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Since when did Northern Ireland leave the UK?


Staldantes

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and when/if you do - do not expect as pleasant and dignified replies as you have received here -if you actually get any .We are a separate forum from Groundspeak and are not bound by the same rules as here - just so you understand that before you join up .

You have been given the links to the Knowledge base article regarding this , a link to a previous discussion in this forum and have heard the views of cachers based on both sides of the border in Ireland . If you need it made clearer than that - join up we will enlighten you .

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Can I suggest that you take this matter up with the cachers in the Geocaching Ireland forum? If a strong feeling of dissatisfaction is developing among the Irish caching community then (maybe) Groundspeak will reconsider the situation.

 

MrsB :)

I get the feeling that the Irish cachers are quite happy with the arrangement: didn't they instigate it? But geocaching is a global sport and other cachers need to understand how Groundspeak is describing countries*. I know that if I were visiting Northern Ireland I'd want to produce a PQ for it: something which isn't possible under the present arrangement.

 

* I'd love to know if there are any other similar oddities where Groundspeak has decided not to use the internationally-agreed and recognised borders of a country.

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I know that if I were visiting Northern Ireland I'd want to produce a PQ for it: something which isn't possible under the present arrangement.

 

 

You can . Create a PQ and use Ireland as the country , use Ulster as the county . Take this pq and drop it into GSAK - run the county macro and then take out all caches that are not in the 6 counties of Northern Ireland - sorted . If you need any more help with it I'd be happy to help sorting you out with the right macros - full process etc .

edit - you will need at least 2 1000 cache PQ's to cover Northern Ireland .

Edited by Beefy4605
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You can . Create a PQ and use Ireland as the country , use Ulster as the county . Take this pq and drop it into GSAK - run the county macro and then take out all caches that are not in the 6 counties of Northern Ireland - sorted . If you need any more help with it I'd be happy to help sorting you out with the right macros - full process etc .

That's what I would do*, and perfectly demonstrates my point that it's not possible to get a PQ containing caches for Northern Ireland only <_<.

 

* Or something like it - I've found GSAK's county polygons for England, Scotland & Wales to be - how can I put this - less than accurate which is why I use my own.

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I was going to make a post in this thread with the intention of trying to assist a relatively new cacher understand why the decision was made but having read it again and seeing the amount of knowledge of events leading up to and during the decision and the use of personal names I'm now of the conclusion that this is not a new cacher, is probably someone better known hiding behind an alternative identity and is simply a trolling exercise.

 

I've better things to do than waste my time arguing with a troll :(

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Hi Dino-irl, I am a relatively new geocacher, and your presumption of course doesn't help, and that goes for your comments here. What happens is that I can read, and it doesn't take much to get a grip of the discussion, although The Bolonges link to an old thread helped me uncover other threads. A troll indeed, what is that exactly in your mind, I am still reading about what PQs are. A reviewer is there to help, not make matters worse :blink: .

 

Thanks for complmenting my knowledge though, there is always a silver lining :P .

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Stumbled upon this thread and waded my way through. I've, honestly, nothing constructive to add save for the fact that this thread reminded me of something I saw once on

.

 

Though I'm sure there may be errors in the presentation, hopefully it provides a chuckle for those who've not seen the vid previously.

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Stumbled upon this thread and waded my way through. I've, honestly, nothing constructive to add save for the fact that this thread reminded me of something I saw once on

.

 

Though I'm sure there may be errors in the presentation, hopefully it provides a chuckle for those who've not seen the vid previously.

 

Thanks for the video, I was a bit apprehensive but it is very clear and well presented, I think. :)

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Just throwing my two cents into the ring...

 

Using the term 'GB' misses out all the smaller islands, so it doesn't work.

To me, Great Britain does mean all the islands except, of course, IOM & CI. So I have to ask: which islands aren't in GB?

 

All of them, apart from the big one!

 

It is a common mistake, but I fear you're confusing the "British Isles" - "a group of islands off the northwest coast of continental Europe that include the islands of Great Britain and Ireland and over six thousand smaller isles" with "Great Britain" - "the largest island in the British Isles"

 

In designating the island of Ireland as one geographical geocaching region IMVHO Groundspeak have it spot on, and I would like to think that the majority of ROI/NI cachers would agree.

 

And again, IMVHO, visitors to the island of Ireland who wish to cancel out all the NI caches in a PQ, or vice versa, will be missing out on many, many excellent caches.

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In designating the island of Ireland as one geographical geocaching region IMVHO Groundspeak have it spot on, and I would like to think that the majority of ROI/NI cachers would agree.

 

I would agree with this wholeheartedly and know for a fact many other Irish cachers do as well.

 

And again, IMVHO, visitors to the island of Ireland who wish to cancel out all the NI caches in a PQ, or vice versa, will be missing out on many, many excellent caches.

 

They will - I only showed Alan HOW to do it - not that he SHOULD . The techies over at GSAK could I'm sure write a macro that would automate the whole process but you have to wonder why nobody from the Irish caching community has asked for it before now . Check my profile - scroll down - big map - all counties listed England , Scotland , Wales, Northern Ireland , Southern Ireland and the Isle of Man - wheres the problem ? The tools exist to solve this so called problem - all people have to do is find them and use them .

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I think my question got lost in all the to and fro. From what Beefy4605 says there is a strong feeling among Irish cachers that it's better to have all the caches in the North listed under Ireland. I wondered what the advantage is of listing them this way?

 

For me as an infrequent visitor to Belfast I can run a PQ which will list all caches that I can get to while I'm on the island, including the ROI if I want a trip South, it won't confuse matters by including SW Scotland or IOM. I guess the same goes for cachers in the ROI/NI.

 

 

I don't use GSAK so don't anyone waste electrons by coming on here and telling me I could use a macro.......

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I think my question got lost in all the to and fro. From what Beefy4605 says there is a strong feeling among Irish cachers that it's better to have all the caches in the North listed under Ireland. I wondered what the advantage is of listing them this way?

Most of my caching is done on the Island of Ireland . If you split it into 2 areas North and South ( Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland )I need to run probably 6-7 1000 cache PQ's to cover the island - second user name territory.

At the moment I can run 5 1000 cache PQ's and return every cache on the Island of Ireland ( in about 500 caches time -I'm in trouble as it will be more than 5000 caches .)

FTF hunting - I can and have slipped over the border into Southern Ireland and claimed a FTF - if it set up differently I may/ could have missed it . I'm sure many mainland UK cachers would not think twice about 40 miles for a FTF .

 

Shape of the North /South border - without the full set of caches along the border you would be missing a lot of caches . Open up the maps and "draw an imaginary line between Warrenpoint in the east and Sligo in the west and see how many times you would cross the border . If you had only caches in the North or the South you would be driving past a lot of caches .

 

Simply - it's easier , it works . Most of us here don't travel to the UK mainland on a regular basis so most of the caching is done on the Island of Ireland . Why restrict yourself to one part of the island?

 

It probably is lost on those who don't live here - we are a quirky bunch - we have done very stupid things to each other in the past - we may do it again in the future - hopefully not - we have weird and wonderful ideas and to "outsiders " this is probably one such idea but for us it works . We asked for it Groundspeak listened and gave us what we wanted - there was no mass exodus of disgruntled cachers.

 

Geocaching is the only site here with any sort of numbers - Opencaching ,Terracaching and whatever other sites are available worldwide just don't have the numbers here - I'd guess 10 -20 caches will cover them. We have 2 good ,approachable , dedicated reviewers to keep us in line :blink: (most of the time :lol: ) .

 

You would have to agree that if a large number of people were so against this then the other sites should have more caches listed on them as people deflected to them .

 

I'm rambling :P - my apologies

 

SIMPLY - IT WORKS

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It is a common mistake, but I fear you're confusing the "British Isles" - "a group of islands off the northwest coast of continental Europe that include the islands of Great Britain and Ireland and over six thousand smaller isles" with "Great Britain" - "the largest island in the British Isles"

It's very easy to say to someone "you're mistaken" but personally I prefer some more concrete evidence than that :P.

 

I can find lots of references to agree with your statement that "Great Britain" refers to the big island, but then "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" clearly includes all the islands (in UK). I'd like to think that there's an official, legal definition of the meaning of the terms but I'm struggling to find it.

 

I think the best that can be said is that "Great Britain" - and indeed any term including or implying British-ness - is at best ambiguous and is therefore unlikely to be a part of the solution to the problem under discussion.

 

Which leaves just the two options as previously discussed:


  •  
  • a single "country" of United Kingdom and Ireland
  • separate countries of Ireland, Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland & England

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Most of my caching is done on the Island of Ireland . If you split it into 2 areas North and South ( Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland )I need to run probably 6-7 1000 cache PQ's to cover the island - second user name territory.

At the moment I can run 5 1000 cache PQ's and return every cache on the Island of Ireland ( in about 500 caches time -I'm in trouble as it will be more than 5000 caches .)

Aside from the suggestion I offered earlier about using a radius, you do know you can select more than one country in a PQ? If Groundspeak listed countries of Ireland and Northern Ireland then your PQ could select both and you'd have all the caches on the island.

 

This is why I suggested the option much earlier in the thread (and have done so previously) that Groundspeak should list Ireland, Northern Ireland, England, Scotland & Wales as separate countries. It's much more flexible, easily understood both locally and internationally, and avoids any suggestion of politics.

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It is a common mistake, but I fear you're confusing the "British Isles" - "a group of islands off the northwest coast of continental Europe that include the islands of Great Britain and Ireland and over six thousand smaller isles" with "Great Britain" - "the largest island in the British Isles"

It's very easy to say to someone "you're mistaken" but personally I prefer some more concrete evidence than that :P.

 

These any help to you?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain

 

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/Great+Britain

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminology_of_the_British_Isles

 

http://www.know-britain.com/general/great_britain.html

 

Either way, and whatever spin folks want to put on it for whatever agenda they have, the name of the island that contains Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is Ireland. And as stated before, I think Groudspeak have it absolutely spot on.

 

FWIW I'm a Brit, living in the Republic. Personally I think that if the majority of resident NI and RoI cachers are happy with the designation of the island of Ireland as a geocaching region (which is certainly my understanding), than really, that is pretty much all that matters. Visiting geocachers really should just enjoy the many varied caches the whole island offers to them, without troubling themselves over whatever border issues *they* may have with how we geocache on our island**!

 

** OK I know I'm a blow-in to the RoI, but you get the gist of my feelings I'm sure!

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This topic I know flares the nostrils of some, and of course JRM-IRL you have a point, and to be honest I have no problem having NI in the Ireland box, as long as there is some reference in the menu options to state that part of Ulster is in the UK too; and very easy to implement.

 

Many have tried to quosh this discussion by categorically stating that everyone is happy with the decision that was made and that no-one gets offended by this; thing is this is one person's point-of-view and in fact holds no water dispite being what we all want to achieve. For example Beefy on this thread states that everyone is happy as it is, and being included in an all-ireland menu works and excludes no-one in NI; however he goes on in the Isle of Man thread (#15) after it is suggested to use the British Isles to include UK and Ireland:

 

Sorry - it won't . You will then alienate all those who live in the Republic of Ireland who have no wish or desire to be classed as British.

 

Can the readers of this topic not see that taken from the other 'side' that some people are alienated because they do not want to be classed Irish and not Northern Irish/British. Its not as clear and concise as some of the posts would make you want to believe. I know this will not bare any fruit especially considering that some of the more prominent members have their backs up to any change of the status quo. Which is a real shame. :blink:

Edited by Staldantes
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There comes a point in most discussions, especially internet ones, where it becomes obvious that minds will not be changed, where opinions are firmly entrenched and where nothing of value is to be gained from further waffle.

 

It's at that point that many people's interest drops to close to zero and boredom sets in. It's also at that point that one gecomes even more grateful for the Greasemonkey "Ignore Topic" script. :anibad:

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Can the readers of this topic not see that taken from the other 'side' that some people are alienated because they do not want to be classed Irish and not Northern Irish/British.

 

I can't see it, no. I live in Devon and couldn't care less what my (or your) areas are called on Geocaching.com. If it offends you that you get "classed" as something you don't want to be, try ignoring all the names of things and just use co-ordinates. I've got no PQ selections based on region or country for that matter and get by absolutely fine. Try it?

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It does look like Groundspeak was bullied into this decision. It also kind of shows why we ended up with stupid names like 'Great Britain' and 'United Kingdom'...We are a stubborn, determined combination of peoples, the whole lot of us, and have been for a very long time. :rolleyes:

 

It doesn't change that NI is a part of the UK, and that Groundspeak seem to have mislaid it. It's a bit like when Jeremy Clarkson chopped off Wales.

 

It is not as simple as where you live, plenty of people make the commute between Ireland and Scotland/Wales/England for work, and to see friends & family on a frequent basis. A small group of geocachers who want their own way are not representative, no matter how intimidating.

 

Ulster isn't in the UK.

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I'm sure my request was perfectly clear: I'm seeking the official, legal definition of the meaning of the terms, not simply what someone with a website has decided to place online. I have my own website: if I place on it a statement that black is white I hope you wouldn't use it as a source to support such an argument :lol:.

 

I had already looked at all but one of those sites and the one I hadn't supports the view that Great Britain is England, Scotland & Wales and therefore includes all the islands which make up those countries.

 

Also, I doubt that the residents of the Isles of Wight, Anglesey and Skye, to name just a few, are precluded from membership of the Geocaching Association of Great Britain, the Radio Society of Great Britain, Team GB, or the august Royal Institution of Great Britain, to also name just a few.

 

I suggest it's evident that far from my understanding being a "common mistake" it is, at the very least, common usage that "Great Britain" refers to the countries of England, Scotland & Wales and all the islands which make up those countries.

 

Nevertheless, I think we agree that for the purposes of resolving the United Kingdom and Ireland question the term Great Britain is unhelpful, so let's move on.

 

the name of the island that contains Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is Ireland.

I agree entirely, but Groundspeak calls Ireland a country and the country of Ireland does not include Northern Ireland. If the field were labelled "Geographical area" and contained entries such as Malay Peninsula, Western Plateau and Tidewater Virginia* we would not be having this discussion.

 

I think that if the majority of resident NI and RoI cachers are happy with the designation of the island of Ireland as a geocaching region

It's not designated as a geocaching region but as a country, however, yes of course the view of the Irish cachers is important but the views and understanding of cachers everywhere else is also important. Most important is commonality of understanding: anyone who doesn't know about the strange divisions in use on the island will have great difficulty in finding (in the organisational sense) caches in those areas. Especially in Northern Ireland.

 

And yet it is so easy to accommodate both requirements: simply list Ireland, Northern Ireland, England, Scotland & Wales. That there is such opposition to this by both Irish cachers and by Groundspeak gives a strong implication that the decision has more to do with politics than geography.

 

* Here's an analogy which may help Groundspeak at least understand why this is an issue. In 1861, in the height of the Civil War, the residents of what was then the western part of the state of Virginia voted to secede from Virginia and formed the state of West Virginia which was admitted to the union in 1863. I'm sure that if Groundspeak insisted that caches in WV were listed in VA then not only would there be much confusion but there would be an outcry far greater than this mostly calm and reasoned discussion :D.

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And yet it is so easy to accommodate both requirements: simply list Ireland, Northern Ireland, England, Scotland & Wales. That there is such opposition to this by both Irish cachers and by Groundspeak gives a strong implication that the decision has more to do with politics than geography.

Hardly practical though, is it? If you're caching on the border of the ROI and NI you're unlikely to care much about the boundary as far as finding caches is concerned, and having two separate "countries" there would be inconvenient. The same for England and Wales or Scotland.

Yet if you're on the island of Ireland you're not likely to be at all interested in a Manx or Scottish cache even though there could be several within 40 miles or so. It seems logical to use physical geography in this case, as it is for the IOM.

 

I seem to recall that the caching State/Province of South-West England was the subject of a similar discussion, as we wanted to bring this in and eliminate caches in Wales that are irrelevant due to the Bristol Channel. Previous to the State/Province upgrade, cachers in Weston-Super-Mare were wasting much of their local PQ with lists of caches in South Wales that were 70 miles away by road.

 

Gibraltar seem more of an anomaly to me, as it's regarded as a separate country even though for caching purposes it's part of Spain. I guess it's because you have to wait at a border there and produce a passport so it's nice not to be fooled into thinking that these caches are as accessible as the ones just over the Spanish border.

 

Perhaps the whole argument could be bypassed by calling the list "regions" (or something) instead of "countries".

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And yet it is so easy to accommodate both requirements: simply list Ireland, Northern Ireland, England, Scotland & Wales. That there is such opposition to this by both Irish cachers and by Groundspeak gives a strong implication that the decision has more to do with politics than geography.

Hardly practical though, is it? If you're caching on the border of the ROI and NI you're unlikely to care much about the boundary as far as finding caches is concerned, and having two separate "countries" there would be inconvenient. The same for England and Wales or Scotland.

Yet if you're on the island of Ireland you're not likely to be at all interested in a Manx or Scottish cache even though there could be several within 40 miles or so. It seems logical to use physical geography in this case, as it is for the IOM.

 

I seem to recall that the caching State/Province of South-West England was the subject of a similar discussion, as we wanted to bring this in and eliminate caches in Wales that are irrelevant due to the Bristol Channel. Previous to the State/Province upgrade, cachers in Weston-Super-Mare were wasting much of their local PQ with lists of caches in South Wales that were 70 miles away by road.

 

Gibraltar seem more of an anomaly to me, as it's regarded as a separate country even though for caching purposes it's part of Spain. I guess it's because you have to wait at a border there and produce a passport so it's nice not to be fooled into thinking that these caches are as accessible as the ones just over the Spanish border.

 

Perhaps the whole argument could be bypassed by calling the list "regions" (or something) instead of "countries".

Perhaps the whole argument could be bypassed by calling the list "regions" (or something) instead of "countries".

 

Totally agree with HH here. The proverbial 'storm in a tea cup'. 'Countries', 'Regions', 'Districts' 'Georepublics', what ever you want to call them is irrelevant to Geocaching in my opinion. At the ned of the day we are playing a game looking for plastic containers which is surely far more important.

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Just found some very useful by hairytoeman:

 

Searching for caches by Norn Iron postcode in GC.com

Hi all, not trying to teach any of you to suck eggs, but I had a problem last week which has been solved on the GC forums, and I wanted to share the love here.

 

When I searched for geocaches by postcode, I kept getting German ones. Something to do with the BT at the start being shares between Northern Ireland and Bayern.

I had a back door at www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.aspx (which worked even when the hide and seek a cache postcode portion took me to Germany)

 

From the forums the trick is to enter the postcode as normal, followed by UK, e.g. BT2 8GB UK

 

I hope this helps some people.

 

Htm

 

It is further suggested by the Clueless Two that if you drop the last 2 characters from the Northern Ireland BT postcode you can look for local caches :rolleyes: . Always good to know.

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Not sure if anyone else has mentioned it as I've not read all the thread, but I've just noticed on my Statistics Maps page that Northern Ireland is coloured in dark, as part of the UK, whilst ROI is coloured in pale, as a separate country (with appropriate flags showing in the legend). However, my 7 Irish caches were all found in Belfast. :unsure:

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Perhaps the whole argument could be bypassed by calling the list "regions" (or something) instead of "countries".
Regions works for me. On the old thread on this topic I suggested Territories. Same difference. Actually, Region is punchier.

 

I can understand why some people get upset with NI joining RoI to become 'Ireland' on GC.com, while leaving 'The UK' as an option. Changing The UK to Great Britain might be a move in the right direction but technically, that could exclude islands (IOW, Shetland etc). However, practically speaking, since the IOW is an English county (albeit the smallest one at high tide) and England is part of Great Britain, you could argue it's an inclusive term for all of the bits of the British Isles which aren't i) Irish or ii) The Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey (aka The Channel Islands) or iii) The Isle of Man - all of which have their own listing on GC.com anyway. So the Scillies, being a part of Cornwall, and Cornwall being a part of England (discuss!) and England being a part of Great Britain... And Flat Holm being Welsh and Wales being a part of Great Britain... and Orkney being a part of Scotland, and Scotland being a part of Great Britain (discuss!!) - I'm sure you get my point.

 

The bottom line: Groundspeak should consider moving away from the word 'country' if they're going to invent their own countries. Region is more practical and accurate and less political and misleading.

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why don't you all get a life and catch yerselves on - its a fecking game (hobby) and it can be fun to get out, meet new people etc.

 

wasting time complaing on the forums aint gonna change damm all except alienate people and isolate yourself.

 

No one suggested that NI was not part of the UK in the first place - its just easier to group the island as a whole for geographical and also for ease of use when it comes to generating PQ's and polygon areas etc used in other apps.

 

Your political views are your own and honestly most reasonably minded people don't give a hoot what side of the fence your on.

 

so lets get this discussion closed and just get out there and play the damm game

Hi, I have been reading this debate with horrific amusement the past while, and your message was a breath of fresh air. Everyone seems to have lost the plot. the caches are in the same place, who cares which flag flies fro them. cache on

mahon2011

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As a geocacher of some years who frequented many forums and lives in the "North" of the island, I remember the discussions at the time and as a British Citizen of the UK, in geocaching terms I and others agreed with the changes, now if a Noob wants to waltz into my hobby in my forums and complain about my reviewer, who lets face it did the job on his own for long enough, with help now and again from the reviewers in Scotland, England, Wales, before a second reviewer came on board in Ireland, then in my humble opinion BOG OFF. If your going to be so petty and pedantic, go find something else to do. If you want to play the game WELCOME ABOARD.

 

I've grown up with geocaching since it was relatively new, I've driven 200 plus miles to attend a geocaching event, just to say I was there. I got the hats and t shirts to prove it and some great craic was had with fellow geocaching nutters, and apart from one or two edjits, we've all got on great, without this political rubbish. Its not about who is right, what it should be called UK/GB etc, its about a GAME, making new friends gaving fun and seeing some our hidden Gems. A geocaching tourist from America hitting the Island of Ireland wants to find geocaches, not geo donts.As Malcolm says, get out there and enjoy the game, and when you reach your first 100 finds, first 200 finds etc etc, then come back and we will talk, by that time the love of the game will have taken over.

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....if a Noob wants to waltz into my hobby in my forums and complain .......then in my humble opinion BOG OFF. If your going to be so petty and pedantic, go find something else to do.

 

.... when you reach your first 100 finds, first 200 finds etc etc, then come back and we will talk, ...

Well there's a nice welcome! I happen to disagree with the original premise but this is a discussion forum so all opinions should be welcome, even ones you or I disagree with. Also there is nothing to suggest that a person's opinions only count once they have found a certain number of caches. I welcome new perspectives on this game as well as in other walks of life.

 

Denigration of an opposing point of view and let's face it, actual insults do nothing to forward your cause. By all means argue, but please try and keep it civil.

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....if a Noob wants to waltz into my hobby in my forums and complain .......then in my humble opinion BOG OFF. If your going to be so petty and pedantic, go find something else to do.

 

.... when you reach your first 100 finds, first 200 finds etc etc, then come back and we will talk, ...

Well there's a nice welcome! I happen to disagree with the original premise but this is a discussion forum so all opinions should be welcome, even ones you or I disagree with. Also there is nothing to suggest that a person's opinions only count once they have found a certain number of caches. I welcome new perspectives on this game as well as in other walks of life.

 

Denigration of an opposing point of view and let's face it, actual insults do nothing to forward your cause. By all means argue, but please try and keep it civil.

 

Oh I don't think I was unwelcoming, I don't think I was denigrating of an opposing view point, the fact of the matter is geocachers from Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland agreed on something for the betterment of geocaching and our hobby, someone new to the game asks a question, it gets answered, not once but several times as to why things are the way they are, but this person is not content with the answers given, infect in true Northern Irish fashion, they want to create something out of nothing, they want to antagonise cachers on a forum about geocaching with something that quite frankly this country is trying to move on from. It does nothing to enhance geocaching, it does nothing to help friendships, it even believe it or not does not help politics. So I say again get on with the game and stop being so petty about where NI is in terms of a game. I've voiced my opinion, I've pointed out that it's neither Geocaching.com or reviewers faults and that it was cachers on the ground in from early on who jointly agreed, if you don't like it I'm sorry, but please stop going on and on about something we know is not perfect, but it works for 99.999 cachers. So I'm away caching now, happy debating.

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Was happy to leave this one buried. To agree to start, yes we are all better leaving the dark days of Irish bigots behind, NI is less polar and this is all for the good. But can I redirect the bandwagon from heading down a new route; the initial point was to correct the mistake of having the UK as a group without NI. I was proposing the group to be GB and hence be correct to have NI with the South (happy to split hairs even if it still is not a ´country´).

 

So in actual fact all the political incitement has been brought about by a few too lazy to read all the lines and not just the middle ones that they select. There is a clear mistake in the site, and it rears its head from time to time because it does not get fixed. To address the latter points, someone that collects 200+ tupperware boxes clearly doesn´t collect wisdom points along the way. Geocaching for me is not a routine, its a nice option. Put simply a geocaching forum is for discussion, in this case to try and correct a small glitch in the system. How NI got thrown into the Ireland box is a real pandaora´s box, which in reality did not get voted in by NI geocachers but lumbered in for convenience by the hierarchy. It´s good to talk B) .

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What a silly comment. Northern Ireland is in the United Kingdom, and the article presented by the Canadian Rockies highlights that this is a sensitive issue; all the more reason to stick to the facts where Northern Ireland is in the United Kindgom and passing it of as Ireland is an insult to the many victims of the IRA that have helped defend Northern Ireland as part of the UK. Sensitivity works both ways. Tell this to the families of English, Welsh, and Scottish servicemen that have died there defending such virtues. I didn't want this to get political, but its simple facts and prancing round it like fairies doesn't change that. <_<

 

Well said; I couldn't agree more.

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Does GS separate Hawaii into a different geographic region from mainland USA (possibly lumped in with other Pacific islands)? If so, then it is the same situation. I agree it would be a bit confusing to have GB referred to as UK, but not annoyingly so. 'Ireland' is the name of the island, after all, as opposed to 'RoI' and 'UK' which are the political parts, so no problem on the other side.

 

Not too bothered by this, to be honest -- I'd rather go off and crawl through bushes looking for tupperware boxes...

 

What about Alaska? Perhaps it should be lumped in with Canada! When I look at my stats it lists "Countries" where I have cached. Countries by it's very definition is based on political boundaries. That is, a country is a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory.

 

If we aren't going to use that definition and geocache categorization is based purely on geography then Alaska, continental USA, Canada, and Mexico should all just be listed as North America and not as separate "countries". It seems that Groundspeak is really going out of their way to twist definitions in order to avoid fixing a mistake.

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I will repeat the text of the linked Help Center article for the benefit of recent discussion participants who may not have followed the link.

 

Place Names for UK and Ireland

 

When assigning regions within Europe, Groundspeak considered two important aspects: political regions and geographical regions. In both the United Kingdom  and Ireland  the decision was made to use non-political, geographical divisions. This decision was made after input from the UK and Ireland Reviewers, the forum community, and prominent members of the Geocaching Association of Great Britain and Geocaching Ireland, as well as Groundspeak staff. The solution was proposed and the community agreed with the proposal.

 

In making this decision our intention was for geocachers to focus on the recreational aspect of geocaching, rather than associate geocaching with political differences. This decision received widespread support at the time of its introduction, and is in no way meant as a sign of disrespect.

 

Importantly, this geographical division allows local Reviewers to oversee a specific geographic region.

 

Groundspeak recognizes that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, and is distinct from the Republic of Ireland (RoI). Geocachers in Northern Ireland are able to select the region of Ulster. To those who are unaware of the larger background: while a portion of the original Ulster region is part of the Republic of Ireland, Ulster is generally equated to Northern Ireland (part of the UK). The political boundaries between the UK and RoI are a potentially sensitive matter to the residents of Northern Ireland.

 

Further, in the rest of the UK, we decided together with the community's support, that we would again use geographical regions like Southern Scotland or West Midlands. We did not use political designations as is typically done in the rest of the geocaching world. For those familiar with US geography, it's as if we used the geographical term "New England" instead of the political state names of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut.

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As I understand it the island of Ireland was kept as one entity to enable easy searching of caches that are on the island without picking up closeby caches in the rest of the UK that are separated from Ireland by the Irish Sea. It is a result of the way GC.com allowed searching of caches and as such the consensus of cachers on both sides of the border in Ireland is that this is OK from what I have read. The decision was made before the UK and Ireland were split into regions which can be used now to eliminate the searching problem.

Edited by Pieman
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Can I put some oil on this fire?

 

Baarle Hertog is a Belgian town in the Province of Antwerp, however, it's an enclave totally surrounded by the Netherlands. When selecting caches in the province Noord-Brabant, Netherlands you can get all caches in the geographical boundaries of that province BUT you will miss a spot where the Belgian caches are. This situation seems similar to the RoI/NI situation.

 

Other example. Select all caches in UAE and you miss 6 caches in Madha and Nahwa because they are in Oman but surrounded by UAE.

 

Both these examples, if chosen to use geographical boundaries, should include Baarle Hertog (B) in Netherlands, Noord-Brabant and the Omani caches with UAE. For both these examples political boundaries were chosen.

 

On the other hand, Svalbard and Jan Mayen are listed on their own instead of Norway.

 

Edit:

Haiti/Domenican Republic One Island, two countries.

St. Martin / Sint Maarten, seperate countries, Sint Maarten listed as Netherlands Antilles

Edited by on4bam
Link to comment

I will repeat the text of the linked Help Center article for the benefit of recent discussion participants who may not have followed the link.

 

Place Names for UK and Ireland

 

When assigning regions within Europe, Groundspeak considered two important aspects: political regions and geographical regions. In both the United Kingdom  and Ireland  the decision was made to use non-political, geographical divisions. This decision was made after input from the UK and Ireland Reviewers, the forum community, and prominent members of the Geocaching Association of Great Britain and Geocaching Ireland, as well as Groundspeak staff. The solution was proposed and the community agreed with the proposal.

 

In making this decision our intention was for geocachers to focus on the recreational aspect of geocaching, rather than associate geocaching with political differences. This decision received widespread support at the time of its introduction, and is in no way meant as a sign of disrespect.

 

Importantly, this geographical division allows local Reviewers to oversee a specific geographic region.

 

Groundspeak recognizes that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, and is distinct from the Republic of Ireland (RoI). Geocachers in Northern Ireland are able to select the region of Ulster. To those who are unaware of the larger background: while a portion of the original Ulster region is part of the Republic of Ireland, Ulster is generally equated to Northern Ireland (part of the UK). The political boundaries between the UK and RoI are a potentially sensitive matter to the residents of Northern Ireland.

 

Further, in the rest of the UK, we decided together with the community's support, that we would again use geographical regions like Southern Scotland or West Midlands. We did not use political designations as is typically done in the rest of the geocaching world. For those familiar with US geography, it's as if we used the geographical term "New England" instead of the political state names of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut.

 

I have read the link. It doesn't explain why even though I've done caches in Northern Ireland the maps in my statistics do not indicate that I have found any caches in Northern Ireland (i.e., Northern Ireland is not highlighted). The map only indicates that I have found caches in the Republic of Ireland. So, apparently the only way to get Northern Ireland to be highlighted on the maps is to log a cache somewhere else in the UK OTHER than in Northern Ireland. This is nonsense.

 

It seems that GC.com is being inconsistent with this issue. If the entire island of Ireland is going to be lumped into one geographical region than any cache found in Ireland (be it in the Republic of Ireland or in Northern Ireland) should result in the entire island of Ireland being highlighted on the map statistics. Currently this is not the case! GC.com should fix this inconsistency ASAP.

Edited by KestrelAerie
Link to comment

I will repeat the text of the linked Help Center article for the benefit of recent discussion participants who may not have followed the link.

 

Place Names for UK and Ireland

 

When assigning regions within Europe, Groundspeak considered two important aspects: political regions and geographical regions. In both the United Kingdom  and Ireland  the decision was made to use non-political, geographical divisions. This decision was made after input from the UK and Ireland Reviewers, the forum community, and prominent members of the Geocaching Association of Great Britain and Geocaching Ireland, as well as Groundspeak staff. The solution was proposed and the community agreed with the proposal.

 

In making this decision our intention was for geocachers to focus on the recreational aspect of geocaching, rather than associate geocaching with political differences. This decision received widespread support at the time of its introduction, and is in no way meant as a sign of disrespect.

 

Importantly, this geographical division allows local Reviewers to oversee a specific geographic region.

 

Groundspeak recognizes that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, and is distinct from the Republic of Ireland (RoI). Geocachers in Northern Ireland are able to select the region of Ulster. To those who are unaware of the larger background: while a portion of the original Ulster region is part of the Republic of Ireland, Ulster is generally equated to Northern Ireland (part of the UK). The political boundaries between the UK and RoI are a potentially sensitive matter to the residents of Northern Ireland.

 

Further, in the rest of the UK, we decided together with the community's support, that we would again use geographical regions like Southern Scotland or West Midlands. We did not use political designations as is typically done in the rest of the geocaching world. For those familiar with US geography, it's as if we used the geographical term "New England" instead of the political state names of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut.

 

I have read the link. It doesn't explain why even though I've done caches in Northern Ireland the maps in my statistics do not indicate that I have found any caches in Northern Ireland (i.e., Northern Ireland is not highlighted). The map only indicates that I have found caches in the Republic of Ireland. So, apparently the only way to get Northern Ireland to be highlighted on the maps is to log a cache somewhere else in the UK OTHER than in Northern Ireland. This is nonsense.

 

It seems that GC.com is being inconsistent with this issue. If the entire island of Ireland is going to be lumped into one geographical region than any cache found in Ireland (be it in the Republic of Ireland or in Northern Ireland) should result in the entire island of Ireland being highlighted on the map statistics. Currently this is not the case! GC.com should fix this inconsistency ASAP.

 

I was a UK Reviewer involved in the discussions, along with the Irish Reviewer. At the time when the UK Regions were created. The UK Community, was asked which of the various Counties List, they would prefer to be used, Historic/Ceremonial/Political. Non of which actually match, and the Political one, subject to change at the whim of Politicians. No one could agree, and a 150+ Name Drop Down List, for the UK was unworkable. Hence the creation of UK Regions.

 

This brought up the suggestion for Regions for Ireland & NI. Because up to that point, there was Politics within Geocaching in NI, divided on what religion the person submitting the Listing was. This was due to a decision made right at the beginning of the hobby, where Catholic Geocachers, living and Caching in NI, asked for permission to List their cache in Eire, this being granted. Created that Political divide.

 

Another issue was, running a PQ, remembering that there were very few caches around, meant that a result could pull caches from Scotland, if the PQ was based in NI, and vice versa for Scotland. It also meant that a Visitor, not aware of the situation, could run a pq, and miss caches, listed as being in Eire, despite being very close to other pq results.

 

Out of the discussion, was a suggestion, that covered the Whole of Ireland, both NI and Eire, but one which took Politics completely out of Geocaching, within NI

 

What was suggested, was to use the "Historic" Regions of the island of Ireland, which pre-dated any of the History within Ireland, which lead up to the creation of the Free State, and the Troubles within NI. If you compare the Modern Ulster, to the Historic Ulster which is used as a GC Region for Ireland. You will find that a number of Counties, within Eire are included, with the Modern Counties of NI. The Regions were tweaked slightly, with the Creation of Dublin Region.

 

To make it very clear, "Groundspeak did not" create the UK and Ireland regions, the UK and Ireland Reviewers did, the Regions were then presented to Groundspeak. With Ireland/NI, 2 options were presented NI as a Region of the UK, which would have caused political issues, for those Geocachers within NI who Listed their cache under Ireland, or the option as recommended to Groundspeak, Ireland being divided in to the Non Political Historic Regions. Groundspeak chose to go with the recommendation.

 

The implementation was welcomed by Geocachers on both sides of the Political Divide within the NI Geocaching Community, some who were very staunch about their choice of where they Listed their Geocaches in NI.

 

The result was a Non Political Geocaching process for NI, one which doe not and does not involve Eire, taking over NI, because the Irish Regions, pre-date any Politics within Ireland. So was a Win Win situation for all sides.

 

If you wish to discuss the above, in person with me. I will be at the Essex Mega Event, from the Thursday until the Monday. You'll easily find me on the North Wales 2016 Mega Event Stall on the Saturday, or the Gavin to Stacey Hand Over event on the Sunday.

 

Once again Groundspeak just went with what was recommended by the UK & Ireland Reviewers. The UK Reviewers, would review caches in NI and Listed under the UK, the Irish Reviewer would review caches in NI, and Listed under Ireland. The recommendation removed the "Politics" from the situation.

 

Dave

Deceangi UK Reviewer 2006 - 2014

Edited by Brenin Tegeingl
Link to comment

I will repeat the text of the linked Help Center article for the benefit of recent discussion participants who may not have followed the link.

 

Place Names for UK and Ireland

 

When assigning regions within Europe, Groundspeak considered two important aspects: political regions and geographical regions. In both the United Kingdom  and Ireland  the decision was made to use non-political, geographical divisions. This decision was made after input from the UK and Ireland Reviewers, the forum community, and prominent members of the Geocaching Association of Great Britain and Geocaching Ireland, as well as Groundspeak staff. The solution was proposed and the community agreed with the proposal.

 

In making this decision our intention was for geocachers to focus on the recreational aspect of geocaching, rather than associate geocaching with political differences. This decision received widespread support at the time of its introduction, and is in no way meant as a sign of disrespect.

 

Importantly, this geographical division allows local Reviewers to oversee a specific geographic region.

 

Groundspeak recognizes that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, and is distinct from the Republic of Ireland (RoI). Geocachers in Northern Ireland are able to select the region of Ulster. To those who are unaware of the larger background: while a portion of the original Ulster region is part of the Republic of Ireland, Ulster is generally equated to Northern Ireland (part of the UK). The political boundaries between the UK and RoI are a potentially sensitive matter to the residents of Northern Ireland.

 

Further, in the rest of the UK, we decided together with the community's support, that we would again use geographical regions like Southern Scotland or West Midlands. We did not use political designations as is typically done in the rest of the geocaching world. For those familiar with US geography, it's as if we used the geographical term "New England" instead of the political state names of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut.

 

I have read the link. It doesn't explain why even though I've done caches in Northern Ireland the maps in my statistics do not indicate that I have found any caches in Northern Ireland (i.e., Northern Ireland is not highlighted). The map only indicates that I have found caches in the Republic of Ireland. So, apparently the only way to get Northern Ireland to be highlighted on the maps is to log a cache somewhere else in the UK OTHER than in Northern Ireland. This is nonsense.

 

It seems that GC.com is being inconsistent with this issue. If the entire island of Ireland is going to be lumped into one geographical region than any cache found in Ireland (be it in the Republic of Ireland or in Northern Ireland) should result in the entire island of Ireland being highlighted on the map statistics. Currently this is not the case! GC.com should fix this inconsistency ASAP.

 

I was a UK Reviewer involved in the discussions, along with the Irish Reviewer. At the time when the UK Regions were created. The UK Community, was asked which of the various Counties List, they would prefer to be used, Historic/Ceremonial/Political. Non of which actually match, and the Political one, subject to change at the whim of Politicians. No one could agree, and a 150+ Name Drop Down List, for the UK was unworkable. Hence the creation of UK Regions.

 

This brought up the suggestion for Regions for Ireland & NI. Because up to that point, there was Politics within Geocaching in NI, divided on what religion the person submitting the Listing was. This was due to a decision made right at the beginning of the hobby, where Catholic Geocachers, living and Caching in NI, asked for permission to List their cache in Eire, this being granted. Created that Political divide.

 

Another issue was, running a PQ, remembering that there were very few caches around, meant that a result could pull caches from Scotland, if the PQ was based in NI, and vice versa for Scotland. It also meant that a Visitor, not aware of the situation, could run a pq, and miss caches, listed as being in Eire, despite being very close to other pq results.

 

Out of the discussion, was a suggestion, that covered the Whole of Ireland, both NI and Eire, but one which took Politics completely out of Geocaching, within NI

 

What was suggested, was to use the "Historic" Regions of the island of Ireland, which pre-dated any of the History within Ireland, which lead up to the creation of the Free State, and the Troubles within NI. If you compare the Modern Ulster, to the Historic Ulster which is used as a GC Region for Ireland. You will find that a number of Counties, within Eire are included, with the Modern Counties of NI. The Regions were tweaked slightly, with the Creation of Dublin Region.

 

To make it very clear, "Groundspeak did not" create the UK and Ireland regions, the UK and Ireland Reviewers did, the Regions were then presented to Groundspeak. With Ireland/NI, 2 options were presented NI as a Region of the UK, which would have caused political issues, for those Geocachers within NI who Listed their cache under Ireland, or the option as recommended to Groundspeak, Ireland being divided in to the Non Political Historic Regions. Groundspeak chose to go with the recommendation.

 

The implementation was welcomed by Geocachers on both sides of the Political Divide within the NI Geocaching Community, some who were very staunch about their choice of where they Listed their Geocaches in NI.

 

The result was a Non Political Geocaching process for NI, one which doe not and does not involve Eire, taking over NI, because the Irish Regions, pre-date any Politics within Ireland. So was a Win Win situation for all sides.

 

If you wish to discuss the above, in person with me. I will be at the Essex Mega Event, from the Thursday until the Monday. You'll easily find me on the North Wales 2016 Mega Event Stall on the Saturday, or the Gavin to Stacey Hand Over event on the Sunday.

 

Once again Groundspeak just went with what was recommended by the UK & Ireland Reviewers. The UK Reviewers, would review caches in NI and Listed under the UK, the Irish Reviewer would review caches in NI, and Listed under Ireland. The recommendation removed the "Politics" from the situation.

 

Dave

Deceangi UK Reviewer 2006 - 2014

 

Any chance that GC.com can fix the maps shown in user profile statistics then? Right now if a geocacher were to only cache in NI the only region on the maps that would be highlighted is ROI (i.e., NI would NOT be highlighted). Politics aside, this is not the result that any rational person would expect.

 

I have difficulty believing that the NI geocaching community would expect or support this result. My suspicion is that most geocachers that reside in Ireland or the UK have found caches in the UK, ROI, and NI so their map statistics appear correct (i.e., all of the island of Ireland and the UK are highlighted). The problem only occurs when visitors, like myself, only visit the island of Ireland and find caches in just ROI and NI. In this case only ROI will be highlighted in the users profile map statistics.

 

I have no political, religious, or geographical "axe to grind". I just want my user profile to accurately portray my geocaching stats. Right now it does not.

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Any chance that GC.com can fix the maps shown in user profile statistics then?

 

The maps we display on statistics are part of a Google toolset. Unless we can convince Google to create something that matches our country breakdown, that is unlikely, and we simply don't have the resources to create such a toolset ourselves at this time.

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The maps we display on statistics are part of a Google toolset. Unless we can convince Google to create something that matches our country breakdown, that is unlikely, and we simply don't have the resources to create such a toolset ourselves at this time.

 

So Google decided for themselves that official borders (as in UN countries) should not be respected? Next stop, Alaska will be in Canada B)

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The maps we display on statistics are part of a Google toolset. Unless we can convince Google to create something that matches our country breakdown, that is unlikely, and we simply don't have the resources to create such a toolset ourselves at this time.

 

So Google decided for themselves that official borders (as in UN countries) should not be respected? Next stop, Alaska will be in Canada B)

 

I think you misunderstood my post. Google Maps show the proper borders, while Geocaching.com uses a different country breakdown for the reasons described in this lengthy thread.

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So Google GS decided for themselves that official borders (as in UN countries) should not be respected? Next stop, Alaska will be in Canada B)

 

I think you misunderstood my post. Google Maps show the proper borders, while Geocaching.com uses a different country breakdown for the reasons described in this lengthy thread.

 

Better? :lol:

I an earlier post I gave examples of other places that were split between countries but are "labeled" correctly.

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I have difficulty believing that the NI geocaching community would expect or support this result

 

Sorry but if you'd actually read my post, explaining the background behind the decision, you would have noticed, that I stated that Geocachers on both sides of the Political Divide within NI. Were very happy with the choice.

 

I personally tried to get several of the more active Cache Placers, within NI, before the change. Who all "demanded" and I do not use that term lightly. To List their Geocaches under Ireland, to change then to the UK, the actual Country they were in. One basically told me, any attempt to change the Location of his caches, to the UK, even if Listed under Ulster UK, would result in "all" of his caches, being Archived.

 

Not a single Geocacher would change their NI located caches from Ireland to UK!

 

Yet the majority were very happy to change them to Ulster Ireland, and those on the other side of the Political divide, who swore black was blue, that they would never allow their caches to be Listed under "Ireland", happily changed their caches to Ulster Ireland.

 

The why both sides where happy? Provinces of Ireland The map goes back into the early History of the Island of Ireland. No Northern Ireland! No Southern Ireland! No Protestants! No Catholics!No Politics, getting involved in Geocaching!

 

It was a Win Win for both Protestants and Catholics within the Geocaching Community of NI. And I'm still proud to have been involved in helping to remove Religious Political divides, from Geocaching in NI.

 

Dave

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I have difficulty believing that the NI geocaching community would expect or support this result

 

Sorry but if you'd actually read my post, explaining the background behind the decision, you would have noticed, that I stated that Geocachers on both sides of the Political Divide within NI. Were very happy with the choice.

 

I personally tried to get several of the more active Cache Placers, within NI, before the change. Who all "demanded" and I do not use that term lightly. To List their Geocaches under Ireland, to change then to the UK, the actual Country they were in. One basically told me, any attempt to change the Location of his caches, to the UK, even if Listed under Ulster UK, would result in "all" of his caches, being Archived.

 

Not a single Geocacher would change their NI located caches from Ireland to UK!

 

Yet the majority were very happy to change them to Ulster Ireland, and those on the other side of the Political divide, who swore black was blue, that they would never allow their caches to be Listed under "Ireland", happily changed their caches to Ulster Ireland.

 

The why both sides where happy? Provinces of Ireland The map goes back into the early History of the Island of Ireland. No Northern Ireland! No Southern Ireland! No Protestants! No Catholics!No Politics, getting involved in Geocaching!

 

It was a Win Win for both Protestants and Catholics within the Geocaching Community of NI. And I'm still proud to have been involved in helping to remove Religious Political divides, from Geocaching in NI.

 

Dave

 

I hear what you are saying, but it still doesn't explain the rationale for incorrectly showing the cache map statistics. If I found a cache in Ulster then IMHO Northern Ireland should be highlighted.

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