Weird GPS behavior.

[+DM&K Cachers]

Well I just don't know how/where else to find this information, so I'm posting this as a question. Last night (01-26-12)the fam went out for a cache. We normally use our Blackberry phones with Trimble Geocache Navigator for quick suburban caches, but last night neither of our phones could determine our location. I tried my BlackStar app, which placed us 6,000 miles away. My phone has Geosense as well, and it also would not locate.

 

Two different phones, various locations throughout our suburban neighborhood, multiple attempts to "reset" the GPS by shutting down and removing batteries - to no avail. My question is: Why would this happen? Surely someone out there knows enough about GPS that they could explain this phenom in lay terms. Is it the phones? The wireless provider? Solar storms? Why would two different phones that normally work fine lose the ability to locate, or place us 6,000 miles away?

 

Thanks for any insight you can provide!

DM&K Cachers

[+hzoi]

Why would this happen? Surely someone out there knows enough about GPS that they could explain this phenom in lay terms. Is it the phones? The wireless provider? Solar storms? Why would two different phones that normally work fine lose the ability to locate, or place us 6,000 miles away?

 

Thanks for any insight you can provide!

DM&K Cachers

 

Could be solar storms.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

Dunno for sure if it was solar storms, but the earth was just bombarded heavily over the last couple of days. That could have been your problem.

 

Wait for the really big one, lessee wat hoppens. Electronics don't agree with solar storms, or EMP, if you prefer.

[tomowens]

There are some times when there just doesn't seem to be a good enough arrangement of the satellites for me to get a location. It's rare, but I have seen it happen before.

 

When it does occur, it affects my phones and my dedicated GPSr's all the same. I can call up the 'satellite view' and typically will find that there are three or four to be found just above the horizon with several in the same basic direction. The number of satellites 35 degrees and up is very small.

 

BTW: I noticed this effect on January 26th as well. It was in the morning, in Colorado. Later everything was OK again.

[+Ranger Roo]

You don't have a new case for your phones? I had a case for my htc that had a metallic finish and when I was using it, it could connect to satalites at all

[+LightHouseSeekers]

Solar Storms

[+Glenn]

I highly doubt it was solar storm related. First, Solar storms are usually short lived. Second, you'd lose accuracy before it would put you hundreds much less thousands of miles away.

 

I found 6000 miles an interesting number because that is the minimum altitude for the GPS satellite constellation. Although I think that just a funny coincidence.

 

What I suspect is that you had a + where a - should be or vice-versa or you had N and S or E and W swapped. At it's widest point the earth is 7926 miles in diameter. Swapping signs would put the cache in another quadrant of the earth and thousands of miles away.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Glenn

[+user13371]

...6000 miles ... is the minimum altitude for the GPS satellite constellation.

Say what?

Edited January 27, 2012 by Portland Cyclist

[+Glenn]

...6000 miles ... is the minimum altitude for the GPS satellite constellation.

Say what?

 

Yep, Navsats are located from 6,000 to 12,000 miles up.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/satellite7.htm

[+Doctroid]

Electronics don't agree with solar storms, or EMP, if you prefer.

 

Solar storms and electromagnetic pulses are two different things, though.

[+DM&K Cachers]

Well, interesting for sure. We didn't have metal cases on the phones, and we didn't type in coords (the issue was with locating US - we never got to the actual caching stage) so it couldn't have been a +/- error. As for the other stuff, my specialty is biology, so I have no idea about any of that!

 

I do like Tom's response. I think this has happened maybe once or twice before, and it was fine the next morning. One of those things, I guess.

 

Thanks for all of your ideas!

-K

[diggingest_dogg616]

I would guess either the solar storms that have been talked about recently.

 

If I don't use my Google Sky Map for awhile then it acts weird and doesn't know where it's facing or anything, but I think that's more of an accelerometer issue Anyways, to get it working again I have to do these big figure eights with the phone (trying not to drop it or throw it ). That probably won't work if it is a solar storm issue (which is probably the case all things considered) but maybe you'll need my goofy figure eight trick someday Probably not, but I can pretend

 

Oh, also, the GPS on my phone will act weird if I'm like, under or almost under a bridge.

[+Glenn]

Well, interesting for sure. We didn't have metal cases on the phones, and we didn't type in coords (the issue was with locating US - we never got to the actual caching stage) so it couldn't have been a +/- error. As for the other stuff, my specialty is biology, so I have no idea about any of that!

 

I do like Tom's response. I think this has happened maybe once or twice before, and it was fine the next morning. One of those things, I guess.

 

Thanks for all of your ideas!

-K

 

Oh, it is your location not the caches location. That is one this things that should never happen. I wonder if there isn't a bug in the software that the phone is running.

[+user13371]

...6000 miles ... is the minimum altitude for the GPS satellite constellation.

Yep, Navsats are located from 6,000 to 12,000 miles up.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/satellite7.htm

I think that reference you have is wrong, or at least imprecise and vague. Try Wikipedia instead: Global Positioning System, Space Segment.

 

"Navsats" as a general class of objects (any satellite used for some navigational purpose) might include more than just the GPS constellation though.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Portland Cyclist

[+DsrtMtnRox]

Are the solar storms still going on as of today? Sunday, Jan. 29th?

[+Glenn]

Are the solar storms still going on as of today? Sunday, Jan. 29th?

 

You can check out current conditions for self at http://spaceweather.com/

 

Are you having the same issues as DM&K Cachers? I really think their problem is a software or firmware issue. If this happens again it would interesting to know which satellites the GPSr is receiving at that time. If you are receiving a satellite or two that you shouldn't be because it is currently located beyond your LOS (line of sight) then there must be serious atmospheric ducting going on.

 

The last time we had a lot of solar activity the only thing I noticed was that my EPE (Estimated Position Error) was very high at times. It would only last for a few minutes or an hour at most. It never got bad enough to place me more than a hundred feet away even when my EPE was reading a lot higher than that. I image if a storm was really severe then the signals would be so bad that your GPSr wouldn't be able to decode them and you'd get no position data at all.

[+DsrtMtnRox]

Are the solar storms still going on as of today? Sunday, Jan. 29th?

 

You can check out current conditions for self at http://spaceweather.com/

 

Are you having the same issues as DM&K Cachers? I really think their problem is a software or firmware issue. If this happens again it would interesting to know which satellites the GPSr is receiving at that time. If you are receiving a satellite or two that you shouldn't be because it is currently located beyond your LOS (line of sight) then there must be serious atmospheric ducting going on.

 

The last time we had a lot of solar activity the only thing I noticed was that my EPE (Estimated Position Error) was very high at times. It would only last for a few minutes or an hour at most. It never got bad enough to place me more than a hundred feet away even when my EPE was reading a lot higher than that. I image if a storm was really severe then the signals would be so bad that your GPSr wouldn't be able to decode them and you'd get no position data at all.

I was just wondering because I am hiding my first cache and I was heading out later today to average my waypoint. If there are solar issues I am thinking it would be best to wait?

[+Glenn]

I was just wondering because I am hiding my first cache and I was heading out later today to average my waypoint. If there are solar issues I am thinking it would be best to wait?

 

I'd hide the cache.

Today's GPSrs can handle "a minor disturbance in the force". Most GPSrs will give you an accuracy reading, if you know where to find it. You can always use online mapping software to gauge the accuracy but the online maps are sometimes off themselves. And you can always revisit the cache later and update coords if they prove to be off.