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L0ne.R

Quality Power Trails in Ontario

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The day was one of the better geocaching outings that I have had in the last six months or so. While I am disappointed to see there's at least one "1 of 57 for the day" log now posted on the established cache that was there before the Power Trail, this particular trail nailed it on one major aspect, that I don't get on a rail trail like the Caledon Trailway. It wasn't the social aspect so much. For most of the day I hiked the trail with one other person, and only encountered groups here and there, for a few minutes at a time.

I assume that was directed to me. My log on Bushwacker was as follows

Found at 8:52am.

Find #47 of 57 along these trail today.

This is exactly what I felt that cache deserved as there is absolutely nothing special about this one to make it stand out compared to the other ones. If this one deserves more of a log or a favourite point then the 2 caches past Bushwacker would deserve it even more. Bushwacker is a walk in the woods for a PB jar (with a hole in it) that hasn't received the maintenance it needed since it was first mentioned. It is not even a 5/5. If anything a 1/4…we saw it from 20m away as we were approaching. But rating are subjective as is quality. But there are people who are happy to have found that one, including the cachers I was with and I respect that.

 

But that's the nature of my problem with the power trail. It's not that you logged what you did. It's that a cache that formerly had great adventure stories associated with it now becomes nothing more than a footnote along the trail. The cache owner no longer receives great satisfaction reading the logs of the epic journeys into the cache, or whatever made it special. Instead they get canned copy/paste logs unless they put a watch on the other 56 caches in case the story is posted there.

 

I feel bad for the CO in that case who may feel their cache is "ruined" now.

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But that's the nature of my problem with the power trail. It's not that you logged what you did. It's that a cache that formerly had great adventure stories associated with it now becomes nothing more than a footnote along the trail. The cache owner no longer receives great satisfaction reading the logs of the epic journeys into the cache, or whatever made it special. Instead they get canned copy/paste logs unless they put a watch on the other 56 caches in case the story is posted there.

 

I feel bad for the CO in that case who may feel their cache is "ruined" now.

 

The cache is the same, whether the power trail is there or not. If the cache truly is that great it would still get the great logs. As geocaching grows and more caches get placed it is only natural that there will be less caches that are alone in a remote location. Now that the power trail is there, it is much more likely that people will go to find that cache and isn't that the point, for people to have their caches found? What's the point of placing a cache if people aren't going to find it. As I have said many time, I never had an interest in finding Bushwacker and now that the power trail is there, it gave me that push to finally get Bushwacker, with convincing from my fellow cachers. However my interest for going was more for doing the power trail and challenge of doing it all than it was to find Bushwacker which I just see as a long walk in the woods to a regular cache...I can find walk in the woods caches much closer to home without having to drive 300km and the added expense.

 

And for what it's worth, my log on Bushwacker is not a canned copy/paste log and it won't be. I haven't logged Team Goju's caches yet, but those logs will be different than what I posted on Bushwacker. I chose to post my detailed log of the entire experience on the event cache page.

 

The goal of the power trail was to get more people out to Bushwacker and I think it succeeded with great success. Just look how many people have been in there in January already.

Edited by res2100

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But that's the nature of my problem with the power trail. It's not that you logged what you did. It's that a cache that formerly had great adventure stories associated with it now becomes nothing more than a footnote along the trail. The cache owner no longer receives great satisfaction reading the logs of the epic journeys into the cache, or whatever made it special. Instead they get canned copy/paste logs unless they put a watch on the other 56 caches in case the story is posted there.

 

I feel bad for the CO in that case who may feel their cache is "ruined" now.

 

"Standards for using 'epic' are so low, even 'awesome' is embarrassed."

 

Yet you visited the caches and I assume you will claim your smiley. It is one thing to complain that a power trail reduces the greatness of a cache. It is another to claim that and then support the very caches that are the cause of the depreciation. Anyone that felt the trail diminished Bushwacker and still wanted to attend the event and enjoy the wonderful trail could have easily just ignored all the caches along the way.

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I made my point and you very well understand it. Yes I visited the caches and will log them. That does not change or conflict with my view that the owner of Bushwacker is most likely disappointed with the new logs he/she can expect from now on.

 

As for the caches become less remote over time, two points

 

1 - There is a difference between organic growth and power trail development

 

2 - Lingham is not going to be a crowded urban centre for a very long time. This particular power trail made it less remote far quicker than organic growth of geocaching would

 

I do not fault Goju. His goal was to drive more traffic to Bushwacker and he succeeded. But I read comments about how the cache no longer deserves a decent log and I feel bad for the CO. I also feel the standards for geocaching are reduced with that attitude and start feeling perhaps it is time to be done with log text altogether if that is how we want to cache now. Just get the +1 over with and on to the next one.

 

I am sure to be attacked for the above so I will remind others that is simply an opinion of mine and is not intended to be a statement of facts. You are free to feel otherwise and most likely do.

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Ralph, when the trip was being planned the lightness of this winter had not been established yet. Normally you should have expected 3 feet of snow on the trail, not 3 inches. We were all incredibly lucky to have the winter conditions that we experienced.

 

Planning is required for any winter backcountry trip be that 500 metres or 50 kilometres. Do something stupid and you're not coming out of there. That's the part that makes it dangerous.

Now, you proved it was possible to hike in and out in one day and you should be proud of your accomplishment. But some of the negative thinking was constructive and intended to assist in worst case planning.

 

Always hope for the best but plan for the worst. Double true in the back country.

 

The day was perfect weather wise. No one could have asked for better conditions. I think we can all agree on that.

 

The CC8 group was created to do the challenge of doing it all in one day. Some people lost sight of that and things turned negative pretty quickly and hypocritical too especially from one specific person (you and I can discuss it privately if you are curious who I am referring to). It was clear from speaking with others that the person didn't want us to do it. Some people were making suggestions on how to succeed (which was the purpose of the creating the group so we could plan it), while others were basically saying NO. Believe me, I am not the only one who thought things were moving towards the ridiculous.

 

As you know, I got tired of the crap and totally lost interest in going. Then I got many offers to still go, but I was hesitant until Goju called me up one day to convince me to go still and we started planning it privately for 4 of us (me, Goju, JeffTrex and MrPirateCat) to go the week before (Jan 14th). We were all ready to go, but as the day approached the forcast called for -18C at night with even colder windchill. I slept on it and then friday morning I emailed the others and backed out and the others did as well. That was the smartest decision we made. We were smart enough not to put ourselves in unnecessary danger. We then planned to go on event week on the 21st and that is what we did. We lost Jeff but gained micd and bggy to our group. It all a matter of knowing what I am capable of, and I knew without a doubt I could do it. I also had great confidence in the people I was with. Again if something like the forcast indicate that we may not have been able to do it, then we would have again picked another day. We also seriously contemplated crossing the ice/lake from the hunt camp to the event, as the people in the hunt camp said it was possible, but the yahoos that came later said no...so we decided to go on the side of caution. I will say it, I found a lot of what was being said pretty insulting in the CC8 group. I know some people can and those who can't. I would never tell anyone that they can't. I knew I could do it. I know you and Chrismouse could probably have done it and I thought when we bumped into you that you were going to do the whole thing, as you guys seemed full of energy.

 

In the end I am glad I did it and those who I did it with. There was never a sense of trouble while we were on the trail.

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1 - There is a difference between organic growth and power trail development

 

Time

 

2 - Lingham is not going to be a crowded urban centre for a very long time. This particular power trail made it less remote far quicker than organic growth of geocaching would

 

Again, time.

 

I do not fault Goju. His goal was to drive more traffic to Bushwacker and he succeeded. But I read comments about how the cache no longer deserves a decent log and I feel bad for the CO. I also feel the standards for geocaching are reduced with that attitude and start feeling perhaps it is time to be done with log text altogether if that is how we want to cache now. Just get the +1 over with and on to the next one.

 

Why should this cache get any different treatment form any other caches along a power trail. For any cacher who started after the power trail was put in place, bushwacker would just be another cache along the trail and for the most part nothing more. Any finders previous to the power trail is free to feel nostalgic about it but subsequent finders should not be expected to have that forced apon them. I don't think because some choose to write short logs does not diminish geocacing as a whole. If you feel tat means you need to start writing shorter logs because others are, then that is up to you. Kind of reminds me of the question about jumping off a cliff. Personally I would never disrespect anyone with a +1 in a log. I am quite sure when I do 50 caches or more and log them with 1/50, 2/50, ..., the log owners are not taking offense. If they are, they are free to let me know.

 

I am sure to be attacked for the above so I will remind others that is simply an opinion of mine and is not intended to be a statement of facts. You are free to feel otherwise and most likely do.

 

I am sorry you feel that a response to your post could be considered an attack. Could be others just have a different opinion. Not always personal.

Edited by Keith Watson

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I told myself that I wouldnt't contribute to these multi-page threads, but here I am. I mentioned the topic to Susan while we were hiking this past weekend and she smiled and gave her opinion, well stated as always.

 

The first time we saw a power trail pop up, we thought, wow, bet that stinks. We read the brief and vague logs and it almost convinced us that this was wrong. Some time afterwards, a power trail was laid out in Caledon and we were familiar with one of the cachers responsible, we had really enjoyed a number of his caches before, so we gave it a go. We like a long walk, but decided because it was a level rail line we should scrape the rust off our bikes. We cycled until we got tired, turned around and cached back. The terrain and views were pretty much the same from cache to cache, but the placements were different enough to make this enjoyable. Surprisingly, it didn't stink. And because we were now biking and caching, the game grew for us.

 

So now we have visited a handful of power trails, so we are experts! And as experts, we'll tell you what we think we think.

 

Some of just like finding a pantload of caches, some of us like a different experience with every cache. That's why there's chocolate and vanilla. Read the logs to see which trail is for you.

 

Some of us like a different log with every cache, that's what we try to do. Some of us write a detailed log on one cache to summarize, and copy and paste the rest. I don't think it's a reflection of the individual caches, just a personal preference. That's why there's pineapple and pepperoni. It is a struggle for us to remember the details from cache to cache on a power trail, no matter how unique, but we try.

 

Some of us see a power trail as something to conquer and complete, end to end. Some of us just want to visit. That's why there's Ginger and Maryanne, or Betty and Veronica. I am a Betty guy, but Archie really goes for Veronica, and who could argue with Archie. Just look at the car he drove. But I digress. Although we have visited a number of power trails, many cachers have done more caches in one day than we have done in our best month. And we think that's awesome.

 

Some of us walk, some of us bike, some of us paddle, some of snowshoe or ski or cache with an ATV. There are power trails for all of us to visit or ignore. But getting back to Susan's opinion, she has enjoyed them all because of the journey. Don't care about the cache so much, just enjoy the journey. That's why there's Paul and Susan, almost thirty years of disagreeing harmoniously. We should all disagree the same way. Well, without the kissing.

 

Final word: we went to Lingham also, beautiful. Perhaps no more beautiful than any other trail on a snowy January day, but the remoteness was very appealing. We had hopes of visiting before the power trail, just two old caches and a lake full of bass is appealing enough. We knew our limits and did not turn off the trail that led to the Lake. I thought Susan was going to have to carry me the last km. If I did Facebook, which I don't, Ralph, I'd have called you crazy if you planned to do the whole trail. But, crazy in a good way, knowing full well that if the conditions were right you could do it. You guys challenged yourselves and succeeded, hats off to you. You're not new to this, you've done similar, and you know your limits. And I figure that when each of you got home and put your feet up, there was a long-lasting smile. That's why (for us) there's this game. Big smile at the end, no matter what your definition of a smile is. And thanks, Team Goju, we're glad this was a power trail we visited.

 

Cheers,

Paul

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Here is an example of the "quality" of caches on the power trail in my area. Each one is similar, every 161 metres. This is pretty typical from what I have seen on this trail.

This one was soaking wet.

There is little creativity or imagination here. And you will note it is clearly placed on private property. Why would someone waste time and resources to make such a crappy trail? Although in fairness I have heard that some may be better than others, I have yet to see this.

 

I have done some really good caches, these certainly do not rate among them. Maybe this is the problem with playing the "numbers game" Numbers become more important and quality decreases dramatically. I am asking for better.

 

418513_10150623487475915_685960914_11493051_486727463_n.jpg

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Here is an example of the "quality" of caches on the power trail in my area. Each one is similar, every 161 metres. This is pretty typical from what I have seen on this trail.

This one was soaking wet.

There is little creativity or imagination here. And you will note it is clearly placed on private property. Why would someone waste time and resources to make such a crappy trail? Although in fairness I have heard that some may be better than others, I have yet to see this.

 

I have done some really good caches, these certainly do not rate among them. Maybe this is the problem with playing the "numbers game" Numbers become more important and quality decreases dramatically. I am asking for better.

 

418513_10150623487475915_685960914_11493051_486727463_n.jpg

 

Wow, that is just a bad cache and probably in violation of the guidelines. I'll give you some information you may not be aware of. Caches like this exist outside of power trails. You will probably find plenty of caches you don't like that are not in power trails. Don't think I have ever heard cache placers being part of the numbers game. I have ever to work derived why if you seem to hate power trails so much, why are you bothering to find them?

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Here is an example of the "quality" of caches on the power trail in my area. Each one is similar, every 161 metres. This is pretty typical from what I have seen on this trail.

This one was soaking wet.

There is little creativity or imagination here. And you will note it is clearly placed on private property. Why would someone waste time and resources to make such a crappy trail? Although in fairness I have heard that some may be better than others, I have yet to see this.

 

I have done some really good caches, these certainly do not rate among them. Maybe this is the problem with playing the "numbers game" Numbers become more important and quality decreases dramatically. I am asking for better.

 

418513_10150623487475915_685960914_11493051_486727463_n.jpg

 

Wow, that is just a bad cache and probably in violation of the guidelines. I'll give you some information you may not be aware of. Caches like this exist outside of power trails. You will probably find plenty of caches you don't like that are not in power trails. Don't think I have ever heard cache placers being part of the numbers game. I have ever to work derived why if you seem to hate power trails so much, why are you bothering to find them?

 

I thought I would give a few more a try to expand my knowledge base of this trail. Clearly I was disappointed. Don't think I will be doing anymore on this trail.

And yes, I know there are over 400 on this trail and I have done but a few- but I don't see much here that would make me want to continue.

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Not a huge secret how we feel about power trails and yes we tend to agree with northernpenguin *GASP* that the Lingaham power trail has made it less remote and that its a shame that Bushwacker no longer deserves a decent log. With that being said it took us a while but we've learned that what we like isn't for everybody and I think Paul n Susan sum it up nicely with this statement.

 

Some of just like finding a pantload of caches, some of us like a different experience with every cache. That's why there's chocolate and vanilla. Read the logs to see which trail is for you.

 

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I am asking for better.

 

We are "looking" for better, but we're not "asking" for anything, what right do we have? I mean, a member placed this cache, so a member must have seen some value in it, maybe someone else will also. Doesn't look like our cup o'tea, in fact looks like we would feel as you do, but who are we? Having said that, we have encountered caches that 100% of members (minus one, the CO) would hate, two of them within 600 m of our front door.

 

It is impossible to compile a list of "Quality" power trails because there are many definitions of "quality". To do 100+ caches in one day is a quality day for many - and quite a challenge - so a cache like this may be valuable to some. What's wrong with that? And Lingham Lake is not quality if you hate long walks, and a canoe power trail is useless if you don't canoe. That's why there's an ignore list, and self-control and research of course ... not every cache has to be sought and found (although it's aggravating to have what we think are sub-par caches in our neighbourhood, so I am on your side there, grrr ... ) My idea of a quality day doesn't include this one, so based on my planning we probably wouldn't do it. And powering through this series would be a little much for us, as our van turns into a pumpkin after 25 or so caches.

 

So the picture doesn't scare me away from power trails in general, but it really emphasizes that researching and planning your Geocaching day is important so that you can maximize your enjoyment. Keith's right, there are plenty of caches like this one that are not on power trails, we know where they are because someone told us in their logs, and we checked out the area using the satellite and topo maps. Many power trails don't include hides like this.

 

And, there are quality days where power trails aren't necessary, those days where only looking for 1 or 2 caches put a smile on our face as well as on our profile.

 

The close caches I mentioned before? The two within 600 m of our front door? Both were DNF's, garbage, hypodermic needles, miserable areas; we spent 15 minutes on each then went home and ignored 'em. Didn't bother us at all. Plan ahead and enjoy your weekend whether you power or plod along.

 

Paul

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Sadly this speaks for itself. Another from the London Loop series. (It was concealed on the bottom of the junction box)

 

photo-4.jpg

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I thought I would give a few more a try to expand my knowledge base of this trail. Clearly I was disappointed. Don't think I will be doing anymore on this trail.

And yes, I know there are over 400 on this trail and I have done but a few- but I don't see much here that would make me want to continue.

 

Sadly this speaks for itself. Another from the London Loop series. (It was concealed on the bottom of the junction box)

 

photo-4.jpg

 

There are many caches out there that many folks do not like for many different reasons. Most cachers will eventually choose to filter those caches out and instead choose something that fits their caching dogma.

 

There are very few caches out there that very few cachers complain about and yet still go visit expecting a different result. That seems sorta silly to me.

 

It is duly noted that you do not seem to enjoy this series. I'd suggest choosing something else to save yourself the aggravation and also to ensure you have a reasonably fun time while enjoying this game.

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I agree with Dr. House. Complaining about caches you don't like will not get rid of them unless, of course, they violate the guidelines (in which case post a Needs Archived log and prepare for the feedback you may get)

 

Geocaching is diverse. You will find what you look for, be that caches you would hate or caches you would love.

 

Use the filtering tools to locate caches that seem like ones you would enjoy and seek those caches.

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Complaining about caches you don't like will not get rid of them unless, of course, they violate the guidelines (in which case post a Needs Archived log and prepare for the feedback you may get)

Option Two: Send a private email to the reviewer concerning guideline violations and perhaps avoid some of the drama.

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Complaining about caches you don't like will not get rid of them unless, of course, they violate the guidelines (in which case post a Needs Archived log and prepare for the feedback you may get)

Option Two: Send a private email to the reviewer concerning guideline violations and perhaps avoid some of the drama.

 

Around here the reviewer will request the NA log anyway so there is a proper "paper trail". If it is a minor infraction I typically ignore it these days. Something serious (like trespassing) I post the NA to warn others about it.

 

But yes, an email to the CO or Reviewer can reduce the drama for sure

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Complaining about caches you don't like will not get rid of them unless, of course, they violate the guidelines (in which case post a Needs Archived log and prepare for the feedback you may get)

Option Two: Send a private email to the reviewer concerning guideline violations and perhaps avoid some of the drama.

Around here the reviewer will request the NA log anyway so there is a proper "paper trail".

Option Three: If the reviewer will not act upon an email request, then you can contact Groundspeak directly.

 

Option Four: You can create a "sockpuppet" account and use that to post a NA log.

 

In any case, there are ways to anonymously report problems if you so desire.

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If I truly believe a NA log is warranted, I have no problems identifying that it is me making the request. Half the drama out there is because of actions on anonymous requests being perceived as some sort of crackdown by the reviewers.

 

In other words, if you are not willing to stand behind your statement, perhaps it is better to not say it.

 

This is taking the thread off topic so if you would like to discuss this further please PM me or start a new thread

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To get this thread back on topic, I went out for 3 hrs today finding this 12 cache power trail called Esquesing me. It's in the Milton area and the first one of the series is http://coord.info/GC3BCNF. I think this fits the original posters request perfectly. 11 of the 12 are large enough to hold trade items, most of which are filled with the usual dollar store trade items along with some interesting things too. There is 1 nano and the rest range from small, regular and even 2 fairly large containers. Most are a variety of lock and lock containers. It's about 5km round trip and goes along side quarry land. The first 6 caches are along a closed road and the next 6 are along a former section (20 years ago) of the Bruce Trail. 11 of the 12 caches are very easy finds too. Not much scenery though as there is forest/fields on the one side (which you can no longer explore) and quarry on the other, but we really enjoyed it today.

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To get this thread back on topic, I went out for 3 hrs today finding this 12 cache power trail called Esquesing me. It's in the Milton area and the first one of the series is http://coord.info/GC3BCNF. I think this fits the original posters request perfectly. 11 of the 12 are large enough to hold trade items, most of which are filled with the usual dollar store trade items along with some interesting things too. There is 1 nano and the rest range from small, regular and even 2 fairly large containers. Most are a variety of lock and lock containers. It's about 5km round trip and goes along side quarry land. The first 6 caches are along a closed road and the next 6 are along a former section (20 years ago) of the Bruce Trail. 11 of the 12 caches are very easy finds too. Not much scenery though as there is forest/fields on the one side (which you can no longer explore) and quarry on the other, but we really enjoyed it today.

 

I was also going to suggest this trail but Res beat me to it. Neat location that I had no idea was accessible to pedestrians.

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