How do I get this cache off my lawn!

[+Quest Master]

This website is great for geocachers but not so friendly to other persons. My main concern right now is that a park manager, landowner, or other concerned person will find it difficult to contact admin or a cache owner to address issues relating to a particular cache or make a request that a cache listing should be removed. I am concerned about this because I have to do a presentation about geocaching to the members of the Pennsylvania Recreation and Park Society at their annual conference in March. I realize that this is already being handled by geocaching.com but I do not think that the process is as simple and straightforward as it should be. I imagined myself to be someone who is using the site for the first time and fairly tried navigating from the main page to a place where I could request that a cache listing should be removed and I was pretty much stumped. I would be pretty frustrated and/or angry at geocaching if I was a landowner or park ranger and had to deal with this. I am suggesting that an ounce of prevention is probably going to be worth more than a pound of cure. What is bad for them is ultimately going to be bad for us. They make the rules that we will have to follow. I would like to tell the people at the conference that they can just go to the website if they ever have any questions or concerns or problems with a cache in their park but right now that just isn’t the case. I offer the following suggestions for how this problem might be addressed.

 

1. Put a link on the main page for this purpose or at least make the “contact us” bigger.

 

2. Update the “contact us” page to include instructions for persons who have a problem with a cache.

 

3. Make it possible to contact cache owners without signing up for geocaching.com account.

 

4. Create a section on this site where regulations pertaining to geocaching in specific areas could be posted. I am thinking that something like a read-only discussion board moderated by volunteers and organized by state might work pretty well.

 

At least some of this stuff shouldn’t be too hard to implement, should it?

 

Any other ideas?

 

Johnny

[+Mopar]

All but one sound resonable to me.

quote:

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3. Make it possible to contact cache owners without signing up for geocaching.com account.

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I see this as WAY to open for abuse. Spammers and troublemakers would also be able to email members with very little accountability. GC.com has done a fantastic job keeping us safe from spam and harrassing emails, lets keep it that way.

I think a more obvious contact link would be a good thing.

Also including contact info with the cache is a help. The standard "you found it" sheet includes the website contact info. I include a special email address I set up just for this on the sheet, on the cache, and on the 1st page of the log book. It's a free yahoo account that is used for nothing but cache placement. I use yahoo's vacation response and filters to create automated responses if anyone emails it so I don't need to constantly check it. If someone from geocaching.com or Groundspeak were to email me, they get a response that includes my personal email, my GC account info, and and other emergency contact info. Anyone else emails it, they get a autoresponse detailing how to contact me thru the site, and how to contact the site admins if it is an emergency. It also lets them know that the admins can access my personal info thru that email address in an emergency. I think this gives a fairly resonable way to handle every situation, without revealing anything too personal to other cachers or worse, to someone plundering the cache.

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

[+sbell111]

Doot! I agree with that Mopar guy again.

 

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

[+Mopar]

quote:

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Originally posted by sbell111:

Doot! I agree with that Mopar guy again.

---

Scary, huh?

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

[+BrownMule & Jackrabbit]

I am a public lands manager and once someone obtains the required permission to hide a cache I already have their personal information and can contact them directly if a problem arises. The cache hider can take care of archiving or whatever themselves. There is no need for the land owner to even go to the Geocaching.com page if cache hiders play by the rules and contact the land owners first. What you are asking is just another way to relieve cache hiders from their responsibility to communicate with the land owners and managers. This is not Geocaching.com responsibility even though they get saddled with it often.

 

_________________________________________________________

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

[+Quest Master]

The "Problem" is that not all cache owners will be as responsible as they should be and obtain permission first. I expect that geocaching.com does not have the resouces to screen every cache to ensure that permission has been obtained by the proper authority. In such cases the public lands manager or property owner would not even have any contact information other than that which might be found in the cache or on the cache description page. I'll wager that the chances are pretty good that they will have to go through the website to contact the person responsible for the cache or to make a request that the listing be removed. I am not asking geocaching.com to relieve anyone of their responsibilty to get permission first and properly maintain their cache. On the contrary, I am trying to make cache owners more accountable. I, too, regret that geocaching.com will sometimes have to deal with this kind of a problem but we cannot deny that it exists.

 

Johnny

[+BrownMule & Jackrabbit]

quote:

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Originally posted by Quest Master:

The "Problem" is that not all cache owners will be as responsible as they should be and obtain permission first.

Johnny

---

 

I hear ya on that one. It would still be better for Geocaching.com to require proof of permission up from rather than to deal with an angry land owner or manager. I think each cache hider should have to provide Geocaching.com with the name and title and possibly phone number of the permission granter. Your idea is certainly the second best choice in my opinion if Geocaching.com is not going to require proof of permission. Don't get me wrong I agree with you that it is a must that communications be seamless between the land manager and the Geocaching community.

 

_________________________________________________________

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

[+Renegade Knight]

It would be too cumbersome for geocaching.com to have to verify each cache. I think having land mangers start accounts is fine. As a matter of fact, land manager types should seriously consider placing official agency caches. It would control access, set valid locations and direct traffic in their lands. Consider it a management tool.

 

Wherever you go there you are.

[+The Leprechauns]

Quest Master, I agree with all your ideas except, like some others, opening us up to the risk of spam through easier access to e-mail.

 

I'm writing especially in support of having an area on the site dedicated to permission issues and land manager policies. Whether it's a forum or a read-only area, I don't much care.

 

See this thread that I started last July... and there were others who suggested it earlier. In my thread, Jeremy seemed receptive to building a new area of the site with maps to click on and everything. Who knows, maybe this will be a part of the new .net site design???? Sure hope so.

 

If permission was easier, I'd place more caches.

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

If there's no accounting for stupidity, then why do I need to file a tax return?

[+BrownMule & Jackrabbit]

quote:

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Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

It would be too cumbersome for geocaching.com to have to verify each cache.

---

 

I don't think that geocaching.com should have to verify any cache. I think that the cache owner should proove contact with the land manager or owner by posting their name and title on the cache approval page. Then the problem is solved because the cache owner has already been in contact with the cache owner and knows their personal information if they need to contact them. There will never be a need for the land manager to contact Geocaching.com then.

 

_________________________________________________________

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

[+Renegade Knight]

quote:

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Originally posted by BrownMule:

I think that the cache owner should proove contact with the land manager or owner by posting their name and title on the cache approval page.

---

 

Well, I'm in partial agreement here. My contact info is found by clicking Renegade Knight on the cache page and sending an email via the geocaching.com process. I have no use nor interest in posting my real name online for all to see. This hidden identity is not for evading land managers. Merely for evading morons.

 

I just re-read your post and missed your real meaning the first time. I don't think it's appropriate to include that information on a cache page unless they have specifically requested it to be there. I'm working with the local Zoo and they are interested in that so they will get a link.

[+Quest Master]

I didn’t think that the idea of allowing direct emails would be well received but I suggested it anyway to draw a few people into the debate. Trolling... Way back in the early days of geocaching (about two years ago) there was actually a mailto link on each and every cache page which could be used to contact the cache owner. Jeremy and company anticipated the problems that Mopar has alluded to and gave us the system we have today which saves us all from getting spammed to death. The downside is that it makes things difficult for the casual or one-time user of the website (concerned park ranger or really pissed off landowner) to communicate with the cache owner. It is one thing to say that they can sign up for an account and contact you through the site but it is something entirely different to expect them to jump through all of the required hoops to do it. Assume that that land manager Brown Mule is borderline computer literate, does not already have a geocaching.com account, and is navigating the website for the first time. Consider the process that he would have to go through to locate the relevant cache page and contact the Renegade Knight to ask him a simple question about his cache. Yikes! The Renegade Knight is probably going to have to deal with one really angry Brown Mule by the time he finally gets through. We all lose when he tells him to remove the cache.

 

I think there is a problem here. I also happen to think that there is a good solution to this problem should not be all that difficult to implement. I do not know for sure because I be dumb about this computer stuff. I am thinking that a fairly simple solution could be a link on the main page (“report a problem with a cache”) to a form that would collect whatever vague or specific info the concerned person is able to provide to identify the cache and send it on to admin who would research the problem and forward the info to the relevant cache owner. There could likewise be a similar link on every cache description page (“report a problem with this cache”) to link to a form that would automatically (or not?) generate an email to the cache owner. I would really like to hear some suggestions from somebody who am more smarter than me about this here internet stuff.

 

Johnny

[+Sissy-n-CR]

We could do like the letterboxing community does, and something which I've gotten away from, and that's to put your contact information directly on or in the cache. Heck, I've got my home number in a couple of them. I think I'm gonna go back and make sure it's in every one of them.

 

About requiring permission: I've contacted a land manager of a company that manages huge tracts of land. They offer recreational use of the land and even have a major trail. I asked for permission to place a cache and, after consulting their attorneys, they said basically they couldn't grant specific permission, much of their land is open to recreational use, and what they "...didn't know about..." I got the impression they didn't want knowledge of something they might get sued over. So, you can't always get specific permission because of liability issues. The best thing to do is ask first and see what their policy is. If we loss the cache, then it's a risk we're willing to take.

 

But I agree, there should be some kind of contact for the person responsible for the cache. You could put it directly on or in the cache itself.

 

CR

 

[+naffita]

I have my e-mail address on the 'congratulations , you've found it' sheet in the cache, I thought everyone did. After all, its me who will have to retrieve the offending cache if it causes a problem.

 

naffita

[+Sissy-n-CR]

While talking to my wife about this thread, she informed me she actually puts her cell phone number in the logbook greetings.

 

Shows you how much I pay attention.

 

CR

 

[gm100guy]

I have been talking to the Ministry here in Ontario Canada about caching for the last while.

 

We are working together to get a policy from them on caching in provincial parks. It is a slow and low process.

 

I have a letter they sent me saying that caches are not allowed. I posted this letter and sent a copy to the admin here.

 

goecaching in ontario web page

 

I then see caches approved in parks still, When you look at the map on the page it shows terrain and you can see it in a park.

 

We need the powers to be to ask or go through and set up a dbase for the approvers to check before a cache is posted.

 

Land Managers seem to get upset after they say no and then keep finding caches on there lands.

 

Alot of cachers that care for geocaching and proper land use are doing alot of time consuming work around the world trying to sort out these issues and we need some coperation from all cachers.

 

I think one solution would be is to have a line on the report a cache form to ask if this is on state/government land and then the appovers could check the dbase during the approval process.

 

We need to work together here and help each other before there is no where to place caches.

 

 

gm100guy

http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm

[+Darkmoon]

I always post my email addy and a note that if this cache needs to be removed, please use the above addy and I will gladly remove it! There is even my geocaching card I made that has that info on it! And trying to find the right official is often hard work as it seems like in all government offices, you are always being passed around since no one wants responsibilty!

Darkmoon

 

All you have to do to fly is throw yourself at the ground and miss!

[+Quest Master]

Putting contact info in the cache is certainly a good idea and I do that BUT geocaching.com absolutely cannot enforce this as a requirement for listing a cache. How could they know if the cache owner put the info in the cache or not? Furthermore, what some are failing to consider here is that it is more likely that a land manager or other concerned person is going to learn about the existence of a geocache from the website or another source rather than it is that they will find it by accident in its hiding place. In such cases, it matters not that there is contact info in the cache unless they would be inclined to become geocachers and go looking for it.

 

Putting permission info on the cache description page is likewise a good idea and I would certainly do that if a park manager asked BUT geocaching.com realistically cannot be expected to enforce this requirement either. The approval process is no doubt difficult enough already and they just don’t have the resources to verify this information. There will be as many different regulations as there are regulators and it would be all but impossible for geocaching.com to determine if the cache owner has followed all of the rules.

 

It is therefore my opinion that it is the sole responsibility of the cache owner to ask permission and/or know and abide by the rules and regs for the area they hide a cache in. Geocaching.com cannot and should not try to relive cache owners of this responsibility. Any issue relating to a specific cache should be handled by the cache owner whenever possible so that Jeremy and his staff do not have to be bothered with it. The role of geocaching.com as it pertains to relations between cache owners and land managers or landowners or other concerned persons should be limited to providing good lines of communication. I think that there is room for improvement here. I feel that the current system creates the appearance, at least, that we are (or could be) hiding behind screen names and are not accountable or responsible for the geocaches we hide. I think there is a consensus here that the vast majority of us are willing and want to be responsible for our caches. I am confident that the geniuses that built this site can figure out a way to accomplish this without anybody’s privacy being compromised.

 

Johnny

[+trippy1976]

Mentioning that state or local groups that can help are listed on the main state search pages might be good. Michigan is ready, willing and able to discuss any concerns by land owners. We have been trying to get more and more public but also encourage our members to put 'cache patches' on their cache pages that indicate that the cache is maintained by a MiGO member. That way if they ever go dark - there is still a route for contact.

 

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trippy1976 - Team KKF2A

Saving geocaches - one golf ball at a time.