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Do the reviewers use common sense


geekyninja

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I have just had 3 caches rejected for the reason of them being in a science place of interest, and the fact they are in eye line of school gates. The problem i have with this is the fact the ones in theses so called "science places of intreast" is that two of them are in carparks and not directly in the forest. Yes on the really bad magic maps they show up in them areas but how are they affected. Also the one with the school its not directly in eye shot of the school gates as if not any caches with in 200m on that road would be in eye shot of the school. Theses was placed with my mum with me who found more than 1600 caches and have found them in worst places. I placed all theses caches with more local knowledge and with the school one its placed on a bootsale sites gates with their permission and also i work for the company who operates it.

 

Do theses reviewers actually have any common sense as with the forest ones my local council will just see me as wasting their time

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Yes we do use common sense.

 

Have you considered that the land the car park is on might be owned by the same landowner as the SSSI??? This could be why the Magic map indicates it as such.

 

The landowner will not be happy if we publicise that location as a cache and they haven't given permission.

 

Paul

Geohatter

Volunteer UK Reviewer & Forum Mod - geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources http://www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books http://support.Groundspeak.com//index.php

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I have a cache on an SSSI - once I'd approached the landowner and explained what it was all about he was perfectly happy for it to be there. The reviewer was extremely helpful with his feedback and the whole thing only took a few days to resolve to everyone's satisfaction.

 

The rules are there for a reason and it's not hard to follow them. Knocking the reviewers on the forum isn't the smartest way to go about things. Talk to the reviewer and get his/her help. Find out who the landowner is and approach them politely, explain the game, reassure them that you won't be damaging anything and ask permission. Simple. If you get it then all well and good, pass the contact info to the reviewer or photograph/scan any written permission and before you know it, your cache will be listed. If the landowner says no, then find somewhere else.

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Just to clarify, as no doubt a lot of geocachers will be unaware of these special permission requirements; there are two distinct types of SSSI. Biological (where the land is protected from operations that could damage the important flora and fauna) and Geological (protected from damage to the geology). So if you wanted to do something which involves using a bulldozer or digger on a Geological SSSI (for instance), the relevant scientists would be consulted and consent would be required before you could start digging. You might be allowed to dig anyway but if there are important fossil beds or unusual strata you'd have to be careful not to disturb them, or to build something that would inhibit access for scientific study. An obvious example is that you request to extract stone from a disused quarry which is used to study unusual rock strata, and you can go ahead as long as you leave one area undisturbed and don't block the footpath.

 

From a geocaching point of view however, even if you're placing a nano on the car park railings of the industrial estate it counts as potentially damaging to the rock strata; until it's been checked. Which might seem an anomaly, but unfortunately the reviewers have no knowledge of SSSIs except their location so cannot make a judgement. As far as they know you've placed a cache in the middle of a meadow of rare plants, so they have to get you to check with the SSSI experts before they can allow you to go ahead. If they didn't make you check, no doubt an unaware geocacher would cause a lot of trouble by sticking a cache right in the middle of the geology and cause annoyance to the scientists.

And of course, it's geocaching.com that gets the negative publicity. So it's common sense that the reviewers force you to consult the authorities.

 

The bad news is that it's no good just asking the landowner. You will also have to get permission from the SSSI management (Natural England, in England). The good news is that they're used to geocaching requests and seem to me to be pretty keen to cooperate.

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Just to clarify, as no doubt a lot of geocachers will be unaware of these special permission requirements; there are two distinct types of SSSI. Biological (where the land is protected from operations that could damage the important flora and fauna) and Geological (protected from damage to the geology).

 

and also different levels... we have one near us... the local water is level 1 (To protect the wetland birds) the woods around it are level two, because they screen the level one as above... under GC rules both apply at an equal level.. just for info...

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Thank You for clarifying this. I didn't mean to take your discussion off topic but being from Canada I didn't understand the term. Heading to the UK in few weeks so I've been creeping your forums :) Looks to me like your reviewers use quite a lot common sense!

 

Edit - Because I can't type

Edited by Treknschmidt
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Just to clarify, as no doubt a lot of geocachers will be unaware of these special permission requirements; there are two distinct types of SSSI. Biological (where the land is protected from operations that could damage the important flora and fauna) and Geological (protected from damage to the geology).

 

and also different levels... we have one near us... the local water is level 1 (To protect the wetland birds) the woods around it are level two, because they screen the level one as above... under GC rules both apply at an equal level.. just for info...

Do you have a reference which explains the "levels"? I've never heard of it, and there's no mention on the Natural England website. Perhaps it's new?

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Just to clarify, as no doubt a lot of geocachers will be unaware of these special permission requirements; there are two distinct types of SSSI. Biological (where the land is protected from operations that could damage the important flora and fauna) and Geological (protected from damage to the geology).

 

and also different levels... we have one near us... the local water is level 1 (To protect the wetland birds) the woods around it are level two, because they screen the level one as above... under GC rules both apply at an equal level.. just for info...

Do you have a reference which explains the "levels"? I've never heard of it, and there's no mention on the Natural England website. Perhaps it's new?

 

They were there in 2009 when we set our Eccup Reservoir Series. The water was level one and the screening trees were level two (ie not the reason for the SSSi but to protect the water which was the reason for it.) This was shown clearly on the maps for the area.

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The problem is that i cant see is how if its a car park that its covered. One of the things i don't get is that its going to be damaged in the area as its on a main road between two local towns. Also speaking with my local council before about it you get a bit bounced around between the corp of london and epping forest distict council. 95% the time there are council units parked in this space using the mobile burger unit in the pub

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One of the things i don't get is that its going to be damaged in the area as its on a main road between two local towns.

You're confusing reality with a land designation - that's why you don't get it. :DB)

 

Reviewers can't know all details about a site, and their argument is they are not qualified to rule whether a location is potentially destructive or not, so they have to apply the 'guidelines' aka rules, and if your site is within the shady bit of the map they will ask for evidence that you have permission.

 

The other point is that caches are supposed to have permission anyway, so whether it's a car park or not, in theory you've already asked someone if it's ok, so all you have to do is give the reviewer the details. Now you may suspect that many caches don't in fact have permission for being there, and you may well be right, I couldn't possibly comment.

 

So, yes, permission is a thorny issue and one where the difference between theory and practise is greater in practise than in theory. However, within the limited scope for interpretation, reviewers are generally a very helpful bunch who do use many senses, common and otherwise, trying to ensure cache placement doesn't cause mayhem and destruction, whilst keeping cachers happy in their hobby. Not an easy job at times I'm sure. B)

 

Best bet is to either, find another site, or find someone to ask if it's ok. It doesn't have to involve Natural England or whoever, as long as the land manager is happy as they are responsible for what takes place on their land, given the legal designation it's under. Yes, if they aren't sure about that rare clump of orchids + Tupperware, they can ask Nat England for advice.

 

Good luck! :D

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The problem is that i cant see is how if its a car park that its covered. One of the things i don't get is that its going to be damaged in the area as its on a main road between two local towns. Also speaking with my local council before about it you get a bit bounced around between the corp of london and epping forest distict council. 95% the time there are council units parked in this space using the mobile burger unit in the pub

I would like to think that there is something really interesting located in this car park? Other than a burger van that is! If it turns out that it's just a car park, why do you want to place a cache there? Please don't place caches just because you can. Place them so that you can take people to places of interest. If this particular location is going to get people going, hey I never knew that was there? Then go and get that permission, if it doesn't then walk away find somewhere better to place a cache!!

 

Sorry to have taken this off topic, but I thought it was worth pointing out.

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I would like to think that there is something really interesting located in this car park? Other than a burger van that is! If it turns out that it's just a car park, why do you want to place a cache there? Please don't place caches just because you can. Place them so that you can take people to places of interest. If this particular location is going to get people going, hey I never knew that was there? Then go and get that permission, if it doesn't then walk away find somewhere better to place a cache!!

Thanks for being brave enough to say that - I was going to, but chickened out :mellow: .

 

Rgds, Andy

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It doesn't have to involve Natural England or whoever, as long as the land manager is happy as they are responsible for what takes place on their land, given the legal designation it's under. Yes, if they aren't sure about that rare clump of orchids + Tupperware, they can ask Nat England for advice.

Are you sure that's the case? I thought that for an SSSI it's no good just showing that you have permission from the land manager. After all, the manager may hate the SSSI and not care about it one jot. If it's a car park or rubbish dump or factory it might be in the SSSI for good reason but the owner of the land may have no clue about the geology. If it's rare orchids then it's more likely to be a Nature Reserve than a SSSI, and that's a different rule anyway.

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Basicly its near a pub that is just before the M25. Its one them places that you half expect to find a quick cache and dash with a few pubs near it.

 

the other problem is i placed a cache on a site of a bootsale where i work with their permission and i know the farmer for the land and i have a cache on his other site as well. The problem comes that as its with in like 40m from a school where you can see the gates from the cache and most their fencing has stuff grown up it blocking the view of like the playground, there is worry over people looking at the school there. yet the school gates are not as clear as it shows on a out of date street view image.

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The problem comes that as its with in like 40m from a school where you can see the gates from the cache and most their fencing has stuff grown up it blocking the view of like the playground, there is worry over people looking at the school there. yet the school gates are not as clear as it shows on a out of date street view image.

The problem is:

If it's near a school, parents, teachers, and any residents that live nearby, get concerned about any 'strangers' loitering around the school and area around the school.

 

Doesn't have to be 'in sight' of the school gates. Near is close enough to cause concern.

Edited by Bear and Ragged
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Basicly its near a pub that is just before the M25. Its one them places that you half expect to find a quick cache and dash with a few pubs near it.

In my opinion that falls into the category of placing a cache for the sake of placing a cache. Don't worry there are numbers cachers who do disagree with me. :huh:

 

I think even cache & dashes should have something worthwhile to visit, not just because they are near a pub and a road junction.

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the problem is out my way there are a very low cache population. if i was to remove all my caches in Loughton this would leave us to only have about a handfull caches in a area. they not all place with stuff of interest but more placed so new cachers can find them and hopefully go off and explore new places. at least 75% of my caches are not placed without any interest of why they are there. when i have placed one cache of interest such as a blue sign, people dont visit it as its one on its own. instead i have to create a group with say 3 other filler caches of little intreast. i had a few in the canvey island, essex that had very little to do with any interest but was more in memory of some one who died which a few had funny storys. I would put more out with in my area but the rules that are issued for cache owners do not allow this to happen.

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Sorry geekyninja but just because an area doesn't have caches, doesn't mean that it should end up getting some. I live in Edinburgh and there is a very large area in the North of Edinburgh and a slightly smaller but still large area in the South East, that have little or no caches. There is a very good reason for this, and that is because these areas are a dump and have no attraction to them what so ever.

 

So the sole reason of that there isn't a cache there, is in my opinion a very poor reason to place a cache. It is cachers with this frame of mind that are leading to this pastime being not what it should be. What I think Geocaching is, is a free tourist guide taking you to interesting locations that you may never have gone to without it. Whether that be for visitors to your area or locals it doesn't matter.

 

Another way to look at it is that you WILL gain a reputation for the quality of caches and locations that you take people to. I suppose it now all depends on how you want to build your reputation within your local and wider caching community?

 

Sorry to have taken this off topic. To keep it slightly on topic I think our reviewers do a blinder of a job. They may and do get it wrong sometimes, but they always try their best, and you can't ask for any more than that.

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I may now take the time for any local caches or people visiting mine to say once they have three did not finds they will be removed nor once they need maintenance as the views so far have matched the views of a lot of local cachers who leave some pretty nasty logs that have been deleted from the caches. the cachers with a low few are normally happy with the placements and the fact that a area has a few to make traveling worth it for them. but as soon as people seem to get past 300 they get very judgmental about caches. as a owner i think its time that i stop managing them and placing them as my judgements must be totally out and i got better things now to get on with like my uni course

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as soon as people seem to get past 300 they get very judgmental about caches

 

I think what you're saying is that when people have had some experience of a bunch of caches, then they start to get opinions about which are better and which are worse.

 

Sounds sensible to me.

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ive had a range of my caches get negative feedback yet they been in some beautful locations but some times the conidtions have changed and when i visited the cache to review if its still in the right situation they been how i left them

 

Looking at placed cache numbers you and I seem to have similar values.

I'm not going to gloat that I'm better than anyone else but what does feature greatly in my thoughts is the number of favourite points my caches amass. The reasoning being if seekers have to find 10 caches to be able to award my cache a favourite point, what standard have those other caches been?

 

I'm by no means of University type of education, I left school at age 15, now almost collecting my bus pass, I call geocaching my university of life as I have learnt a lot of things I never learnt through the education system.

 

I get little negative feedback on my caches but as soon as I do it would spur me into action to both question why and to rectify the situation as soon as possible. I was never a good risk assessor, as it's so easy to write it upon your own capabilities where as you should write it in respect of the least capable. So we do occasionally spit feathers when we read drsolly questioning why I considered binoculars worthwhile on a particular cache, not everyone has the same capabilities, including myself where eyesight is concerned.

 

As you said yourself, surroundings do change and indeed I lifted one of my caches very recently, finders were saying how well it was hidden but to me it was not a patch on how it was first set, so I uplifted it.

 

Your caches are a little out of my normal caching territory and with around 150 solved puzzles to harvest also thousands of identified "choice" caches and areas identified from well written cache pages in the queue to visit, convince me why I should visit your area or caches, as at the moment those other caches just seem to be more tempting. :D

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Some of the comments seem unduly harsh and not in the supportive vein these forums usually provide.

 

I can confirm that cachers who get over 300 or so (middle ground) seem to be very judgemental, and expect everything to be to their taste. Yet people with thousands seem to have gotten over that and are friendly, supportive and encouraging in their comments. (Obviously exceptions to everything, people will insist on being people).

 

And I do feel for someone trying to bring caching into an area without existing caches, and providing just one at a POI is not going to bring people in so adding a couple more to make the detour worthwhile I totally understand. (Perhaps series? I'm just leaving at 06:50 to travel over an hour by car to do a series - the promise of a nice walk and 20 odd caches in a row is getting me out of bed again)

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....... as a owner i think its time that i stop managing them and placing them as my judgements must be totally out and i got better things now to get on with like my uni course

I hope your university work is more intelligible and makes proper use of capitalisation, punctuation and grammar than your forum postings. They are very difficult to read.

 

As for your caches, I've never done one nor am I likely to given our respective locations. However a quick scan of a a dozen or more cache pages I am struck by the lack of detail and imagination. I guess they might be suitable for "numbers hounds" but count me out.

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And I do feel for someone trying to bring caching into an area without existing caches, and providing just one at a POI is not going to bring people in so adding a couple more to make the detour worthwhile I totally understand.
Most of this comes down to what we believe is the more important - a good quality cache, or just the chance to add one more to the numbers.

 

We have over 100,000 caches in the UK. When we talk about areas "not having any caches" we are talking about relatively small areas. If you are from the "quality cache" group there is absolutely no need to colour in these areas just to "fill them up".

 

Numbers can be fun, and can add an extra dimension to caching. But in my view, once they become the REASON for caching they have turned into something that drags down the overall quality of the game.

 

We already have plenty of caches in the UK. I would much prefer to see people spend the equivalent time, money and effort to place smaller numbers of higher quality caches. Unfortunately what I see is a gradual trend in the wrong direction.

 

Rgds, Andy

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first of all i will point out for the person who decided to attack my spelling and use of English i am servery dyslexic and in some sense your comment was extremely offensive. So far all theses messages have proven that most people who this has now became a life style for forget that people who like me when i started i had 1 cache with in reach of me and if you don't drive its hard to get to some. Mine made up a route that if done right they could get off at loughton station and walk it to theydon bois or debden station. I feel there are to many "cache Police" around who try and enforce a guidance. The fact one my caches i got to remove a very key bit of information that its located on the site of a car bootsale is more surprising as i would of thought that be a key spoiler or if local cachers go to access it they would know its there. its not like ive put "countryside promotions Sunday boot sale upshire" which would be commercial.

 

with regards to the favor point system its a pointless system as people just log and go. only cache owners who are cache policers are worried about the points. If your like me or my mum we log off our mobiles / mobile based devices. so we cant place it.

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From the guidelines:

Commercial caches are disallowed. As a general rule, reviewers will not publish cache pages that seem commercial. A commercial cache has one or more of the following characteristics:

 

It requires the finder to go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

It contains links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political agendas or social agendas.

It contains the logo of a business or organization, including non-profit organizations.

The name of a business or commercial product is on the cache page.

On very rare occasions, Groundspeak makes an exception for a commercial cache. Arrangements are made before placement. If your cache is commercial in any way, please contact Groundspeak for clarification about how to comply with cache listing guidelines.

You can read the full guidelines here: http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=307

 

Andy

Red Duster

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

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but the cache does not invlove any of that. Next one to every one. how do i delete all my caches quickly as i feel the guidelines of this site i can not agree with any more.

You can't! Go to each individual cache page and select the 'archive' option. Once you have archived all of your caches please go to each and every location and remove what will become geolitter. This isn't a rule or guideline, it's the proper thing to do, and as the caches will be no longer listed and used then it equates to no more than actual littering. Especially when you have proven that there is a good chance none of them have permission.

 

I have to say that it is a pity that you have taken the hump with what I have viewed as constructive criticism (grammar jibe aside). If you decide to continue to search for caches, I hope you enjoy your finds.

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but the cache does not invlove any of that. Next one to every one. how do i delete all my caches quickly as i feel the guidelines of this site i can not agree with any more.

I think you ought to just step back and have a think if you really want to do this. I always say to people that they need to cache by their own rules, some people like numbers, drive bys, series it's all down to you.

 

Posting on the forum is always going to generate strong views and you'd be foolish to think that everyone is going to think like you do.

 

I do however agree with most things said, I think a lot of people just place caches because there is a gap on the map not because it is a nice place to bring people. I want people to get more from a cache I place rather than just a smiley. I want then to have a nice experience they are more likely to leave a nice log which is one reasons I place caches.

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theses problems have been going on for a while. ive had issues with both reviewers for the area and had enough of some the logs i get from cachers. i thought it be best to remove my caches and place them when the caching world has grown up a bit

Surely that's got to make you think how can I improve the quality/locations of my caches. Give people what they want and they will leave good logs and not complain.

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I am afraid that it is not the 'Caching World' that needs to grow up, I think you need to realise that not everything or anybody is this world is perfect. If you get involved in a game/hobby that involves people of all ages and from all walks of life then you will find some who will criticise you for what you say or do.

I have to say that your approach to cache hiding is not ideal, to my way of thinking, but if that is how you wish to hide them you have the right to do so. With regards to the phrase 'Cache Police' I feel that is unjust as the comments have been mainly about what other people look for in a cache nd the types they like to find.

If you cannot take the comments that are written in your cache logs then look at what is being said and see if you can make changes so as there is not reason to complain.

With regards to the reviewers, these people have a difficult task as they have to comply with the guidelines laid down by Groundspeak as well as all the comments from various cachers.

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Well excuses the pun but when it comes to where i am its a gray day http://www.geocaching.com/map/beta/default.aspx?lat=51.65765&lng=0.07257 in total about 46 caches gone in Loughton, Theydon bois and caveny island. May they return i dont know. Due to the pressure of other cachers it appears on reviewers and the american guidelines there was going to be a another 100 caches placed in the new year as part of a cache route but now that plan is being scrapped

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Oh dear, I decided to have a quick look at one or two of the caches and found one that had been Archived and then Archived after you made a visit and a rather stern note.

In the hint you said one thing (grounded left) and then in your note you wrote another (Look to the bush up high more) those two statements seem to contradict themselves.

I can also see where one or two local cachers might take the 'hump' with the wording of that particular note.

It seems that due to your local reviewer not publishing a cache of yours you want Groundspeak to change the person who reviews your caches, I am sorry but I don't think that will happen.

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theses problems have been going on for a while. ive had issues with both reviewers for the area and had enough of some the logs i get from cachers. i thought it be best to remove my caches and place them when the caching world has grown up a bit

 

Until you posted that I was minded to at least consider what you were saying. But when you assume that any conflict means that Everybody Else has to grow up you blow your own credibility clean out of the water.

 

People want different things from caching. If you put a cache out you have to accept that some people hate micros, some people would rather you put 8 film pots out than an 8-stage multi leading to a lunch box, some will obsess about the fact you wrote "your" when you should have written "you're" and so on. The simple fact is if you don't want to deal with peoples' comments the only way to avoid it is not to place caches at all. So in that regard, while many comments may be unhelpful, you are perhaps the one who needs to "grow up a bit".

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