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Owner wiped out all logs for geocoin


teamhaynes

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I support the concept of treating logs on trackable items the same as logs on geocaches - they should not be deleted without a good reason

 

and I also like the idea of locking logs after a period of time

no delete, no edit, not for any reason, not by anybody

 

- - - -

 

and, since logs are not actually deleted (they just go where you can't see them) . . .

I would support a clickable link on the item (or geocache) page that says "show complete log history" - it would include edits and deletes - this should not be too hard to implement, since it appears that Groundspeak folks can do it easily

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I support the concept of treating logs on trackable items the same as logs on geocaches - they should not be deleted without a good reason

 

and I also like the idea of locking logs after a period of time

no delete, no edit, not for any reason, not by anybody

 

- - - -

 

and, since logs are not actually deleted (they just go where you can't see them) . . .

I would support a clickable link on the item (or geocache) page that says "show complete log history" - it would include edits and deletes - this should not be too hard to implement, since it appears that Groundspeak folks can do it easily

 

I've already voiced my opinion on the important value of the icon, but for many people, the actual log is an important piece of their caching history. That being said, the bolded portion of the above quote is the best suggestion I've heard so far!

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I like the idea of a tick box or radial button selection whereby a new owner may indicate whether they want a fresh slate or allow the existing logs to remain. But even if they choose a fresh slate my personal take is the logs should remain in some sort of archived state where they cannot by deleted.

 

I like the idea of such a tick box too, but I think it should be filled in by the OLD owner, not the NEW one. That way if you trade or sell a coin to someone, you can make sure the old logs remain as a courtsey to your finders, and the new owner knows what the deal is. I don't see any advantage to the new owner ticking the box (that would not change anything compared to the current situation: they would still do simply as they pleased).

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I may be wrong but it seems to me that the one main issue that keeps coming up is that if the new owner of the coin wipes the history clean it erases the icon and personal log from peoples profile page. What if we suggest to GS that once a log has been made and the icon added to a personal profile page then it is locked on that page regardless of the status of the coins page. So then the list of found/discovered coin icons are seperate from what goes on with the coins page itself. Adding to that you could always have it so when a coin owner cleans the history of a coin then there could be an archived coin history page that accessable by those that have logged it and is not connected to the coin page at all and does not continue to add more to it after the wipe date.

 

this isnt a bad idea but what about logging a coin wrong.

such as i was logging someone elses coins and found a m10b coin.

i logged it (but that wasnt the coin number)and later got an email from the holder of the coin.

it was an honest mistake and i deleted my log without a problem.

so if it didnt change the icon then i would have more of those icons than i actually found.

Edited by mlrs1996
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I may be wrong but it seems to me that the one main issue that keeps coming up is that if the new owner of the coin wipes the history clean it erases the icon and personal log from peoples profile page. What if we suggest to GS that once a log has been made and the icon added to a personal profile page then it is locked on that page regardless of the status of the coins page. So then the list of found/discovered coin icons are seperate from what goes on with the coins page itself. Adding to that you could always have it so when a coin owner cleans the history of a coin then there could be an archived coin history page that accessable by those that have logged it and is not connected to the coin page at all and does not continue to add more to it after the wipe date.

 

this isnt a bad idea but what about logging a coin wrong.

such as i was logging someone elses coins and found a m10b coin.

i logged it (but that wasnt the coin number)and later got an email from the holder of the coin.

it was an honest mistake and i deleted my log without a problem.

so if it didnt change the icon then i would have more of those icons than i actually found.

Maybe having the option to lock the Icons like you can with milestones?

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I may be wrong but it seems to me that the one main issue that keeps coming up is that if the new owner of the coin wipes the history clean it erases the icon and personal log from peoples profile page. What if we suggest to GS that once a log has been made and the icon added to a personal profile page then it is locked on that page regardless of the status of the coins page. So then the list of found/discovered coin icons are seperate from what goes on with the coins page itself. Adding to that you could always have it so when a coin owner cleans the history of a coin then there could be an archived coin history page that accessable by those that have logged it and is not connected to the coin page at all and does not continue to add more to it after the wipe date.

 

this isnt a bad idea but what about logging a coin wrong.

such as i was logging someone elses coins and found a m10b coin.

i logged it (but that wasnt the coin number)and later got an email from the holder of the coin.

it was an honest mistake and i deleted my log without a problem.

so if it didnt change the icon then i would have more of those icons than i actually found.

 

That's why I suggested a grace period. If gives a little time to correct errors. This is the way things are done with Waymarks already, so it shouldn't (to my non-programming brain) be too difficult to implement a similar feature for trackables.

Groundspeak would still retain the right and ability to delete or reinstate logs if situations warranted.

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I may be wrong but it seems to me that the one main issue that keeps coming up is that if the new owner of the coin wipes the history clean it erases the icon and personal log from peoples profile page. What if we suggest to GS that once a log has been made and the icon added to a personal profile page then it is locked on that page regardless of the status of the coins page. So then the list of found/discovered coin icons are seperate from what goes on with the coins page itself. Adding to that you could always have it so when a coin owner cleans the history of a coin then there could be an archived coin history page that accessable by those that have logged it and is not connected to the coin page at all and does not continue to add more to it after the wipe date.

 

this isnt a bad idea but what about logging a coin wrong.

such as i was logging someone elses coins and found a m10b coin.

i logged it (but that wasnt the coin number)and later got an email from the holder of the coin.

it was an honest mistake and i deleted my log without a problem.

so if it didnt change the icon then i would have more of those icons than i actually found.

 

That's why I suggested a grace period. If gives a little time to correct errors. This is the way things are done with Waymarks already, so it shouldn't (to my non-programming brain) be too difficult to implement a similar feature for trackables.

Groundspeak would still retain the right and ability to delete or reinstate logs if situations warranted.

 

This is a good idea to protect the icon collection. As mention it does need some tweaking. But as Geocoin have also become a collectable item some of the value is based on the coin being unactive or active and the amount of logs a coin have. Yes, there are examples where it does not matter, but on the whole I find it does.

 

I believe the car odometer analogy is a closer for geocoins. Deleting the logs is like rolling the odometer backward.

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i do think this is a good thing for GS to look into

because if all that needs to be said is i thought it was boring so i deleted it

its going to cause more problems as more people join the game.

 

i saw nowhere in the "rules" for geocoins that said if you discover a coin at an event instead of finding it in a cache your log could be deleted in the future.

 

There are No Rules for Geocoins, there is only etiquette and the main etiquette is to move the geocoin. Coins are property, they belong to the owner. no one else - For someone else To change the 'rules' for something that you own is not correct

 

i agree some what

 

but what about a tattoo tb, or car tb, or name tag tb or the tb's on shirts

they are not moved by people but discovered so why would i go in and delete all of the logs

of people that discovered my tattoo... because then everyone would loose that icon.

because even when its a tattoo its still just a regular tb that i had that number put on to my arm so technically i could sell that number if i decided too (not sure what good it would do )lol but i could

 

also you stated that there are no rules for this i think thats what alot of us are saying.

there needs to be a rule to cover this

Well for one, TB's Have no real value once activated. they are not the same as a geocoin. but if you sell yours then yes, the new owner should have the ability to delete any logs they want to.

 

oh and I disagree about rules for geocoins. They are property and no rules should be set down on something you own, and remember there are no guarantees in life. just cause you write something, does not mean it will be there forever.

 

TBs are not the same as geocoins?? From a collecting/trading standpoint that may be correct, but from a geocaching standpoint, I feel it highlights a point that is being overlooked...they share one unique trait - a tracking number. While the physical trackable (and any intrinsic value it may have) is in fact the sole property of its owner, the tracking number, in essence, is community property that is shared between Groundspeak, the owner and those who have found (discovered, grabbed, etc)the trackable according to established GS rules. At that point the tracking logs become part of the geocacher's unique history.

 

It is from that perspective that I feel deleting logs is an intrusion onto others' property. If there were a way for a new owner to "clean up" a trackable (of any kind) to make it feel new to him or her without the perceived theft of a portion of someone else's history, I would be all for it. BUT, the current mechanisms on GS do not provide for such a non-invasive cleaning. I am glad that someone has opened this for GS to address and appreciate some of the ideas that have been presented to protect the rights of all parties. Let's continue a productive dialog and find the middle ground where agreement lives.

Edited by ky83cat
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You know the answer to all of this is to just request to discover the coin again, Ask the new owner that since you discovered this coin in the past, if they would not mind you discovering it again with a current date. That would make everyone happy.

 

Not possible, unless of course the coin owner is willing to meet with all of the people who had their logs deleted. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a virtual log, likely to get the coin locked completely. Hopefully not a practice that you're using with any of your many geocoins.

No, They have already seen this coin, the owner is not handing out the tracking # to everybody, just those who logged it previously. And I resent your implication of me doing such a thing I am fully aware of the rules regarding virtual logging!

 

if they are willing to let them relog the coin then what was the point

of deleting them in the 1st place

why were they not just left on there

Because, The new owner has initiated a new activation date and and new starting point, so they don't want logs predating the activation. That's why. simple really

I say don't be so cheap and buy unactivatied coins and you wouldn't have any drama. :rolleyes::laughing:

Being Cheap has NOTHING to do with it. Some coins are no longer available to buy from a vendor, so you have to buy them from a private party. Don't be ignorant. I have many coins are activated and more so that are not.

I was just joking around with the "cheap" thing. Guess the angst level was too high already. We have bought a couple coins with logs on them and have left them because that's part of the coins history. But that's just us. The coin is what I really care about. Again sorry about the cheap comment it was meant as a funny. :laughing:

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Ok, read the whole thread, so I'll see if I can compute all this...

 

Perceived rights:

1) Owners (old and new) own the physical TB/coin, and want their item listing to reflect its history as they see it, whether letting old logs stand or removing old logs they no longer want to see.

2) Geocachers may move or discover a coin, and feel that their posted log is their property and should not be deleted without their permission.

 

I think there is a compromise.

 

What if trackable item listings reflect history under specific ownership? The owner of an item can decide how their listing is shown, the public facing display of its history. However, if an item transfer ownership, the new owner has the option to show or hide previous owner history - in effect, rather than "deleting" logs, logs posted before the owner transfer are rather 'archived' and protected. The owner of the logs can still manage/edit/remove if they see fit, but the owner of the listing can decide whether those logs are visible, and whether visitors to the listing can see history under previous ownerships.

 

Example: I could visit a geocoin page and not tell the difference between a coin that was activated a year ago with a rich history, and a coin that was purchased who decided to lock down its history so it appears to be brand new. Previous discoverers and its mileage before the owner's period are still in the system, and reflected in the related geocacher's trackable item log history, but not on the item listing itself.

 

Example: I could visit a geocoin that has changed hands, but the new owner feels that its previous history is worth retaining, so here I see a tab showing previous ownerships. I click on the previous owner, and I can see its logs history from that time, up until it changed hands. Perhaps it's been active 10 years, under 8 different owners - the current owner has still allowed me access to see those periods of its history.

 

Example: I could visit a geocoin that's changed hands, but the new owner really doesn't care about the status of its history, and has opted to do nothing - I just see one coin, one owner, and the entire linear log history since its first activation (this is basically how trackable listing pages are handled now).

 

I think the problem is the use of "deletion" of logs. Why not simply have the option to archive them? Geocachers feel they 'own' their logs and have legitimate reason for that. Listing owners feel they 'own' their item and its display and have legitimate reason for that.

So don't delete logs without the log owner's permission. Just allow listing owners to archive/hide them from view, and let their owners still have the ability to manage them.

 

Side note: If I discover a coin that has changed hands to a new owner who archives its extended history, my log will still show in my profile, I'll still have the icon, and I can still edit or delete it - But I can't edit the date into the new owner's ownership period, and if I delete it, I can't get it back. I'd have to re-log it.

Edited by thebruce0
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Everything you propose sounds good, except that I think that archived logs should be able to be seen at any time. In other words, a new owner would be able to archive the logs and they would not show up on the web site, BUT there would be a discrete button that the new owner would not be able to remove that would say "show archives". If a person clicked on the button, then the full history would be displayed.

 

The way I look at it, the physical coin is fully owned by the person who purchased it, whether new or used. However, all of the logs and various descriptions that are accessed using the tracking number are on Groundspeak servers and belong to them. So much of the geocaching game is about recording, statistics, and history, that my hope and expectation is that they will preserve the histories that they have helped create. Geocaching is only a little over ten years old, so it is not yet obvious what they are creating and it doesn't seem very special, but think what we will have in one hundred years. Maybe the web site won't still exist then, but I really think that there is a chance that it will. The other cool thing is that I expect that many of the coins that have gone missing will resurface and be logged in again. Most are probably not in landfills, but in "private collections".

 

Ok, read the whole thread, so I'll see if I can compute all this...

 

Perceived rights:

1) Owners (old and new) own the physical TB/coin, and want their item listing to reflect its history as they see it, whether letting old logs stand or removing old logs they no longer want to see.

2) Geocachers may move or discover a coin, and feel that their posted log is their property and should not be deleted without their permission.

 

I think there is a compromise.

 

What if trackable item listings reflect history under specific ownership? The owner of an item can decide how their listing is shown, the public facing display of its history. However, if an item transfer ownership, the new owner has the option to show or hide previous owner history - in effect, rather than "deleting" logs, logs posted before the owner transfer are rather 'archived' and protected. The owner of the logs can still manage/edit/remove if they see fit, but the owner of the listing can decide whether those logs are visible, and whether visitors to the listing can see history under previous ownerships.

 

Example: I could visit a geocoin page and not tell the difference between a coin that was activated a year ago with a rich history, and a coin that was purchased who decided to lock down its history so it appears to be brand new. Previous discoverers and its mileage before the owner's period are still in the system, and reflected in the related geocacher's trackable item log history, but not on the item listing itself.

 

Example: I could visit a geocoin that has changed hands, but the new owner feels that its previous history is worth retaining, so here I see a tab showing previous ownerships. I click on the previous owner, and I can see its logs history from that time, up until it changed hands. Perhaps it's been active 10 years, under 8 different owners - the current owner has still allowed me access to see those periods of its history.

 

Example: I could visit a geocoin that's changed hands, but the new owner really doesn't care about the status of its history, and has opted to do nothing - I just see one coin, one owner, and the entire linear log history since its first activation (this is basically how trackable listing pages are handled now).

 

I think the problem is the use of "deletion" of logs. Why not simply have the option to archive them? Geocachers feel they 'own' their logs and have legitimate reason for that. Listing owners feel they 'own' their item and its display and have legitimate reason for that.

So don't delete logs without the log owner's permission. Just allow listing owners to archive/hide them from view, and let their owners still have the ability to manage them.

 

Side note: If I discover a coin that has changed hands to a new owner who archives its extended history, my log will still show in my profile, I'll still have the icon, and I can still edit or delete it - But I can't edit the date into the new owner's ownership period, and if I delete it, I can't get it back. I'd have to re-log it.

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I'd agree with the option to always provide a view of the archived history - the only reason I said to give the option of the new owner hiding it entirely was based on the idea that they don't want the history visible at all, the sole reason for deleting the logs entirely. If they're still visible in any way, then what's the point of it all? Now, if they'll agree that having it archived, but still available for viewing via the item listing page, wouldn't 'reduce its value', then great - I'm all for having the item history always available.

 

That was just my way of compromising - hidden archived history would still be available by the other geocachers' profiles, just not accessible via the item listing under the new ownership, if they didn't want it there. But if they're fine with it being accessible via an archived history view, then great! :)

 

That was the third tier option:

1) I don't care, show it all in one history

2) Focus on 'my' history, but provide access to history under other owners

3) Only my history, I want it like a brand new listing; hide the entirety of its previous history

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< snip >

 

That was the third tier option:

1) I don't care, show it all in one history

2) Focus on 'my' history, but provide access to history under other owners

3) Only my history, I want it like a brand new listing; hide the entirety of its previous history

 

This is making more sense to me now...and I'm liking it...

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If the new owner of a geocoin wants to set a new mission an delete all previous logs, this is their choice. From the email copied into this thread it seems that the geocoin owner was communicating respectfully with the affected cachers. Forum users are reminded that name-calling and inappropriate comments about other cachers are not permitted in our forums. Such posts will be removed and the posters warned or suspended from forum use.

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Sandy, while what you say is true (and I agree wholeheartedly on every point!), I think there's a legitimate concern with people feeling they have a right to retain logs they post on trackable items. Sometimes for stats, sometimes for memories, sometimes for ..whatever. Point being, allowing the archival (and retention) of historic logs may be a feasible resolution, allowing the new item owner to effectively clear out the public history display on the item's listing page, and allowing posters of those past logs to retain their trackable log history (whether it was discovering, moving, etc).

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Sandy, while what you say is true (and I agree wholeheartedly on every point!), I think there's a legitimate concern with people feeling they have a right to retain logs they post on trackable items. Sometimes for stats, sometimes for memories, sometimes for ..whatever. Point being, allowing the archival (and retention) of historic logs may be a feasible resolution, allowing the new item owner to effectively clear out the public history display on the item's listing page, and allowing posters of those past logs to retain their trackable log history (whether it was discovering, moving, etc).

 

Definitely agree with this point. I can't see how Groundspeak can treat a cache log so differently from a coin log... Both and cache and coin are owned by someone, tracked in the statistics of the player, so it would seem there would be some way to balance the interests of all parties.

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I can definitely see the difference between a cache log and a coin log. The cache is placed for geocachers to seek out and log, A coin is moved from one cache to another to the benefit of the Coin owner, it is an added aspect of the game. So the coin owner should own the logs posted on it to do with it what they want. However, most coin owners are excited to see where their coin is visiting so I am quite sure the logs that are being deleted are few.

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As a person who's had a NUMBER of logs deleted by a certain someone who has posted in this thread, I do have an issue with log deletions.

 

1. I discovered that coin. That is a fact.

2. While yes, I saw those coins at an event, that doesn't make my log a second class log compared to me picking it up and moving it. That's tacky. A discovery/grab is a log. Period.

3. Telling people to not take it personal doesn't mean we won't. Especially when i talked to the person who sold the coin, and that person was...well, not happy with what had been done to the coin. Log deletions for no reason are frowned upon by most people. it's not like we armchaired logged those coins from some other continent. I saw them. I logged them.

 

Look, there are some people who want the icons. Other to see as many coins as possible. Others want the coins to be "theirs" and anyone else who had it before isn't part of that history.

 

So fine. Make it when a coin is adopted, that all previous logs go to a second tab. See what happened to the coin on another tab, but not your "precious clean page" of your history of the coin.

 

Yes, it's their right to delete logs. But I know a few people who have done this with impunity that has ticked off a decent sized community in Arkansas.

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i do think this is a good thing for GS to look into

because if all that needs to be said is i thought it was boring so i deleted it

its going to cause more problems as more people join the game.

 

i saw nowhere in the "rules" for geocoins that said if you discover a coin at an event instead of finding it in a cache your log could be deleted in the future.

 

There are No Rules for Geocoins, there is only etiquette and the main etiquette is to move the geocoin. Coins are property, they belong to the owner. no one else - For someone else To change the 'rules' for something that you own is not correct

 

Sorry, Just saw this. and I have to disagree. Yes, there is etiquette, and yes, coins out in the wild should be moved. However, if coins are held by the owner, and shown to people, then the etiquette is NOT to steal the coin and move them along (which is what you'd be doing if you took a coin from an owner to move along)

 

There is also etiquette towards other cachers, which deleting logs of those who have a reason to want to keep the logs/icons/discoveries, does not show that basic respect that etiquette implies.

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Have you ever lost something that couldn't be replaced? At no fault of your own but due to someone or something beyond your control. Do you not still have a memory of that something.

 

Focus on the really important things in life, go hug your spouse, your kids, your pet. Move on.

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Shut down the forums, folks! No need to discuss any concerns or problems, cuz at least we all have our health, right? There art thou happy!

 

sorry, couldn't resist being facetious... :P While what you say is indeed true, it's no reason to stop sharing concerns and finding ways to make things better.

Now, taking things personally and going on insult rampages - that's completely different. I trust the moderators to take care of those instances (as demonstrated earlier)

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< snip >

 

That was the third tier option:

1) I don't care, show it all in one history

2) Focus on 'my' history, but provide access to history under other owners

3) Only my history, I want it like a brand new listing; hide the entirety of its previous history

 

This is making more sense to me now...and I'm liking it...

 

So the goal here is to make whatever someone does, not matter. Tell you what, you get the community to accept proxy coins and I'll back you up 100%.

 

Personally I think you haven't thought it through far enough.

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So the goal here is to make whatever someone does, not matter.

 

Are you referring to the new coin owner, whose desire to have no logs for their coin might supposedly not matter?

 

Or are you referring to the coin logger, whose desire to retain the record of their interaction with the coin might not matter?

 

Because I think both are equally important, don't you?

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< snip >

 

That was the third tier option:

1) I don't care, show it all in one history

2) Focus on 'my' history, but provide access to history under other owners

3) Only my history, I want it like a brand new listing; hide the entirety of its previous history

 

This is making more sense to me now...and I'm liking it...

 

So the goal here is to make whatever someone does, not matter. Tell you what, you get the community to accept proxy coins and I'll back you up 100%.

 

Personally I think you haven't thought it through far enough.

 

I'm sorry, I really don't understand the first statement at all. I believe that what EVERYONE does should matter and I'd like to see GS do something that would ensure that.

 

As to the proxys...I have no problem with them at all, but I believe this is a discussion for another thread.

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Here is where this thread stands at this point:

 

Groundspeak has been made aware of this discussion and may or may not choose to participate in the discussion at some point. This stuff doesn't happen in real-time though so be patient if they don't post first thing in the morning or even for a few days.

 

It sounds like a feature request has been put in by at least one user.

 

A few people are causing this thread to get a bit personal with name calling and petty remarks or dominating the conversation.

 

I think this thread warrants staying open so the discussion can continue, but I don't like the way it's heading right now so here is what I am going to do:

- Leave the thread open

- Tell the following people to not post in this thread for the next day (basically 24 hours from this post so it takes into account time zones, etc.):

**G & C

**GeoMinions

**LionsLair

(I'm trying to be nice and polite here, but don't take this as a request. Please obey this directive and don't force Eartha or I to issue suspensions which would prevent you from posting anywhere)

- Direct everybody to talk about the practice in general and stop directing comments towards GeoMinions - they have obviously made their decision and they don't 'owe' anybody an explanation, like it or not

- Remind everybody that telling people they are "ignorant" (or similar comments) are not acceptable

 

This is obviously a topic that warrants discussion so let's do so in a constructive manner. If somebody disagrees with you, it doesn't make them "stupid", "cheap" or even "wrong". It simply means you have different opinions.

 

So feel free to post on why you think it's OK to delete logs or why you don't think it's OK, but leave individual people out of it as well as any veiled attacks on anybody's character.

 

Gracias. Mahalo. Kamsa hamnida. Danke. Merci. Grazie. Obrigado. Spasibo.

 

wow, seriously? my objective opinion on this topic has evidently been taken way out of context. I meant it with no malice at all. It may have a snarky, sarcastic undertone to it, but I never called anyone names and as stated, I had no malice intent at all. If anyone was hurt by my words, then all I can suggest is you're reading too much into my thoughts...

 

It's a good thing I haven't returned to the forums in a few days because I surely would have gotten another slap on the wrist and strongarmed outta here for a few days, weeks, or possibly months... call me the ignorant one if you must, but I have read and reread the comments I was involved with and I don't see where the line was crossed on either side of the discussion and warranted any type of "warning" But since the moderators feel like I have overstepped my boundaries and feel a need to step in and stop the madness, You won't have to worry about me contributing to this discussion again.

 

Having said that, I'll say one last thing while showing myself to the door,

turning the topic into a 'discussion for a solution' is much better than debating pro's and con's (which before anyone points fingers, Is the only thing I see I was guilty of)

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I may be wrong but it seems to me that the one main issue that keeps coming up is that if the new owner of the coin wipes the history clean it erases the icon and personal log from peoples profile page. What if we suggest to GS that once a log has been made and the icon added to a personal profile page then it is locked on that page regardless of the status of the coins page. So then the list of found/discovered coin icons are seperate from what goes on with the coins page itself. Adding to that you could always have it so when a coin owner cleans the history of a coin then there could be an archived coin history page that accessable by those that have logged it and is not connected to the coin page at all and does not continue to add more to it after the wipe date.

I have not read all the pages of this tread, but here are my thoughts:

 

I don't like the idea of separating the icon and log from the coin page - I have several times deleted logs on my coins where the discovery of my coin has been done on an event somewhere in the world and I know I have the coin in a binder at home. I don't think the icon should remain on the cacher's profile then... (I always send a mail to the cacher explaining why I have deleted the log)

 

I like the idea of a "second tab" with old logs when the coin changes owner.

 

And for the record - I have not deleted and logs off any coins I have adopted.

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I may be wrong but it seems to me that the one main issue that keeps coming up is that if the new owner of the coin wipes the history clean it erases the icon and personal log from peoples profile page. What if we suggest to GS that once a log has been made and the icon added to a personal profile page then it is locked on that page regardless of the status of the coins page. So then the list of found/discovered coin icons are seperate from what goes on with the coins page itself. Adding to that you could always have it so when a coin owner cleans the history of a coin then there could be an archived coin history page that accessable by those that have logged it and is not connected to the coin page at all and does not continue to add more to it after the wipe date.

I have not read all the pages of this tread, but here are my thoughts:

 

I don't like the idea of separating the icon and log from the coin page - I have several times deleted logs on my coins where the discovery of my coin has been done on an event somewhere in the world and I know I have the coin in a binder at home. I don't think the icon should remain on the cacher's profile then... (I always send a mail to the cacher explaining why I have deleted the log)

 

I like the idea of a "second tab" with old logs when the coin changes owner.

 

And for the record - I have not deleted and logs off any coins I have adopted.

 

I agree you should be able to delete virtual logs.

Were trying to stop the deletion of legit logs that were deleted

For no reason except for the owner of the coin doesn't want to

See the logs on his/her coin page

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Wow... I guess I was always aware that it could happen, but I thought it would need a better reason than because someone simply decides to start over. Be that as it may...

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding the whole concept of caches and geocoins I thought the point in logging anything was to have a permanent record in MY PROFILE of what I've done while caching. I don't understand how someone wiping the slate clean on their coin should have any affect on MY DISCOVERY. For that matter I don't understand why someone can remove MY FIND from a cache either. It has no bearing on anyone but me what I've done. It occurs to me that the problem is in the system itself. My actions should be recorded to my profile, not to the items I run into while caching which appears to be how it's working currently. Why should anyone EVER lose a record on their profile of what they've done while caching? If this isn't resolved then it really begs the question of why bother ever logging any find or cache? If my log is only good until someone else decides to remove it then why bother?

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Wow... I guess I was always aware that it could happen, but I thought it would need a better reason than because someone simply decides to start over. Be that as it may...

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding the whole concept of caches and geocoins I thought the point in logging anything was to have a permanent record in MY PROFILE of what I've done while caching. I don't understand how someone wiping the slate clean on their coin should have any affect on MY DISCOVERY. For that matter I don't understand why someone can remove MY FIND from a cache either. It has no bearing on anyone but me what I've done. It occurs to me that the problem is in the system itself. My actions should be recorded to my profile, not to the items I run into while caching which appears to be how it's working currently. Why should anyone EVER lose a record on their profile of what they've done while caching? If this isn't resolved then it really begs the question of why bother ever logging any find or cache? If my log is only good until someone else decides to remove it then why bother?

Understand what you mean by this.

 

BUT... consider the fact that if something is changed, such as deletions, in essence (previous) action or device never existed. Long story made short, your action as a history of the device (be it a cache, TB or geocoin) is eradicated.

 

That is why caches are archived and not simply erased.

 

There are many terms that could be used to describe the actions of somebody who deletes logs, etc. en mass. For the most part, none of those terms would reflect favorably on the person who did that. Some just don't understand or "get it" -- you have to live with that fact.

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Wow... I guess I was always aware that it could happen, but I thought it would need a better reason than because someone simply decides to start over. Be that as it may...

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding the whole concept of caches and geocoins I thought the point in logging anything was to have a permanent record in MY PROFILE of what I've done while caching. I don't understand how someone wiping the slate clean on their coin should have any affect on MY DISCOVERY. For that matter I don't understand why someone can remove MY FIND from a cache either. It has no bearing on anyone but me what I've done. It occurs to me that the problem is in the system itself. My actions should be recorded to my profile, not to the items I run into while caching which appears to be how it's working currently. Why should anyone EVER lose a record on their profile of what they've done while caching? If this isn't resolved then it really begs the question of why bother ever logging any find or cache? If my log is only good until someone else decides to remove it then why bother?

Understand what you mean by this.

 

BUT... consider the fact that if something is changed, such as deletions, in essence (previous) action or device never existed. Long story made short, your action as a history of the device (be it a cache, TB or geocoin) is eradicated.

 

That is why caches are archived and not simply erased.

 

There are many terms that could be used to describe the actions of somebody who deletes logs, etc. en mass. For the most part, none of those terms would reflect favorably on the person who did that. Some just don't understand or "get it" -- you have to live with that fact.

 

Ummm... no? Just because a new action has occured, it doesn't mean I haven't taken part in some action in the past. I have had great memories including stories, photos, etc. all wrapped up in a log on a geocoin that I carried on a mission more than 2,000 miles. Just because a few years down the road someone sells that coin doesn't invalidate that I have a personal investment in the time and energy taken to record my experience. I recorded the experience for me, not just the coin owner. The log belongs to me as much as it belongs to the original owner (be it cache or coin).

 

Which brings me back to the original point. The logs are supposed to be personal recordings of your personal involvement in the world of geocaching. Giving anyone else the ability to eradicate those logs (for any reason) makes the whole point of creating the logs moot. It wasted effort if you can't guarantee they'll exist twelve months from now. ;)

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If a cache is adopted, it's very much a Bad Thing if the new owner decides to wipe out all the previous find logs. If a cache is archived, the logs remain for previous cachers (who can still delete them if they want). If a find log is deemed bogus by logging rules for the cache type, it can be deleted - by the geocacher, by the CO, or by a reviewer.

 

For a trackable, if it's adopted out, it shouldn't be allowed to be wiped clean, permanently, at the loss of geocachers' personal logs on that item. The new owner should have the ability to present the item's listing as they see fit, but they should not be able to delete logs. Archive, perhaps, so they remain in the geocacher's profile, and hide from public display at most. Deleting logs en masse is a Bad Thing, just like it is for a cache listing. Deleting logs for legitimate reasons (such as virtual discoveries, if the owner sees it an invalid discovery) then fine - just like cache listings depend on the requirements for logging a cache type.

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You know the answer to all of this is to just request to discover the coin again, Ask the new owner that since you discovered this coin in the past, if they would not mind you discovering it again with a current date. That would make everyone happy.

 

Not possible, unless of course the coin owner is willing to meet with all of the people who had their logs deleted. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a virtual log, likely to get the coin locked completely. Hopefully not a practice that you're using with any of your many geocoins.

No, They have already seen this coin, the owner is not handing out the tracking # to everybody, just those who logged it previously. And I resent your implication of me doing such a thing I am fully aware of the rules regarding virtual logging!

 

if they are willing to let them relog the coin then what was the point

of deleting them in the 1st place

why were they not just left on there

Because, The new owner has initiated a new activation date and and new starting point, so they don't want logs predating the activation. That's why. simple really

I say don't be so cheap and buy unactivatied coins and you wouldn't have any drama. :rolleyes::laughing:

Being Cheap has NOTHING to do with it. Some coins are no longer available to buy from a vendor, so you have to buy them from a private party. Don't be ignorant. I have many coins are activated and more so that are not.

Actually, the one being 'Cheap' here is not the one that purchases the coin, but the one that discovers it. The purchaser of the geocoin has purchased the right to that icon, but the discovery geocacher has done nothing but look at it.

I for one will not allow discovery logs on some of my trackables if it is done so at an event. I do not go to events to make discovery on geocoins because I don't believe that is an earned icon, and I will delete any logs on my coins where I have asked that the item not to be taken to events. I for one like the liberty of doing so and would not be in favor of the those logs being locked.

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<snip...snip...snip>

 

Actually, the one being 'Cheap' here is not the one that purchases the coin, but the one that discovers it. The purchaser of the geocoin has purchased the right to that icon, but the discovery geocacher has done nothing but look at it.

I for one will not allow discovery logs on some of my trackables if it is done so at an event. I do not go to events to make discovery on geocoins because I don't believe that is an earned icon, and I will delete any logs on my coins where I have asked that the item not to be taken to events. I for one like the liberty of doing so and would not be in favor of the those logs being locked.

 

I think the "cheap" comment was already discussed and apologized for, so I would hope we don't need to continue to address that. You make a very good point though. The one who purchases the coin, be it new or used, does "pay for" the icon. I also recognize your right to request that YOUR coins not be discovered at events. They're your coins and you have the right to request that. However, in the game of geocaching and in extension, geocoining...discovering IS allowed and a reward IS granted for doing so.

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<snip...snip...snip>

 

Actually, the one being 'Cheap' here is not the one that purchases the coin, but the one that discovers it. The purchaser of the geocoin has purchased the right to that icon, but the discovery geocacher has done nothing but look at it.

I for one will not allow discovery logs on some of my trackables if it is done so at an event. I do not go to events to make discovery on geocoins because I don't believe that is an earned icon, and I will delete any logs on my coins where I have asked that the item not to be taken to events. I for one like the liberty of doing so and would not be in favor of the those logs being locked.

 

I think the "cheap" comment was already discussed and apologized for, so I would hope we don't need to continue to address that. You make a very good point though. The one who purchases the coin, be it new or used, does "pay for" the icon. I also recognize your right to request that YOUR coins not be discovered at events. They're your coins and you have the right to request that. However, in the game of geocaching and in extension, geocoining...discovering IS allowed and a reward IS granted for doing so.

The 'Cheap' comment may have been addressed already, but I felt that my view point needed to be made.

Also, The tracking #'s were added to geocoins a few years back at the pleasure of the geocoin owner so they could benefit from watching it being moved by other geocachers. This original idea was strictly for the geocoin owner and not the person that moved it and the original icons for coins were all the same, generic. When the unique Icon was developed and introduced it pretty much created a monster with geocachers wanting to collect these tiny pics. But in reality, the geocoin is owned and so is that icon.

In The original content of this thread it was stated that the only logs removed were discovery logs at a single event. That coin never moved again. With discovery logging at events, alot times the loggers have never really seen the item, they just received a tracking # list to log, and never saw the coin and did not even know what they were logging. The owner of these coins should have the option to get rid of these logs when purchasing an activated coin.

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<snip...snip...snip>

 

Actually, the one being 'Cheap' here is not the one that purchases the coin, but the one that discovers it. The purchaser of the geocoin has purchased the right to that icon, but the discovery geocacher has done nothing but look at it.

I for one will not allow discovery logs on some of my trackables if it is done so at an event. I do not go to events to make discovery on geocoins because I don't believe that is an earned icon, and I will delete any logs on my coins where I have asked that the item not to be taken to events. I for one like the liberty of doing so and would not be in favor of the those logs being locked.

 

I think the "cheap" comment was already discussed and apologized for, so I would hope we don't need to continue to address that. You make a very good point though. The one who purchases the coin, be it new or used, does "pay for" the icon. I also recognize your right to request that YOUR coins not be discovered at events. They're your coins and you have the right to request that. However, in the game of geocaching and in extension, geocoining...discovering IS allowed and a reward IS granted for doing so.

The 'Cheap' comment may have been addressed already, but I felt that my view point needed to be made.

Also, The tracking #'s were added to geocoins a few years back at the pleasure of the geocoin owner so they could benefit from watching it being moved by other geocachers. This original idea was strictly for the geocoin owner and not the person that moved it and the original icons for coins were all the same, generic. When the unique Icon was developed and introduced it pretty much created a monster with geocachers wanting to collect these tiny pics. But in reality, the geocoin is owned and so is that icon.

In The original content of this thread it was stated that the only logs removed were discovery logs at a single event. That coin never moved again. With discovery logging at events, alot times the loggers have never really seen the item, they just received a tracking # list to log, and never saw the coin and did not even know what they were logging. The owner of these coins should have the option to get rid of these logs when purchasing an activated coin.

 

OK then, how do you differentiate between those who never saw the geocoin and those who picked it up and turned it over and over in their fingers for several minutes muttering "Wow" "Great geocoin"...?

 

ETA - the later certainly deserve the icon IMO!

Edited by keewee
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<snip...snip...snip>

 

Actually, the one being 'Cheap' here is not the one that purchases the coin, but the one that discovers it. The purchaser of the geocoin has purchased the right to that icon, but the discovery geocacher has done nothing but look at it.

I for one will not allow discovery logs on some of my trackables if it is done so at an event. I do not go to events to make discovery on geocoins because I don't believe that is an earned icon, and I will delete any logs on my coins where I have asked that the item not to be taken to events. I for one like the liberty of doing so and would not be in favor of the those logs being locked.

 

I think the "cheap" comment was already discussed and apologized for, so I would hope we don't need to continue to address that. You make a very good point though. The one who purchases the coin, be it new or used, does "pay for" the icon. I also recognize your right to request that YOUR coins not be discovered at events. They're your coins and you have the right to request that. However, in the game of geocaching and in extension, geocoining...discovering IS allowed and a reward IS granted for doing so.

The 'Cheap' comment may have been addressed already, but I felt that my view point needed to be made.

Also, The tracking #'s were added to geocoins a few years back at the pleasure of the geocoin owner so they could benefit from watching it being moved by other geocachers. This original idea was strictly for the geocoin owner and not the person that moved it and the original icons for coins were all the same, generic. When the unique Icon was developed and introduced it pretty much created a monster with geocachers wanting to collect these tiny pics. But in reality, the geocoin is owned and so is that icon.

In The original content of this thread it was stated that the only logs removed were discovery logs at a single event. That coin never moved again. With discovery logging at events, alot times the loggers have never really seen the item, they just received a tracking # list to log, and never saw the coin and did not even know what they were logging. The owner of these coins should have the option to get rid of these logs when purchasing an activated coin.

 

OK then, how do you differentiate between those who never saw the geocoin and those who picked it up and turned it over and over in their fingers for several minutes muttering "Wow" "Great geocoin"...?

 

ETA - the later certainly deserve the icon IMO!

Well, the NEW owner would not know this, but it should still be Their Option to keep or remove these logs. You are getting upset with the new owner but they are not the ones getting rid of these coins, maybe before logging a coin at an event you should ask the owner if they plan on keeping this coin forever.

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<snip...snip...snip>

 

Actually, the one being 'Cheap' here is not the one that purchases the coin, but the one that discovers it. The purchaser of the geocoin has purchased the right to that icon, but the discovery geocacher has done nothing but look at it.

I for one will not allow discovery logs on some of my trackables if it is done so at an event. I do not go to events to make discovery on geocoins because I don't believe that is an earned icon, and I will delete any logs on my coins where I have asked that the item not to be taken to events. I for one like the liberty of doing so and would not be in favor of the those logs being locked.

 

I think the "cheap" comment was already discussed and apologized for, so I would hope we don't need to continue to address that. You make a very good point though. The one who purchases the coin, be it new or used, does "pay for" the icon. I also recognize your right to request that YOUR coins not be discovered at events. They're your coins and you have the right to request that. However, in the game of geocaching and in extension, geocoining...discovering IS allowed and a reward IS granted for doing so.

The 'Cheap' comment may have been addressed already, but I felt that my view point needed to be made.

Also, The tracking #'s were added to geocoins a few years back at the pleasure of the geocoin owner so they could benefit from watching it being moved by other geocachers. This original idea was strictly for the geocoin owner and not the person that moved it and the original icons for coins were all the same, generic. When the unique Icon was developed and introduced it pretty much created a monster with geocachers wanting to collect these tiny pics. But in reality, the geocoin is owned and so is that icon.

In The original content of this thread it was stated that the only logs removed were discovery logs at a single event. That coin never moved again. With discovery logging at events, alot times the loggers have never really seen the item, they just received a tracking # list to log, and never saw the coin and did not even know what they were logging. The owner of these coins should have the option to get rid of these logs when purchasing an activated coin.

 

OK then, how do you differentiate between those who never saw the geocoin and those who picked it up and turned it over and over in their fingers for several minutes muttering "Wow" "Great geocoin"...?

 

ETA - the later certainly deserve the icon IMO!

Well, the NEW owner would not know this, but it should still be Their Option to keep or remove these logs. You are getting upset with the new owner but they are not the ones getting rid of these coins, maybe before logging a coin at an event you should ask the owner if they plan on keeping this coin forever.

 

That's not feasible. If you want to change peoples minds, you need to come up with something that's at the very least reasonable. Things happen. Folks lose jobs. Guys stop geocaching. People die.

 

I'm still wishing and waiting for one solid reason to come up for continuing to allow deleted logs of the regular variety. Not the mistake logs, not the editing of logs, but the deletion of rightful discovery logs for no apparent reason. It's fine if you want to argue your point, but what exactly is your point?

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<snip...snip...snip>

 

Actually, the one being 'Cheap' here is not the one that purchases the coin, but the one that discovers it. The purchaser of the geocoin has purchased the right to that icon, but the discovery geocacher has done nothing but look at it.

I for one will not allow discovery logs on some of my trackables if it is done so at an event. I do not go to events to make discovery on geocoins because I don't believe that is an earned icon, and I will delete any logs on my coins where I have asked that the item not to be taken to events. I for one like the liberty of doing so and would not be in favor of the those logs being locked.

 

I think the "cheap" comment was already discussed and apologized for, so I would hope we don't need to continue to address that. You make a very good point though. The one who purchases the coin, be it new or used, does "pay for" the icon. I also recognize your right to request that YOUR coins not be discovered at events. They're your coins and you have the right to request that. However, in the game of geocaching and in extension, geocoining...discovering IS allowed and a reward IS granted for doing so.

The 'Cheap' comment may have been addressed already, but I felt that my view point needed to be made.

Also, The tracking #'s were added to geocoins a few years back at the pleasure of the geocoin owner so they could benefit from watching it being moved by other geocachers. This original idea was strictly for the geocoin owner and not the person that moved it and the original icons for coins were all the same, generic. When the unique Icon was developed and introduced it pretty much created a monster with geocachers wanting to collect these tiny pics. But in reality, the geocoin is owned and so is that icon.

In The original content of this thread it was stated that the only logs removed were discovery logs at a single event. That coin never moved again. With discovery logging at events, alot times the loggers have never really seen the item, they just received a tracking # list to log, and never saw the coin and did not even know what they were logging. The owner of these coins should have the option to get rid of these logs when purchasing an activated coin.

 

OK then, how do you differentiate between those who never saw the geocoin and those who picked it up and turned it over and over in their fingers for several minutes muttering "Wow" "Great geocoin"...?

 

ETA - the later certainly deserve the icon IMO!

Well, the NEW owner would not know this, but it should still be Their Option to keep or remove these logs. You are getting upset with the new owner but they are not the ones getting rid of these coins, maybe before logging a coin at an event you should ask the owner if they plan on keeping this coin forever.

 

Whether it should be Their Option to keep or remove these logs is the matter of discussion here and personally I'm hoping that GS will make a ruling one way or another based on the players opinions. Your opinion seems to be that they should. Mine is that they shouldn't. (Keep in mind that I also have a very strong feeling about the log itself...not JUST the icon.)

 

That being said, I'm not upset with anyone who is still playing by the rules. Currently the rules allow deleting. I want to see that changed to protect EVERYONE'S rights in this game.

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<snip...snip...snip>

 

Actually, the one being 'Cheap' here is not the one that purchases the coin, but the one that discovers it. The purchaser of the geocoin has purchased the right to that icon, but the discovery geocacher has done nothing but look at it.

I for one will not allow discovery logs on some of my trackables if it is done so at an event. I do not go to events to make discovery on geocoins because I don't believe that is an earned icon, and I will delete any logs on my coins where I have asked that the item not to be taken to events. I for one like the liberty of doing so and would not be in favor of the those logs being locked.

 

I think the "cheap" comment was already discussed and apologized for, so I would hope we don't need to continue to address that. You make a very good point though. The one who purchases the coin, be it new or used, does "pay for" the icon. I also recognize your right to request that YOUR coins not be discovered at events. They're your coins and you have the right to request that. However, in the game of geocaching and in extension, geocoining...discovering IS allowed and a reward IS granted for doing so.

The 'Cheap' comment may have been addressed already, but I felt that my view point needed to be made.

Also, The tracking #'s were added to geocoins a few years back at the pleasure of the geocoin owner so they could benefit from watching it being moved by other geocachers. This original idea was strictly for the geocoin owner and not the person that moved it and the original icons for coins were all the same, generic. When the unique Icon was developed and introduced it pretty much created a monster with geocachers wanting to collect these tiny pics. But in reality, the geocoin is owned and so is that icon.

In The original content of this thread it was stated that the only logs removed were discovery logs at a single event. That coin never moved again. With discovery logging at events, alot times the loggers have never really seen the item, they just received a tracking # list to log, and never saw the coin and did not even know what they were logging. The owner of these coins should have the option to get rid of these logs when purchasing an activated coin.

 

OK then, how do you differentiate between those who never saw the geocoin and those who picked it up and turned it over and over in their fingers for several minutes muttering "Wow" "Great geocoin"...?

 

ETA - the later certainly deserve the icon IMO!

Well, the NEW owner would not know this, but it should still be Their Option to keep or remove these logs. You are getting upset with the new owner but they are not the ones getting rid of these coins, maybe before logging a coin at an event you should ask the owner if they plan on keeping this coin forever.

 

That's not feasible. If you want to change peoples minds, you need to come up with something that's at the very least reasonable. Things happen. Folks lose jobs. Guys stop geocaching. People die.

 

I'm still wishing and waiting for one solid reason to come up for continuing to allow deleted logs of the regular variety. Not the mistake logs, not the editing of logs, but the deletion of rightful discovery logs for no apparent reason. It's fine if you want to argue your point, but what exactly is your point?

The point is - I do not have to convince you or anybody else as I am not asking for a rule change, you are. I prefer it to stay the way it is. and far as I am concerned you have not convinced me that it should change because the issue is not vast enough, not everyone removes logs only a very small few do this and from what I have read they are only discovery logs from events nothing more so this to me does not warrant a rule change.

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Whether it should be Their Option to keep or remove these logs is the matter of discussion here and personally I'm hoping that GS will make a ruling one way or another based on the players opinions. Your opinion seems to be that they should. Mine is that they shouldn't. (Keep in mind that I also have a very strong feeling about the log itself...not JUST the icon.)

 

That being said, I'm not upset with anyone who is still playing by the rules. Currently the rules allow deleting. I want to see that changed to protect EVERYONE'S rights in this game.

Discovery on coins is a Privilege - not a right

Edited by randomincoherencies
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Whether it should be Their Option to keep or remove these logs is the matter of discussion here and personally I'm hoping that GS will make a ruling one way or another based on the players opinions. Your opinion seems to be that they should. Mine is that they shouldn't. (Keep in mind that I also have a very strong feeling about the log itself...not JUST the icon.)

 

That being said, I'm not upset with anyone who is still playing by the rules. Currently the rules allow deleting. I want to see that changed to protect EVERYONE'S rights in this game.

Discovery on coins is a Privilege - not a right

 

I would strongly disagree with you there. Why? Because Discovered is an option on the geocoin page - therefore it is a right for anyone who see's that geocoin. Not a privilege. (IMO)

 

(Oh, and I corrected your missing quote marker - you should too in your previous post, otherwise it will cause problems for anyone using Reply on your post. (Your missing the start quote for imoutnabout))

Edited by keewee
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Whether it should be Their Option to keep or remove these logs is the matter of discussion here and personally I'm hoping that GS will make a ruling one way or another based on the players opinions. Your opinion seems to be that they should. Mine is that they shouldn't. (Keep in mind that I also have a very strong feeling about the log itself...not JUST the icon.)

 

That being said, I'm not upset with anyone who is still playing by the rules. Currently the rules allow deleting. I want to see that changed to protect EVERYONE'S rights in this game.

Discovery on coins is a Privilege - not a right

 

I would strongly disagree with you there. Why? Because Discovered is an option on the geocoin page - therefore it is a right for anyone who see's that geocoin. Not a privilege. (IMO)

 

(Oh, and I corrected your missing quote marker - you should too in your previous post, otherwise it will cause problems for anyone using Reply on your post. (Your missing the start quote for imoutnabout))

Oh I'm sorry - I was not aware there was 'Bill of Rights' for logging geocoins. Can you send me that link please.

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