Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2
GeoPig77

Caches on Indiana DNR forest property

Recommended Posts

I just recently tried to place two caches in the Jackson-Washington state forest in Southern IN. To my surprise they were denied due to a DNR rule requiring a permit to place a cache on their property. This was the first I have heard of this. I know that there are thousands of caches placed on DNR property and am curious to know if other cachers have gone through the permitting process. It also states once you get the permit granted, the cache can only stay in place for 12 months and then must be removed. This seems to be a ridiculous regulation to me.

 

The DNR website is hard to navigate and I could not find answers to my questions there. I was able to get a PDF copy of the permit application but it does not say what to do with it once it is filled out. Where should I send it? It also appears to require that I include a USGS map with the locations of the caches marked. Why not just ask for the coordinates?

 

Considering that geocaching brings thousands of users to DNR properties throughout the year, This seems to place an unnecessary burden on anyone wanting to place new caches and expand the sport.

 

What have your experiences been when trying to place caches on IDNR property?

Share this post


Link to post

Welcome to the club. What you discribe as became more common in the last year or so, but the laws have been on the books for some time. Someone must have complained and Groundspeak got up to speed with the DCR. Caches require permits now and they are around $59 per year per placement. :ph34r: Virtuals are still free and do not require permission. Challanges anyone? :)

Share this post


Link to post

This is why I'm dead set against evangelizing this game. The more publicity caching gets, the sooner this happens to a public tract of land near YOU.

Share this post


Link to post

This is why I'm dead set against evangelizing this game. The more publicity caching gets, the sooner this happens to a public tract of land near YOU.

And that is how it happened to me. Myself and many other geocachers had listings placed on National Forest property when geocaching was a bunch of hippie looking hikers. Now the hobby grew into a national sport. There are some rules in place, finding them is tough. I reside in Division 8 in Virginia, finally tracked down someone in Texas that was in charge of geocaching in Virginia. All I'm sure about know is that my local reviewer will not publish any new listings in Jefferson Natioanl Forest. The Cherokee National Forest has a geocaching policy now, but you won't like it. :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post

If any government agency people are reading this...

 

I will not fill out a permit application to hide a cache, and I certainly won't pay a fee for the privilege of doing so. I'll just stop hiding caches, and slowly fade away from the game.

 

Do you want visitors in your park, or not?

Share this post


Link to post

If any government agency people are reading this...

 

I will not fill out a permit application to hide a cache, and I certainly won't pay a fee for the privilege of doing so. I'll just stop hiding caches, and slowly fade away from the game.

 

Do you want visitors in your park, or not?

Tourist have cameras, Groundspeak has Challanges. :laughing: I won't pay to list a geocache either, but that don't stop me from playing in the woods with my GPS unit. :anitongue: It does look like the old days of hiking trails and geocaches are gone unless changes can be made. I'm not much into the Urban geocaching myself, and EarthCaches? Let's not go there. :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post

They are banned on all South Carolina DNR lands or any lands controlled by the SCDNR by law (H3794) and this includes many areas of the South Carolina National Forest (although many geocaches continue to exist there).

Share this post


Link to post

I am moving this thread from the Geocaching Topics forum to the Midwest forum.

Share this post


Link to post

Ok, this is just silly.

 

the best rule about this I found so far...

(3) A cache cannot be approved for placement in an area that could reasonably cause danger to a geocaching participant or to

another person who visits the DNR property. Examples of inappropriate areas include cliffs, bluffs, trees, lakes, streams, and

roads.

So if you can't put a cache near a tree or a road or a stream there really are not any places left in the local DNR area.

Now it is perfectly alright for leaves around a tree (it has its own section in the rules) but a plastic container near a tree and the tree is now somehow 'dangerous'?

Share this post


Link to post

Indiana DNR has had a Permit rule in effect since late 2005 or early 2006. It was just for the DNR State Parks until recently, they are now enforcing the Permit process for ALL DNR properties in Indiana.

I have some caches in State Parks with a Permit. It is not a big deal to do. Place the cache, take a picture along with the Coord's to the DNR property manager (Naturalist at some locations), fill out a Permit (FREE). If it meets their requirements, then it is usually approved.

Indiana requires the Permit to be updated yearly.....and you need to check on the cache regularly. I don't remember the time frame for checking on the hide. What you are looking for is a Geo-trail, If the cache is causing a trail then more than likely it needs to be moved or completely removed.

Good luck, go to the property manager and do the paper work. When it is approved I will be out that way to find it fairly soon. Just 35 miles away....

Share this post


Link to post

Welcome to the club. What you discribe as became more common in the last year or so, but the laws have been on the books for some time. Someone must have complained and Groundspeak got up to speed with the DCR. Caches require permits now and they are around $59 per year per placement. :ph34r: Virtuals are still free and do not require permission. Challanges anyone? :)

I think you have confused national forest issues with an Indiana State forest policy. Glad that kayak-cowboy came along to post the true situation locally.

Share this post


Link to post

Indiana DNR has had a Permit rule in effect since late 2005 or early 2006. It was just for the DNR State Parks until recently, they are now enforcing the Permit process for ALL DNR properties in Indiana.

I have some caches in State Parks with a Permit. It is not a big deal to do. Place the cache, take a picture along with the Coord's to the DNR property manager (Naturalist at some locations), fill out a Permit (FREE). If it meets their requirements, then it is usually approved.

Indiana requires the Permit to be updated yearly.....and you need to check on the cache regularly. I don't remember the time frame for checking on the hide. What you are looking for is a Geo-trail, If the cache is causing a trail then more than likely it needs to be moved or completely removed.

Good luck, go to the property manager and do the paper work. When it is approved I will be out that way to find it fairly soon. Just 35 miles away....

 

Here is a link to the Geocaching Policy on Indiana DNR Properties......(PDF format)

 

http://www.in.gov/nrc/files/IB46_1st_Amendment.pdf

Share this post


Link to post

Welcome to the club. What you discribe as became more common in the last year or so, but the laws have been on the books for some time. Someone must have complained and Groundspeak got up to speed with the DCR. Caches require permits now and they are around $59 per year per placement. :ph34r: Virtuals are still free and do not require permission. Challanges anyone? :)

I think you have confused national forest issues with an Indiana State forest policy. Glad that kayak-cowboy came along to post the true situation locally.

State Forest, National Forest, both are public property. Both have new rules about geocaching and permits are required now. I was close anyway.......... :laughing:

Share this post


Link to post

Indiana DNR has had a Permit rule in effect since late 2005 or early 2006. It was just for the DNR State Parks until recently, they are now enforcing the Permit process for ALL DNR properties in Indiana.

I have some caches in State Parks with a Permit. It is not a big deal to do. Place the cache, take a picture along with the Coord's to the DNR property manager (Naturalist at some locations), fill out a Permit (FREE). If it meets their requirements, then it is usually approved.

Indiana requires the Permit to be updated yearly.....and you need to check on the cache regularly. I don't remember the time frame for checking on the hide. What you are looking for is a Geo-trail, If the cache is causing a trail then more than likely it needs to be moved or completely removed.

Good luck, go to the property manager and do the paper work. When it is approved I will be out that way to find it fairly soon. Just 35 miles away....

 

Here is a link to the Geocaching Policy on Indiana DNR Properties......(PDF format)

 

http://www.in.gov/nrc/files/IB46_1st_Amendment.pdf

 

wow, someone went to some effort to make that policy. Geocaching is not just a small secret group of hikers to whoever made that form!

Share this post


Link to post

The Indiana DNR geocaching policy has been in place since around 2005. There is no fee in Indiana to place a cache on DNR property, you just have to have the property managers permission and fill out the proper permit. I have worked with two different DNR properties in the Northern part of Indiana and have not had a problem getting permission to place the caches. Your local reviewer will ask for a copy of the permit after you submit your cache for review before they will publish the cache on the geocaching website.

 

For the most part over the years this policy has only beeen enforceded only when placing caches in Indiana State parks. There have been times when complaints have led to cache removal of unpermitted caches. It is possibe that the property manager at the State forest where you wanted to place caches has contacted Groundspeak in the past and that is why you were denied placement of your caches. My suggestion is to contact the reviewer that asked for the permits if you have any questions as well as the property manager of where you want to place caches.

 

Here is the Indiana geocaching policy....Policy

 

Chris-Team Shydog

Share this post


Link to post

It is not a big deal to do. Place the cache, take a picture along with the Coord's to the DNR property manager (Naturalist at some locations), fill out a Permit (FREE). If it meets their requirements, then it is usually approved.

 

Actually that is incorrect. You are supposed to have the permit before placing the cache. Then take the photograph of the cache in position and have the image added to the permit kept on file with the property manager if the property manager wants a photograph.

 

Via a receptionist/secretary I was informed that the property manager would not allow a cache placement on the 2100+ acre DNR property near by. The property manager would allow me to place a virtual cache though. :rolleyes:

No reasons were given for the denial other then they didn't think it would be a good idea.

 

So before speaking with the property manager directly I am now gathering information for what is needed for the informal review process of the denial by the area director as noted in IB46-3-c.

 

It may not be a 'big deal' to do in some areas, but locally they are making it a huge process.

No one in the office answering phones knew of geocaching, what the IB-46 was, or where to get or send the official permit form.

There have been caches in the area in question since at least 2003 and since they seem to have no idea what geocaches are it would seem logical to conclude that geocaches have not been causing problems.

Share this post


Link to post

It is not a big deal to do. Place the cache, take a picture along with the Coord's to the DNR property manager (Naturalist at some locations), fill out a Permit (FREE). If it meets their requirements, then it is usually approved.

 

Actually that is incorrect. You are supposed to have the permit before placing the cache. Then take the photograph of the cache in position and have the image added to the permit kept on file with the property manager if the property manager wants a photograph.

 

Via a receptionist/secretary I was informed that the property manager would not allow a cache placement on the 2100+ acre DNR property near by. The property manager would allow me to place a virtual cache though. :rolleyes:

No reasons were given for the denial other then they didn't think it would be a good idea.

 

So before speaking with the property manager directly I am now gathering information for what is needed for the informal review process of the denial by the area director as noted in IB46-3-c.

 

It may not be a 'big deal' to do in some areas, but locally they are making it a huge process.

No one in the office answering phones knew of geocaching, what the IB-46 was, or where to get or send the official permit form.

There have been caches in the area in question since at least 2003 and since they seem to have no idea what geocaches are it would seem logical to conclude that geocaches have not been causing problems.

 

I have gone through the permit process, and this is the way I was told to do it by the Naturalist at that property:

 

Place the cache, Take pictures, Gather the coordinates, come back to fill out the form for their approval.

 

I guess the big draw back would be if they do not approve the hide, you have to go pick the Cache up. Then again, if you don't leave the cache in place and they do approve the hide, you have to go put the cache back in place.

Either way you do this, the cache will not be listed on Geocaching.com until the Permit is approved.

 

This particular property (Spring Mill) wanted a picture of the cache in place and a picture of the surrounding area before they would approve the hide. The best bet would be to talk to the Naturalist or Property manager to find out what information they need. If they are Pro-Geocaching they may even give you an idea of where on their property to go and place the hide.

Edited by kayak-cowboy

Share this post


Link to post

 

I have gone through the permit process, and this is the way I was told to do it by the Naturalist at that property:

 

Place the cache, Take pictures, Gather the coordinates, come back to fill out the form for their approval.

 

 

Ok, then your naturalist is not following the correct procedure. Directly from the IB-46:

3. License Applications

(a) A person must obtain an “official geocaching placement license” on a department form before placing a cache on or within

a DNR property. A cache that is placed without first obtaining a license under this information bulletin may be removed by the

department and disposed as provided in “Personal Property Found on DNR Properties”

 

I am glad that the property manager is willing to work with you and other cachers for getting caches on their property.

Locally the situation is quite different. Had I approached the local property manager after placing a cache on the property I am quite certain they would have demanded I remove it.

With IDNR having contacted Groundspeak the rules for the local reviewers have been modified to require a copy of the permit prior to publication. So more people are going to run into this issue. So I think it is best to suggest that people follow the procedure as outlined in IB-46 which is to get a permit before placing the cache. At least until you know exactly how the property manager you need to deal with wants to handle the situation.

Share this post


Link to post

 

I have gone through the permit process, and this is the way I was told to do it by the Naturalist at that property:

 

Place the cache, Take pictures, Gather the coordinates, come back to fill out the form for their approval.

 

 

Ok, then your naturalist is not following the correct procedure. Directly from the IB-46:

3. License Applications

(a) A person must obtain an “official geocaching placement license” on a department form before placing a cache on or within

a DNR property. A cache that is placed without first obtaining a license under this information bulletin may be removed by the

department and disposed as provided in “Personal Property Found on DNR Properties”

 

I am glad that the property manager is willing to work with you and other cachers for getting caches on their property.

Locally the situation is quite different. Had I approached the local property manager after placing a cache on the property I am quite certain they would have demanded I remove it.

With IDNR having contacted Groundspeak the rules for the local reviewers have been modified to require a copy of the permit prior to publication. So more people are going to run into this issue. So I think it is best to suggest that people follow the procedure as outlined in IB-46 which is to get a permit before placing the cache. At least until you know exactly how the property manager you need to deal with wants to handle the situation.

 

If you read further down in the rules: Section 5 License Standard: gives the property manager or naturalist discretion to issue, condition, or deny an application.

The "condition" this Naturalist wanted can be found in Section 5, Sub section 4: is where they want the photo and description of the area along with the coordinates.

 

None of this is done BEFORE talking to the appropriate person.

 

This is the way this particular Naturalist wanted the info needed. They were following the rules as they interpret them. Different property managers or naturalist may interpret them differently but it all works out to the same outcome. You need the Approved permit before Geocaching.com will publish the cache to the web.

This Naturalist told me where to go in the park to place the hide, gather the needed photo's, coordinates, etc......then come back to finish filling out the form with that needed information. None of this is outside of what the rules tell them they can do.

 

Here is a link to the Geocache Placement Permit. It is a download pdf format.

 

https://forms.in.gov/Download.aspx?id=9966

 

I'm sorry if your DNR property manager/naturalist is NOT Geocaching friendly, but not all the parks are that way. Some see the benefits of people who come to their parks and pay the entrance fee just to find a Geocache hide. Others will NOT approve any type of cache at all. Some of the parks actually hold Geocaching Events. Check out these upcoming events put on by the IN-DNR: GC34Z8J, GC38DVA, GC382EP.

Share this post


Link to post

You seem to be missing my point.

Unless you know for certain how a particular DNR property manager wants to handle geocaches it is not good advice to tell people in other areas to place their cache first and then seek the permit. It clearly states in the IB-46 to get the permit prior to placing a cache.

Nothing in section 5 states to place the container before getting the permit. Subsection 4 relates to how a photograph may be required. It will again depend on the property manager. It also states photographs of the cache and photographs of the location, but it does not state photographs of the cache at the location.

But your first given advice to people in this thread was:

Place the cache, take a picture along with the Coord's to the DNR property manager (Naturalist at some locations), fill out a Permit (FREE).

 

If a person places a cache without going through the permit process and then runs into a property manager who is against geocaching then section 6-2 can come into play and if the land manager wants to push the issue then the cache placer may face some financial penalties.

(2) Upon the suspension, revocation, or termination of an official geocaching placement license, the license holder is responsible for removal of the cache, for site restoration, and for any associated expenses. A person who places a cache without a license has the same responsibilities as if issued a license.

So it may not simply be a matter of walking back out and picking up your container if your permit is denied. The property manager may decide that you have damaged the area and you would now be responsible for the costs they determine for the repairs.

Share this post


Link to post

I just recently tried to place two caches in the Jackson-Washington state forest in Southern IN. To my surprise they were denied due to a DNR rule requiring a permit to place a cache on their property. This was the first I have heard of this. I know that there are thousands of caches placed on DNR property and am curious to know if other cachers have gone through the permitting process. It also states once you get the permit granted, the cache can only stay in place for 12 months and then must be removed. This seems to be a ridiculous regulation to me.

 

The DNR website is hard to navigate and I could not find answers to my questions there. I was able to get a PDF copy of the permit application but it does not say what to do with it once it is filled out. Where should I send it? It also appears to require that I include a USGS map with the locations of the caches marked. Why not just ask for the coordinates?

 

Considering that geocaching brings thousands of users to DNR properties throughout the year, This seems to place an unnecessary burden on anyone wanting to place new caches and expand the sport.

 

What have your experiences been when trying to place caches on IDNR property?

Share this post


Link to post

I just recently tried to place two caches in the Jackson-Washington state forest in Southern IN. To my surprise they were denied due to a DNR rule requiring a permit to place a cache on their property. This was the first I have heard of this. I know that there are thousands of caches placed on DNR property and am curious to know if other cachers have gone through the permitting process. It also states once you get the permit granted, the cache can only stay in place for 12 months and then must be removed. This seems to be a ridiculous regulation to me.

 

The DNR website is hard to navigate and I could not find answers to my questions there. I was able to get a PDF copy of the permit application but it does not say what to do with it once it is filled out. Where should I send it? It also appears to require that I include a USGS map with the locations of the caches marked. Why not just ask for the coordinates?

 

Considering that geocaching brings thousands of users to DNR properties throughout the year, This seems to place an unnecessary burden on anyone wanting to place new caches and expand the sport.

 

What have your experiences been when trying to place caches on IDNR property?

Share this post


Link to post

Indiana DNR has had a Permit rule in effect since late 2005 or early 2006. It was just for the DNR State Parks until recently, they are now enforcing the Permit process for ALL DNR properties in Indiana.

I have some caches in State Parks with a Permit. It is not a big deal to do. Place the cache, take a picture along with the Coord's to the DNR property manager (Naturalist at some locations), fill out a Permit (FREE). If it meets their requirements, then it is usually approved.

Indiana requires the Permit to be updated yearly.....and you need to check on the cache regularly. I don't remember the time frame for checking on the hide. What you are looking for is a Geo-trail, If the cache is causing a trail then more than likely it needs to be moved or completely removed.

Good luck, go to the property manager and do the paper work. When it is approved I will be out that way to find it fairly soon. Just 35 miles away....

 

Could a Moderator correct my statement in post #10? Right after my statement of "It is not a big deal to do." could you add "Talk to the DNR property manager or authorized person FIRST for a Geocache Permit. Find out from them where would be a good location."

 

Thanks. Next time I will proofread my post before submitting.

Share this post


Link to post

You seem to be missing my point.

Unless you know for certain how a particular DNR property manager wants to handle geocaches it is not good advice to tell people in other areas to place their cache first and then seek the permit. It clearly states in the IB-46 to get the permit prior to placing a cache.

Nothing in section 5 states to place the container before getting the permit. Subsection 4 relates to how a photograph may be required. It will again depend on the property manager. It also states photographs of the cache and photographs of the location, but it does not state photographs of the cache at the location.

But your first given advice to people in this thread was:

Place the cache, take a picture along with the Coord's to the DNR property manager (Naturalist at some locations), fill out a Permit (FREE).

 

If a person places a cache without going through the permit process and then runs into a property manager who is against geocaching then section 6-2 can come into play and if the land manager wants to push the issue then the cache placer may face some financial penalties.

(2) Upon the suspension, revocation, or termination of an official geocaching placement license, the license holder is responsible for removal of the cache, for site restoration, and for any associated expenses. A person who places a cache without a license has the same responsibilities as if issued a license.

So it may not simply be a matter of walking back out and picking up your container if your permit is denied. The property manager may decide that you have damaged the area and you would now be responsible for the costs they determine for the repairs.

 

I am not missing your point. I did misspeak in post #10. That will teach me to Preview the post to proofread before posting. I have asked for a moderator to correct that statement. So anyone looking at this thread please disregard post #10. Thanks.

 

There is NO DNR property going to give you an "Open Ended" license. This is why you see the DNR representative FIRST. It is completely up the the individual property on whether or not they want Geocaches on the property. If they want a Geocache on their property, ask where would be an appropriate place to hide the cache. The DNR representative Might want photos of the cache in place, and the area around the hide. This is completely up to the individual property. After you place the hide you will need to return to the office to finish filling out the form with Coord's, and any other information that the DNR representative is wanting.

If you look at the license itself....... https://forms.in.gov/Download.aspx?id=9966 (This is a Download copy) you will clearly see what information is needed. It asks for coordinates, description of cache, description of area around the cache, is there a Geocaching label on the cache...etc....

 

Section 5 talks about the discretion of the DNR representative. This is why the Naturalist I was working with wanted me to Place the hide, Take pictures of the cache "In Place" and pictures of the surrounding area. Again different properties will interpret the rules differently. Just like the rules Geocaching has is open to different interpretations.

Share this post


Link to post

For Indiana DNR property, pay special attention to the limitations listed in Section 4-(4) and 4-(5) stating a maximum of 2 cache placement licenses per person at any given time on a particular property and a total maximum number of caches on a single IDNR property of either 25 or the total acreage of the property divided by 200 acres (whichever is less). This can be tough for cache reviewers to monitor, so we need to self police as best we can. Cache saturation has caused problems in the past and really shouldn't have based on these rules.

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2

×
×
  • Create New...