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Using 5/5 caches and Multis, etc. as examples is missing the point. Use a rock climbing cache for example. The abilities of the cacher are what determine whether or not they can do the cache. If they can rock climb, they can find the cache. BUT. If they are able to get a hot air balloon to take them to the cache and log it, they can get the smiley online (which has happened). Same with a Multi. It has happened that people have found finals without doing the multi work, and technically, they can get the smiley because they signed the physical log. I am partially handicapped, and I was able to log the Ape cache in Washington state because I was able to take a golf cart to the cache site. I made it work (along with lots of friends and family help). If I hadn't been able to do it, then I would have said, "oh well".

 

Saying that people can't get the attended designation if they don't tent overnight is a cache owner restriction, like an ALR. An event is a meet up at a specific time and place, not an activity like tenting overnight. If a person can physically show up to the event, they can attend it. This puts the onus on the cacher, not the cache owner. If the cache owner wants to "force" people to camp overnight, then they need to have the event at a place that takes at least a day to hike in, so people have to camp overnight before returning the next day. But even then, someone could hypothetically take a helicopter to the event coordinates and still attend. They were there, they attended.

 

See the differences?

 

We've hosted several rafting events. I would love it if everyone went rafting, but I'm not going to try and force them. I myself haven't been able to raft in any of them, because of my health. Cachers can show up when the rafters get together and have lunch at the end of the rafting trip. The event attendees can see how much fun everyone had rafting, and hopefully next time they may choose to raft. :) It's not my prerogative as an event owner to force them to do an activity other than showing up.

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Is it not the camping event setters who are discriminating against disabled cachers rather than vice versa?

 

I will use Wendy Dorsetgirl as an example as she one of the less abled cachers I can think of that I am sure others on this thread will know too (I hope she will fogive me for using her as an example [:D])

 

So you book your campsite and make your event for campers only, that means your event is not open to all, as Wendy can not attend as she can not stay over night due to her disabilities, so you are discriminating against her, I have a choice I can camp or not a disabled person does not have that choice.

 

I agree with Lilian but in a different way...I won't climb a mountain for an event but that is my choice, I won't sleep in a tent but that is my choice, I won't go to an event 200 miles away but again that is my choice...but I could do all of the aforementioned things is I wanted to, you have to give people the choice whether they want to attend your event or not.

 

ALR have been banned from caches at the moment they are banned from events too, lets hope it stays that way, for once Groundspeak have made a good decision, I am sure it will all change soon though [:(]

 

One question to folks on this thread who hold camping events. If it was campers only at your event would you tell Wendy she could not attend because she could not stay overnight? If "yes" I think she would throw some rules/regulations/laws at you. If "no" then you can't have one rule for one and another for another so if Wendy can attend and not stay over night then so can Joe Bloggs and Fanny Adams.

 

This large FaceBook group/thread sounds good .. is it invites only?

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A question..

 

If this Gudelines were to be enforced so you HAD to camp at a camping event, how would it work for the Mega?

 

The only difference between your camping event with a half a dozen friends and the Mega camping Event is the number of people attending

 

So for daftness lets just say 1,500 people go to this years Mega, 500 people stay on the designated Mega Camp Site, 500 people stay in nearby hotels, B N B's, other campsites with relations ect, and 500 people live close enough to drive back and forth to the events each day from home.

 

Do the Mega Committee tell 1,000 people that they are not allowed to log the Mega Camping event because they did not camp on the site overnight?

If so I don't think the UK will be having many more Megas!!!

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If this Gudelines were to be enforced so you HAD to camp at a camping event, how would it work for the Mega?

 

 

To be clear, the request isn't that camping is compulsory at all camping events, just that occasionally its necessary/desirable to hold a camping event where camping overnight is required.

 

That has already happened. See Carry Yer Own Camping, and the event referenced above.

Unfortunately, thanks in no small part to this thread, that now looks to be a thing of the past. :(

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That has already happened. See Carry Yer Own Camping, and the event referenced above.

This is the bit I've never been able to understand. The event text says;

to qualify for the event you must camp overnight on Saturday night
.

What does it mean "qualify"? Surely you just turn up and enjoy the event, don't you? I'm not sure I'd like to be turned away because I don't "qualify".

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So if I'm understanding this right.

It's not ok to list a camping event because Wendy cant camp but its ok to list one miles onto moorland where she might not be able to get to?

That it was ok for some events to be published if you got lucky with your reviewer but other people should have theirs refused.

That its ok for the company to have a clear open to all policy or they wont list it, unless the people not able to go are disabled or Muslim.

I'm sorry I've ruffled some feathers and caused some people trouble. However , this matter was not being dealt with it was sat waiting for someone to raise it with Seattle.

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I don’t understand the operation of the “open to all” ruling in the slightest. Surely when a campsite stay is involved, the campsite’s own rules have to be obeyed. No day visitors is a completely reasonable rule, it could be argued that it’s a sign of a safe and secure site.

 

Are Groundspeak saying that any restriction by the campsite automatically means that it’s not “open to all”? What if the site doesn’t allow dogs, or big RV’s, or only has a limited number of pitches?

 

Or are Groundspeak saying that during a camping event, anyone should be able to wander around the site at will?

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Guide to Hosting Event Cache

 

What usually occurs at an Event Cache?

 

Geocachers meet and greet, eat, play games and share stories about geocaching. Geocaching events should be free to participate. If you are hosting an outdoor event, make sure to ask land managers about any required permits.

 

The above text is taken from the current official Geocaching Guidelines.

It seems obvious to me that making it compulsory for geocachers to pay a commercial organisation (such as a camp-site owner) in order to 'attend', goes against this guideline.

 

Some people may also consider that you have to pay (to buy drinks etc) when attending a cache meet in a pub is just the same. But in practice of course, you don't have to if you don't want to. In the same way you don't have to buy raffle tickets etc. at the event.

 

Comparing events with geocaches requiring specialist equipment such as SCUBA diving, or mountaineering is not really relevant, because camping requires specialist equipment too with tents and everything associated with it. The difference is, you are being charged a fee to attend the camping event, whereas diving and mountaineering is free.

 

Whether you are capable of doing any or all of the above caches will always be down to individual circumstances and religion or physical ability should not be the issue here. It is whether the event is free or commercial.

 

I am sure those who enjoy camping will still attend camping events whether they get a geocaching smilie or not. I am all for camping events, but against restricting day visitors.

Edited by overanout
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"Guide to Hosting Event Cache

 

What usually occurs at an Event Cache?

 

Geocachers meet and greet, eat, play games and share stories about geocaching. Geocaching events should be free to participate. If you are hosting an outdoor event, make sure to ask land managers about any required permits."

 

But I cannot eat unless I hand over some dosh to the pub/restaurant, I doubt many places would be happy with my turning up and eating my own butties.

 

So the one statement contradicts the other.

 

I've always thought it a bit odd that events are listed as caches, now that we have a separate list for "Challenges" maybe events should be dealt with in a similar way.

 

I have the specialist equipment to attend a camping event and fortunately my health & fitness level is good enough for me to be able to attend and camp, so I do. I would not expect to not camp at a camping event as that, surely, is the whole point of a CAMPING event?

 

There are some events listed which I am excluded from because I do not have a good enough health and fitness level to attend them. The organisers of those events don't have to jump through hoops to make sure that I can be airlifted to the top of a mountain so I can claim a smiley so why should the organisers of a camping event have their hands tied in such a fashion?

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I think you will find event organisers have to jump through a lot of loops if they want to hold an event in certain areas..

 

Last year for my "ducks" event I was told it was a social gathering if I wanted to put up a gazebo, so lets not use it and save us both all the hassle and the paperwork, but no I wanted to put up the gazebos, it might rain, we needed a central gathering place and somewhere to put tables and food so I went through all the paperwork and permissions ect

 

The "teddies" event was even worse I had to submit an online form to the council, which then went to a council meeting, was checked by the council, the fire brigade, the police and St Johns Ambulance, I had to have fire extinguishers, a fully equipped first aid kit, a qualified First Aider at the event, then myself and another cacher had a meeting with the council, then I had a meeting with the park rangers to explain every detail of the event and get permission to set caches, and I have to do all of the above again this year to have the same two events in the same two places which I am in the process of doing.

 

So why go to all this hassle to hold just a day event you ask..because I want the events in these places, I want the events to be ligit and I want the events to have permission from the land owners and Groundspeak and mainly because I want my events to be open to all which the guidelines state they must be.

 

In my opinion if you are willing to be an event organiser then yes you do jump through a lot of hoops and if you really really want your event to be successful then you will do it....and these are only day events, but before you come back saying camping events are different, I have been there too you find a campsite that accomodates all, I had to negotiate day vistors with a campsite .. beleive me most will agree when you start talking money you see the pound signs in their eyes!! and according to the guidelines you are allowed to charge a reasonable price to attend an event as long as no profit is made.

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TBH provided a campsite was accessible, and had accessible toilets etc I probably could camp, however, from previous experience at turning up and visiting a camping event at the appointed time, where we were frankly ignored and nobody knew what was happening, no central reporting point, all in their tents cos it was raining etc., I'm not likely to even bother with another. It wasn't a friendly experience at all.

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It's interesting to see regional differences. I don't think I've ever even heard of a campsite not allowing day visitors. All the campsites around here, and all the campsites that I've been to, allow them (sometimes for a fee for the car). Also, in our area, I've never had problems with people coming to a restaurant and being forced by the restaurant to buy something, they never seem to care (I'm sure they would if almost no one ate, but a few here and there don't seem to bother them). There's not a lot of hoops to go through locally.

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Last year's Mega committee will remember this well. In case you didn't know, I believe they paid a "fee" to the campsite to allow day visitors. That of course came out of their fundraising.

 

As one who travelled around looking for that camp site originally there was going to be no charge for day visitors and I was amazed when I heard that the camp site had requested this. As we had resigned through ill health by then, but I think that the camp site went 'ker-ching' and charged - my thoughts only as I do not know.

 

 

This is not quite what happened - so it is incorrect to accuse the campsite of money grabbing.

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Last year's Mega committee will remember this well. In case you didn't know, I believe they paid a "fee" to the campsite to allow day visitors. That of course came out of their fundraising.

 

As one who travelled around looking for that camp site originally there was going to be no charge for day visitors and I was amazed when I heard that the camp site had requested this. As we had resigned through ill health by then, but I think that the camp site went 'ker-ching' and charged - my thoughts only as I do not know.

 

 

This is not quite what happened - so it is incorrect to accuse the campsite of money grabbing.

 

 

Can I point out that the initial post in red was not from me but I was quoting from post #17 from 'The Other Stu'.

 

Which statement is incorrect?

 

My statement that there was not going to be a charge for day visitors? It was certainly high on the list of questions to be asked at all the camp sites we visited. No charge was agreed and you were there.

 

Or the second statement that the Mega Committee did not pay to allow for parking for day visitors to the site for the camping event?

 

We did not attend that event so we do not know what happened except what we were told. I know statement one to be correct, for a fact as both Tony and I were there.

 

Statement two I do not know about except what I was told and also others were told as stated by 'The Other Stu'.

 

No doubt this will become evident when the Mega Wales Committee finally publish their accounts for all to see.

 

After all the discussion on this topic of camping which is where we all started - I will now agree to disagree and get on with looking for a camp site in W Wales which allows day visitors but at least I now don't need to remember to put a log book in the caravan. :D

 

Lilian

Edited by mollyjak
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I will take the blame - it appears I might have got myself twisted. Firstly, I was very supportive of the Mega Wales event and I have absolutely no gripe with them - so anyone who was involved has no reason to see anything sinister in my comments.

 

I was led to believe that the committee paid the site a "fee". Apparently, of which, a percentage was donated to charity? (I leave a question mark deliberately). I don't have a problem either if they did or didn't.

 

Perhaps someone from the mega committee could answer the question....

 

"Did the mega committee offer an unsolicited donation to the campsite?"

 

If I'm honest, it's probably irrelevant. I know in the past that other camping events have had "paid-for" features which have been covered in other ways (asking for donations etc.)

 

i appear to also have upset others who think I want to start setting "friends-only" events or my opinion is "If you don't camp, I don't want to be friends". I have honestly no such wish.

 

My personal issue is that I've tried to setup camping events before but was limited to certain sites who allow day visitors and more suitable sites had to be overlooked.

 

I have since found out that you are allowed to charge a small fee. Considering most campsites charge a small fee for day visitors, I will take that into account. So please ignore anything I've said above or on bookface.

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MEGA Wales did pay additional monies to the Campsite to allow use of a field for car parking once it was evident how many people intended to attend the Camping Event. This field had been used on previous years on that weekend for a Scout Jamboree and the Camp site willing cancelled that booking to assist in accommodate the needs of MEGA Wales. This was not a "kerching" money grabbing ploy by the Camp Site as has been suggested by the uninformed, as a donation was then made by the Camp Site in support of the South Wales Air Ambulance.

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We are aware Simon that Mega Wales paid for day visitors that is not in question. You prompted me to revisit my notes that I took at the time of inspecting the camping site and surprise! they agreed to waive the parking and made no mention of any other use for that weekend. Now you seem to be stating that it had been used previously and booked accordingly. Again consulting my notes this was never mentioned at that time even after they checked their diary for us. It seems very strange that all of a sudden they found this booking or committment and charged Mega Wales for that amenity.

I still think that 2 and 2 make 4 but i'm sure you are likely to dispute as usual.

 

 

Regards

 

 

Tony ( mollyjak)

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I think that we are going "off topic" here as I thought the discussion was regarding whether it was possible to hold a "Camping Only" Event with the associated "Additional Logging Requirements" that Groundspeak appeared to put a stop to last year.

 

However having said that the Camping Event at the MEGA last year does indicate the potential issues that organisers of any Event, be they MEGA Events or an Event at a local pub" may have to cope with - that is uncertainty over the likely number of attendees.

 

The Camping Event had 307 attended logs, which probably equates to in excess of 600 attendees based on previous experiences with caching families and teams where you can normally multiple by at least two the number of logs - so the Camping Event was MEGA in its own right.

 

Mollyjak are correct that there were agreements put in in place with the Camp Site, albeit verbal, however I think it was soon clear to both parties that there needed to be a review of plans as the level of response from geocachers surpassed all expectations from the Camp Site and we virtually took over the whole site. Due to the level of interest, and an assessment of risk, it was necessary to review the original car parking arrangements and make additional provision for the large influx of day visitors.

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Quoted from the page:

This event will take place from February 11, 2012 22h until 7am on the morning of February 12, 2012 when signing the log book and the official photo group will take place.

So it looks like this is the way forward for getting people to actually camp at events.

Mind you the French are well known for making their own rules.

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Hi all

 

I really can't understand why people find it necessary to be able to log every event (whether camping related or not) that has been published. Is it really that difficult to admit that some events cannot be attended for whatever reason without automatically crying 'discrimination'? Before I get shot down I would like to make the point that I believe event organisers should try to make their event as accessible for all as possible but if this is can't be achieved why punish by not allowing publishing said event? Just a few examples

 

1: I can't (although I would like) climb big fells/mountains etc. Do I really expect to have a logbook at the bottom of said fell/mountain so I can claim a 5 terrain?

2: I don't have a problem with pub events - I like pubs, however do I ask for them to be stopped because I can't have a drink due to having to drive a car back home (after all, it may be miles away from home) or it being a school night? Not forgetting that some venues may not allow children (or pets) at all?

3: Oh yes, I would like to give extreme caching a try but I know that this is not very feasible, so do I expect all events which fall into that category not to be published due to them not being 'open to all'?

 

The list goes on but I am sure everyone has heard it all before.....

 

I really do think that if at all possible events should be made accessible for all but on the occasions that this is not possible surely common sense should prevail rather than having a 'spit out dummy time'.

 

PS: I am quite certain I published something similar a few years ago when camping event were published.

 

PPS: I think that it is really sad that seasoned camping event organisers have been put off publishing their regular camping events. Open for all? Yes, for all the non-campers

 

Ok, shoot me down :ph34r:

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This event appears not to follow the rules we follow in the UK, very expensive $70 a night and also Campers only, if my Degree in French serves me correctly

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=2efbf42f-22b8-494a-bb0e-527d0587ac02

 

$70 per night, for a 5 person teepee, is actually less than I'm used to paying over here per person....and I'd be expected to supply my own tent and fuel!

 

And your French must be better than mine - I don't see anything on that page about non-campers not being welcome?

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<snip>.... but on the occasions that this is not possible surely common sense should prevail ....<snip>

Ah! I quite agree but unfortunately common sense is something increasingly frowned upon these days. There was a time reviewers attempted to use common sense but this was stamped upon. Which is one reason for the proliferation of petty rules nowadays.

 

Sigh!!

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This event appears not to follow the rules we follow in the UK, very expensive $70 a night and also Campers only, if my Degree in French serves me correctly

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=2efbf42f-22b8-494a-bb0e-527d0587ac02

 

$70 per night, for a 5 person teepee, is actually less than I'm used to paying over here per person....and I'd be expected to supply my own tent and fuel!

 

And your French must be better than mine - I don't see anything on that page about non-campers not being welcome?

My findings as well Tim which is why I posted the bit about the time restraints. The thing is would we get away with stating those times here in the UK <_<

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new guidelines for camping events

 

This has just been published.

 

Thanks for everyone's input on this matter and to the people at Groundspeak and all the reviewers for their work to coming up with what looks like a very sensible easy to use solution to the situation.

 

Sorry if I "irritated" or worse anyone during this, I hope that the result does justify the means. I also hope that anyone that falls into that category will accept my handshake and we can all move on.

 

So once again thanks for all the hard work.

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This bit made me smile.

 

"If a cacher wants to pay the appropriate camping fees so that they are permitted on site, but they do not want to stay overnight, they can log the event as found."

 

That's like paying a hotel for a nights stay just to use their loo.

Would any right minded person actually do that?

All depends on how desperately you want that smiley :)

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This bit made me smile.

 

"If a cacher wants to pay the appropriate camping fees so that they are permitted on site, but they do not want to stay overnight, they can log the event as found."

 

That's like paying a hotel for a nights stay just to use their loo.

Would any right minded person actually do that?

All depends on how desperately you want that smiley :)

Or how desperately you needed the loo :blink:

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If non campers have to be included in the camping events, how come we are allowed to set Premium Member only caches? Just saying
The new guidelines say non-campers don't have to be included though. If you reread them, you'll see it's totally optional to have i) a campsite which lets non-campers visit and/or ii) have a loggable 'outside the campsite' element. It's fine to set an event at a 'pay to enter' location now, so long as that's a campsite, it seems <_<
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I am not posting to agree or disagree. I can see both points of view. I would however point out, that some people will always take the short cut in life and geocaching is no exception. If they choose to claim something they haven't worked for they will not feel the exhilaration and sense of achievement of those that have made the effort. This is not your problem, let it go, don't be the dog with the bone. You can't change that fact and it is a waste of your energy to try and stop these people crashing in at the last minute for 'the glory'. It's not that I don't care and I am sorry to see some of you so upset. Also, some people like to geocache in groups and others on their own. Just because it's not the same choice as yours does not mean it's the wrong one.

 

With regards to people's rights and how we should take everyone in to account. Below are some links that I think will help. People with disabilities cannot always be catered for. Every possible measure should be taken to include everybody but where it is not possible the law is not being broken. Common sense should prevail (although.......). This is not about camping/not camping (which is a different part of the debate) but about access to the events in question. If you know of someone wanting to meet with your group and you know they are devout Muslin then efforts should be made to include them. For example, not having every meeting at a pub.

 

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/uploaded_files/guidance_on_matters_to_be_taken_into_account_in_determining_questions_relating_to_the_definition_of_disability.pdf

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/DisabledPeople/Everydaylifeandaccess/Everydayaccess/DG_4018353

 

Anyhoooo - 'twas just an observation. I shall now bow out.

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