Since when did the Isle of Man leave the UK?

[+SidAndBob]

I can't find anything about this in the forums. Seems an odd move. Is it permanent?

It would be good if the newsletter told us useful things like this.

[+papaj83]

I believe it is it's own country.... This has kinda cropped up before with Northern Ireland.... (I wont go in to the reasons as it has been a thoroughly discussed topic - a quick search on NI will find some threads related to this)

 

HTH!!

 

(EDIT: for my fat fingers)

Edited January 12, 2012 by papaj83

[dodgydaved]

I can't find anything about this in the forums. Seems an odd move. Is it permanent?

It would be good if the newsletter told us useful things like this.

 

 

Actually - as I understand it - the IOM has never been part of the UK.

 

After a history of to-ing and fro-ing between (I think) Norway and Scotland) the Island became a "property" of the Crown of England in the 14th century or thereabouts. However it never became a full part of tGreat Britain or the UK.

 

It remains a self-governing dependancy - with its own, very old established, Parliament - The Tynwald.

 

If I am incorrect here I am sure Happy Humphrey (or someone else from the island will put me right :lol:

[+SidAndBob]

I can't find anything about this in the forums. Seems an odd move. Is it permanent?

It would be good if the newsletter told us useful things like this.

 

 

Actually - as I understand it - the IOM has never been part of the UK.

 

After a history of to-ing and fro-ing between (I think) Norway and Scotland) the Island became a "property" of the Crown of England in the 14th century or thereabouts. However it never became a full part of tGreat Britain or the UK.

 

It remains a self-governing dependancy - with its own, very old established, Parliament - The Tynwald.

 

If I am incorrect here I am sure Happy Humphrey (or someone else from the island will put me right :lol:

I'm sure you're right in a political sense, though I was really referring to it in a Geocaching sense. It was in the UK until very recently. It's now classified as a country of it's own. Kinda messes with my (and no doubt many other's) PQs.

 

[Staldantes]

Does this mean your beautifully named topic is in the wrong forum entirely? I had never thought about it before, even after cycling around the TT course in my youth (loved the, what seemed like, 4 miles without pedaling ; after the climb of course). Forums are all about Devil's advocate, but I'd have said UK before dodgydaved's post, now I feel quite well informed this morning.

 

We shouldn't grumble, it is only a game, but at least Isle of Man is not lumbered into another countries droopy drawers . Now I have to wiki the three legs thing again, as I just can't remember the story. Keep it up SidandBob.

[Staldantes]

I was wrong in my previous post, if Northern Ireland is in the Ireland box (instead of UK) then so should the Isle of Man as it was historically part of Northern Ireland, but was thrown out to sea. If Finn had worked out a little better then the IOM would be in the UK as part of a mountain range in Scotland. Now we have Giants to blame for that one.

[+SidAndBob]

Does this mean your beautifully named topic is in the wrong forum entirely? ...

Very good. Mods, please move this to the IOM forum.

 

Has it changed recently, or has it been categorised on GC.com as it's own country for a while?

It doesn't bother me either way, I'm just trying to figure out how I got these caches in GSAK in the first place as I only import UK caches.

[Alan White]

Actually - as I understand it - the IOM has never been part of the UK.

I'm sure you're right in a political sense, though I was really referring to it in a Geocaching sense. It was in the UK until very recently. It's now classified as a country of it's own. Kinda messes with my (and no doubt many other's) PQs.

Dave is quite right: Isle of Man has never been part of the United Kingdom.

 

In a geocaching sense (by which I assume you mean Groundspeak sense), IOM has been a separate country for at least as long as I've been creating PQs: 2004 or earlier. It certainly hasn't "moved" recently.

[Alan White]

I'm just trying to figure out how I got these caches in GSAK in the first place as I only import UK caches.

Sometimes caches are listed in the wrong country by the cache owner and this isn't noticed by the reviewer. Sometimes the error is noticed - often years later - and corrected.

 

I too only collect caches listed in the UK and find later that they're not being updated. When I check the cache is really in another "country": most commonly Northern Ireland .

[dodgydaved]

 

In a geocaching sense (by which I assume you mean Groundspeak sense), IOM has been a separate country for at least as long as I've been creating PQs: 2004 or earlier. It certainly hasn't "moved" recently.

 

....and I, personally, can certainly vouch for this between about 2003 and 2008 :rolleyes:

[+SidAndBob]

In a geocaching sense (by which I assume you mean Groundspeak sense), IOM has been a separate country for at least as long as I've been creating PQs: 2004 or earlier. It certainly hasn't "moved" recently.

Thanks. That's what I wanted to know. I didn't realize it was classified separately. I must go caching there one day.

 

I'm just trying to figure out how I got these caches in GSAK in the first place as I only import UK caches.

Sometimes caches are listed in the wrong country by the cache owner and this isn't noticed by the reviewer. Sometimes the error is noticed - often years later - and corrected.

 

I too only collect caches listed in the UK and find later that they're not being updated. When I check the cache is really in another "country": most commonly Northern Ireland .

 

I think you're right and this is one factor. Maybe playing with the Geocaching Live API is another factor. I'm still missing something but it does seem to come down to something I've done. At least I've learned some geographic history. Thanks all.

[+Happy Humphrey]

It's been separate since I've been caching (2004). At that time there were only a dozen or so caches there (I've lost count now, but there are several hundred). IIRC the IOM was originally included with another country (probably the UK) but Groundspeak were asked to separate them out, and agreed. As the ferry journey is at least 65 miles it wouldn't make much sense to include the caches in the UK or Ireland.

And the others are quite correct in that it's never been in the UK politically or geographically. It's not in the EU either although the government there does implement EU legislation where relevant and a Manx passport is an EU one.

[Beefy4605]

Maybe this is the "real" the 2 reviewers left ?

(I know its not - I jest )

How do the population of the Isle of Man feel about this ?

Have the Manx cats been asked as well?

Can we find someone from the Southern hemisphere to take this case up on their behalf - after all they would have a much better idea about it than the people who actually live there .

[+keehotee]

I'm just trying to figure out how I got these caches in GSAK in the first place as I only import UK caches.

Sometimes caches are listed in the wrong country by the cache owner and this isn't noticed by the reviewer. Sometimes the error is noticed - often years later - and corrected.

 

 

Countries are political entities - not geographical.

 

This and the Northern Ireland issue would all be solved by wrapping the whole lot up and calling it by it's correct geographical name.... The British Isles

[Beefy4605]

I'm just trying to figure out how I got these caches in GSAK in the first place as I only import UK caches.

Sometimes caches are listed in the wrong country by the cache owner and this isn't noticed by the reviewer. Sometimes the error is noticed - often years later - and corrected.

 

 

Countries are political entities - not geographical.

 

This and the Northern Ireland issue would all be solved by wrapping the whole lot up and calling it by it's correct geographical name.... The British Isles

 

Sorry - it won't . You will then alienate all those who live in the Republic of Ireland who have no wish or desire to be classed as British.

[Alan White]

This and the Northern Ireland issue would all be solved by wrapping the whole lot up and calling it by it's correct geographical name.... The British Isles

 

Sorry - it won't . You will then alienate all those who live in the Republic of Ireland who have no wish or desire to be classed as British.

Not only that (which also applies to this Englishman), but using The British Isles would mean that Groundspeak would then be using country names for everything but United Kingdom, Ireland, Isle of Man and possibly Channel Islands. Surely that would be even more confusing, as well as making it more difficult to isolate areas in PQs?

[+keehotee]

This and the Northern Ireland issue would all be solved by wrapping the whole lot up and calling it by it's correct geographical name.... The British Isles

 

Sorry - it won't . You will then alienate all those who live in the Republic of Ireland who have no wish or desire to be classed as British.

Not only that (which also applies to this Englishman), but using The British Isles would mean that Groundspeak would then be using country names for everything but United Kingdom, Ireland, Isle of Man and possibly Channel Islands. Surely that would be even more confusing, as well as making it more difficult to isolate areas in PQs?

 

FWIW, I agree. It should either be strictly geographical - or strictly political. But I can't for one instant see the Canadians wanting to be lumped in with their southern North American neighbours, any more than them Yooropeeans would want to all be tarred with same brush......

Talking of which - do the Walloons and Flemish Belgians have the same issues? How about the Catalans and Basque Spanish/French?

[Alan White]

It should either be strictly geographical - or strictly political. But I can't for one instant see the Canadians wanting to be lumped in with their southern North American neighbours

Quite. But that aside, I can't see geographical areas being easy to describe, easy to understand, or at all useful. I can understand - and support - the desire to keep politics out of geocaching but, as you said earlier, countries are political entities. They're also familiar, easy to understand and, with a few notable exceptions, internationally agreed and recognised. And the field - at least on the PQ page - is called "countries". That's why IOM - to return to the topic - is listed as a separate country: because it is. It may not be a UN member state because the UK handles its foreign affairs but, as HH says, in every other respect it's a country.

 

Talking of which - do the Walloons and Flemish Belgians have the same issues? How about the Catalans and Basque Spanish/French?

It's an interesting question to which I regret not knowing the answer. Staldantes, in the other thread, should be able to help with Catalonia.

[+Gushoneybun]

In a geocaching sense (by which I assume you mean Groundspeak sense), IOM has been a separate country for at least as long as I've been creating PQs: 2004 or earlier. It certainly hasn't "moved" recently.

 

....and I, personally, can certainly vouch for this between about 2003 and 2008 :rolleyes:

 

I found my first cache on the Isle back in September 2007 and it was not part of the UK then in a geocaching sense. The Isle has a fascinating history I love going over (for work so its free for me )

[Staldantes]

It has to be said Catalonia has a strong underbelly of politics which takes a while to understand, and what makes this even further compounded is the use of Catalan. I am relatively new to Geocaching, and started here, with all local caches being in Catalan and English (the latter to make it universal I guess). Some are in Spanish, its a complicated thing to explain, but the more you move away from the centre of the province the more spanish re-emerges. I don't think anybody dwells on the issue, but it is there. I can't speak for the non-catalans, as most of my exposure has been to the Catalan customs, which is very much oriented towards the outdoor lifestyle with plenty of mountains and open forests (pretty ideal for Geocaching and I love it), and mushroom picking in the autumn.

 

The people that refer to themselves as Catalans at heart would like independence from Spain but I think they realise that this probably will never happen, so there is never an outlash against their shackles. It is just accepted by all at least at the moment. The crisis is hitting hard though, and the Catalans feel hard done by, so the trickle is beginning to swell, who knows what will happen. The Isle of Man in my eyes has the best of everything, and the tranquility to match so getting your own country in Groundspeak sounds like a little blessing . I up to now prefer Geocaching with a print-out as I can hand it to the kids whilst I'm driving there, not turning on the GPS until we are within walking range, so for me PQs are an unknown element that I may never get into.

 

So basically the there are no geographical boundary issues in Catalonia, but a language divide which I suppose is a sort of resistance to being 'lumped' into the rest of the peninsular.

[Alan White]

Maybe playing with the Geocaching Live API is another factor.

Yes, that could be it. Unlike PQs, the API has no means of selecting caches other than by coordinates. Whereas one might choose to restrict caches in a PQ by selecting the country, that's not possible in the API. So an API circle or rectangle in Lancashire, Galloway or Northern Ireland could easily return caches in the Isle of Man, and vice versa.

[+SidAndBob]

Maybe playing with the Geocaching Live API is another factor.

Yes, that could be it. Unlike PQs, the API has no means of selecting caches other than by coordinates. Whereas one might choose to restrict caches in a PQ by selecting the country, that's not possible in the API. So an API circle or rectangle in Lancashire, Galloway or Northern Ireland could easily return caches in the Isle of Man, and vice versa.

Sounds very sensible... if only I'd ever run Get Geocaches for anywhere near that area.

[Alan White]

Sounds very sensible... if only I'd ever run Get Geocaches for anywhere near that area.

In that case, the only other explanation I can offer is that there is or was a bug in the API. I know that during beta testing of GSAK v8 many problems were reported of caches being returned which shouldn't have been.

 

And the opposite: caches not being returned when they should be. I myself discovered and reported that if a bounding box is on or crosses the prime meridian no caches will be returned. As far as I know that bug remains unresolved.

 

But we digress...

[+SidAndBob]

Sounds very sensible... if only I'd ever run Get Geocaches for anywhere near that area.

In that case, the only other explanation I can offer is that there is or was a bug in the API. I know that during beta testing of GSAK v8 many problems were reported of caches being returned which shouldn't have been...

That thought had occurred to me. Thanks for your suggestions.

[+Cushag]

I stand up and confess. When I joined Geocaching.com I was finding it difficult to 'find' our Isle of Man Caches and , already pointed out, we are a country in our own right, I emailed the powers at geocaching.com and within days they had put the record straight.

All said so far is correct, we are not part of the UK, not a fully paid member of the EU, not part of Great Britain but only part of the British Isles for geographical purposes. We have our own NHS, Social Welfare, Police force, Parliment and laws. Even a British person has to have a work permit (comes with the Job) for 5 years before they can become a Bone Fide Manx worker. You are CRB'd for all work permits too! Jobs have to be offered to Manx unemployed before a work permit is issued for off island applicants. Also very few Social benefits can be claimed until you have lived and worked on the island for 10 years, and that includes social housing. If you want to check out all the anomalies go to www.gov.im

When the island had only 24 caches 'Seasider' came over and with Cushag and Nibbo's help did all 24 in 24 hours. Quite a record then in those days! Shows you how far geocaching has come in the last 8 years!

The island has nearly 500 caches and I am still plodding along trying to find them.

 

Hope this puts some of you out of your confusion.

[Alan White]

You are CRB'd for all work permits too!

Do you think that my great(x3) grandfather having been the chief constable* of Castletown and killed in the Brig Lily disaster in 1852 would help?

 

* This isn't as grand as it sounds. What was then called chief constable was simply the most senior constable. Perhaps equivalent to sergeant today.

[+MBFace]

Maybe playing with the Geocaching Live API is another factor.

Yes, that could be it. Unlike PQs, the API has no means of selecting caches other than by coordinates. Whereas one might choose to restrict caches in a PQ by selecting the country, that's not possible in the API. So an API circle or rectangle in Lancashire, Galloway or Northern Ireland could easily return caches in the Isle of Man, and vice versa.

Not forgetting Cumbria - our nearest unfound cache on the IOM is under 36 miles away, well within our nearest 1000 unfound radius for the UK which currently sits just over 47 miles.

[Alan White]

Not forgetting Cumbria

I sincerely apologise for omitting Cumbria.

 

Mind you, I've never quite got used to Cumbria: it's still (mostly) Cumberland and Westmorland to me .