleted a log from a coin I have adopted.

 

+1

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I agree with randomincherencies that I prefer the rule as it is. If any change is to be made then thebruce0 has made a very intriguing suggestion.

 

As the rule is, there is no rule. There needs to be some level of guidance for the people who like to take things to the extreme on both sides of the coin (no pun intended). No rules = anarchy = situations like these, where two sides get heated, angry, and wedges get driven between factions. I don't want that, and I doubt anyone here does. Yet, that seems to be where we are.

 

However, if you G&C are just here to debate because in general you like to debate then it would seem to me that you are the one stirring up the hornet’s nest. I also don’t see where you see the vast majority asking for a change. The “vast majority” of cachers don’t come to these forums…..

 

True, I said I like to debate, but try to read my entire post and not pick it apart to use the parts you like. I have presented the arguments for my side on numerous occasions. Now I'm here trying to figure out what the other side is exactly, and I'm having a hard time doing it. The good arguments have all regarded things like accidental logs, mistaken drops into wrong caches, virtual logs, things of that nature. Not once has there been a good argument given for allowing the continued deletions of rightful grabbed/discovery logs. At this point, that's my only desire in this thread, is to find out why you would want such a practice to continue unless it involves something that I mentioned above. Can YOU help me with that?

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I agree with randomincherencies that I prefer the rule as it is. If any change is to be made then thebruce0 has made a very intriguing suggestion.

 

As the rule is, there is no rule. There needs to be some level of guidance for the people who like to take things to the extreme on both sides of the coin (no pun intended). No rules = anarchy = situations like these, where two sides get heated, angry, and wedges get driven between factions. I don't want that, and I doubt anyone here does. Yet, that seems to be where we are.

 

However, if you G&C are just here to debate because in general you like to debate then it would seem to me that you are the one stirring up the hornet’s nest. I also don’t see where you see the vast majority asking for a change. The “vast majority” of cachers don’t come to these forums…..

 

True, I said I like to debate, but try to read my entire post and not pick it apart to use the parts you like. I have presented the arguments for my side on numerous occasions. Now I'm here trying to figure out what the other side is exactly, and I'm having a hard time doing it. The good arguments have all regarded things like accidental logs, mistaken drops into wrong caches, virtual logs, things of that nature. Not once has there been a good argument given for allowing the continued deletions of rightful grabbed/discovery logs. At this point, that's my only desire in this thread, is to find out why you would want such a practice to continue unless it involves something that I mentioned above. Can YOU help me with that?

 

This quote is pretty funny because I used your entire post #219 without deleting any of it. :laughing: :laughing:

 

I highly doubt that I or anyone else can give you what in your opinion is a "good argument" for allowing the current guidelines (not rules) to continue unchanged. No matter what is put forth you will find something wrong with it. You have your opinion and I have mine. I would like to continue to have the right to delete logs on the coins I own as I see fit. Whether I exercise that right or not is something different. I still want that right.

 

Maybe this is a more widespread problem than I think it is. My feeling is that the log deletions happen very rarely and the OP was venting because it happened to him. It also sounds like there are a very few cachers who do do it. I have moved probably close to 500 trackables and haven't had a log deleted. However, there has been one poster in this thread who has had several deleted all from one owner. If I had that happen to me I wouldn't bother with that owner's trackables either moving them or discovering them.

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I agree with randomincherencies that I prefer the rule as it is. If any change is to be made then thebruce0 has made a very intriguing suggestion.

 

As the rule is, there is no rule. There needs to be some level of guidance for the people who like to take things to the extreme on both sides of the coin (no pun intended). No rules = anarchy = situations like these, where two sides get heated, angry, and wedges get driven between factions. I don't want that, and I doubt anyone here does. Yet, that seems to be where we are.

 

However, if you G&C are just here to debate because in general you like to debate then it would seem to me that you are the one stirring up the hornet’s nest. I also don’t see where you see the vast majority asking for a change. The “vast majority” of cachers don’t come to these forums…..

 

True, I said I like to debate, but try to read my entire post and not pick it apart to use the parts you like. I have presented the arguments for my side on numerous occasions. Now I'm here trying to figure out what the other side is exactly, and I'm having a hard time doing it. The good arguments have all regarded things like accidental logs, mistaken drops into wrong caches, virtual logs, things of that nature. Not once has there been a good argument given for allowing the continued deletions of rightful grabbed/discovery logs. At this point, that's my only desire in this thread, is to find out why you would want such a practice to continue unless it involves something that I mentioned above. Can YOU help me with that?

 

This quote is pretty funny because I used your entire post #219 without deleting any of it. :laughing: :laughing:

 

I highly doubt that I or anyone else can give you what in your opinion is a "good argument" for allowing the current guidelines (not rules) to continue unchanged. No matter what is put forth you will find something wrong with it. You have your opinion and I have mine. I would like to continue to have the right to delete logs on the coins I own as I see fit. Whether I exercise that right or not is something different. I still want that right.

 

Maybe this is a more widespread problem than I think it is. My feeling is that the log deletions happen very rarely and the OP was venting because it happened to him. It also sounds like there are a very few cachers who do do it. I have moved probably close to 500 trackables and haven't had a log deleted. However, there has been one poster in this thread who has had several deleted all from one owner. If I had that happen to me I wouldn't bother with that owner's trackables either moving them or discovering them.

Very well put! You conveyed EXACTLY what I feel. Thanks for carrying the water for me. :lol:

Edited by randomincoherencies
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Ok guys were not suppose to be making anything personal

So that way this discussion can stay open.

 

I think the point is that if there isn't a rule put in what's to stop people from deleting all logs from all coins.

What if everyone woke up tomorrow and every coin you have logged had the logs deleted off of it.

And it showed you had no coins moved or discovered. By all rights as the rules are now that can happen

And there is nothing anyone can say.

 

All were saying is gs needs to lay down some ground rules so it can't happen.

So the best alternative I've heard is the archive button which would help both sides.

Then everyone gets what they want.

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Also to add because someone will mention that moved logs were not deleted.

 

What Im saying is the game is evolving

A few years ago no cacher would have ever thought of deleting a discover log that HAD been discovered.

Now some cachers see it as fine. (right or wrong not the question)

What if in a year everyone thinks you can delete all logs

 

We have to look at the big picture as new players come in they will play their own way.

Just as everyone reading this has. So what's to stop them from doing it.....

Edited by mlrs1996
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Also to add because someone will mention that moved logs were not deleted.

 

What Im saying is the game is evolving

A few years ago no cacher would have ever thought of deleting a discover log that HAD been discovered.

Now some cachers see it as fine. (right or wrong not the question)

What if in a year everyone thinks you can delete all logs

 

We have to look at the big picture as new players come in they will play their own way.

Just as everyone reading this has. So what's to stop them from doing it.....

 

Well put! :)

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Also to add because someone will mention that moved logs were not deleted.

 

What Im saying is the game is evolving

A few years ago no cacher would have ever thought of deleting a discover log that HAD been discovered.

Now some cachers see it as fine. (right or wrong not the question)

What if in a year everyone thinks you can delete all logs

 

We have to look at the big picture as new players come in they will play their own way.

Just as everyone reading this has. So what's to stop them from doing it.....

This is a strawman argument, it does not make sense.

Link to comment

Also to add because someone will mention that moved logs were not deleted.

 

What Im saying is the game is evolving

A few years ago no cacher would have ever thought of deleting a discover log that HAD been discovered.

Now some cachers see it as fine. (right or wrong not the question)

What if in a year everyone thinks you can delete all logs

 

We have to look at the big picture as new players come in they will play their own way.

Just as everyone reading this has. So what's to stop them from doing it.....

 

Well put! :)

 

Here, here!

 

I have lost a few logs to random deleters. It is no fun. :sad:

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Also to add because someone will mention that moved logs were not deleted.

 

What Im saying is the game is evolving

A few years ago no cacher would have ever thought of deleting a discover log that HAD been discovered.

Now some cachers see it as fine. (right or wrong not the question)

What if in a year everyone thinks you can delete all logs

 

We have to look at the big picture as new players come in they will play their own way.

Just as everyone reading this has. So what's to stop them from doing it.....

This is a strawman argument, it does not make sense.

 

I'm not sure how it doesn't make sense.

I'm saying if gs will set some rules then it will cut down on arguments in the future

All of the rules we have come about because someone did something someone else didn't like

So why not stop it before it gets out of hand

Link to comment

Also to add because someone will mention that moved logs were not deleted.

 

What Im saying is the game is evolving

A few years ago no cacher would have ever thought of deleting a discover log that HAD been discovered.

Now some cachers see it as fine. (right or wrong not the question)

What if in a year everyone thinks you can delete all logs

 

We have to look at the big picture as new players come in they will play their own way.

Just as everyone reading this has. So what's to stop them from doing it.....

This is a strawman argument, it does not make sense.

 

No, it makes perfect sense. A year or two ago you would not have seen any ebay auctions where the seller says: "activated, but has no logs". Now you do. Somehow people have gotten the perception that a coin with no logs is more "valuable" than a coin with logs. If this trend continues you will see coins stripped of every log when the owner decides to sell it.

 

I for one agree with what has been said previously in this thread. The coin owner may own the coin itself, but he does not own my logs, and unless they are mistakes or frauds, he should not be permitted to delete them.

 

I still can't fathom why someone would even care how many logs of any kind are on their coin. Do they regularly pull up their coins' pages and congratulate themselves on the "quality" or absence of logs?

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Also to add because someone will mention that moved logs were not deleted.

 

What Im saying is the game is evolving

A few years ago no cacher would have ever thought of deleting a discover log that HAD been discovered.

Now some cachers see it as fine. (right or wrong not the question)

What if in a year everyone thinks you can delete all logs

 

We have to look at the big picture as new players come in they will play their own way.

Just as everyone reading this has. So what's to stop them from doing it.....

This is a strawman argument, it does not make sense.

 

I'm not sure how it doesn't make sense.

I'm saying if gs will set some rules then it will cut down on arguments in the future

All of the rules we have come about because someone did something someone else didn't like

So why not stop it before it gets out of hand

 

Precisely!! It makes sense to me.

 

randomincoherencies - on one hand you say that it makes no sense (which, IMO, it makes perfect sense and sounds very logical), but on the other you don't want rules to clarify the situation. You can't have it both way - you either remain with confusion and differing views (and essentailly different ways of playing the gmae) OR have rules so that everyone plays the game the same game way.

Edited by keewee
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Also to add because someone will mention that moved logs were not deleted.

 

What Im saying is the game is evolving

A few years ago no cacher would have ever thought of deleting a discover log that HAD been discovered.

Now some cachers see it as fine. (right or wrong not the question)

What if in a year everyone thinks you can delete all logs

 

We have to look at the big picture as new players come in they will play their own way.

Just as everyone reading this has. So what's to stop them from doing it.....

This is a strawman argument, it does not make sense.

 

I'm not sure how it doesn't make sense.

I'm saying if gs will set some rules then it will cut down on arguments in the future

All of the rules we have come about because someone did something someone else didn't like

So why not stop it before it gets out of hand

 

Precisely!!

 

randomincoherencies - on one hand you say that it makes no sense (which, IMO, it makes perfect sense and sounds very logical), but on the other you don't want rules to clarify the situation. You can't have it both way - you either remain with confusion and differing views (and essentailly different ways of playing the gmae) OR have rules so that everyone plays the game the same game way.

What I mean is - this quote 'What if in a year everyone thinks you can delete all logs'

Why would anyone do this on a coin log. They send out the coin to follow it's travels, and the initial conversation regarding log deletions were in the case of an ownership transfer where only a few discover logs were removed. With the millions of coins currently in the system, traveling, being discovered. There doesn't appear to be this huge problem of log deletions. And I hate to have GS make more rules on a 'What if'

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What I mean is - this quote 'What if in a year everyone thinks you can delete all logs'

Why would anyone do this on a coin log. They send out the coin to follow it's travels, and the initial conversation regarding log deletions were in the case of an ownership transfer where only a few discover logs were removed. With the millions of coins currently in the system, traveling, being discovered. There doesn't appear to be this huge problem of log deletions. And I hate to have GS make more rules on a 'What if'

 

All rules get made on a "What if...".

 

The 6 pages (so far) of discussion indicate that a number of players would like clarification. I would prefer the logs to be locked after a time, but at the very least I'd like to see coin logs afforded the same protection as cache logs: Do not delete without cause.

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I have seen lots of geocoins at events I go to and in the caches I find. The geocoins I like I discover. I enjoy looking at where it has been and I have went back to look at my favorites and buy a few. I would not be happy if someone, for whatever reason, took that ability away from me. The archive option sounds like a very good compromise.

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Whether it should be Their Option to keep or remove these logs is the matter of discussion here and personally I'm hoping that GS will make a ruling one way or another based on the players opinions. Your opinion seems to be that they should. Mine is that they shouldn't. (Keep in mind that I also have a very strong feeling about the log itself...not JUST the icon.)

 

That being said, I'm not upset with anyone who is still playing by the rules. Currently the rules allow deleting. I want to see that changed to protect EVERYONE'S rights in this game.

Discovery on coins is a Privilege - not a right

Why would a new owner of a coin have the right to delete the log of a cacher who was given the Privilege to log the coin by the previous owner? Shouldn't that Privilege be honored by it's next owner? Shouldn't the next owner respect the (wishes of) the previous owner?

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And has been said often in here - It's a coin, not a kidney.

 

It's been a long time since I read this last. :lol:

 

Too bad more people in general never quite got this concept. :blink:

 

Yeah, apparently when they steal a kidney you wake up groggy in a bath tub full of ice... With a coin log you just get an email :rolleyes:

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And has been said often in here - It's a coin, not a kidney.

 

It's been a long time since I read this last. :lol:

 

Too bad more people in general never quite got this concept. :blink:

 

Yeah, apparently when they steal a kidney you wake up groggy in a bath tub full of ice... With a coin log you just get an email :rolleyes:

 

Tub of ice, bottle of rum, won't care about the kidney. B)

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This quote is pretty funny because I used your entire post #219 without deleting any of it. :laughing: :laughing:

 

I highly doubt that I or anyone else can give you what in your opinion is a "good argument" for allowing the current guidelines (not rules) to continue unchanged. No matter what is put forth you will find something wrong with it. You have your opinion and I have mine. I would like to continue to have the right to delete logs on the coins I own as I see fit. Whether I exercise that right or not is something different. I still want that right.

 

Maybe this is a more widespread problem than I think it is. My feeling is that the log deletions happen very rarely and the OP was venting because it happened to him. It also sounds like there are a very few cachers who do do it. I have moved probably close to 500 trackables and haven't had a log deleted. However, there has been one poster in this thread who has had several deleted all from one owner. If I had that happen to me I wouldn't bother with that owner's trackables either moving them or discovering them.

 

You're right, that first part came out all wrong. My apologies. You didn't cut any of the quote, but it does seem that you only paid mind to a portion of it. That's more how I should have said it.

 

Believe me LadyBee, I want you to have that freedom too. I do because I want that freedom as well. I hate new rules like I hate wet log sheets. But apparently, people can't handle the freedom responsibly. If COs were allowed to delete logs on caches for no apparent reason, I'd have stopped caching long ago. I'd lay a few bucks down that a lot of folks would have. The moving and discovering of coins is a big part of caching for me, and I'm not terribly fond of people deleting rightful discovered and moved logs (yep, I said moved logs, still waiting on randomincoherencies to get back to me on whether he wants the proof of "willy nilly" log deletions) just because they have the freedom to do so.

 

In the last couple of years, since I started caching and moving geocoins, I've had at least 10 discovery logs deleted on sold coins. I kept quiet, didn't want to rock the boat, figured I was just unlucky. But threads like these seem to be popping up from time to time, and in each, someone else with a similar story. As the selling of activated geocoins becomes more commonplace, the practice of deleting rightful moved/discovery logs does as well. It's not rampant, I'll agree with you there. But it's still not right.

 

How many more of my logs have to be deleted before you agree? How many of yours?

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Whether it should be Their Option to keep or remove these logs is the matter of discussion here and personally I'm hoping that GS will make a ruling one way or another based on the players opinions. Your opinion seems to be that they should. Mine is that they shouldn't. (Keep in mind that I also have a very strong feeling about the log itself...not JUST the icon.)

 

That being said, I'm not upset with anyone who is still playing by the rules. Currently the rules allow deleting. I want to see that changed to protect EVERYONE'S rights in this game.

Discovery on coins is a Privilege - not a right

Why would a new owner of a coin have the right to delete the log of a cacher who was given the Privilege to log the coin by the previous owner? Shouldn't that Privilege be honored by it's next owner? Shouldn't the next owner respect the (wishes of) the previous owner?

 

The previous owner's wishes can be taken into account but why should they HAVE to be followed? Unless there is a written agreement such as the terms of use that you previously mentioned, then those wishes are only a suggestion. It is the new owner's property to do with as they see fit. If the previous owner of a house gave a key to someone does the new owner have the right to change the locks to revoke the privilege given by the previous owner? I don't agree necessarily with overall log deletion but I do see why someone might want to do it and I also think they should have the right to do so.

 

This quote is pretty funny because I used your entire post #219 without deleting any of it. :laughing: :laughing:

 

I highly doubt that I or anyone else can give you what in your opinion is a "good argument" for allowing the current guidelines (not rules) to continue unchanged. No matter what is put forth you will find something wrong with it. You have your opinion and I have mine. I would like to continue to have the right to delete logs on the coins I own as I see fit. Whether I exercise that right or not is something different. I still want that right.

 

Maybe this is a more widespread problem than I think it is. My feeling is that the log deletions happen very rarely and the OP was venting because it happened to him. It also sounds like there are a very few cachers who do do it. I have moved probably close to 500 trackables and haven't had a log deleted. However, there has been one poster in this thread who has had several deleted all from one owner. If I had that happen to me I wouldn't bother with that owner's trackables either moving them or discovering them.

 

You're right, that first part came out all wrong. My apologies. You didn't cut any of the quote, but it does seem that you only paid mind to a portion of it. That's more how I should have said it.

 

Believe me LadyBee, I want you to have that freedom too. I do because I want that freedom as well. I hate new rules like I hate wet log sheets. But apparently, people can't handle the freedom responsibly. If COs were allowed to delete logs on caches for no apparent reason, I'd have stopped caching long ago. I'd lay a few bucks down that a lot of folks would have. The moving and discovering of coins is a big part of caching for me, and I'm not terribly fond of people deleting rightful discovered and moved logs (yep, I said moved logs, still waiting on randomincoherencies to get back to me on whether he wants the proof of "willy nilly" log deletions) just because they have the freedom to do so.

 

In the last couple of years, since I started caching and moving geocoins, I've had at least 10 discovery logs deleted on sold coins. I kept quiet, didn't want to rock the boat, figured I was just unlucky. But threads like these seem to be popping up from time to time, and in each, someone else with a similar story. As the selling of activated geocoins becomes more commonplace, the practice of deleting rightful moved/discovery logs does as well. It's not rampant, I'll agree with you there. But it's still not right.

 

How many more of my logs have to be deleted before you agree? How many of yours?

 

I don't like wet logs either but I now have a space pen to take care of that problem when I don't have a replacement log with me ;)

 

Earlier someone (and I don't remember who) stated he removed only discovered logs at events. To me they are all the same whether discovered at an event or in a cache or a move log, none are more or less important than the others.

 

With the two of us together we have about a 1% deletion rate (yours of 10 or so logs and none of mine) I'd say that overall that isn't too bad. If I got up in the am and all of my trackable logs had been deleted would I get upset? Maybe. Especially with the emails telling me clogging my inbox. :P But I almost never look at that part of my profile. I'm not an icon ho nor do I log travelers to get another number. Are all/most of your deletions from one cacher? I do understand why others get upset. I just believe that the owner has the right to so for their property. As someone else has stated the game/sport is evolving and I see more and more of the blank log or just a couple of letters. Those logs bother me a lot more on my caches and trackables than a log deletion of something I have logged.

 

What is it you want me to agree to though? I have already said that I think the proposal put forth by thebruce0 is intriguing.

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I posted in this thread previously, but perhaps some users did not see the post. A geocoin is owned by the owner, and that owner can set the mission as they see fit, and can manage the coin's page as they choose. If a coin changes hands, then the new owner makes these types of decisions.

 

This thread has derailed and now there are actions happening outside the forums which are affecting cachers who have posted in these forums.

 

A reminder that all behavior in these forums and on Geocaching.com is answerable to the conditions established in the Terms of Use. All content in these forums is overseen by the forum guidelines.

 

Any additional inappropriate content in this thread will mean that it is closed. We would like to keep the discussion open, and most users are honoring our ToU and the guidelines, so please be very mindful of what is posted here.

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I posted in this thread previously, but perhaps some users did not see the post. A geocoin is owned by the owner, and that owner can set the mission as they see fit, and can manage the coin's page as they choose. If a coin changes hands, then the new owner makes these types of decisions.

 

This thread has derailed and now there are actions happening outside the forums which are affecting cachers who have posted in these forums.

 

A reminder that all behavior in these forums and on Geocaching.com is answerable to the conditions established in the Terms of Use. All content in these forums is overseen by the forum guidelines.

 

Any additional inappropriate content in this thread will mean that it is closed. We would like to keep the discussion open, and most users are honoring our ToU and the guidelines, so please be very mindful of what is posted here.

So are you saying that having this discussion is useless, because GS is not willing to see that there may be an issue worth looking into here? We understand that the owner of a coin controls the coins mission and the coin page, but what is up for discussion is whether or not they should have the ability to delete accurate and honest logs of discovery "just because", whether they are the first owner of the coin or the 10th. I guess since we also control our cache pages, we should just start to delete true and honest logs "just because". We have had coin logs deleted as well, but never said anything about it.....but after reading this, it looks like it is becoming more commonplace than we originally thought.

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I posted in this thread previously, but perhaps some users did not see the post. A geocoin is owned by the owner, and that owner can set the mission as they see fit, and can manage the coin's page as they choose. If a coin changes hands, then the new owner makes these types of decisions.

 

This thread has derailed and now there are actions happening outside the forums which are affecting cachers who have posted in these forums.

 

A reminder that all behavior in these forums and on Geocaching.com is answerable to the conditions established in the Terms of Use. All content in these forums is overseen by the forum guidelines.

 

Any additional inappropriate content in this thread will mean that it is closed. We would like to keep the discussion open, and most users are honoring our ToU and the guidelines, so please be very mindful of what is posted here.

So are you saying that having this discussion is useless, because GS is not willing to see that there may be an issue worth looking into here? We understand that the owner of a coin controls the coins mission and the coin page, but what is up for discussion is whether or not they should have the ability to delete accurate and honest logs of discovery "just because", whether they are the first owner of the coin or the 10th. I guess since we also control our cache pages, we should just start to delete true and honest logs "just because". We have had coin logs deleted as well, but never said anything about it.....but after reading this, it looks like it is becoming more commonplace than we originally thought.

 

The current owner can delete previous logs, yes. It is not behavior that we encourage, but it is the coin owner's property. It is their decision. Groundspeak will not be forcing coin owners to retain previous logs if that is the coin owners choice.

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The current owner can delete previous logs, yes. It is not behavior that we encourage, but it is the coin owner's property. It is their decision. Groundspeak will not be forcing coin owners to retain previous logs if that is the coin owners choice.

 

So much for a geocoin being like a cache. This means a perfectly valid log on a coin can be deleted by the coin owner no questions asked. But when I as the owner of a mystery cache want to delete the log of someone that state in their log that they did not bother to solve the puzzle (and therefore got the final coords from someone else, often circulating lists of end coordinates) I can do nothing about it and Groundspeak WILL reinstate the log if I delete it. This really saddens me.

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The current owner can delete previous logs, yes. It is not behavior that we encourage, but it is the coin owner's property. It is their decision. Groundspeak will not be forcing coin owners to retain previous logs if that is the coin owners choice.

 

Are we to believe then that Groundspeak will not be making any changes or considerations to allow legitimate and important personal logs on coins and trackables to be protected as part of their own geocaching history, even if they can be 'deleted' from the item's listing page itself?

Your response is very Final and not encouraging towards discussing potential compromise or solutions that can appeal to more people.

 

What, exactly, are you saying?

 

"It is not behavior that we encourage" - does that mean people can dispute deleted logs? If so, who takes precedence in the resolution - the user who posted the log to the item, or the owner (new or old) who owns the item? By your next sentence, you imply you'd do nothing, because the owner takes precedence. So... what's the point of "it is not behavior that we encourage" if nothing can be done about it, and no mechanism exists to provide a compromise for both parties?

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