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Having sold my GPS last year I have been away from caching for quite a few months. Today I decided to have another go but this time with my new iPhone and the Groundspeak app. It was surprisingly easy to use and in conjunction with Memory Map proved an interesting morning. Wishing to see what had been happening while I was away I have been browsing the UK forum. Not too much has changed here has it? The usual moans and groans and harmless silliness. However apart from all the site changes since I was here I have noticed a couple of fundamental shifts in Geocaching.

 

Probably the main one is the apparent encouragement of "power trails". These seem to abound now. When I was reviewing one of the things we UK reviewers were admonished for was allowing an occasional series in the UK while they were absolutely forbidden in the USA. Nowadays it seems to be de rigeur to place a series of film pots in bland locations just to provide number hounds with their fix. When did this change in attitude take place?

 

The other thing I read about was this business of disallowing "urban caches" where the cache might be overlooked. What is the point of that? Ever since I started caching in 2001 I have hunted caches that have been overlooked to a greater or lesser extent. Indeed today I attempted a number which were VERY overlooked. I can't imagine how ANY cache in a town or city can not be overlooked.

 

I guess it was inevitable that the free and easy attitude we used to enjoy has been driven out of the sport now that it has become such a mainstream commercial activity. Shame really, it was fun while it lasted.

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I'm never quite sure what the deal is with this whole "overlooked" notion.

 

Certainly someone apparently acting furtively, retrieving and replacing boxes from unusual locations could easily be misconstrued so in that basis it makes as much sense as discouraging caches too near primary schools and the like. That said you are quite right in that just about anywhere in any city is going to be overlooked by something, even if only a steady stream of muggles passing by.

 

But in this age of paranoia all it takes is a single misunderstanding and the focus shifts onto making sure "this never happens again".

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Urban caches are NOT disallowed. There is however, an urban guideline on the GAGB website aimed to minimise the chances of a second Whetherby for locations that are overlooked.

You can review them here: http://gagb.co.uk/what-is-geocaching/cache-guidelines/#item6

 

Andy

Red Duster

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

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Urban caches are NOT disallowed. There is however, an urban guideline on the GAGB website aimed to minimise the chances of a second Whetherby for locations that are overlooked.

You can review them here: http://gagb.co.uk/what-is-geocaching/cache-guidelines/#item6

 

Andy

Red Duster

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

Thanks for the reply Andy although looking at this "Guideline" it appears ridiculous to me. I quote:

Caches should be hidden so as to minimise the chance of security alerts, particularly where there is a liklihood of finders being considered suspicious for example where a cache is overlooked by houses / offices / shops / people.

When a cache is placed in an overlooked location, the cache owner should help finders avoid being considered suspicious by offering a clear and unambiguous hint on how to retrieve the cache quickly.

By the very nature of a cache in a town/city it will almost certainly be overlooked. That is part of the challenge of an urban cache and has been for the 11 years I've been in this game. Forgive me but it is fatuous to suggest that it is possible to hunt for such caches without looking suspicious. And where is the challenge if every single overlooked cache has to have a hint "spoon feeding" cachers precise instructions on how to find it? Sorry but this is not caching as I know it. Obviously I am not cut out for this game any more if this is what it has become.

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By the very nature of a cache in a town/city it will almost certainly be overlooked.

I think it is inappropriate to place a cache, for example, in a residential street in full view from the windows of the houses. It is too likely to cause some alarm or concern to an observer.

 

I disagree that all places in a town will almost certainly be overlooked - there are plenty of places that aren't, and they are usually nicer places with better hiding places too.

 

Rgds, Andy

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I disagree that all places in a town will almost certainly be overlooked - there are plenty of places that aren't, and they are usually nicer places with better hiding places too.

I take your point Andy, you are quite right. However I still think this new guideline takes something away from the game. Perhaps if I start caching again I'll stick to countryside caches.

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I disagree that all places in a town will almost certainly be overlooked - there are plenty of places that aren't, and they are usually nicer places with better hiding places too.

I take your point Andy, you are quite right. However I still think this new guideline takes something away from the game. Perhaps if I start caching again I'll stick to countryside caches.

 

Hi Newbie

You could take in a countryside 'Power Trail'. Most CO's set them on good rural walks with plenty to entertain walkers, families etc and there are often a variety of different containers and types of hides. Check out one of them and then report back whether you think they are a good development or a bad one.

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Hi Hornet,

The guideline is a GAGB guideline. If you disagree with it, should you not post this thread in their forum? :unsure:

 

If its a GAGB guideline and if comments should be posted on their website (and by inference not here) then its got nothing to do with Groundspeak and should not affect how and where cachers place their caches?

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Today I decided to have another go but this time with my new iPhone and the Groundspeak app. It was surprisingly easy to use and in conjunction with Memory Map proved an interesting morning.

 

I have Memory Map (on PC and PDA). I'm about to inherit ladysolly's old iPhone, and I've been thinking that it might make a good caching PDA. It has built-in GPS (and I plan not to use it for telephony, so it won't get confused by phone mast info) which I would guess is likely to be as good/accurate as any other GPS (why wouldn't it be?). But I've read reviews of Memory Map on the iPhone which suggests that it's not good. And I do want to use Memory Map, because I have all the maps already (I'm hoping that I can use those same maps).

 

Could you explain to me how exactly you're making use of the iPhone? Thanks.

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If it is enforced on GC then it's a gc rule. As I'm not a gagb member, therefore not bound by their rules, does that mean I can list a cache on GC ignoring this rule?

 

If the answer is no please don't treat us as idiots.

 

Do you have a cache to place/list that may contravene this guideline/rule? If you do then no doubt the reviewers will interpret each case on its merits and do the best to accomodate your requirements.

 

If it is in a position that is overlooked by a home/business to the extent that it could cause problems etc for those home/business owners and the cachers hunting for it I hope it is disallowed because I think that there are so many better places to hide a cache for everyones enjoyment.

 

No one will treat you like an idiot as long as you dont act like one.

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Adding a note to the cache page does not stop people searching for a cache or looking suspicous, it's quite frankly a ridiculous and pointless rule.

 

However, my issue was not the rule itself but the claim from a GC reviewer that this is a GAGB rule when it is quite clear that the rule is applied to all cachers within the UK listing caches on GC. It's this kind of stupidity that stops me listing any cache here these days.

 

For a reviewer to claim the rule is GAGB and should be argued on thier site while at the same time strictly applying the same rule is treating us as idiots.

Edited by Icenians
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And where is the challenge if every single overlooked cache has to have a hint "spoon feeding" cachers precise instructions on how to find it? Sorry but this is not caching as I know it. Obviously I am not cut out for this game any more if this is what it has become.

 

Hi Peter, welcome back. It's up to you of course if you read the hint or not, so you can make it as easy or as difficult as you like. I prefer to read a hint if I'm going to draw attention to myself, and if I see an accurate hint when I feel like I should give up in fear of being approached, I'm very grateful.

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Having sold my GPS last year I have been away from caching for quite a few months. Today I decided to have another go but this time with my new iPhone and the Groundspeak app. ...

 

... When did this change in attitude take place?

 

 

Hi Peter, nice to hear from you again

 

I think the change in attitude came when manufacturers started putting GPS in mobile phones and users started seeing what else they could do with their phones. Suddenly there were hundreds more people who were able to start geocaching without the need for investment in a dedicated GPS unit.

 

Bob

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Today I decided to have another go but this time with my new iPhone and the Groundspeak app. It was surprisingly easy to use and in conjunction with Memory Map proved an interesting morning.

 

I have Memory Map (on PC and PDA). I'm about to inherit ladysolly's old iPhone, and I've been thinking that it might make a good caching PDA. It has built-in GPS (and I plan not to use it for telephony, so it won't get confused by phone mast info) which I would guess is likely to be as good/accurate as any other GPS (why wouldn't it be?). But I've read reviews of Memory Map on the iPhone which suggests that it's not good. And I do want to use Memory Map, because I have all the maps already (I'm hoping that I can use those same maps).

 

Could you explain to me how exactly you're making use of the iPhone? Thanks.

Firstly, the iPhone GPSr. "I would guess is likely to be as good/accurate as any other GPS (why wouldn't it be?)". All GPSrs vary in performance, and those on iPhones up to and including the 3GS are extremely poor. From the iPhone 4 onwards they are better.

 

Memory Map. They do 2 versions for the iPhone - to use your old maps you need to get the paid for version, about £20.00 - the free version only works with maps you buy on the iPhone. The map display is excellent. You can load a GPX file and have the flags show on the map. BUT. The major problem for geocachers is that you can't link the locations to CacheMate, or to an HTML file. So it's good for walking but not much good for geocaching.

 

Rgds, Andy

Edited by Amberel
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Sounds just like the problem with the Android version. To use my existing maps I have to activate a campatibility mode (£70 ish) and as you say GPX file shows a flag but no way of linking to anything. Due to the fact that Android & iPhones do not sync in the way that a PDA or Windows phone does you can export the data straight from Memory Map.

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Sounds just like the problem with the Android version. To use my existing maps I have to activate a campatibility mode (£70 ish) and as you say GPX file shows a flag but no way of linking to anything. Due to the fact that Android & iPhones do not sync in the way that a PDA or Windows phone does you can export the data straight from Memory Map.

 

So I can't send data (meaning the "overlay data") from the PC version to the iPhone app? That would make it pretty useless, for me.

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Sounds just like the problem with the Android version. To use my existing maps I have to activate a campatibility mode (£70 ish) and as you say GPX file shows a flag but no way of linking to anything. Due to the fact that Android & iPhones do not sync in the way that a PDA or Windows phone does you can export the data straight from Memory Map.

 

So I can't send data (meaning the "overlay data") from the PC version to the iPhone app? That would make it pretty useless, for me.

Not entirely sure what you mean by "overay data". When you connect the iPhone to your PC it brings up iTunes, which acts rather like ActiveSync. But you can't browse the iPhone directory tree like you can with Explorer. All you can do is copy files to and from the MemoryMap application. It recognises the old map files and GPX files.

 

When you tap a waypoint you can look at the "details". You have the name, the position, a link, and a "notes" field.

 

On my GSAK exported GPX the name is the "short name" generated by GSAK. The position is obvious.

 

The link is obvious - you can use it to open Safari at the cache page. Except you can't if you're not using the phone for telephony. And in practice, you can't very often do it if you have an iPhone 3 or 3GS because the reception is so poor that mostly you're out of network coverage when caching. I recently got a 4S and the improvement in network coverage has to be experienced to be believed - for the first time since getting an iPhone I can reasonably reliably get my email while caching :lol: .

 

The notes field holds the full cache name - except it is too small to see most names in full. I guess you could put the hint in there, and if it was just "tree" it would fit in the available space - just.

 

So it's pretty minimal. On the PPC I used to link MM to CacheMate. But iPhone apps are not able to invoke or talk to each other, so that won't happen. And over the last couple of years MM have made no move to improve the facilities in the app itself.

 

I have wondered if it would be possible to download html files to the iPhone and link to them, but if it is possible I don't know how to do it.

 

So, you would think there must be loads of potential, but in practice it's not much use for caching at all.

 

Rgds, Andy

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I disagree that all places in a town will almost certainly be overlooked - there are plenty of places that aren't, and they are usually nicer places with better hiding places too.

I take your point Andy, you are quite right. However I still think this new guideline takes something away from the game. Perhaps if I start caching again I'll stick to countryside caches.

 

Hi Newbie

You could take in a countryside 'Power Trail'. Most CO's set them on good rural walks with plenty to entertain walkers, families etc and there are often a variety of different containers and types of hides. Check out one of them and then report back whether you think they are a good development or a bad one.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Welcome back Newbie, if you need any tips feel free to ask :P:lol::P

 

Hi Hornet,

The guideline is a GAGB guideline. If you disagree with it, should you not post this thread in their forum? :unsure:

 

If its a GAGB guideline and if comments should be posted on their website (and by inference not here) then its got nothing to do with Groundspeak and should not affect how and where cachers place their caches?

A very good point Nick. We'll enforce this rule, but you can't discuss it here!! At least Red Duster used the correct smiley, the 'unsure' one! <_<

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Probably the main one is the apparent encouragement of "power trails". These seem to abound now. When I was reviewing one of the things we UK reviewers were admonished for was allowing an occasional series in the UK while they were absolutely forbidden in the USA. Nowadays it seems to be de rigeur to place a series of film pots in bland locations just to provide number hounds with their fix. When did this change in attitude take place?

There's no change fundamentally to how things were five years ago. But nowadays there are so many more caches that you have to go through a selection process before leaving home; it's no good just listing all the nearest caches and going out to find them because you're likely to find too many unsuitable ones for that day.

 

Groundspeak have been floundering around for the last few years and haven't realised the potential of what they helped get going. I think that their muddled approach has left us with a website that requires some skills to clumsily operate, when it could have been so much simpler and neater. They haven't recognised that with the growth in cache numbers there has also been a growth in sub-games (for instance numbers collecting, novel hides, elaborate puzzles, challenges).

 

For instance; they came up with the idea of icons for different cache types. Brilliant; but that's been thrown away as a concept when it could have been used to everyone's advantage. For instance, you mention power trails. Groundspeak should have noticed that many people like power trails (at least some of the time), but that individual caches in these trails are generally weak when approached as stand-alones. Had these been defined as power-trail caches with their own icon, they'd be collectable and people would find them easier to understand (and avoid, where necessary). You could have eliminated (or highlighted) all power-trail caches from your view of a list of caches with a simple filter. The same with a "solve at home" mystery cache, or a "creative hide" traditional (there are other types). You probably use a similar concept in Waymarking where you don't want to see a category that you aren't interested in; you simply make it disappear.

 

Another example; solve-at-home mystery caches are great, but after all this time we still rely on third-party coordinate-checking software to confirm that we have a correct answer before leaving home. Had a checker been built-in, it could have been designed in a user-friendly and entertaining way; rather than just entering the derived coordinates (for instance) there could be a code word to input, or a grid to complete.

 

And how about the favourite "series plus bonus"? It still requires the bonus to be a mystery cache, with only a manual link to the series. Surely it could have been possible to link the caches in some cool way to the final (as an option). That would cover the "challenge" cache in many cases, where you have to log a certain set of caches to qualify for the final (Little Quest is an example). Much nicer if the cache automatically "unlocks" as soon as you meet the requirement, and with a different icon the cache becomes more collectable.

 

Groundspeak missed a trick when they brought in Waymarking and then ignored it. They should have moved geocaching to Waymarking so that both sites were merged, and then had geocaches as a category. Then, sub-categories would be cache types (Traditional, Multi etc.), and other categories according to the sub-game a cache is most suited to (trails, numbers, solve-at-home, scenic, adventure and so on). A cache could be in one or more of these categories.

Obviously you'd still be able to list all caches in an area, but you'd also be able to eliminate everything but trails (if that's what you're interested in that day), or focus on scenic caches, or list all the puzzles for home solving. Or see all the caches that form part of a challenge cache, and be able to view the relevant challenges.

 

Seems like a lot of random suggestions, I know, but it's only what you have to do yourself to plan a good day out caching. Unfortunately Groundspeak saw fit to focus on a couple of half-baked projects which give us things that few seem bothered about (and fewer asked for), and leave us to struggle on with the website. They have had a half-hearted attempt to improve things (for instance attributes and favourites) but they could have gone so much further.

It all seems like a missed opportunity to me.

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Hi Hornet,

The guideline is a GAGB guideline. If you disagree with it, should you not post this thread in their forum? :unsure:

Sorry but I was under the impression that Groundspeak reviewers such as yourself were instrumental in getting this rule implemented with GAGB's cooperation. If this is not the case then I apologise for bringing it up here. There's only so much history I can digest from a relatively quick scan through this forum.

 

If the GAGB guideline isn't used by yourselves when reviewing Groundspeak caches, and it was Groundspeak caches I was looking for this weekend, hence my decision to post here rather than GAGB.

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Today I decided to have another go but this time with my new iPhone and the Groundspeak app. It was surprisingly easy to use and in conjunction with Memory Map proved an interesting morning.

 

I have Memory Map (on PC and PDA). I'm about to inherit ladysolly's old iPhone, and I've been thinking that it might make a good caching PDA. It has built-in GPS (and I plan not to use it for telephony, so it won't get confused by phone mast info) which I would guess is likely to be as good/accurate as any other GPS (why wouldn't it be?). But I've read reviews of Memory Map on the iPhone which suggests that it's not good. And I do want to use Memory Map, because I have all the maps already (I'm hoping that I can use those same maps).

 

Could you explain to me how exactly you're making use of the iPhone? Thanks.

Surely, I'll try.

 

First off it's the version that lets me use my existing extensive map library ;) If you look in your App list in iTunes for MM you have the option to easily copy maps from your PC to your iPhone. No conversion is needed, it just works.

 

Next I loaded a set of local caches into my PC version in the normal way. I could easily delete any I didn't want and add a couple of extra waypoints manually. To put them all into the phone I saved the overlay file as a gpx and then copied it to the iPhone in the same way I copied the maps.

 

When out in the field (well actually mostly around town!) I had the Groundspeak app running with all the cache details, hint, logs etc and the "Navigate to" compass pointing to the cache. I then switched into Memory Map and could plot my route to the vicinity of the cache in Memory Map just like the old days when I had it on my PDA. It was a matter of a couple of clicks to swap back and forth between them. MM also lets you navigate to a selected waypoint so I could have used that instead of the Geocaching app if I'd wanted to.

 

As for accuracy, the iPhone 4S seems to be pretty good, I did manage to find caches with the same ease as when I used my 60CSX.

 

I'm no expert with the iPhone and this was my first try but it seemed to be a pretty good option if you already own an iPhone.

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Thanks also for the other suggestions and comments. The website has changed a lot and there seem to be all sorts of new "bells and whistles" now. I don't know if I like or will use many of them but as has been suggested, if there's something I don't like I can ignore it.

 

Having said that, I still don't like the idea of putting out lots of film pots in the wilds of the countryside when "proper" full sized caches could be deployed. Maybe that's me but I will be mentioning it in my logs if/when I come across them. After all I was the oroginal G.O.G :ph34r:

 

It's nice to see many of my old caching acquaintances are still around, maybe I'll drop in here more often. :)

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Sounds just like the problem with the Android version. To use my existing maps I have to activate a campatibility mode (£70 ish) and as you say GPX file shows a flag but no way of linking to anything. Due to the fact that Android & iPhones do not sync in the way that a PDA or Windows phone does you can export the data straight from Memory Map.

Google "MM Tracker", there's a free and paid version, gets good reviews...

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Good to see you back in the neighbourhood Peter, and you're certainly right, things ain't what they used to be :(.

Hey, does that mean I'm turning into a GOG?

 

Google "MM Tracker", there's a free and paid version, gets good reviews...

Excellent app, thanks for pointing me to it :).

Could retire my old iPaq TravelMate now if battery life was a bit better

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Having sold my GPS last year I have been away from caching for quite a few months. Today I decided to have another go but this time with my new iPhone and the Groundspeak app. It was surprisingly easy to use and in conjunction with Memory Map proved an interesting morning. Wishing to see what had been happening while I was away I have been browsing the UK forum. Not too much has changed here has it? The usual moans and groans and harmless silliness. However apart from all the site changes since I was here I have noticed a couple of fundamental shifts in Geocaching.

 

Probably the main one is the apparent encouragement of "power trails". These seem to abound now. When I was reviewing one of the things we UK reviewers were admonished for was allowing an occasional series in the UK while they were absolutely forbidden in the USA. Nowadays it seems to be de rigeur to place a series of film pots in bland locations just to provide number hounds with their fix. When did this change in attitude take place?

 

The other thing I read about was this business of disallowing "urban caches" where the cache might be overlooked. What is the point of that? Ever since I started caching in 2001 I have hunted caches that have been overlooked to a greater or lesser extent. Indeed today I attempted a number which were VERY overlooked. I can't imagine how ANY cache in a town or city can not be overlooked.

 

I guess it was inevitable that the free and easy attitude we used to enjoy has been driven out of the sport now that it has become such a mainstream commercial activity. Shame really, it was fun while it lasted.

 

I think Geocaching today is tending to get out of control. What started off as a new American game has snowballed into a world wide activity. I have not been caching very long so I am not sure of the set up so please feel free to correct anything I am about to say. It seems that the game is controlled by a company, Groundspeak, who act along the lines of a dictatorship rather than a democracy. Are there any elected members of the “Club” who can influence the way in which the came is played?

The game started with someone placing a cache the object of which was to find it using a GPS receiver but it has developed into various sub games and that is where, I think, it is getting out of control. One of these sub games is scoring cache finds which may cause cache quality to lower. I share The Hornet's opinion that there are many poorly placed caches around today which surely needs some regulation. I must add that there are also some excellent caches around and the game of “hide and seek” has stood the test of time but seems to be in danger of becoming tainted by poor regulation.

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It seems that the game is controlled by a company, Groundspeak, who act along the lines of a dictatorship rather than a democracy.

That's not quite true. Groundspeak operate one website where geocaches are listed (geocaching.com), there are several other sites that also list geocaches (although they are all much smaller than geocaching.com), and there's nothing to stop anyone else creating another listing site if they wish.

 

As Groundspeak own geocaching.com it's reasonable that they controll how geocaching.com is run, but they can't control how the game operates on other listing sites. As for running geocaching.com democratically, you wouldn't expect Barclays Bank to operate democratically so why should Groundspeak be any different?

 

The choice is, if you don't like the way Groundspeak do it you can use one of the other listing sites instead (as many people in the past have done).

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It seems that the game is controlled by a company, Groundspeak, who act along the lines of a dictatorship rather than a democracy.

That's not quite true. Groundspeak operate one website where geocaches are listed (geocaching.com), there are several other sites that also list geocaches (although they are all much smaller than geocaching.com), and there's nothing to stop anyone else creating another listing site if they wish.

 

As Groundspeak own geocaching.com it's reasonable that they controll how geocaching.com is run, but they can't control how the game operates on other listing sites. As for running geocaching.com democratically, you wouldn't expect Barclays Bank to operate democratically so why should Groundspeak be any different?

 

The choice is, if you don't like the way Groundspeak do it you can use one of the other listing sites instead (as many people in the past have done).

 

I was not aware that there were other geocache listing sites. Can you be more specific? Is Barclays Bank into any sort of sport? I suppose RBS does support rugby but I don't think they have any say in how the game is played. Are there any other games/sports that are owned by a company?

The problem is that if you don't like the way Groundspeak do things you can't change it. I suppose GAGB is the closest thing we have to a local "Geocaching Committee" but as someone said earlier in this discussion anything GAGB says does not apply to the Groundspeak game.

What can you do about a poor quality cache? There is a cache in my area which is at a T junction on narrow roads. There is no parking close to the cache and at the cache site you can only get your car half way off the road. Unless you have an interest in T junctions there is no reason I can see for placing the cache at this spot except for a place to put a cache. I don't know what Groundspeak's opinion of such caches are. I suspect they just don't know about them, but even if they did know, would they do anything? These poor quality caches are being placed every day and I think if allowed to continue will bring down the standard of the game.

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I was not aware that there were other geocache listing sites. Can you be more specific?

 

There are several listed here :-

 

http://gagb.co.uk/what-is-the-gagb/geocaching-links/

 

Is Barclays Bank into any sort of sport?

 

Football - the Barclays Premier League, but that's irrelevant, my point being you have no say in how other companies run their business so why should you expect to have a say in how Groundspeak runs their business?

Edited by MartyBartfast
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What can you do about a poor quality cache?

 

If that's your opinion, ignore it. Others will probably decide to find it, for their own reasons.

 

There is a cache in my area which is at a T junction on narrow roads. There is no parking close to the cache and at the cache site you can only get your car half way off the road. Unless you have an interest in T junctions there is no reason I can see for placing the cache at this spot except for a place to put a cache.

 

That seems reason enough for some people.

 

 

I don't know what Groundspeak's opinion of such caches are. I suspect they just don't know about them, but even if they did know, would they do anything? These poor quality caches are being placed every day and I think if allowed to continue will bring down the standard of the game.

 

Every cache location is checked (on maps) by one of the Groundspeak reviewers - They know where they are being placed. The reviewers will all have their own personal opinions about the caches that they review and publish but they don't get to arbitrate on what's "good" or "bad".

 

(Can you imagine the problems that would ensue if they did?)

 

These days, you just have to be very selective in what you decide to hunt. :)

 

 

MrsB

Edited by The Blorenges
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It seems that the game is controlled by a company, Groundspeak, who act along the lines of a dictatorship rather than a democracy.

Actually, they don't operate either as a dictatorship or as a democracy, they act as a commercial company, which is what they are. In this country the directors of companies are required to act in the best interests of their shareholders, and it's quite likely to be the same in the States.

 

Companies are not required to act in the best interests of their customers (i.e. us). In many cases they will, because the interests of customers and shareholders often overlap - a well run business usually wants most of its customers to be sufficiently happy so they continue being customers, so they contribute to the profitability of the company for the benefit of the shareholders who have invested their money in the company. This is not a cynical view, it is how the system is intended to work.

 

Of the other sites, TerraCaching is also a commercial company, and also American. So is opencaching.com, on both counts - it is wholly owned by Garmin who use it to promote geocaching in order to sell more GPSrs. NaviCache is, as far as I know, non-profit making, but is also US based.

 

opencaching.org.uk is both a UK based listing site, and is non profit making, indeed, it must be loss making for the chap who hosts the site. It is the nearest thing to what you appear to wish for, in that it is run by geocachers for the primary benefit of geocachers - there are no shareholders. It's the nearest thing to a democratic listing site you will find - there is a three man committee (of which I am one) with elections every year. If a user of the site raises any matter with us we try and resolve it for the maximum benefit of geocaching, not for the non-existent shareholders, and if any user sees things differently to us they are free to stand for election.

 

BUT. Opencaching.org.uk lists a TINY number of caches compared to Groundspeak. While I am an enthusiastic proponent I still use Groundspeak extensively because I would soon run out of caches to find if I used only the minority sites.

 

Rgds, Andy

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I don't have a problem with paying £20 per year as part of the cost of geocaching, a sum that is utterly dwarfed by my petrol bill. And I don't have a problem with BP and Shell making a profit out of supplying me with petrol. As long as I get a good service, I will continue to purchase those services. If the service deteriorates badly, or if someone else offers a much superior service, I'll consider taking my £20 elsewhere.

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GC area a for profit organisation http://www.sos.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?ubi=602079037 who hold a "virtual" monopoly on cache listings in the world.

 

Could you explain this more fully? The link just seems to list the details of Groundspeak which seems reasonable. You say that they hold a virtual monopoly on listing everywhere. Do you think that is a good thing? Are you satisfied with Groundspeak's geocaching and if not what changes would you like to see. Actually I think Groundspeak asked those very questions a few months ago and I answered that I was quite happy with everything. I am now questioning my response a wee bit.

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It seems that the game is controlled by a company, Groundspeak, who act along the lines of a dictatorship rather than a democracy.

Actually, they don't operate either as a dictatorship or as a democracy, they act as a commercial company, which is what they are. In this country the directors of companies are required to act in the best interests of their shareholders, and it's quite likely to be the same in the States.

 

Companies are not required to act in the best interests of their customers (i.e. us). In many cases they will, because the interests of customers and shareholders often overlap - a well run business usually wants most of its customers to be sufficiently happy so they continue being customers, so they contribute to the profitability of the company for the benefit of the shareholders who have invested their money in the company. This is not a cynical view, it is how the system is intended to work.

 

Of the other sites, TerraCaching is also a commercial company, and also American. So is opencaching.com, on both counts - it is wholly owned by Garmin who use it to promote geocaching in order to sell more GPSrs. NaviCache is, as far as I know, non-profit making, but is also US based.

 

opencaching.org.uk is both a UK based listing site, and is non profit making, indeed, it must be loss making for the chap who hosts the site. It is the nearest thing to what you appear to wish for, in that it is run by geocachers for the primary benefit of geocachers - there are no shareholders. It's the nearest thing to a democratic listing site you will find - there is a three man committee (of which I am one) with elections every year. If a user of the site raises any matter with us we try and resolve it for the maximum benefit of geocaching, not for the non-existent shareholders, and if any user sees things differently to us they are free to stand for election.

 

BUT. Opencaching.org.uk lists a TINY number of caches compared to Groundspeak. While I am an enthusiastic proponent I still use Groundspeak extensively because I would soon run out of caches to find if I used only the minority sites.

 

Rgds, Andy

 

I like the idea of Opencaching and will certainly look into it in more detail. From the brief look I had at your website I notice that there are not many caches in Scotland.

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It seems that the game is controlled by a company, Groundspeak, who act along the lines of a dictatorship rather than a democracy.

That's not quite true. Groundspeak operate one website where geocaches are listed (geocaching.com), there are several other sites that also list geocaches (although they are all much smaller than geocaching.com), and there's nothing to stop anyone else creating another listing site if they wish.

 

As Groundspeak own geocaching.com it's reasonable that they controll how geocaching.com is run, but they can't control how the game operates on other listing sites. As for running geocaching.com democratically, you wouldn't expect Barclays Bank to operate democratically so why should Groundspeak be any different?

 

The choice is, if you don't like the way Groundspeak do it you can use one of the other listing sites instead (as many people in the past have done).

 

I was not aware that there were other geocache listing sites. Can you be more specific? Is Barclays Bank into any sort of sport? I suppose RBS does support rugby but I don't think they have any say in how the game is played. Are there any other games/sports that are owned by a company?

The problem is that if you don't like the way Groundspeak do things you can't change it. I suppose GAGB is the closest thing we have to a local "Geocaching Committee" but as someone said earlier in this discussion anything GAGB says does not apply to the Groundspeak game.

What can you do about a poor quality cache? There is a cache in my area which is at a T junction on narrow roads. There is no parking close to the cache and at the cache site you can only get your car half way off the road. Unless you have an interest in T junctions there is no reason I can see for placing the cache at this spot except for a place to put a cache. I don't know what Groundspeak's opinion of such caches are. I suspect they just don't know about them, but even if they did know, would they do anything? These poor quality caches are being placed every day and I think if allowed to continue will bring down the standard of the game.

 

I share your views about the percieved 'lack of quality' with some cache types/placements however little is going to change if cache finders do not log honest and constructive feedback regarding the cache placement.

You don't seem to be logging any of your finds so your argument seems rather hypocrytical.

Of course, this could be a 'sockpuppet' account so I fear that many of your previous forum questions you probably know the answer to anyway.

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I'm a huge supporter of open source and free projects - having done many myself and contributed to more over 25 years of coding.

 

I love the idea of opencaching and feel good that a workable alternative is there. I applaud those involved, and living in the Devon hotspot I have found a few and the quality of them has been consistently higher than gc.com caches in terms of cache items and maintenance (especially Lord Darcy's). But, sadly, they don't get the visits. Months or even years between visits don't encourage me to list mine there, and I think listing on both sites is a bit dodgy as I know from my garmin that it'll choose one or the other to log as a find in field notes and that means I don't "find" on the other as I don't notice it's on both - so it won't get logged on both.

 

As for gc.com - actually the very first website I have ever paid a subscription to, despite having been actively involved on and in the internet since the mid 90's. The company seems to be well run (so far!) and although some egos surface occasionally, generally professional. The site itself is well coded, and although the interface has the feel of something that has evolved ad-hoc and probably due for an overhaul to make it more logical, I can imagine the outcry if it was radically redesigned... (Although I do look forwards to beta.geocaching.com !)

 

Will I renew? Yes, almost certainly. The ability to just shovel thousands on GPX's onto my oregon is very nice. Notifies also very nice. The maps are brilliant and although it takes a long time to learn how best to use the site, it is all there. Groundspeak do this thing well and if it costs some money to achieve that, so be it. You CAN use the site for free and that balance between free and features is cleverly balanced.

 

But again, I'm very glad oc.org.uk is there as an alternative. An entire hobby for tens or even hundreds of thousands geared around one website is not robust and if gc.com ever did go down and was unable to continue for some reason, it's good to know an alternative is there.

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GC area a for profit organisation

And paying Membership is tacit agreement to what they do.

 

No its not !! can you imagine a world where buying stuff gives the seller your tacit agreement to do what they do

 

You are buying a service they offer in my case pocket queries.

 

edit cause quoting failed me !

Edited by markandlynn
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Hi Hornet,

The guideline is a GAGB guideline. If you disagree with it, should you not post this thread in their forum? :unsure:

 

A true point but as has been mentioned if you have adopted this rule then it needs to be discussed on your forums.

 

Oh and a little bird suggested to me that it was a Groundspeak reviewer that was originally approached by the police and decided that he felt the guidelines be negotiated by the GAGB and not himself. If this happened then the exact reasons behind it are interesting. Either way it's a matter for your forum don't you think?

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GC area a for profit organisation

And paying Membership is tacit agreement to what they do.

 

No its not !! can you imagine a world where buying stuff gives the seller your tacit agreement to do what they do

 

You are buying a service they offer in my case pocket queries.

 

edit cause quoting failed me !

Membership

"Support the development and maintenance of the Geocaching.com site."

 

Everything you buy, you make a decision.

Local or imported veg.

Battery or Free-Range eggs.

Organic or Intense food.

 

Anybody remember the Benetton adverts.

 

Who buys Fur coats nowadays.

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GC area a for profit organisation

And paying Membership is tacit agreement to what they do.

 

No its not !! can you imagine a world where buying stuff gives the seller your tacit agreement to do what they do

 

You are buying a service they offer in my case pocket queries.

 

edit cause quoting failed me !

Membership

"Support the development and maintenance of the Geocaching.com site."

 

Everything you buy, you make a decision.

Local or imported veg.

Battery or Free-Range eggs.

Organic or Intense food.

 

Anybody remember the Benetton adverts.

 

Who buys Fur coats nowadays.

I'm really not sure what your point is, but subscribing to Groundspeak does not mean you agree with everything they do - it just means that you think the benefits of Premium membership are worth the price.

 

There are quite a lot of Groundspeak policies and actions I disagree with, but things would have to get quite a lot worse before I stopped subscribing :lol: .

 

Rgds, Andy

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