Earthcache inside museums

[toczygroszek]

Hi, I have a question about Earthcaches inside museums. There is a note in FAQ:

"EarthCaches cannot be however inside Museums or visitor centres and need to be accessiable after hours. EarthCaches developed that require people to pay an entry fee will be discouraged."

However, I spotted an Earthcahe, what was just published, where is a question what require visit an exhibit inside a museum and this question is obligatory. There is no entry fee, but there are access hours (there are not described in cache listing). I'm little bit confused about that. Is thar reviewer's mistake, or this rule is not obligatory?

[+Konnarock Kid & Marge]

You are right about the rule, but it is obviously ignored. I know of several ECs just like the one you are referencing. One is practically in our back yard!

Your example is exactly why a lot of us got discouraged with developing earthcaches. Between getting permission from public parks and inconsistent rule application, I gave up!

[cezanne]

You are right about the rule, but it is obviously ignored. I know of several ECs just like the one you are referencing. One is practically in our back yard!

Your example is exactly why a lot of us got discouraged with developing earthcaches. Between getting permission from public parks and inconsistent rule application, I gave up!

 

I think that there is a difference between the guidelines and the faq. I need to admit however that I think that the organization of the information on ECs in guidelines, faq and knowledge book is not done in the best way and can be quite misleading.

 

I have recently come across a communication by an EC reviewer who told a cacher who has asked whether he could go for a an underground EC which requires paying an entrance fee, that this question is dealt with at a higher level. Later on he was told that he could proceed with his cache, but that the questions needs to be really good ones. In his case going underground is the only option as there exists already a multi cache above the ground which is 24/7 accessible and deals with the geological site. An EC of the same type would be rejected right away.

 

 

Personally, I welcome if the EC reviewers make a decision based on the individual case. I do not think that rigid rules are able to be flexible enough to achieve good results.

If what really can be learnt or seen at a location is not 24/7 accessible, then it makes no sense in my opinion to come up with a boring and not really educative EC outside of the area of interest. In such a situation, there exist only two options that are fine with me: Either no Ec at all or an EC leading to the interesting area. Visiting the outside of a cave and answering at which hours the cave is open (or something comparable) is a very lame EC in my opinion.

 

I would not be favourable, however, about an EC in some arbitrary museum on geology, for example, because this does not correspond to my idea about Earthcaches. I welcome, howeever, ECs that require visiting a show cave, a mine or something similar.

 

Cezanne

Edited January 2, 2012 by cezanne

[Sandy]

Hi, I have a question about Earthcaches inside museums. There is a note in FAQ:

"EarthCaches cannot be however inside Museums or visitor centres and need to be accessiable after hours. EarthCaches developed that require people to pay an entry fee will be discouraged."

However, I spotted an Earthcahe, what was just published, where is a question what require visit an exhibit inside a museum and this question is obligatory. There is no entry fee, but there are access hours (there are not described in cache listing). I'm little bit confused about that. Is thar reviewer's mistake, or this rule is not obligatory?

 

Can you please forward the GC code to Groundspeak - or post here? It may be that there are details associated with this cache that meant it was published after special consideration.

[+Thutmosis]

I've seen some fine ECs where entry into a museum/visitor center is required to view the geology exhibits and answer questions based on them. Other ECs requiring entry are really lame. I get especially agrivated when the museum is closed and I made a special trip there for nothing. There does seem to be a policy prohibiting such entry ECs. This just one of several examples where rules are inconsistently applied. I sometimes feel that some reviewers are unfamiliar with the rules/policies. I think some training for them is in order.

[Sandy]

Groundspeak is talking with the GSA about this aspect of the guidelines. We will let our fellow EarthCachers know of any update.

[toczygroszek]

Can you please forward the GC code to Groundspeak - or post here? It may be that there are details associated with this cache that meant it was published after special consideration.

 

There is: http://coord.info/GC385EJ

One think - I have to say sorry - there is an information about opening hours, what I just didn't spot before (or was added in last update):

The museum infos: entrance free, but it is open only during those times: Monday-Friday 09.00-15.00 / Sunday 10.00-14.00. At Saturday it is closed.

I'm pretty sure there was a discussion with the cache owner, and personally for me the cache is great, only what I want to know is what is a point to keep in FAQ answers, what are not in use? I think many people will be disapointed while arrive there after opening hours (only 4 hours during a weekend). Reading the Earthcache FAQ, many people could be sure they can come there on every time they want. So maybe this point in FAQ should be reedited or just deleted?

[cezanne]

Groundspeak is talking with the GSA about this aspect of the guidelines. We will let our fellow EarthCachers know of any update.

 

Thank you.

 

I'd just like to mention that the formulation cited by the OP is not part of the guidelines, it is just part of the faq. These are two separate documents and EC hiders only confirm to have followed and read the EC guidelines. Moreover, the formulation discouraged appears to mean that it is possible to come up with EC that are not 24/7 accessible under appropriate circumstances. Otherwise, they would say it is forbidden or not possible.

 

Cezanne

[Sandy]

Groundspeak is talking with the GSA about this aspect of the guidelines. We will let our fellow EarthCachers know of any update.

 

Thank you.

 

I'd just like to mention that the formulation cited by the OP is not part of the guidelines, it is just part of the faq. These are two separate documents and EC hiders only confirm to have followed and read the EC guidelines. Moreover, the formulation discouraged appears to mean that it is possible to come up with EC that are not 24/7 accessible under appropriate circumstances. Otherwise, they would say it is forbidden or not possible.

 

Cezanne

Understood - we are discussing whether the guidelines should be updated, and/or how better to clarify best practices for EC owners.

[cezanne]

I think many people will be disapointed while arrive there after opening hours (only 4 hours during a weekend).

 

But shouldn't they read the cache description before starting for an EC?

 

Personally, I would be much more disappointed if an EC just required me to visit the entrance of an museum and to write down some facts that have no educational value. So the choice is between having an EC that requires to visit the museum or having no EC there at all. Any solution inbetween is extremely lame.

 

Cezanne

[toczygroszek]

But shouldn't they read the cache description before starting for an EC?

 

Yes, they should, but if a tourist has 1000 uploaded caches on his GPS, it'st not possible read every cache descrption. Is the same like traditional cache could be foundable only with coordinates (no additional waypoints or puzzles).

 

Personally, I would be much more disappointed if an EC just required me to visit the entrance of an museum and to write down some facts that have no educational value.

 

You are pretty right, but this is something for seperate thread.

[+Konnarock Kid & Marge]

I think many people will be disapointed while arrive there after opening hours (only 4 hours during a weekend).

 

But shouldn't they read the cache description before starting for an EC?

Personally, I would be much more disappointed if an EC just required me to visit the entrance of an museum and to write down some facts that have no educational value. So the choice is between having an EC that requires to visit the museum or having no EC there at all. Any solution inbetween is extremely lame.

 

Cezanne

 

That's not the point.

The question is, should the EC should exist in the first place per the guidelines. Somewhere in the deep, deep crypt of previous threads, this was discussed. Paying admission is one thing and limited hours is another.

The only problem when addressing admission charges, there are tons of ECs in parks where admission is required and often those same parks have limited hours? Only difference may be costs. Park admission fees are usually much cheaper than museums, but not always.

We are glad to see that the problem is being reviewed. Good luck!

[+Chokecherry]

I've attempted one ec that required info from with in a visitors center with open and closed hours. I've done one where info could only be obtained from staff or going on a paid for tour of the site. Again open and closed hours. In fact closed in the winter. And I've driven by one because of severely limited open hours of the visitors center where info had to obtained as well as a picture. I don't do many earth caches but from what I can see that is one guideline that isn't even considered by reviewers in the process. There were others I had planned to do as well but drove by due to visiting hours problems.

[+Manville Possum]

You are right about the rule, but it is obviously ignored. I know of several ECs just like the one you are referencing. One is practically in our back yard!

Your example is exactly why a lot of us got discouraged with developing earthcaches. Between getting permission from public parks and inconsistent rule application, I gave up!

One? Dude, there are about three I can think of. One I had to pay the property owner $5 to park, but it was well worth it. I gave up too KK, I still list virtuals and challanges at places that would make nice EarthCaches. I'm just not good at teaching a geology lesson when I know little about the subject myself. I'm just in it for the WoW factor, that's where I get my smiley.

[cezanne]

But shouldn't they read the cache description before starting for an EC?

 

Yes, they should, but if a tourist has 1000 uploaded caches on his GPS, it'st not possible read every cache descrption. Is the same like traditional cache could be foundable only with coordinates (no additional waypoints or puzzles).

 

I think that for ECs the description should always be read in advance and that the guidelines and the type of Ecs allowed should not be influenced by cachers not willing to read the description in advance.

 

Cezanne

[cezanne]

I think many people will be disapointed while arrive there after opening hours (only 4 hours during a weekend).

 

But shouldn't they read the cache description before starting for an EC?

Personally, I would be much more disappointed if an EC just required me to visit the entrance of an museum and to write down some facts that have no educational value. So the choice is between having an EC that requires to visit the museum or having no EC there at all. Any solution inbetween is extremely lame.

 

Cezanne

 

That's not the point.

The question is, should the EC should exist in the first place per the guidelines. Somewhere in the deep, deep crypt of previous threads, this was discussed. Paying admission is one thing and limited hours is another.

The only problem when addressing admission charges, there are tons of ECs in parks where admission is required and often those same parks have limited hours? Only difference may be costs. Park admission fees are usually much cheaper than museums, but not always.

We are glad to see that the problem is being reviewed. Good luck!

 

I think what I have written belongs to the topic insofar that I'm explaining why I am in favor of allowing ECs with admission fees and/or at locations that are not accessible all the time in cases where a stronger EC results. I do appreciate any procedure that allows the EC reviewers to decide whether to publish or to reject such an EC. No one needs to share my opinion. I just explained my preference.

 

I do not see any strong argument for treating ECs differently from normal caches for which admission fees and locations that are not 24/7 accessible are not generally forbidden.

 

Cezanne

Edited January 3, 2012 by cezanne

[toczygroszek]

But shouldn't they read the cache description before starting for an EC?

 

Yes, they should, but if a tourist has 1000 uploaded caches on his GPS, it'st not possible read every cache descrption. Is the same like traditional cache could be foundable only with coordinates (no additional waypoints or puzzles).

 

I think that for ECs the description should always be read in advance and that the guidelines and the type of Ecs allowed should not be influenced by cachers not willing to read the description in advance.

 

Cezanne

 

And caches placed in areas where is "no entry" sign should be allowed. Everyone should read signs and shouldn't go behind that sign...

 

What do you think, what was the reason create this point in FAQ?

Edited January 4, 2012 by toczygroszek

[Neos2]

What do you think, what was the reason create this point in FAQ?

 

I seem to recall (but could be mistaken) the reason the restriction in museums was to discourage EarthCaches that ONLY ask people to go into a museum and see some small scrap of geology totally out of context. There are so many very cool "things" in museums and nature centers to see, but EarthCaching is more focused on exploring the geologic features of the Earth outdoors, up close and personal.

 

I read the EarthCache in question to also have outdoor components, and the trip inside was more of a very cool logging task, not the main purpose of the visit. I could be mistaken about that as well.

[cezanne]

But shouldn't they read the cache description before starting for an EC?

 

Yes, they should, but if a tourist has 1000 uploaded caches on his GPS, it'st not possible read every cache descrption. Is the same like traditional cache could be foundable only with coordinates (no additional waypoints or puzzles).

 

I think that for ECs the description should always be read in advance and that the guidelines and the type of Ecs allowed should not be influenced by cachers not willing to read the description in advance.

 

Cezanne

 

And caches placed in areas where is "no entry" sign should be allowed. Everyone should read signs and shouldn't go behind that sign. The game started, lets write more nonsense example...

 

I do not regard what I wrote as nonsense. As your example is regarded, caches in areas where "no entry" signs exist are certainly allowed. Caches where one needs to violate access restrictions are of course not allowed. There are certainly cachers who do not read cache descriptions and for this reason for example might end up in trespassing because they try to reach a perfectly legally reachable

cache from the wrong direction. This does not mean that it makes sense to forbid caches which are not freely accessible from all directions and at all times of the day.

 

What do you think, what was the reason create this point in FAQ?

 

To discourage certain type of EC submissions, for example those that have been mentioned by Neos2, but other types as well.

The EC reviewers should not be confronted by hundreds of EC submissions which require to visit a mineral in the local mineral collection.

 

Cezanne

[+Konnarock Kid & Marge]

What do you think, what was the reason create this point in FAQ?

 

I seem to recall (but could be mistaken) the reason the restriction in museums was to discourage EarthCaches that ONLY ask people to go into a museum and see some small scrap of geology totally out of context. There are so many very cool "things" in museums and nature centers to see, but EarthCaching is more focused on exploring the geologic features of the Earth outdoors, up close and personal.

 

I read the EarthCache in question to also have outdoor components, and the trip inside was more of a very cool logging task, not the main purpose of the visit. I could be mistaken about that as well.

 

Very well said.

Earthcaches were intended to get people off their duffs to enjoy and learn something about geology in the outdoors, although I may be wrong about the part of getting people off their duffs!

Fees may be a minor impediment. From park admission to parking fees, sometimes the fees cannot be avoided.

[Sandy]

Groundspeak and the GSA have discussed this question. Please keep an eye on the FAQs on EarthCache.org in the coming days, and you will see the updated position.

Cheers, everyone.

[toczygroszek]

Groundspeak and the GSA have discussed this question. Please keep an eye on the FAQs on EarthCache.org in the coming days, and you will see the updated position.

Cheers, everyone.

 

Thank you.

[+Touchstone]

Thanks for the update on the update

[+Flintstone5611]

Personally I am not a big fan of limited hours or admission. When I was in the mayan riviera it seemed like 90% of ECs were pay admission or you had to take a tour. There is a group of ECs that are within a park that requires $25USD for admission. Then there is a cenote that is absolutely beautiful, but in order to get the the answers, you need to take an $80USD tour of it that takes 4-6 hours. I was so miffed by it all that I decided to make sure that the EC I made was in a free, 24h accessible location, so that anyone that can get there can enjoy it. Fight fire with love, lol!

[+Konnarock Kid & Marge]

Personally I am not a big fan of limited hours or admission. When I was in the mayan riviera it seemed like 90% of ECs were pay admission or you had to take a tour. There is a group of ECs that are within a park that requires $25USD for admission. Then there is a cenote that is absolutely beautiful, but in order to get the the answers, you need to take an $80USD tour of it that takes 4-6 hours. I was so miffed by it all that I decided to make sure that the EC I made was in a free, 24h accessible location, so that anyone that can get there can enjoy it. Fight fire with love, lol!

 

Eighty bucks for an earthcache? That ought to be a down payment to buy the thing!

[+Harry Dolphin]

Yeah. My local EarthCache Power Trail has one of these.

Open year round, Monday-Saturday 8 a.m. to 3 p.m. and Sundays from Memorial Day through Labor Day (closed most holidays).

I've never seen it open.

Logging Activities:

1. How has the hydrology of the Harbor Estuary influenced how people used this land? (See exhibits)

2. View the exhibits and take a look across the horizon, you will see a panoramic view. Describe one natural feature and one man-made feature of the view.

Hey! It's a landfill! Only thing natural out there is the sky!

I'd say that an EarthCache in a museum is a very poor choice. Nothing hands on. Hopefully, the update will eliminate these. Hmm... Thought they were eliminated with the update a few years back, when EarthCaching came back from Waypointing.

[cezanne]

I'd say that an EarthCache in a museum is a very poor choice. Nothing hands on. Hopefully, the update will eliminate these. Hmm... Thought they were eliminated with the update a few years back, when EarthCaching came back from Waypointing.

 

But note that the statement in the faq does not only concern museums. Do you really think that ECs in front of famous drip stone caves, outside of an exceptional amethyst quarry (e.g. here http://www.waldviertel.at/e/default.asp?id=84344 ) really makes sense?

Typically nothing can be learnt from such ECs that is cannot be read in the internet as the logging questions just refer to some aspects that should make sure that the visitor has been at the site.

 

If no ECs inside such locations are allowed, lame ones outside that do not provide the real experience of the site should not be published either.

 

Cezanne

[cezanne]

Personally I am not a big fan of limited hours or admission. When I was in the mayan riviera it seemed like 90% of ECs were pay admission or you had to take a tour. There is a group of ECs that are within a park that requires $25USD for admission. Then there is a cenote that is absolutely beautiful, but in order to get the the answers, you need to take an $80USD tour of it that takes 4-6 hours. I was so miffed by it all that I decided to make sure that the EC I made was in a free, 24h accessible location, so that anyone that can get there can enjoy it. Fight fire with love, lol!

 

I do not quite get what's the problem for example with ECs in a park that requires $25USD for admission. There are two cases:

 

Case 1: One wishes to visit the park and then goes there anyway and can decide whether or not one wants to visit some of the ECs in the park on the occasion of one's visit.

 

Case 2: One does not want or cannot afford to visit the park. Then it does not play any role whether or not there are ECs or other caches inside the park.

 

I agree that there should be some balance and it would be very unfortunate if the majority of ECs are at locations that are associated with fees or restricted access times because there are many terrific EC locations that are freely accessible. I do not understand, however, why it makes sense to exclude many great locations just because they are not freely accessible.

 

Cezanne

[+Konnarock Kid & Marge]

If it costs too much, you can always try sneaking in!

Further speculation on this is becoming redundant and not relevant.

As Sandy says: "Please keep an eye on the FAQs on EarthCache.org"

I'll wait 'til then!

[cezanne]

If it costs too much, you can always try sneaking in!

 

Personally, I rather would stay away.

 

Further speculation on this is becoming redundant and not relevant.

As Sandy says: "Please keep an eye on the FAQs on EarthCache.org"

I'll wait 'til then!

 

I was not speculating at all as I was only describing my personal opinion and preferences. They will stay as they are

regardless of what will be changed in the faq or elsewhere.

 

Cezanne

[+Chokecherry]

Paying to get into a park doesn't bother me nearly as much as having to get the info from inside a building which may or may not be open. I was under the assumption this was an outside activity dealing with nature where nature is.

[+Touchstone]

From the GSA site:

 

An EarthCache site is a special place that people can visit to learn about a unique geoscience feature or aspect of our Earth.

 

I guess I interpret that to mean the emphasis is on learning. As far as I'm concerned, it's great when it's outside, but it I don't need to be outside to learn something.

[toczygroszek]

From the GSA site:

 

An EarthCache site is a special place that people can visit to learn about a unique geoscience feature or aspect of our Earth.

 

I guess I interpret that to mean the emphasis is on learning. As far as I'm concerned, it's great when it's outside, but it I don't need to be outside to learn something.

 

Earthcache should be educational itself. The earthcache should show you an unique feature and description should explain origination of that future. What is educational in cache description when is there only task: "go to the museum and say 'wow'"? A museum is educational, not an earthcache site, what give you only coordinates to this museum. In my opinion, however the site like museum is a really great place, an earthcache based on that is really poor. Maybe another idea for an earthcache is: "go to the library, read book about geology and answer to questions below"? I don't know is that original idea of Earthcaching...

[+markcase]

So far, every EarthCache I have visited that required a trip inside a building has clearly stated the cost to enter the building or the times the building is open to the public. As long as I have that information up front, I am happy to visit these caches.

[+hzoi]

I tried setting up an earthcache in a museum entrance. The floor is tiled with sandstone containing a number of different fossils. It would have been in the entrance hall, outside of the fee area, so the operating hours would have been the only limit. Unfortunately I never was able to coordinate with their management (read: they wouldn't return my phone calls), so it went nowhere. Still on my back burner of ideas, at some point perhaps I'll pick the phone back up and see if they're willing to play ball.

[+Touchstone]

Maybe another idea for an earthcache is: "go to the library, read book about geology and answer to questions below"?

 

You appear to be straying from the topic a bit. I thought we were talking about museums, not libraries

[toczygroszek]

Maybe another idea for an earthcache is: "go to the library, read book about geology and answer to questions below"?

 

You appear to be straying from the topic a bit. I thought we were talking about museums, not libraries

 

I'm only trying explain an idea of Earthcaching (as I understand it), and what is little bit off.

[cezanne]

Maybe another idea for an earthcache is: "go to the library, read book about geology and answer to questions below"?

 

You appear to be straying from the topic a bit. I thought we were talking about museums, not libraries

 

I'm only trying explain an idea of Earthcaching (as I understand it), and what is little bit off.

 

I'd like to know which kind of EC meets your idea of EC at locations like this one

http://www.waldviertel.at/e/default.asp?id=84344

and that one

http://www.showcaves.com/english/at/showcaves/Grassl.html

 

The amethyst mine and the cave are only accessible at certain times and an entrance fee has to be paid.

Outside of the area with restricted access, one can ask only questions that are not really connected to

experiencing geological sites. My idea of EC means that a cache that teaches me about an exceptional cave, mine etc

needs to require a visit of these interior of these sites and not just of some signs outside the place which mention

e.g. how much one has to pay and since when the area exists.

 

I agree that any EC should provide a hands on experience, but by being against ECs which are not 24/7 accessible free of charge,

one is automatically in favour of ECs that do not provide the real experience, but just a very lame substitute.

 

Cezanne

[+Harry Dolphin]

Earthcache should be educational itself. The earthcache should show you an unique feature and description should explain origination of that future. What is educational in cache description when is there only task: "go to the museum and say 'wow'"? A museum is educational, not an earthcache site, what give you only coordinates to this museum. In my opinion, however the site like museum is a really great place, an earthcache based on that is really poor. Maybe another idea for an earthcache is: "go to the library, read book about geology and answer to questions below"? I don't know is that original idea of Earthcaching...

 

Yes. This exemplifies EarthCaching for me. Bring me to an interesting spot (not necessarily unique) with an interesting earth science lesson. A museum is not an interesting earth science location. Sure the Hope Diamond is interesting, but it wasn't found here. I may know more about kames and kettles than I ever needed to know but show me a kame or a kettle, not a museum interpretation of a kame of a kettle or a waterfall, or a landfill. The museum does not show me an interesting earth-science site. I could borrow a book from the library for that. Yes, I could learn something, but it is not interesting earth-science spot.

[toczygroszek]

 

I agree that any EC should provide a hands on experience, but by being against ECs which are not 24/7 accessible free of charge,

one is automatically in favour of ECs that do not provide the real experience, but just a very lame substitute.

 

Dear ceazanne4, I'm really not against fees and limited opening time. I don't like this, but don't say definitely "no". My original question was - why that caches were published if FAQ say they shouldn't. That is strange for me, and I ask for what is that FAQ? If you can develop cache like that, please explain in FAQ what requirements it needs.

 

Another thing are caves, mines and other sites where are geological phenomena in nature. There are unique places, however you can explain origination of these forms and make question based on the information boards, forms of terrain outside, or rocks nearby. Mostly near a tourist cave there are a lot of caves with unlimited access. But I can understand if visiting interior of these spots could be obligatory. But please, include that in FAQ!

Regarding museums - I'm hundred percent sure, that 99% of person visiting museum learn nothing. Why? There are a lot of examples, fossils, minerals and you just walk and look how they are. If your Earthcache is about specified fossil, you can lead to the spot in museum where that fossil is exhibited, explain about that and make question about that. But wouldn't better make an Earthcache in old quarry from where that fossils originate and you can find these on a rock?

[+Touchstone]

...why that caches were published if FAQ say they shouldn't.

 

Maybe because the EC Reviewers are human like the rest of us? Seems simple....drop the Publishing Reviewer an email asking about the inconsistency.

[cezanne]

I'm really not against fees and limited opening time. I don't like this, but don't say definitely "no".

 

You did not provide any reason why you do not like such ECs. Is it better to have no EC at all at a unique location which is not freely accessible?

 

Another thing are caves, mines and other sites where are geological phenomena in nature. There are unique places, however you can explain origination of these forms and make question based on the information boards, forms of terrain outside, or rocks nearby.

 

There are many cases I know of where it is not easy to distiguish between a show cave, mine, tunnel or a museum. Sometimes there exist small museums located at such places that also show the history of the place, e.g. a former mine.

 

Of course one can ask questions based on informations boards, but the learning effect is then typically comparable to reading information about the location in the internet or a book. Reading about amethyst is comparable to going to a library and reading a book about amethyst. Visiting an excavated amethyst mine, however, provides a hands on experience.

My idea about ECs is not only to learn something, but to learn something I could not learn that easily without visiting the EC location or a similar location.

 

Mostly near a tourist cave there are a lot of caves with unlimited access.

 

Definitely not in my area. There are caves that are no show caves, but the vast majority of them is under protection and entering them without special permission (which is not easy to get and normally only given to researchers or members of cave clubs under special conditions) is illegal.

 

Regarding museums - I'm hundred percent sure, that 99% of person visiting museum learn nothing. Why? There are a lot of examples, fossils, minerals and you just walk and look how they are.

 

This will certainly depend on the museum, on the visitors and other aspects. I know museums which are only visitable via a guided tour anyway and there you cannot walk around as you want and just visit a single item.

 

If your Earthcache is about specified fossil, you can lead to the spot in museum where that fossil is exhibited, explain about that and make question about that. But wouldn't better make an Earthcache in old quarry from where that fossils originate and you can find these on a rock?

 

It certainly depends on the EC and the situation. That's the reason why I prefer if the EC reviewers decide which submissions are ok. I am not fond of allowing ECs in all sorts of museums where some geologic item could be found. It depends on the museum, what is to be seen there, the questions, the writeup and many other things. Unlike for normal caches which are not reviewed with respect to content, this is different for ECs and could/should be exploited.

 

Cezanne

[toczygroszek]

You did not provide any reason why you do not like such ECs.

 

I did. Read my previous posts.

 

Is it better to have no EC at all at a unique location which is not freely accessible?

 

Is better make an Eartcache at spot, what is accesible 24/7.

[cezanne]

You did not provide any reason why you do not like such ECs.

 

I did. Read my previous posts.

 

I read them. You only argue with the FAQ, but this does not explain why *you* as a person do not *like* such caches.

 

Is it better to have no EC at all at a unique location which is not freely accessible?

 

Is better make an Eartcache at spot, what is accesible 24/7.

 

But one does not exclude the other. An EC at a rewarding 24/7 accessible location does not block an EC at another rewarding 24/7 accessible location.

 

What typically happens in my experience is rather that an EC at a rewarding location which is not freely accessible gets turned into a lame one by placing the EC outside of the real area of interest.

 

Moreover, there are lots of caches (ECs and physical ones) at locations that are 24/7 accessible, but should not be visited at arbitrary times, e.g. not at night, anyway.

One important aspect about ECs is to take care of nature and not to disturb human beings and animals (among others). So I think that reading the description of ECs should be obligatory, anyway. Visiting ECs without reading the text prior to the visit is a very bad habit and causes lots of problems as many ECs are in areas that should not be entered at night even if that is possible.

 

Cezanne

[+TerryDad2]

I'll add my 2 cents. As a general rule, I wouldn't recommend an EarthCache inside of a museum, defined as an enclosed climate controlled edifice. You can’t get a signal inside anyway, so how would you get accurate coordinates I agree with Neos2 up there at post #19.

 

EarthCaches where access is restricted and/or have an entrance fee are inevitable. Many exceptional geological locations are protected, need maintenance, or are dangerous (and yes, profited off of, ah captialism). Caves are an example of a location this is all three. Many US National Parks and California State Parks have entrance fees and these parks are often established to protect natural phenomena.

 

As for an EarthCache being accessible 24/7/365, I wouldn’t ever expect that. I expect to see something at the site, so night visits are out of the question (I put not recommended at night attribute on all my EarthCaches). And if you say I have a flashlight you just want to be argumentative. And any latitude or elevation where there is snow cover in the winter, I wouldn’t expect to see a thing (unless the subject is glaciology).

 

There are EarthCaches I don’t ever expect to get due to access or cost restrictions (the Antarctic ones), but I have no realistic expectation that all caches should be accessible to all people.

 

I think this topic is expanding a little beyond the original topic, but worth the discussion.

 

These are my expectations and opinions, someday I hope to get at least 4 cents for them.

[+Konnarock Kid & Marge]

I'll add my 2 cents. As a general rule, I wouldn't recommend an EarthCache inside of a museum, defined as an enclosed climate controlled edifice. You can’t get a signal inside anyway, so how would you get accurate coordinates I agree with Neos2 up there at post #19.

 

EarthCaches where access is restricted and/or have an entrance fee are inevitable. Many exceptional geological locations are protected, need maintenance, or are dangerous (and yes, profited off of, ah captialism). Caves are an example of a location this is all three. Many US National Parks and California State Parks have entrance fees and these parks are often established to protect natural phenomena.

 

As for an EarthCache being accessible 24/7/365, I wouldn’t ever expect that. I expect to see something at the site, so night visits are out of the question (I put not recommended at night attribute on all my EarthCaches). And if you say I have a flashlight you just want to be argumentative. And any latitude or elevation where there is snow cover in the winter, I wouldn’t expect to see a thing (unless the subject is glaciology).

 

There are EarthCaches I don’t ever expect to get due to access or cost restrictions (the Antarctic ones), but I have no realistic expectation that all caches should be accessible to all people.

 

I think this topic is expanding a little beyond the original topic, but worth the discussion.

 

These are my expectations and opinions, someday I hope to get at least 4 cents for them.

 

Very well said TerryDad2. I just checked the referenced guidelines and cannot find any reference to the original discussion point (ECs inside museums). Was it removed? Is that the result of the discussions between GS and GSA? What, if anything has happened? Maybe I missed something, but is that how the problem will be addressed by simply removing previous guideline language without explanation?

Thanks.

P.S. By the way, Neos2's post is number 18.

[cezanne]

I just checked the referenced guidelines and cannot find any reference to the original discussion point (ECs inside museums). Was it removed? Is that the result of the discussions between GS and GSA? What, if anything has happened? Maybe I missed something, but is that how the problem will be addressed by simply removing previous guideline language without explanation?

 

The paragraph the OP posted has never been part of the guidelines, but just part of the FAQ section on earthcache.org.

The text in the FAQ has indeed been changed. It now reads as follows.

GSA strongly encourages the development of EarthCaches outdoors rather than indoors. However, EarthCaches can be developed for indoor locations. Like an outdoor EarthCache, an indoor EarthCache must meet all general geocaching guidelines as posted at www.geocaching.com, as well as all EarthCaching guidelines, as posted at www.earthcache.org.

 

I think that this new formulation is quite clear and does not need any explanation.

 

The statement that ECs should not have restricted opening times and that they should be reachable free of charge has been removed.

For your reference, here is again the old version

EarthCaches cannot be however inside Museums or visitor centres and need to be accessiable after hours. EarthCaches developed that require people to pay an entry fee will be discouraged."

 

Cezanne

Edited January 13, 2012 by cezanne

[+GEO WALKER]

Here's my 2 cents:

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discourage

 

Definition of DISCOURAGE

transitive verb

1

: to deprive of courage or confidence : DISHEARTEN was discouraged by repeated failure

2

a: to hinder by disfavoring trying to discourage absenteeism

b: to dissuade or attempt to dissuade from doing something tried to discourage her from going

 

Perhaps we should take a look at a particular term, that being the word discourage. My interpretation of this term would lead the source of this topic toward difficulty not banishment.

Remember when it comes to fees, we all have a choice...

Edited January 13, 2012 by GEO WALKER

[Sandy]

The FAQ response on EarthCache.org has been update.

 

Can I develop an EarthCache as part of a museum or other exhibit?

 

GSA strongly encourages the development of EarthCaches outdoors rather than indoors. However, EarthCaches can be developed for indoor locations. Like an outdoor EarthCache, an indoor EarthCache must meet all general geocaching guidelines as posted at www.geocaching.com, as well as all EarthCaching guidelines, as posted at www.earthcache.org.

 

Thank you for those who raised the discussion, and as always each cache is assessed on its own merits.

[Neos2]

The FAQ response on EarthCache.org has been update.

 

Can I develop an EarthCache as part of a museum or other exhibit?

 

GSA strongly encourages the development of EarthCaches outdoors rather than indoors. However, EarthCaches can be developed for indoor locations. Like an outdoor EarthCache, an indoor EarthCache must meet all general geocaching guidelines as posted at www.geocaching.com, as well as all EarthCaching guidelines, as posted at www.earthcache.org.

 

Thank you for those who raised the discussion, and as always each cache is assessed on its own merits.

Thanks for the update, Sandy. I like the new wording. It encourages quality without being overly restrictive--the best of both worlds!