ABSOLUTLY NO ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT, DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!

[+tozainamboku]

There seems to be two issues with these caches related to how we perceive risks.

 

1. Caches placed on electrical equipment

 

It's probably true that the power companies or other owner of the equipment would not give permission for caches to be be hidden on electrical equipment. And while the power companies' main concern is safety in might be more due to their needs to maintain the equipment to ensure it is safe. The typical cache is placed on those green pad mounted transformers. This equipment is designed to be safe to the general public, enclosing high voltages in a locked cabinet with fuses to detect faults and protect people from shock should the come in contact with the enclosure. The power companies seem to want have it both ways. While they post that pad mounted transformers are safe they also tell you to avoid contact and to not let children play around them. There are certainly rare instances where the safety systems of the transformer could fail. Most common would be if the lock is broken and the cabinet can be opened. The power companies are also concerned with the safety of their crew when accessing the transformers. Anything that might interfere with the ability of the crew to open the access panels in the normal manner could put them at risk when they are working on the equipment.

 

My experience is that most of time caches are small magnetic containers attached on parts of the transformer enclosure where they won't interfere. However, not being an expert on this I would defer to to the power companies. A statement that nothing should ever be attached or placed on this equipment could be an appropriate addition to the guidelines.

 

2. Caches camouflaged to look like electrical equipment.

 

This issue is part of the more general issue of camouflage. We often get people who think sprinkler hides should be banned because they encourage people to take apart sprinklers. The equivalent argument is that if you disguise as cache as an electric junction box you might cause people to take apart a real electric box. It may be true that taking apart a real box could result in electrocution, while taking apart a sprinkler would only result in you getting wet. However, my experience has been that caches camouflage as something else can be detected with close observation or perhaps with a simple tug or twist. You don't have to take apart a sprinkler or a junction box to tell it's the cache. (You may have to do so to get the log out, but that is only after you have determined this is not a real sprinkler or junction box).

 

Now, I suppose that I may have a few DNFs where someone's camo was so good that I couldn't tell the cache from the real thing. But that's what makes geocaching fun. I know it's wrong and sometimes dangerous to take apart certain items. So before doing so I will first figure out that this is the cache. Not everyone knows this. For many there is a learning experience. After taking apart something and realizing you shouldn't have, most people learn to be more careful the next time. I hope that this experimentation doesn't result in someone's death. It's difficult to make convincing arguments here for one side or the other. Some see a small risk of death as unacceptable and blame the existence of the cache for someone taking apart the real thing. Others will find the risk of someone getting hurt while they learn how to safely determine what is a cache and what is real as being tiny and acceptable - or they will argue that people accept certain risk by making assumptions about what the cache might be. Education is the best response here. Both hiders and finders need to be reminded that when a cache is camouflaged as something else there needs to be a safe way to determine what is fake. The examples given of the electric box out in the woods where there are no power lines or any reason for having a box there is a one way to tell that it is the cache.

[+Walts Hunting]

Lighten up. They have been around since the beginning and will be when you are long gone. They are part of the hobby. You can choose to not do them andthat is fine. Being that this group is mildly anarchistic I don't think someone telling others they should change is going to fly.

[Clan Riffster]

I think it is the equivalent of hiding a cache in a mine field....

That kind of hyperbole doesn't help your case. The "electrical components" people encounter in daily life are not designed to explode if someone touches them. The "electrical components" people encounter in daily life are designed to be safe. The "electrical components" placed in public outdoor locations are especially designed to be safe.

Well yeah, but his version sounded a lot kewler!

 

Me: "OK, I got ground zero over here"

My Wife: "Check that light switch. It looks fake"

BOOM!!

[+Ed_M]

I don't live my life in fear of earthquakes, shark attacks, lightning strikes, or shorted electrical boxes.

 

You're right. As long as the box is grounded, you're fine. Around here, copper is getting stolen left and right. I'm seeing things blow up due to lightning strikes that have been fine for years, only to go out and see all the ground straps gone. Things have a habit of getting unsafe. You can't fight entropy. Now, suppose the ground is bad, and something inside that box just happens to touch the metal case. A long shot, sure, but now the box is at a potential of 13kv. You touch it. Your sneakers are wet. You are now the equivalent of a 200A biological fuse between the box and ground. You'll trip before the breaker on the pole does.

 

--- No longer directed at above post ---

 

I look at it as "Hey, if you're not comfortable chasing after something that could hurt you, leave the electrical boxes alone." There's a few I've seen pics of that I wouldn't touch without a meter. And I -am- an electrician.

 

But, hey, make your own decisions. Just make educated ones. And don't blame anyone but yourself if things go badly.

 

If you want to chase these, and would like an extra layer of safety, check out something like this:

 

http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Electrical-Tools-Accessories-Electrical-Test-Meters/h_d1/N-5yc1vZboff/R-100661787/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

 

It's a non-contact voltage tester. Poke it near something. If it's hot, it lights up. No voltage, no light. Test it on your outlets at home before trusting your life with it.

 

(I assume no liability for misuse of the above item. Link provided purely for academic purposes. Sucks that I feel I need to put a disclaimer on this.)

[knowschad]

If you want to chase these, and would like an extra layer of safety, check out something like this:

 

http://www.homedepot...catalogId=10053

 

It's a non-contact voltage tester. Poke it near something. If it's hot, it lights up. No voltage, no light. Test it on your outlets at home before trusting your life with it.

 

(I assume no liability for misuse of the above item. Link provided purely for academic purposes. Sucks that I feel I need to put a disclaimer on this.)

 

For $15, that would not be a stupid TOTT to carry, even for those of us that pooh-pooh these threads.

[AZcachemeister]

I'm an electrician that works for a major power company. Over the years (before I became active in the game), I've found probably half a dozen caches around electrical equipment I was working on. I normally just threw them away as trash. Geocaches have no business around electrical equipment, especially any that would be disguised as equipment themselves. If you want to set one up on your own property and willing to accept the liability (especially since your insurance probably won't cover it), then go for it, but keep it off privately owned equipment without permission.

 

Now that I'm in the game, if I find them around the equipment, I will remove them, and either turn it over to Lost Property or the Business Owner and email the cache owner where to pick it up. This would also go for any lamp post caches I find that are hidden inside the equipment.

 

Good for you!

If and when you decide to hide any caches, you certainly won't mind if someone/anyone takes exception to them and removes them, will you?

I've found many caches that I would just as rather toss into the desert...I'm not quite sure what it is that stops me from doing so...

[+GeoBain]

I'm an electrician that works for a major power company. Over the years (before I became active in the game), I've found probably half a dozen caches around electrical equipment I was working on. I normally just threw them away as trash. Geocaches have no business around electrical equipment, especially any that would be disguised as equipment themselves. If you want to set one up on your own property and willing to accept the liability (especially since your insurance probably won't cover it), then go for it, but keep it off privately owned equipment without permission.

 

Now that I'm in the game, if I find them around the equipment, I will remove them, and either turn it over to Lost Property or the Business Owner and email the cache owner where to pick it up. This would also go for any lamp post caches I find that are hidden inside the equipment.

 

Good for you!

If and when you decide to hide any caches, you certainly won't mind if someone/anyone takes exception to them and removes them, will you?

I've found many caches that I would just as rather toss into the desert...I'm not quite sure what it is that stops me from doing so...

 

You realize that as an employee of the power company that removing caches from the power company's equipment is no different than you removing a geocache someone has placed on your front porch without asking permission, don't you?

[+GeoBain]

It's amazing to me how many problems we see in the forums could be resolved if the guidelines were changed to require explicit permission.

[knowschad]

I'm an electrician that works for a major power company. Over the years (before I became active in the game), I've found probably half a dozen caches around electrical equipment I was working on. I normally just threw them away as trash. Geocaches have no business around electrical equipment, especially any that would be disguised as equipment themselves. If you want to set one up on your own property and willing to accept the liability (especially since your insurance probably won't cover it), then go for it, but keep it off privately owned equipment without permission.

 

Now that I'm in the game, if I find them around the equipment, I will remove them, and either turn it over to Lost Property or the Business Owner and email the cache owner where to pick it up. This would also go for any lamp post caches I find that are hidden inside the equipment.

 

Good for you!

If and when you decide to hide any caches, you certainly won't mind if someone/anyone takes exception to them and removes them, will you?

I've found many caches that I would just as rather toss into the desert...I'm not quite sure what it is that stops me from doing so...

 

You realize that as an employee of the power company that removing caches from the power company's equipment is no different than you removing a geocache someone has placed on your front porch without asking permission, don't you?

 

Well, actually, its more like your gardener throwing them away for you.

[Encino]

I'm an electrician that works for a major power company. Over the years (before I became active in the game), I've found probably half a dozen caches around electrical equipment I was working on. I normally just threw them away as trash. Geocaches have no business around electrical equipment, especially any that would be disguised as equipment themselves. If you want to set one up on your own property and willing to accept the liability (especially since your insurance probably won't cover it), then go for it, but keep it off privately owned equipment without permission.

 

Now that I'm in the game, if I find them around the equipment, I will remove them, and either turn it over to Lost Property or the Business Owner and email the cache owner where to pick it up. This would also go for any lamp post caches I find that are hidden inside the equipment.

 

Good for you!

If and when you decide to hide any caches, you certainly won't mind if someone/anyone takes exception to them and removes them, will you?

I've found many caches that I would just as rather toss into the desert...I'm not quite sure what it is that stops me from doing so...

 

If by some small chance I place it on private property without permission, then yes, it should be removed.

[+Roman!]

It's amazing to me how many problems we see in the forums could be resolved if the guidelines were changed to require explicit permission.

 

Now that would truly be the end of geocaching.

[+GeoBain]

It's amazing to me how many problems we see in the forums could be resolved if the guidelines were changed to require explicit permission.

 

Now that would truly be the end of geocaching.

 

If that is really true, it's doomed anyway. But my experiences with obtaining permission is that it's not as difficult as many think.

[+NeverSummer]

It's amazing to me how many problems we see in the forums could be resolved if the guidelines were changed to require explicit permission.

 

Now that would truly be the end of geocaching.

I suppose I feel lucky that I was able to find so many creative, fun, memorable, interesting, and non-lethal caches while I could. One of the benefits of starting early, I guess. The way folks get undies in bundles about so many types of caches that are "dangerous" (and hearing about a reviewer inserting personal preference on the process), it seems like some folks want to see the sterilization of the game. That will be when one might see that often discussed new, less restrictive site for listing geocaches take off...finally.

[+Roman!]

It's amazing to me how many problems we see in the forums could be resolved if the guidelines were changed to require explicit permission.

 

Now that would truly be the end of geocaching.

I suppose I feel lucky that I was able to find so many creative, fun, memorable, interesting, and non-lethal caches while I could. One of the benefits of starting early, I guess. The way folks get undies in bundles about so many types of caches that are "dangerous" (and hearing about a reviewer inserting personal preference on the process), it seems like some folks want to see the sterilization of the game. That will be when one might see that often discussed new, less restrictive site for listing geocaches take off...finally.

 

INTERESTING FACT: One does more damage to the Earth posting a single post on the forum than a years worth of randomly thrashing through the forest.

 

INTERESTING FACT #2: Supporting panty companies by purchasing a single pair of panties does more damage to the Earth than a lifetimes worth of randomly thrashing through the forest.

 

INTERESTING FACT #3: Breathing does more damage to the Earth than a 6 months worth of randomly thrashing through the forest.

 

MAYBE IT'S TIME FOR SUICIDE, save the planet!

Edited December 31, 2011 by Roman!

[+alberg35]

I am the one who opened this topic.. and I was going to say no more about it.. as so many people seem to think it is just fine. More needs said however. I will agree that most electrical cabinets are safe when you touch them and yes it is rare for them to have a short. Do not doubt it will deliver an instant hello to Saint Peter if it does.I did not see any photos of electrical cabinets being sold as Geocache containers. I saw junction boxes with conduit attached (being shown up against a house) it looked very real to me. These are being sold as Geocache containers.They also showed swithplates and wall boxes. They looked pretty real.. and any child seeing an adult open one of these.. is going to think it is ok to try to open other ones. No children are supervised constantly and it may be later in there own back yard or at school or any number of other places that they may see another box and think it is ok to try and open it. There are millions of these junction boxes in back yards especialy around swimming pool pumps, older AC units, (and no folks they are not super safe,) the only thing between you and voltage that can kill you is that little plate on the front. About 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch behind that plate are connections carrying live power, a child would not know the differance and from what I am hearing a lot of others wouldn't either.I have found many junction boxes thru the years with lose covers, missing screws,etc. and it would be no problem for a child with out tools to get one to open on up.Engineers cannot idiot proof every thing and it is wise to leave eletrical fixtures alone. That is just common sense. I do not live in fear of shark attacks/lightning strikes/rouge electrical cabinets etc. I spent years in the military have jumped from airplanes, have been to dangerous places,have fought remote forest fires for the US Forest Service,I fly small airplanes, I was a line man for a few years as a younger fellow,I also have been an all around handy man and have upgraded lots of old fuse boxes to modern breaker boxes,and have done lots of home electrical repairs,I am a good mechanic,I can operate pretty much all heavy equipment,and I have been certified in all 50 states as a motorcycle instructor, I also have spent many many weeks alone in the woods. I know a little something about risk awareness and risk assesment and risk reduction. You adults can play with electrical equipment all you want if you get zapped you get zapped. Keep the children away from it until they can make their own choice. Do not set them up for failure by your own disregard of the risk. Good day.

[+Roman!]

I am the one who opened this topic.. and I was going to say no more about it.. as so many people seem to think it is just fine. More needs said however. I will agree that most electrical cabinets are safe when you touch them and yes it is rare for them to have a short. Do not doubt it will deliver an instant hello to Saint Peter if it does.I did not see any photos of electrical cabinets being sold as Geocache containers. I saw junction boxes with conduit attached (being shown up against a house) it looked very real to me. These are being sold as Geocache containers.They also showed swithplates and wall boxes. They looked pretty real.. and any child seeing an adult open one of these.. is going to think it is ok to try to open other ones. No children are supervised constantly and it may be later in there own back yard or at school or any number of other places that they may see another box and think it is ok to try and open it. There are millions of these junction boxes in back yards especialy around swimming pool pumps, older AC units, (and no folks they are not super safe,) the only thing between you and voltage that can kill you is that little plate on the front. About 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch behind that plate are connections carrying live power, a child would not know the differance and from what I am hearing a lot of others wouldn't either.I have found many junction boxes thru the years with lose covers, missing screws,etc. and it would be no problem for a child with out tools to get one to open on up.Engineers cannot idiot proof every thing and it is wise to leave eletrical fixtures alone. That is just common sense. I do not live in fear of shark attacks/lightning strikes/rouge electrical cabinets etc. I spent years in the military have jumped from airplanes, have been to dangerous places,have fought remote forest fires for the US Forest Service,I fly small airplanes, I was a line man for a few years as a younger fellow,I also have been an all around handy man and have upgraded lots of old fuse boxes to modern breaker boxes,and have done lots of home electrical repairs,I am a good mechanic,I can operate pretty much all heavy equipment,and I have been certified in all 50 states as a motorcycle instructor, I also have spent many many weeks alone in the woods. I know a little something about risk awareness and risk assesment and risk reduction. You adults can play with electrical equipment all you want if you get zapped you get zapped. Keep the children away from it until they can make their own choice. Do not set them up for failure by your own disregard of the risk. Good day.

 

Problem with our society now-a-days, through laws and regulations we have eliminated the process of natural selection. Is it any wonder why the average IQ is under 100? Dangerous caches? Bring them on. The world is overpopulated anyways.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Roman!

[medoug]

The Iowa geocache approver will not knowingly approve any cache made to look like electrical equipment. If it is already approved and brought to their attention, it is promptly archived.

 

For some reason, lamp post skirt caches seem to be exempt from this policy. Arrrg!

OK, as the poster of the message quoted, I just wanted to clarify that every experience I have had with the IowaAdmin has been very professional and well handled. In general, I'm on board with this "Iowa" policy concerning caches and electrical equipment, but I can imagine situations where I'd suspect that the IowaAdmin would make exceptions.

 

I'm sure if you attached a light switch in a very unexpected place, for example, in an existing hole in a tree in a public area, you could probably get approval after explaining the unique situation. I think the type of situation he is primarily referring to in his blog is those situations where there would be some question between if it is real equipment or not, for example, if someone puts a cache on an electrical box mounted tight against a building with conduit pushed into the ground. Such a container could just as easily be a real electrical box containing live power.

 

I think it really boils down to a question of safety. We have lots of laws today that are in place to protect individuals which we are expected to follow regardless of if we agree with them or not, for example, seatbelt/helmet laws, smoke detector laws, etc.

 

And, as mentioned earlier in this thread, geocaching has guidelines, not rules or laws, which leaves a lot of gray areas to the disgression of the reviewers. Like it or not, this is the way it is handled by geocaching. It is not a democracy so they can handle things as they like. If you don't like, you can choose to not participate.

[+GeoBain]

for example, if someone puts a cache on an electrical box mounted tight against a building with conduit pushed into the ground. Such a container could just as easily be a real electrical box containing live power.

 

No it couldn't. Finding such a cache might lead one to go open up a real electrical box containing live power. But either the electrical box is real or it isn't.

 

Again, I have no problem with approaching this from a permission's angle if the cache is located on the power company's box. But we just went through this in the tragic death thread. The guidelines do not address safety. So if a cache is located in the same place that an ammo can or bison tube would be assumed to have adequate permission, then a fake light switch should be assumed to have adequate permission as well.

 

Either way, no sweat off my back. I get permission for my caches anyway. Permission fixes a lot of problems.

[+Huntleigh]

I am the one who opened this topic.. and I was going to say no more about it.. as so many people seem to think it is just fine. More needs said however. I will agree that most electrical cabinets are safe when you touch them and yes it is rare for them to have a short. Do not doubt it will deliver an instant hello to Saint Peter if it does.I did not see any photos of electrical cabinets being sold as Geocache containers. I saw junction boxes with conduit attached (being shown up against a house) it looked very real to me. These are being sold as Geocache containers.They also showed swithplates and wall boxes. They looked pretty real.. and any child seeing an adult open one of these.. is going to think it is ok to try to open other ones. No children are supervised constantly and it may be later in there own back yard or at school or any number of other places that they may see another box and think it is ok to try and open it. There are millions of these junction boxes in back yards especialy around swimming pool pumps, older AC units, (and no folks they are not super safe,) the only thing between you and voltage that can kill you is that little plate on the front. About 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch behind that plate are connections carrying live power, a child would not know the differance and from what I am hearing a lot of others wouldn't either.I have found many junction boxes thru the years with lose covers, missing screws,etc. and it would be no problem for a child with out tools to get one to open on up.Engineers cannot idiot proof every thing and it is wise to leave eletrical fixtures alone. That is just common sense. I do not live in fear of shark attacks/lightning strikes/rouge electrical cabinets etc. I spent years in the military have jumped from airplanes, have been to dangerous places,have fought remote forest fires for the US Forest Service,I fly small airplanes, I was a line man for a few years as a younger fellow,I also have been an all around handy man and have upgraded lots of old fuse boxes to modern breaker boxes,and have done lots of home electrical repairs,I am a good mechanic,I can operate pretty much all heavy equipment,and I have been certified in all 50 states as a motorcycle instructor, I also have spent many many weeks alone in the woods. I know a little something about risk awareness and risk assesment and risk reduction. You adults can play with electrical equipment all you want if you get zapped you get zapped. Keep the children away from it until they can make their own choice. Do not set them up for failure by your own disregard of the risk. Good day.

 

Paragraphs

[+Huntleigh]

I'm an electrician that works for a major power company. Over the years (before I became active in the game), I've found probably half a dozen caches around electrical equipment I was working on. I normally just threw them away as trash. Geocaches have no business around electrical equipment, especially any that would be disguised as equipment themselves. If you want to set one up on your own property and willing to accept the liability (especially since your insurance probably won't cover it), then go for it, but keep it off privately owned equipment without permission.

 

Now that I'm in the game, if I find them around the equipment, I will remove them, and either turn it over to Lost Property or the Business Owner and email the cache owner where to pick it up. This would also go for any lamp post caches I find that are hidden inside the equipment.

 

Good for you!

If and when you decide to hide any caches, you certainly won't mind if someone/anyone takes exception to them and removes them, will you?

I've found many caches that I would just as rather toss into the desert...I'm not quite sure what it is that stops me from doing so...

 

Perhaps what stops you is that you are not being paid to remove them? Which is what a serviceman working on a power utility's assets would be doing.

 

I am sure Encino would object if his cache had been placed somewhere with the property owner's permission and was then removed. But if he had not sought permission (like almost certainly all of the power company caches) then he could hardly object could he?

[+fizzymagic]

Is it any wonder why the average IQ is under 100?

 

You owe me a new keyboard! Mine now is shorted out from the Coke I sprayed laughing.

 

On-topic, can anyone explain why people from the other "safety" threads have not chimed in here? Personally, I don't hide electrical box hides or fake sprinkler heads because I have seen first-hand the results of those hiding techniques. I have a cache in my front yard (not hidden by me) and we have to replace our sprinkler head nearby about every couple of months. The argument that such hides encourage people to poke around where they should not is a good one.

 

But anyone who thinks that a shorted electrical boxes are likely is just ignorant. Think about the liability issues. Poking around inside electrical equipment? No. Touching the outside? A lot safer than the drive to the box.

[+Sol seaker]

 

The "electrical components" people encounter in daily life are designed to be safe. The "electrical components" placed in public outdoor locations are especially designed to be safe.

 

Sure they're designed to be safe.

That doesn't mean they are.

If you check out those other threads, there's an electrician who checks in regularly and tells us the real facts and figures.

They do kill people (and dogs)(sorry knowschad).

 

I was shocked, myself, by an outdoor light pole that was shorted out. Luckily it wasn't bad yet.

I just touched the outside of it and "felt the power".

I was looking for a cache in the wrong place.

I was very impressed by the cache owner who archived his cache because of it (I didn't ask him to).

 

 

Hi everybody...

 

I am new to this game but I must say I was STUNNED a few days back while looking at differant Geocache containers for sale.<snip> others feel about this. I think it is absolutly wreckless and dangerous.

 

I'm gonna go out on a limb, and guess that you are not now, nor have you ever been an electrician.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you aren't either.

There is an electrician who checks in here and tells us the real dangers.

[+Sol seaker]

Safety:

 

Sure, caching, and living, is not safe.

 

The thing about the electrical dangers is that no one knows about them, and no one puts notes on their caches about them.

 

The "hidden" dangers are the real problem ones.

 

I love the caches that are gotten only by ropes, or are on the sides of cliffs, etc.

Those dangers are obvious and generally spelled out by the cache owner on the cache page.

 

These are sneaky. You never know when you're going to find one that is shorted out. You can be lulled into complacency by finding caches on many that are safe, and then you find one that's not.

That and the fact that people start poking around electrical equipment because of caches found on other equipment, like the sprinkler heads.

 

I wish there was a way we could tell everyone that they need to be careful because there is some danger possibility here. Then I would have no problem with these.

 

 

And for heaven's sake, it doesn't help to keep your kids back. Leaving them without a parent doesn't help matters.

 

And no, I'm not saying they should be banned.

I'm just saying I wish they would have a warning on them so people would know about them.

[Clan Riffster]

I wish they would have a warning on them so people would know about them.

I can't quite wrap my head around the notion that there are folks out there in the real world who are bright enough to operate a handheld GPSr or smartphone, yet have no idea that those big green boxes covered in hazard stickers espousing the dangers of electricity, actually have electricity inside them. Or, they recognize that there is electricity inside them, but do not know that electricity can be harmful.

 

Rather, I think that by the time they arrive at one, while playing this game, they already have a fairly good idea regarding what those big green boxes are, and that the contents, if not properly maintained, can prove fatal.

[+niraD]

Thanks for the summary, tozainamboku! I have just a couple small comments.

While they post that pad mounted transformers are safe they also tell you to avoid contact and to not let children play around them.

They do? I just checked a few pad-mounted transformers. On the doors, they had a small "keep out" label and a small "do not obstruct doors" label. The other utility boxes (telephone, cable, traffic signal controls, etc.) didn't even have that. Many had alphanumeric labels, presumably identifying that particular box. And some had a manufacturer's logo.

 

But maybe it's a regional thing, depending on the specific utility company.

 

It may be true that taking apart a real box could result in electrocution, while taking apart a sprinkler would only result in you getting wet.

Taking apart a real sprinkler won't get you wet, unless you do so while the sprinklers are running. The risk is to the sprinkler itself, not to the person disassembling it.

[+Walts Hunting]

 

Problem with our society now-a-days, through laws and regulations we have eliminated the process of natural selection. Is it any wonder why the average IQ is under 100? Dangerous caches? Bring them on. The world is overpopulated anyways.

 

I think the expression is "Cull the herd"

[4wheelin_fool]

"Adequate permission" means that the general public is welcome to search those areas. There is a vast difference between being legally allowed on the property, and searching for objects left by someone else - which may not be welcome.

 

Victoria Horne is hidden among live wires inside of a rusty lampost on private property. I dont see any "adequate permission" which allows the general public to root around in there. Just because the public may be allowed in the parking lot, does not make it okay for them to perform activities in which the property owner would disapprove of. An area of "public accomadation" is limited to certain activities.

 

The outside of a transformer box is safe. It is not safe to say that the electic company says its okay to molest it. It also is not safe to assume law enforcement would think you are not acting suspicious.

Edited December 31, 2011 by 4wheelin_fool

[Encino]

"Adequate permission" means that the general public is welcome to search those areas. There is a vast difference between being legally allowed on the property, and searching for objects left by someone else - which may not be welcome.

 

Victoria Horne is hidden among live wires inside of a rusty lampost on private property. I dont see any "adequate permission" which allows the general public to root around in there. Just because the public may be allowed in the parking lot, does not make it okay for them to perform activities in which the property owner would disapprove of. An area of "public accomadation" is limited to certain activities.

 

The outside of a transformer box is safe. It is not safe to say that the electic company says its okay to molest it. It also is not safe to assume law enforcement would think you are not acting suspicious.

 

I really hate to see those type of hides. All it takes is one person to damage those wires and somebody could get the shock of their life. While most electrical equipment is safe, they can become unsafe easily when damaged. Stray Voltage shocks happen more often that people realize!

 

You are right about adequate permission, in a case like that. That light pole is owned by someone, therefore, is private property. I would be surprised if permission was granted to hide one there, just on the liability issue only (most insurance companies can and do deny claims when equipment is not used properly or for its intended purpose).

[+luvvinbird]

I've only ever discovered false utility plates, but they were placed on metal doors or steel lamp posts making them no more "electrical" than if they were placed on a tree. I agree that cache devices made to resemble real electrical equipment and placed on or very near to actual live equipment is not a good idea. Common sense should prevail.

[+tozainamboku]

The electric power industry has done a great job at educating the public about the risk of electrical equipment. They spend a great deal of money on public service announcements and outreach to schools. The reasons they do this are probably more due to liability concerns. In the rare instances that the safety measures in their equipment fails, they want to be able to show that if someone gets injured they certainly knew the risks and it's not the power company's fault.

 

I suspect that their message is effective because almost everyone has gotten a electrical shock at one time. Yet electrocutions are relatively rare. We can all imagine from our experience with minor shocks what high voltage and more current might do and the occasional news reports keep that in mind. We seldom evaluate that the chance of this happening is extremely small.

 

That said, the power companies have a issue with pad mount transformers. These are ubiquitous and in most jurisdictions are just sitting there where people can come in contact with them. The power companies now need to both say that these are safe and to continue with their traditional warning to stay away from electrical equipment. The mixed message becomes confusing. From a geocaching standpoint, however, it is clear that these are usually power company property and that it is doubtful that they would give permission for placing caches on this equipment. Power company workers who find caches on these transformers are well within their rights to remove the cache.

 

With regard to junction box and switch plate caches. I would hate to see these banned. When used correctly they are some the more clever caches. It's amazing how a muggle can see a plate where it doesn't belong and think nothing of it, but a experienced geocacher will know right away this is the cache. As far as kids opening up a real electrical box because they saw one used as a cache, I find this a bit of a stretch. The electric box cache is a great opportunity for the parent to educate the child not to play with any electrical equipment. The adult can explain how they could tell that the cache was fake and emphasize that if your are not sure you shouldn't touch. In fact most geocaching parents I know tell kids that if they think they find a cache like this to tell mommy or daddy and not to touch it themselves.

 

Are some geocachers too quick to take apart real boxes or real sprinklers after finding a fake one? Sadly we have seen or heard of cases like this. I feel the best approach is to educate geocachers. There should always be some way to tell that the cache is fake so you don't encourage people to take apart things that they shouldn't. However, if this becomes a real problem then IowaAdmin or another reviewer can ask more questions when he hears about a cache like this to ensure that finders won't be encouraged to mess with real items. It's likely that the section of the guidelines "1.2 Other Placement Considerations" would apply here.

[+addisonbr]

Are some geocachers too quick to take apart real boxes or real sprinklers after finding a fake one? Sadly we have seen or heard of cases like this.

I did this for the first time less than a week ago. I had searched for the cache when it was first published and couldn't find it. I went back on Christmas and from the logs knew I was looking for something clever (many people gave kudos to the hide) and right at GZ I saw what was clearly a fake sprinkler head. 15 seconds later I had it almost completely disassembled before I realized I was working on a real sprinkler.

 

As I was wrestling with the parts to get them back where they belonged, a guy walking his dogs passed by and yelled out, without breaking stride, "It's in the post. That one, behind the bench, closest to you."

 

It was.

 

I think I got the sprinkler fixed up right, but I can't be 100% sure.

[knowschad]

The biggest problem with most electrical type hides, be them fake electrical devices, or caches attached somehow to real electrical equipment, is that they are almost totally unoriginal. I suspect the hider doesn't realize this, and newbies that find the cache don't realize it, and either think that it was really cool and clever, or in a few cases, that they should be banned for being dangerous (not that any hiding styles are banned for that reason). But for anybody that has been caching for a year or so, they quickly become very routine, and can often be spotted by an experienced cacher from a long ways off.

[+Trucker Lee]

I have found LPCs near open face plates, but never with the wiring. Still, if the access plate is off the wire caps could be too. I don't walk away from them, but I do approach with caution.

 

By the way, folks. If you suspect there may be electricity around, swat with the back of your hand, never grasp. Muscle contraction will then work in your favor.

[diggingest_dogg616]

I look at it as "Hey, if you're not comfortable chasing after something that could hurt you, leave the electrical boxes alone." There's a few I've seen pics of that I wouldn't touch without a meter. And I -am- an electrician.

 

But, hey, make your own decisions. Just make educated ones. And don't blame anyone but yourself if things go badly.

+1

 

I'm an electrician that works for a major power company. Over the years (before I became active in the game), I've found probably half a dozen caches around electrical equipment I was working on. I normally just threw them away as trash. Geocaches have no business around electrical equipment, especially any that would be disguised as equipment themselves. If you want to set one up on your own property and willing to accept the liability (especially since your insurance probably won't cover it), then go for it, but keep it off privately owned equipment without permission.

 

Now that I'm in the game, if I find them around the equipment, I will remove them, and either turn it over to Lost Property or the Business Owner and email the cache owner where to pick it up. This would also go for any lamp post caches I find that are hidden inside the equipment.

 

Good for you!

If and when you decide to hide any caches, you certainly won't mind if someone/anyone takes exception to them and removes them, will you?

I've found many caches that I would just as rather toss into the desert...I'm not quite sure what it is that stops me from doing so...

It might be crass to throw them out or remove them, but if they're interfering with his job.... I don't have a job where a geocache would interfere (unless it was small enough for a dog to consume, bacon flavored, and poisoned), but if someway somehow something occurred that would put myself or the pets I take care of in jeopardy, then I'd remove it. If it didn't, then I'd leave it alone.

 

A cache out in the desert that sucks or is poorly maintained is really annoying and some people probably do throw them out, but they're rather unlikely to cause harm to a person just sitting there.

 

Problem with our society now-a-days, through laws and regulations we have eliminated the process of natural selection. Is it any wonder why the average IQ is under 100? Dangerous caches? Bring them on. The world is overpopulated anyways.

lolz, Geocaching Darwinism

Edited January 1, 2012 by diggingest_dogg616

[+alberg35]

I am the one who opened this topic.. and I was going to say no more about it.. as so many people seem to think it is just fine. More needs said however. I will agree that most electrical cabinets are safe when you touch them and yes it is rare for them to have a short. Do not doubt it will deliver an instant hello to Saint Peter if it does.I did not see any photos of electrical cabinets being sold as Geocache containers. I saw junction boxes with conduit attached (being shown up against a house) it looked very real to me. These are being sold as Geocache containers.They also showed swithplates and wall boxes. They looked pretty real.. and any child seeing an adult open one of these.. is going to think it is ok to try to open other ones. No children are supervised constantly and it may be later in there own back yard or at school or any number of other places that they may see another box and think it is ok to try and open it. There are millions of these junction boxes in back yards especialy around swimming pool pumps, older AC units, (and no folks they are not super safe,) the only thing between you and voltage that can kill you is that little plate on the front. About 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch behind that plate are connections carrying live power, a child would not know the differance and from what I am hearing a lot of others wouldn't either.I have found many junction boxes thru the years with lose covers, missing screws,etc. and it would be no problem for a child with out tools to get one to open on up.Engineers cannot idiot proof every thing and it is wise to leave eletrical fixtures alone. That is just common sense. I do not live in fear of shark attacks/lightning strikes/rouge electrical cabinets etc. I spent years in the military have jumped from airplanes, have been to dangerous places,have fought remote forest fires for the US Forest Service,I fly small airplanes, I was a line man for a few years as a younger fellow,I also have been an all around handy man and have upgraded lots of old fuse boxes to modern breaker boxes,and have done lots of home electrical repairs,I am a good mechanic,I can operate pretty much all heavy equipment,and I have been certified in all 50 states as a motorcycle instructor, I also have spent many many weeks alone in the woods. I know a little something about risk awareness and risk assesment and risk reduction. You adults can play with electrical equipment all you want if you get zapped you get zapped. Keep the children away from it until they can make their own choice. Do not set them up for failure by your own disregard of the risk. Good day.

 

Paragraphs

 

Paragraphs indeed! You are absolutly correct. I looked at what I had written and what you had written, you communicated more effectivly with one word than I did with an entire page.Plus it is pretty funny so you have me lmao at myself. Maybe I should have focused a little harder in class but god I found all that stuff so boring.

[+Coldgears]

Since when is danger an issue? There are no rules on danger. If you have permission to hide one in the middle of an electric death trap. You are, by all means, legally allowed to do so on this site...

[+GeoBain]

Since when is danger an issue? There are no rules on danger. If you have permission to hide one in the middle of an electric death trap. You are, by all means, legally allowed to do so on this site...

 

You are correct.

 

(But most of these types of caches would not be able to produce explicit permission.)

[Encino]

It might be crass to throw them out or remove them, but if they're interfering with his job.... I don't have a job where a geocache would interfere (unless it was small enough for a dog to consume, bacon flavored, and poisoned), but if someway somehow something occurred that would put myself or the pets I take care of in jeopardy, then I'd remove it. If it didn't, then I'd leave it alone.

 

 

Not when it is on company/private property without permission.

[AZcachemeister]

There is a cache in Arizona that looks something like this:

 

 

Yes, it's on the CO's private property (his gas station).

 

Let's try a different image.

Edited January 1, 2012 by AZcachemeister

[+Spoondoggled & Co.]

I'm an electrician that works for a major power company. Over the years (before I became active in the game), I've found probably half a dozen caches around electrical equipment I was working on. I normally just threw them away as trash. Geocaches have no business around electrical equipment, especially any that would be disguised as equipment themselves. If you want to set one up on your own property and willing to accept the liability (especially since your insurance probably won't cover it), then go for it, but keep it off privately owned equipment without permission.

 

Now that I'm in the game, if I find them around the equipment, I will remove them, and either turn it over to Lost Property or the Business Owner and email the cache owner where to pick it up. This would also go for any lamp post caches I find that are hidden inside the equipment.

 

Good for you!

If and when you decide to hide any caches, you certainly won't mind if someone/anyone takes exception to them and removes them, will you?

I've found many caches that I would just as rather toss into the desert...I'm not quite sure what it is that stops me from doing so...

 

You realize that as an employee of the power company that removing caches from the power company's equipment is no different than you removing a geocache someone has placed on your front porch without asking permission, don't you?

 

Spot on comment Geobain. I (Mrs. Spoondoggled) also work for a large power supplier. I've found and logged some caches hidden in the right-of way. GPS is used routinely on line patrol. I've never found a cache actually on a structure or too close to a substation perimeter, but I would do the same as the tech above with the encouragement to the CO to change the location away from energized equipment. I'd never toss it away though. I can guarantee you that our company has never given nor will ever give permission to anyone to hide on our privately-owned equipment and never will. The NERC rules that utility companies must abide by certainly apply here.

 

Back to the OP's observation though, seems an overreaction. I know you're stepping out of the conversation, but if you see this, remember you only saw these containers for sale, you didn't actually see one being used in a dangerous scenario. So don't jump to too many conclusions and also, common sense should rule when you're out seeking anyway. I would think that a switch box or service panel put confusingly close to the real thing would automatically solicit responses from cachers anyway, thus causing the cache to be pulled.

[+Spoondoggled & Co.]

There is a cache in Arizona that looks something like this:

 

 

Yes, it's on the CO's private property (his gas station).

 

Let's try a different image.

 

Now see, if the coordinates led us to this structure, we'd look all around, behind, under and so forth, but would never open it... unless there were specifics in the description that it was indeed a prop, and clearly no cables entering it.

 

I hang out around electricity on occasion, I've seen some pretty bad stuff (working in safety/training), including death by electrocution at 345kV.

 

That brings up another interesting place to hide... gas stations. I've never seen one with a cache in it.

[+t4e]

 

Problem with our society now-a-days, through laws and regulations we have eliminated the process of natural selection. Is it any wonder why the average IQ is under 100? Dangerous caches? Bring them on. The world is overpopulated anyways.

 

best reply in the whole thread

[+NeverSummer]

It's amazing to me how many problems we see in the forums could be resolved if the guidelines were changed to require explicit permission.

 

Now that would truly be the end of geocaching.

I suppose I feel lucky that I was able to find so many creative, fun, memorable, interesting, and non-lethal caches while I could. One of the benefits of starting early, I guess. The way folks get undies in bundles about so many types of caches that are "dangerous" (and hearing about a reviewer inserting personal preference on the process), it seems like some folks want to see the sterilization of the game. That will be when one might see that often discussed new, less restrictive site for listing geocaches take off...finally.

 

INTERESTING FACT: One does more damage to the Earth posting a single post on the forum than a years worth of randomly thrashing through the forest.

 

INTERESTING FACT #2: Supporting panty companies by purchasing a single pair of panties does more damage to the Earth than a lifetimes worth of randomly thrashing through the forest.

 

INTERESTING FACT #3: Breathing does more damage to the Earth than a 6 months worth of randomly thrashing through the forest.

 

MAYBE IT'S TIME FOR SUICIDE, save the planet!

[+NeverSummer]

 

Now see, if the coordinates led us to this structure, we'd look all around, behind, under and so forth, but would never open it... unless there were specifics in the description that it was indeed a prop, and clearly no cables entering it.

 

I hang out around electricity on occasion, I've seen some pretty bad stuff (working in safety/training), including death by electrocution at 345kV.

 

That brings up another interesting place to hide... gas stations. I've never seen one with a cache in it.

 

I agree. This is where someone would have to be asked if they are trying to hide the cache from muggles or from the cache hunters. If they aren't describing some sort of hint that it is that huge electrical box, they aren't hiding it from muggles...they are hiding it from the cache seeker.

 

So, if they don't give a hint that would make me want to open the box (or if it isn't mentioned in a previous log), I'm not opening the box. That's just me. If I kept looking over and over and can't make the find, I'd email the owner or a previous finder that I may know. Then I'd open the box, if prompted.

 

But, people aren't very patient to contact an owner to be sure it is safe. And some owners aren't kind enough to offer suggestions or hints when asked. And then, people can't handle not "finding" that cache, so they go back and may not use sound judgement--thrashing GZ, opening everything in sight, using tools to pry or whatever. And then people break things or get hurt. I really don't want other's impatience to change the game for me, athankyouverymuch.

[diggingest_dogg616]

It might be crass to throw them out or remove them, but if they're interfering with his job.... I don't have a job where a geocache would interfere (unless it was small enough for a dog to consume, bacon flavored, and poisoned), but if someway somehow something occurred that would put myself or the pets I take care of in jeopardy, then I'd remove it. If it didn't, then I'd leave it alone.

 

 

Not when it is on company/private property without permission.

?? I'm not entirely sure I understand.... If it's on company property without permission, and you are a part of that company, then it should be okay to remove it if it is somehow interfering or otherwise offensive and notify the cache owner. If it's your property and you didn't give permission, then same deal.

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't think I'm really grasping your comment (I seem to be having a rather difficult time this morning!)

 

Thank you

[+B+L]

On-topic, can anyone explain why people from the other "safety" threads have not chimed in here?

Because post #46 said everything that needed to be said about this topic.

[+cache_test_dummies]

I will say no more about it.

New to geocaching and the forums, STUNNED by something you found on the Internet, emotional opening post about a well known (to these forums) high-octane issue, quick stop-by-later-post to say you won't say more about it.

 

Got it!

 

Drew you out of OT for 2 posts, didn't it?

Did not!

 

 

 

 

 

This one makes 3.

[knowschad]

It's amazing to me how many problems we see in the forums could be resolved if the guidelines were changed to require explicit permission.

 

Now that would truly be the end of geocaching.

I suppose I feel lucky that I was able to find so many creative, fun, memorable, interesting, and non-lethal caches while I could. One of the benefits of starting early, I guess. The way folks get undies in bundles about so many types of caches that are "dangerous" (and hearing about a reviewer inserting personal preference on the process), it seems like some folks want to see the sterilization of the game. That will be when one might see that often discussed new, less restrictive site for listing geocaches take off...finally.

 

INTERESTING FACT: One does more damage to the Earth posting a single post on the forum than a years worth of randomly thrashing through the forest.

 

INTERESTING FACT #2: Supporting panty companies by purchasing a single pair of panties does more damage to the Earth than a lifetimes worth of randomly thrashing through the forest.

 

INTERESTING FACT #3: Breathing does more damage to the Earth than a 6 months worth of randomly thrashing through the forest.

 

MAYBE IT'S TIME FOR SUICIDE, save the planet!

 

Hey, cut him some slack. It was New Year's Eve.

[knowschad]

I'm an electrician that works for a major power company. Over the years (before I became active in the game), I've found probably half a dozen caches around electrical equipment I was working on. I normally just threw them away as trash. Geocaches have no business around electrical equipment, especially any that would be disguised as equipment themselves. If you want to set one up on your own property and willing to accept the liability (especially since your insurance probably won't cover it), then go for it, but keep it off privately owned equipment without permission.

 

Now that I'm in the game, if I find them around the equipment, I will remove them, and either turn it over to Lost Property or the Business Owner and email the cache owner where to pick it up. This would also go for any lamp post caches I find that are hidden inside the equipment.

Nice to find a hidden gem among all the sneering and insults. Thanks for posting this.

 

"all the sneering and insults"? I think I might have seen a couple of posts that could be described that way, but the vast majority are quite thoughtful and respectful. I'm not sure I would say the same about yours.

[+B+L]

I'm an electrician that works for a major power company. Over the years (before I became active in the game), I've found probably half a dozen caches around electrical equipment I was working on. I normally just threw them away as trash. Geocaches have no business around electrical equipment, especially any that would be disguised as equipment themselves. If you want to set one up on your own property and willing to accept the liability (especially since your insurance probably won't cover it), then go for it, but keep it off privately owned equipment without permission.

 

Now that I'm in the game, if I find them around the equipment, I will remove them, and either turn it over to Lost Property or the Business Owner and email the cache owner where to pick it up. This would also go for any lamp post caches I find that are hidden inside the equipment.

Nice to find a hidden gem among all the sneering and insults. Thanks for posting this.

 

"all the sneering and insults"? I think I might have seen a couple of posts that could be described that way, but the vast majority are quite thoughtful and respectful. I'm not sure I would say the same about yours.

I rest my case.