After tragic death of experienced geocacher - what needs to change?

[+ArcherDragoon]

IBTL.....I have nothing else to add.

This thread has been a great discussion...and it has remained a discussion for the vast majority of the thread. I don't see the reason to post something such as you did...

 

As for the thread itself...yes, we have had disagreements and agreements, but it has been a great discussion. With any such discussion, we will always have agreements and disagreements...that is what makes for a great discussion and unless the OP asks for a close of this thread, I don't see a reason for it at this time.

[veit]

IBTL.....I have nothing else to add.

This thread has been a great discussion...and it has remained a discussion for the vast majority of the thread. I don't see the reason to post something such as you did...

 

As for the thread itself...yes, we have had disagreements and agreements, but it has been a great discussion. With any such discussion, we will always have agreements and disagreements...that is what makes for a great discussion and unless the OP asks for a close of this thread, I don't see a reason for it at this time.

 

I won't - in fact I hope that more cachers will come in here over time and bring new ideas.

[+B+L]

IBTL.....I have nothing else to add.

Such an obnoxious game. The Off Topic forum should be like Hotel California, you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave.

[+JesandTodd]

IBTL.....I have nothing else to add.

Such an obnoxious game. The Off Topic forum should be like Hotel California, you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave.

 

Ouch!

I agree the IBTL here was tasteless. This is a spot for people who DO have something to add.

 

I also agree this has been a great discussion and both sides-even the one I disagree with-have been thoughtful and deserve to be heard. A kid died for Pete's Sake!

[+JesandTodd]

Willi, a very experienced cacher falls 80 feet into a very cold river. He didnt die immediately. He was alive long enough to pull himself to the edge, where he most likely screamed for help at the top of his lungs. Being 21 and in the prime of his life he died all alone, experiencing extreme pain in the dark, bathed in freezing water with multiple injuries at an age when most people are thinking about their future. He knew he was dying and probably thought about what his family would think. He would never hear his mothers voice, or see any of his friends again. Bye Willi. Groundspeak has your money.

As a nurse and former EMT, I've seen my fair share of head injuries. And I can say that I worried that your above description might be true. I've actually thought of him alone, hurting, wet and cold in that creek.

I didn't know he crawled to the edge of the creek....

[+GeoBain]

223,000 out of 1,600,000 total means that 1 out of every 6 caches placed thoughout the world is in Germany.

 

With caches being openly listed in areas that are illegal, the death rate would naturally be high. Illegal activity breeds unsafe actions.

 

 

What disturbs me, is why are caches in illegal areas being published in Germany at a higher frequency than other places? From a legal standpoint, is it because someone in Germany would be unlikely or impossible to sue someone in the United States? Is it also because Germany has such a large revenue, that Groundspeak would be unlikely to put a damper on illegal activity for fear of a backlash, creating a loss of revenue?

 

Willi, a very experienced cacher falls 80 feet into a very cold river. He didnt die immediately. He was alive long enough to pull himself to the edge, where he most likely screamed for help at the top of his lungs. Being 21 and in the prime of his life he died all alone, experiencing extreme pain in the dark, bathed in freezing water with multiple injuries at an age when most people are thinking about their future. He knew he was dying and probably thought about what his family would think. He would never hear his mothers voice, or see any of his friends again. Bye Willi. Groundspeak has your money.

 

Excellent post had you left out "Groundspeak has your money."

[veit]

I think all of us who post here and can just slightly imagine in any way what those last minutes must have been like for him, and what his family is going through, will agree that any minute we spend here thinking about how to avoid this in the future is not wasted time. Even if the outcome isn't any perfect solution.

 

Some of you might want to know that Willi's family sent out an email today and also posted it as a log on the cache page: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LUID=b0f99f18-e51b-4697-ae65-2a28c4e67b3b

[veit]

What disturbs me, is why are caches in illegal areas being published in Germany at a higher frequency than other places? From a legal standpoint, is it because someone in Germany would be unlikely or impossible to sue someone in the United States? Is it also because Germany has such a large revenue, that Groundspeak would be unlikely to put a damper on illegal activity for fear of a backlash, creating a loss of revenue?

 

Willi, a very experienced cacher falls 80 feet into a very cold river. He didnt die immediately. He was alive long enough to pull himself to the edge, where he most likely screamed for help at the top of his lungs. Being 21 and in the prime of his life he died all alone, experiencing extreme pain in the dark, bathed in freezing water with multiple injuries at an age when most people are thinking about their future. He knew he was dying and probably thought about what his family would think. He would never hear his mothers voice, or see any of his friends again. Bye Willi. Groundspeak has your money.

 

Excellent post had you left out "Groundspeak has your money."

 

He was emphasizing the point that I already made earlier in the thread. No matter how you feel whether caches in illegal places are ok or not, it is obvious that there is no clear line from Groundspeak about the issue (yes, it's in the guidelines, but it's not enforced), and it's absolutely reasonable to wonder why.

[+niraD]

I think all of us who post here and can just slightly imagine in any way what those last minutes must have been like for him, and what his family is going through, will agree that any minute we spend here thinking about how to avoid this in the future is not wasted time. Even if the outcome isn't any perfect solution.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I can very well imagine what he went through and what his family is going through. But time we spend here thinking about how to avoid this in the future can easily be wasted time.

 

Consider the effort required to reduce the fatality rate in a relatively safe activity by a modest 1 death per year. If there are already only 10 deaths per decade, then it may require herculean efforts (or as fizzymagic suggested, a complete ban on the activity). How many more lives would be saved if that effort had been directed towards improving the safety of an activity that isn't as safe, perhaps one where there are more than 1000 deaths per year?

 

Also, if the "imperfect solution" merely creates the illusion of safety without actually improving safety, then risk compensation may kick in and the fatality rate may actually increase. People may incorrectly think they are safer, and thus be more willing to take risks.

[+GeoBain]

What disturbs me, is why are caches in illegal areas being published in Germany at a higher frequency than other places? From a legal standpoint, is it because someone in Germany would be unlikely or impossible to sue someone in the United States? Is it also because Germany has such a large revenue, that Groundspeak would be unlikely to put a damper on illegal activity for fear of a backlash, creating a loss of revenue?

 

Willi, a very experienced cacher falls 80 feet into a very cold river. He didnt die immediately. He was alive long enough to pull himself to the edge, where he most likely screamed for help at the top of his lungs. Being 21 and in the prime of his life he died all alone, experiencing extreme pain in the dark, bathed in freezing water with multiple injuries at an age when most people are thinking about their future. He knew he was dying and probably thought about what his family would think. He would never hear his mothers voice, or see any of his friends again. Bye Willi. Groundspeak has your money.

 

Excellent post had you left out "Groundspeak has your money."

 

He was emphasizing the point that I already made earlier in the thread. No matter how you feel whether caches in illegal places are ok or not, it is obvious that there is no clear line from Groundspeak about the issue (yes, it's in the guidelines, but it's not enforced), and it's absolutely reasonable to wonder why.

 

On this side of the pond, when trespassing issues are brought to a reviewer's attention, it IS enforced.

 

A reviewer generally has no special knowledge about tresspassing issues at the time of publishing the cache. Therefore, it is our responsibility to bring it to their attention.

 

The issue with this particular incident seems to be that no one notified Groundspeak of the tresspassing issue. And if they had, it seems there is a high likelihood that it would have been ignored.

 

Therefore, it seems that the local community needs to change their attitude towards tresspassing and very likely Groundspeak needs to re-evaluate the local reviewers.

[+Otis.Gore]

OK, here I go...

 

I will probably get my head bashed in for saying this, but I just need to get this out, and it seems like you guys might need a scapegoat, so here I am.

 

I am from Germany (pretty close to Pirna to be exact) and I sarted my caching career with all those illegal caches.

I love them, but they now started closing them all down, and I hate it.

In hindsight, I probably did a lot of things in these caches that could have killed me, but I was (and am) willing to take that risk.

 

And to be honest, I still feel that if all you did till now is collect some micros close to a street or in the woods, but have never been in a abandoned powerplant with nothing but some flashlights, 2 buddies, a lot of adrinalin, climbing gear and medipacks searching for a 14 stage multi, crawling into the deepest holes in the basement or walking on a catwalk under the ceiling while you have to watch not to be spotted by police, don't talk to me about how adventurous geocaching can be.

 

There, I have hereby outed myself as a part of the so called problem in the german caching society, but I am proud that I have done all this.

 

So go ahead and tell me how evil and stupid I am...I will never forget the feeling of the old days, when beeing a cacher was something special and required balls.

[+JesandTodd]

OK, here I go...

 

I will probably get my head bashed in for saying this, but I just need to get this out, and it seems like you guys might need a scapegoat, so here I am.

 

I am from Germany (pretty close to Pirna to be exact) and I sarted my caching career with all those illegal caches.

I love them, but they now started closing them all down, and I hate it.

In hindsight, I probably did a lot of things in these caches that could have killed me, but I was (and am) willing to take that risk.

 

And to be honest, I still feel that if all you did till now is collect some micros close to a street or in the woods, but have never been in a abandoned powerplant with nothing but some flashlights, 2 buddies, a lot of adrinalin, climbing gear and medipacks searching for a 14 stage multi, crawling into the deepest holes in the basement or walking on a catwalk under the ceiling while you have to watch not to be spotted by police, don't talk to me about how adventurous geocaching can be.

 

There, I have hereby outed myself as a part of the so called problem in the german caching society, but I am proud that I have done all this.

 

So go ahead and tell me how evil and stupid I am...I will never forget the feeling of the old days, when beeing a cacher was something special and required balls.

 

Actually, we are here to try to evaluate this accident and find ways to prevent it. Not come online to be a martyr and beg to be called names. Please contribute to this discussion constructively.

[+ArcherDragoon]

What disturbs me, is why are caches in illegal areas being published in Germany at a higher frequency than other places? From a legal standpoint, is it because someone in Germany would be unlikely or impossible to sue someone in the United States? Is it also because Germany has such a large revenue, that Groundspeak would be unlikely to put a damper on illegal activity for fear of a backlash, creating a loss of revenue?

 

Willi, a very experienced cacher falls 80 feet into a very cold river. He didnt die immediately. He was alive long enough to pull himself to the edge, where he most likely screamed for help at the top of his lungs. Being 21 and in the prime of his life he died all alone, experiencing extreme pain in the dark, bathed in freezing water with multiple injuries at an age when most people are thinking about their future. He knew he was dying and probably thought about what his family would think. He would never hear his mothers voice, or see any of his friends again. Bye Willi. Groundspeak has your money.

 

Excellent post had you left out "Groundspeak has your money."

 

He was emphasizing the point that I already made earlier in the thread. No matter how you feel whether caches in illegal places are ok or not, it is obvious that there is no clear line from Groundspeak about the issue (yes, it's in the guidelines, but it's not enforced), and it's absolutely reasonable to wonder why.

 

On this side of the pond, when trespassing issues are brought to a reviewer's attention, it IS enforced.

 

A reviewer generally has no special knowledge about tresspassing issues at the time of publishing the cache. Therefore, it is our responsibility to bring it to their attention.

 

The issue with this particular incident seems to be that no one notified Groundspeak of the tresspassing issue. And if they had, it seems there is a high likelihood that it would have been ignored.

 

Therefore, it seems that the local community needs to change their attitude towards tresspassing and very likely Groundspeak needs to re-evaluate the local reviewers.

If it was brought to Groundspeak's attention...I think it would have been dealt with...I can only comment on my experiences locally...

 

I know it has been brought up by the OP that these "Lost Places" caches all be archived immediately...but, I think the local cachers need to get involved with those caches and contact their local reviewer and Groundspeak. I am not sure what these "Lost Places" caches truly are, but I am sure not all of them are called "Lost Places" and one can't just blindly archive all of them just because of a name. I know of local caches here that have weird names and the cache itself is no more than a 1/1 park and grab...course...some of those 1/1 caches are questionable and I have said my peice about them locally...I have contacted my local reviewer about questionable caches as well. So far, my questions have been answered and explained if needed. I have yet to be told by a reviewer to "mind my own business"...

Edited December 23, 2011 by ArcherDragoon

[+Otis.Gore]

All I did was tryin to show you the side of the people who love the "illegal" caches...it's just that I know from previous posts how the general reaction to someone is that is honest about beeing in that scene and doing those things.

 

And since I don't stick to the rules, that must mean I am part of the problem or the root of all evil or wathever you think it means if you enjoy stuff like that instead of sightseeing tours....

 

What I am saying is that these caches are way more fun BECAUSE of the risk, and if you don't want to waste your life for a piece of paper, maybe it's not a good idea to do it, but that doesn't mean that others shouldn't do it.

And for the "illegal" caches.

Seriously, if someone wants one published, he will get it published, so whatever you do, there will always be caches in locations you shouldn't go to, because that's whats FUN about it.

 

You can't keep people from doing stuff like this (as you see), so all those ideas, as good as they might be, are useless if someone WANTS to put his life on the line.

[+cheech gang]

All I did was tryin to show you the side of the people who love the "illegal" caches...it's just that I know from previous posts how the general reaction to someone is that is honest about beeing in that scene and doing those things.

 

And since I don't stick to the rules, that must mean I am part of the problem or the root of all evil or wathever you think it means if you enjoy stuff like that instead of sightseeing tours....

 

What I am saying is that these caches are way more fun BECAUSE of the risk, and if you don't want to waste your life for a piece of paper, maybe it's not a good idea to do it, but that doesn't mean that others shouldn't do it.

And for the "illegal" caches.

Seriously, if someone wants one published, he will get it published, so whatever you do, there will always be caches in locations you shouldn't go to, because that's whats FUN about it.

 

You can't keep people from doing stuff like this (as you see), so all those ideas, as good as they might be, are useless if someone WANTS to put his life on the line.

 

CASE CLOSED

[+RIclimber]

I just want to share this quote from the day before it happened:

Every time I hear about geocaching in Germany it's like they're playing a completely different game over there...

Same for me.

I am a german cacher and everytime I hear about caching in the US I think: "Boy, that is sooooo lame....if it were the same here, I'd quit"

The whole bomb squad paranoia hasn't arrived here yet, so you have a lot more ways to make interesting caches as a CO.

Seriously, noone cares about any permissions...

[4wheelin_fool]

All I did was tryin to show you the side of the people who love the "illegal" caches...it's just that I know from previous posts how the general reaction to someone is that is honest about beeing in that scene and doing those things.

 

And since I don't stick to the rules, that must mean I am part of the problem or the root of all evil or wathever you think it means if you enjoy stuff like that instead of sightseeing tours....

 

What I am saying is that these caches are way more fun BECAUSE of the risk, and if you don't want to waste your life for a piece of paper, maybe it's not a good idea to do it, but that doesn't mean that others shouldn't do it.

And for the "illegal" caches.

Seriously, if someone wants one published, he will get it published, so whatever you do, there will always be caches in locations you shouldn't go to, because that's whats FUN about it.

 

You can't keep people from doing stuff like this (as you see), so all those ideas, as good as they might be, are useless if someone WANTS to put his life on the line.

 

You are free to visit any of those places without there being a geocache in place.

 

When a death occurs, it makes us all appear to be a bunch of juvenile delinquents.

 

You seem to be implying that ordinarily you wouldn't visit such areas, but with a geocache in place it's different. Others have blazed a path for you to follow, and now your own individual judgement becomes clouded by following others. Is that right?

[+GeoBain]

All I did was tryin to show you the side of the people who love the "illegal" caches...it's just that I know from previous posts how the general reaction to someone is that is honest about beeing in that scene and doing those things.

 

And since I don't stick to the rules, that must mean I am part of the problem or the root of all evil or wathever you think it means if you enjoy stuff like that instead of sightseeing tours....

 

What I am saying is that these caches are way more fun BECAUSE of the risk, and if you don't want to waste your life for a piece of paper, maybe it's not a good idea to do it, but that doesn't mean that others shouldn't do it.

And for the "illegal" caches.

Seriously, if someone wants one published, he will get it published, so whatever you do, there will always be caches in locations you shouldn't go to, because that's whats FUN about it.

 

You can't keep people from doing stuff like this (as you see), so all those ideas, as good as they might be, are useless if someone WANTS to put his life on the line.

 

Thank you for clarifying just how bad the problem really is.

[+Otis.Gore]

All I did was tryin to show you the side of the people who love the "illegal" caches...it's just that I know from previous posts how the general reaction to someone is that is honest about beeing in that scene and doing those things.

 

And since I don't stick to the rules, that must mean I am part of the problem or the root of all evil or wathever you think it means if you enjoy stuff like that instead of sightseeing tours....

 

What I am saying is that these caches are way more fun BECAUSE of the risk, and if you don't want to waste your life for a piece of paper, maybe it's not a good idea to do it, but that doesn't mean that others shouldn't do it.

And for the "illegal" caches.

Seriously, if someone wants one published, he will get it published, so whatever you do, there will always be caches in locations you shouldn't go to, because that's whats FUN about it.

 

You can't keep people from doing stuff like this (as you see), so all those ideas, as good as they might be, are useless if someone WANTS to put his life on the line.

 

Thank you for clarifying just how bad the problem really is.

 

I don't see it as a problem.

It's like, when you are snowboarding and there's a red slope, a blue slope, a black slope, and a non secured slope...you know the risk and you have to evaluate how much of a risk you are willing to take.

If you want the safe one, go for the blue slope (traditional by the street), if you are a bit more eager for a thrill, try the black slope (a T4 with repelling), and if you want to get your adrenaline flowin, go for the non secured ride (and you know when you get hurt, you're off the path and noone will find you).

[+CanadianRockies]

I am from Germany (pretty close to Pirna to be exact) and I sarted my caching career with all those illegal caches.

 

I love them, but they now started closing them all down, and I hate it.

You're free to start your own website that lists illegally placed caches.

 

And to be honest, I still feel that if all you did till now is collect some micros close to a street or in the woods, but have never been in a abandoned powerplant with nothing but some flashlights, 2 buddies, a lot of adrinalin, climbing gear and medipacks searching for a 14 stage multi, crawling into the deepest holes in the basement or walking on a catwalk under the ceiling while you have to watch not to be spotted by police, don't talk to me about how adventurous geocaching can be.

Are you saying there are no legal cache locations that might get your adrenaline flowing? If you only get pleasure from breaking the law, then there are plenty of other activities available to you.

[+GeoBain]

All I did was tryin to show you the side of the people who love the "illegal" caches...it's just that I know from previous posts how the general reaction to someone is that is honest about beeing in that scene and doing those things.

 

And since I don't stick to the rules, that must mean I am part of the problem or the root of all evil or wathever you think it means if you enjoy stuff like that instead of sightseeing tours....

 

What I am saying is that these caches are way more fun BECAUSE of the risk, and if you don't want to waste your life for a piece of paper, maybe it's not a good idea to do it, but that doesn't mean that others shouldn't do it.

And for the "illegal" caches.

Seriously, if someone wants one published, he will get it published, so whatever you do, there will always be caches in locations you shouldn't go to, because that's whats FUN about it.

 

You can't keep people from doing stuff like this (as you see), so all those ideas, as good as they might be, are useless if someone WANTS to put his life on the line.

 

Thank you for clarifying just how bad the problem really is.

 

I don't see it as a problem.

It's like, when you are snowboarding and there's a red slope, a blue slope, a black slope, and a non secured slope...you know the risk and you have to evaluate how much of a risk you are willing to take.

If you want the safe one, go for the blue slope (traditional by the street), if you are a bit more eager for a thrill, try the black slope (a T4 with repelling), and if you want to get your adrenaline flowin, go for the non secured ride (and you know when you get hurt, you're off the path and noone will find you).

 

I get it.

 

I know there are adrenaline junkies out there who need to push the limits. But there are plenty of legal places to hide such caches.

 

I've heard of underground groups that explore just the kind of places you like to explore. Those groups may be more suitable to your lifestyle.

 

But this is geocaching. The first rule states that we follow the local laws.

 

If that is not exciting enough for you, perhaps you are in the wrong sport/hobby/activity.

[I!]

And to be honest, I still feel that if all you did till now is collect some micros close to a street or in the woods, but have never been in a abandoned powerplant with nothing but some flashlights, 2 buddies, a lot of adrinalin, climbing gear and medipacks searching for a 14 stage multi, crawling into the deepest holes in the basement or walking on a catwalk under the ceiling while you have to watch not to be spotted by police, don't talk to me about how adventurous geocaching can be.

Not looking to "bash", just to understand the culture ... if you had attempted the lethal bridge cache and had nearly fallen through where the grille was missing, would you be annoyed that the CO had not warned you of the hazard or would you accept that the hazard was part of the thrill of illicit geocaches? (Let's say for argument's sake it was obvious that the bridge was not open to the public.)

[+B+L]

CASE CLOSED

All this does is add an additional proof that the guidelines are just words. Words without any meaning.

[Mr.Yuck]

Willi, a very experienced cacher falls 80 feet into a very cold river. He didnt die immediately. He was alive long enough to pull himself to the edge, where he most likely screamed for help at the top of his lungs. Being 21 and in the prime of his life he died all alone, experiencing extreme pain in the dark, bathed in freezing water with multiple injuries at an age when most people are thinking about their future. He knew he was dying and probably thought about what his family would think. He would never hear his mothers voice, or see any of his friends again. Bye Willi. Groundspeak has your money.

As a nurse and former EMT, I've seen my fair share of head injuries. And I can say that I worried that your above description might be true. I've actually thought of him alone, hurting, wet and cold in that creek.

I didn't know he crawled to the edge of the creek....

 

I remember the article saying he crawled, as in he moved from the spot he landed in, not necessarily to shore. I do feel compelled to say he fell 6 meters, or about 20 feet though, not 80. It was a very shallow creek/river with rocks in it. All just from memory and the pictures in the one article posted here.

[+Otis.Gore]

Well, you are right, there are those groups, and I am active there too, but the thing is that many of those powerplants (or bunkers for example, we got lots of them) are so beatiful that it would be a shame not to use tham as cache locations.

 

I started geocaching doing these caches and it took me some time to realize that not all caches are like this, that there are caches that are only 1 stage etc.

The first "normal" cache I did was on a bridge, and I climbed under the bridge because I thought that might be a more secure spot for a cache (since muggles don't climb under bridges)

As was stated earlier, geocaching started out in germany as some kind of underground sport (and god knows I wish it would have stayed that way), so as we already were underground and noone knew abot us, it wasn't that bad breaking the law.

Aside from this, german law is a joke as it is...

I am aware of tha fact that geocaching is now mainstream and new cachers might get in greater risk because they don't know what to exspect, but that doesn't mean I have to like the fact that some of the greatest, most adventurous, most beatifully designed caches I ever did had to be archived because of "the law" (even after existing for more than 5 years in some cases).

[+Otis.Gore]

And to be honest, I still feel that if all you did till now is collect some micros close to a street or in the woods, but have never been in a abandoned powerplant with nothing but some flashlights, 2 buddies, a lot of adrinalin, climbing gear and medipacks searching for a 14 stage multi, crawling into the deepest holes in the basement or walking on a catwalk under the ceiling while you have to watch not to be spotted by police, don't talk to me about how adventurous geocaching can be.

Not looking to "bash", just to understand the culture ... if you had attempted the lethal bridge cache and had nearly fallen through where the grille was missing, would you be annoyed that the CO had not warned you of the hazard or would you accept that the hazard was part of the thrill of illicit geocaches? (Let's say for argument's sake it was obvious that the bridge was not open to the public.)

 

I would have not only have accepted it as part of the thrill, I would have been angry at MYSELF for not seeing that huge hole...

 

If you start doing a cache like this, one has to be carefull and watch for holes. If you done a few of them, the expirience should make you aware of the fact that these bridges often have holes in places where no hole should be.

That is why I doubt he just fell. There must have been something distracting him, and in a situation where your life depends on your awareness, you can't afford to be distracted....

Edited December 22, 2011 by Otis.Gore

[+fizzymagic]

People will do

.

[I!]

I would have not only have accepted it as part of the thrill, I would have been angry at MYSELF for not seeing that huge hole...

I'm surprised. I had guessed you'd regard it as an "unfair" hazard because on the face of it there didn't appear to be anything particularly hazardous about the cache (in contrast to the other examples you gave, where the element of danger is obvious). If that's typical of illicit caching in Germany then the OP's got his work cut out making it safer!

[+Otis.Gore]

I would have not only have accepted it as part of the thrill, I would have been angry at MYSELF for not seeing that huge hole...

I'm surprised. I had guessed you'd regard it as an "unfair" hazard because on the face of it there didn't appear to be anything particularly hazardous about the cache (in contrast to the other examples you gave, where the element of danger is obvious). If that's typical of illicit caching in Germany then the OP's got his work cut out making it safer!

 

Of course it wasn't stated in bold letters in the listing, but if I would have arrived there, seen that bridge, in the dark and alone by myself, I would have been extra cautious of every single step it take, because (as I said) if you done a couple of these bridge caches, you probably encountered loose planks, wobbly ground and stuff like that and know that you MUST watch the ground underneath your feet, because there COULD be a hole there. Also watch your head, because you dont want to run into anything sharp and rusty...

[veit]

Even though Otis.Gore's post shocked me at first, because it didnt seem helpful at all, I think we are getting somewhere here. I wasn't really aware of the "historical" reasons for the apparently sharp difference between illegal caches in Germany and other European countries, and for example, the US. There might be other cultural reasons (for example, in Germany you most likely won't get shot for trespassing, while I can imagine that that probability is much higher in the US). But this thread has clearly brought to light that this "illegal subculture" exists...not only exists, but thrives. On the geocaching platform.

 

I think we all agree that it's people's own choice whether they trespass in their free time, explore cool places, get an adrenaline kick that way. However, the geocaching community and listings platform also has to make a concious choice if we want to entice this kind of behaviour by placing caches and smileys on the map there. In short: if this should happen on geocaching.com or not. Since this is not a democracy around here, it's time for Groundspeak to step in and clearly communicate: get rid of those caches and a big part of the local (sub)culture and some of their most loyal paying customers, or own up to it that so far it's been accepted and will be accepted in the future (and stop hiding behind the guidelines).

 

I can only say that personally, I was attracted to geocaching because of the fun of being outside, seeing new sights and places, mostly in nature, but also around corners of the city I didnt know. After getting a bit more involved and reading the rave reviews of Lost Places, I also did a few of those. Enjoyed them, as I said, but without geocaching I probably wouldn't have entered. That's what I mean with enticing. Willi was a statistics cacher - I know he once declared he wanted to do all caches in Saxony - so that smiley on the map on that bridge probably enticed him to climb up there.

 

While I still believe that we can do a lot more things to increase safety than just archiving these types of caches, I think it's moot to discuss this particular issue much further here until we've heard from Groundspeak.

[Mr.Yuck]

OK, here I go...

 

I will probably get my head bashed in for saying this, but I just need to get this out, and it seems like you guys might need a scapegoat, so here I am.

 

I am from Germany (pretty close to Pirna to be exact) and I sarted my caching career with all those illegal caches.

I love them, but they now started closing them all down, and I hate it.

In hindsight, I probably did a lot of things in these caches that could have killed me, but I was (and am) willing to take that risk.

 

 

Wait a minute here. So I get this straight, are you saying that some "illegal" caches in Germany have been archived since the tragic death of Willimax?

 

And while I'm here, it's almost buried already, but I thought the IBTL posted on page 9 was the rudest, and most uncalled for IBTL post in the history of this forum.

[+FloridaFour]

It is a sad tragedy, and I am sorrry for the loss of life, but we all choose to take risks in life, some more than others. While out caching, I have had accidents, small ones so far.... But I accept that anything can happen and I try not to take undue risks. One time my son stepped on a rattlesnake... That could've been a disaster... And it was by my 1.5 terrain/difficulty cache.

 

I do try to provide information to my finders, such as indistinct trail, be sure to mark waypoints, etc. I also pay attention to my logs, because conditions can change. But this accident sounds like it was not the hider's fault. No one forced this man to hunt that cache.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

And while I'm here, it's almost buried already, but I thought the IBTL posted on page 9 was the rudest, and most uncalled for IBTL post in the history of this forum.

 

Agreed - especially with the "I have no more to add" when they didn't contribute anything prior.

[+Otis.Gore]

I admit that I might have used the wrong wording in my first post.(Well, I write emotionally, so when I feel I need to exaggerate in my speech....don't take it too seriously)

 

Anyway, what I want to mention about these Lost Places (and I am not talking about these bridges or anything like that, I talk bunkers, power plants, forgotten cellars (Markthallenkeller Leipzig TD 60 war von mir und 2 Freunden)), places that have been untouched for years, places that tell stories of other times, stories of rise and decay, and to feel yourself be part of that is an incredible feeling that can't be compared to anything else.

You can feel the history (and we got a lot of that in germany).

Add the thrill of the night and beeing super aware of your surroundings (you can hear the faintest rustle, shadows moving around you) and it's better than any history lesson.

 

I really loved it

Edited December 22, 2011 by Otis.Gore

[veit]

BTW, one possible solution that has been mentioned in German Forums/blogs is to place the actual cache for such locations outside (on the wall or wherever), and then let everyone decide for themselves if they take their chances and enter. I think that this could be a solution that might actually work quite well. If that cache had been placed near the bridge, with that story of how those guys hung out there sometimes drinking beer after their dancing lessons which is on the cache listing, Willi might have just signed the logbook and moved on. And if he had decided to go check out that bridge, we wouldn't have this discussion here, because then there would be no direct relation to geocaching.

[+GeoBain]

However, the geocaching community and listings platform also has to make a concious choice if we want to entice this kind of behaviour by placing caches and smileys on the map there. In short: if this should happen on geocaching.com or not.

 

It may be something the locals want, but it is against stated Groundspeak policy. I can only hope that at this point TPTB have begun looking into what part the local reviewers play in this sub-culture.

 

Since this is not a democracy around here, it's time for Groundspeak to step in and clearly communicate: get rid of those caches and a big part of the local (sub)culture and some of their most loyal paying customers, or own up to it that so far it's been accepted and will be accepted in the future (and stop hiding behind the guidelines).

 

I don't speak German so I wouldn't know what was being said on the German boards or whether or not caches were now being archived. But Otis stated this was happening. Can you confirm?

 

I can only say that personally, I was attracted to geocaching because of the fun of being outside, seeing new sights and places, mostly in nature, but also around corners of the city I didnt know.

 

THAT is what geocaching is all about; to me at least.

 

I think it's moot to discuss this particular issue much further here until we've heard from Groundspeak.

 

I agree. But I would like to know if Groundspeak is doing anything about the volunteers in the area. Honestly, if they are not capable of enforcing Groundspeak's rules, then Groundspeak should find someone who can to work that area.

[+cheech gang]

A similar subculture of trespassing thrill seekers exists in North America (Google Infiltration or Urban Exploration).

 

However, the intigration of these illegal entry locations into the geocaching aegis is generally frowned upon here. I had no idea it was that pervasive in the cited countries. At least here No Trespassing also means no caching.

[4wheelin_fool]

I admit that I might have used the wrong wording in my first post.(Well, I write emotionally, so when I feel I need to exaggerate in my speech....don't take it too seriously)

 

Anyway, what I want to mention about these Lost Places (and I am not talking about these bridges or anything like that, I talk bunkers, power plants, forgotten cellars (Markthallenkeller Leipzig TD 60 war von mir und 2 Freunden)), places that have been untouched for years, places that tell stories of other times, stories of rise and decay, and to feel yourself be part of that is an incredible feeling that can't be compared to anything else.

You can feel the history (and we got a lot of that in germany).

Add the thrill of the night and beeing super aware of your surroundings (you can hear the faintest rustle, shadows moving around you) and it's better than any history lesson.

 

I really loved it

 

That's great. Why cant you love it anymore? Why do you need to follow others?

[+GeoBain]

I admit that I might have used the wrong wording in my first post.(Well, I write emotionally, so when I feel I need to exaggerate in my speech....don't take it too seriously)

 

Anyway, what I want to mention about these Lost Places (and I am not talking about these bridges or anything like that, I talk bunkers, power plants, forgotten cellars (Markthallenkeller Leipzig TD 60 war von mir und 2 Freunden)), places that have been untouched for years, places that tell stories of other times, stories of rise and decay, and to feel yourself be part of that is an incredible feeling that can't be compared to anything else.

You can feel the history (and we got a lot of that in germany).

Add the thrill of the night and beeing super aware of your surroundings (you can hear the faintest rustle, shadows moving around you) and it's better than any history lesson.

 

I really loved it

 

We get it. You really like breaking the rules.

 

Now we just need to find out if the reviewers share your disdain for the guidelines. If so, Groundspeak needs to do some housekeeping.

 

I'm not sure what to do about regular geocachers. You yourself came really close to calling those unwilling to take the challenge wimps. I got a really good sense in your other post of what those that are willing to report these caches are up against.

[+GeoBain]

BTW, one possible solution that has been mentioned in German Forums/blogs is to place the actual cache for such locations outside (on the wall or wherever), and then let everyone decide for themselves if they take their chances and enter. I think that this could be a solution that might actually work quite well. If that cache had been placed near the bridge, with that story of how those guys hung out there sometimes drinking beer after their dancing lessons which is on the cache listing, Willi might have just signed the logbook and moved on. And if he had decided to go check out that bridge, we wouldn't have this discussion here, because then there would be no direct relation to geocaching.

 

Now that's something I could get behind. Place the cache legally in a location that might point out the interesting, but illegal, location and then if someone chooses to do some extracurricular activity beyond finding the cache, the onus is on them.

[BoredRoom]

places that have been untouched for years, places that tell stories of other times, stories of rise and decay, and to feel yourself be part of that is an incredible feeling that can't be compared to anything else.

 

You should try infiltration.org

[knowschad]

Here in the U.S., we call what Otis.Gore likes to do, "Urban Exploration", but it doesn't generally have geocaching associated with it. I can totally understand the excitement, although I am not as brave about that sort of thing as my imagination would have me believe.

[+baloo&bd]

I would have not only have accepted it as part of the thrill, I would have been angry at MYSELF for not seeing that huge hole...

 

If you start doing a cache like this, one has to be carefull and watch for holes. If you done a few of them, the expirience should make you aware of the fact that these bridges often have holes in places where no hole should be.

That is why I doubt he just fell. There must have been something distracting him, and in a situation where your life depends on your awareness, you can't afford to be distracted....

 

**Before I get jumped on, this post is coming from the context of this thread and nothing else.**

 

Thanks for jumping in the conversation, it clarifies a whole lot.

 

It sounds like you know what you are doing and fully accept the any legal or physical consequences of your actions, for that I commend you.

 

As to whether or not it is within the purview of geocaching is for another thread so I'll leave it at that except to say I think we would be on different sides of that issue. Having visited your area many times, I am aware of the facilities you are speaking of and a much younger version of myself enjoyed the activity as well

 

I agree with whomever posted CASE CLOSED. This is most definitely a solution in search of a problem. Geocaching shouldn't nor can do anything if the local community as a whole condones this and refuses to accept their help. Geocaching has put guidelines and tools in place to identify issues with caches. There are three tools available to users to get issues corrected. NM, NA and direct email. What is broke is that no one will, or it appears, even wants to post an NA log. This is probably 90% of the problem. As to the NA's that have been posted and ignored or erased, the community has positioned itself enough to either have great influence over the reviewers or the local reviewers themselves are participating in this. While this is a failure on the part of the GS volunteer, it is difficult to hold geocaching's feet to the fire if no one will even let them know the reviewers are not working properly.

 

CASE CLOSED is appropriate because the OP brought an issue which inaccurately stated it was a failure of GS's system and that this failure led to the loss of life yet the system had not even being utilized. Your statements here indicate that there is a local issue (sorry, can't think of a better word) that needs to be solved locally and that global changes to the system GS has in place is not necessary as it has a proven and excellent record.

 

Those of us not in the area, need to stay out of it. There is nothing we can do, nor is there anything we should. Even discussing it here is a waste of time. (wait, I think that is the definition of a online forum)

 

We do need to remember while we all banter back and forth, a life was lost. While I would like to believe he most likely had the same attitude as Otis.Gore, his family should still be in our thoughts. No matter what the individuals attitude, the family is most certainly innocent, collateral damage of this tragedy. I think I can speak for all of us on both sides of this thread that if someone communicates with them, let them know that those aware in geocaching certainly are thinking of them.

 

Don't hold your breath waiting for GS to weigh in here in the forums on this matter. I can not speak for them, however were it I, I would see no benefit to having to re-state the obvious. This "issue" would probably be better served in the local forum for that area.

 

While I won't be as incredibly rude as the person who posted the IBTL, the thread probably ran it's course about half way through the second page.

[+Otis.Gore]

I admit that I might have used the wrong wording in my first post.(Well, I write emotionally, so when I feel I need to exaggerate in my speech....don't take it too seriously)

 

Anyway, what I want to mention about these Lost Places (and I am not talking about these bridges or anything like that, I talk bunkers, power plants, forgotten cellars (Markthallenkeller Leipzig TD 60 war von mir und 2 Freunden)), places that have been untouched for years, places that tell stories of other times, stories of rise and decay, and to feel yourself be part of that is an incredible feeling that can't be compared to anything else.

You can feel the history (and we got a lot of that in germany).

Add the thrill of the night and beeing super aware of your surroundings (you can hear the faintest rustle, shadows moving around you) and it's better than any history lesson.

 

I really loved it

 

We get it. You really like breaking the rules.

 

Now we just need to find out if the reviewers share your disdain for the guidelines. If so, Groundspeak needs to do some housekeeping.

 

I'm not sure what to do about regular geocachers. You yourself came really close to calling those unwilling to take the challenge wimps. I got a really good sense in your other post of what those that are willing to report these caches are up against.

 

No, oviously you don't get it...

 

It's not about breaking the rules (even though that might be a part of it and part of the thrill) it's about seeing places not many others have seen before.

And I don't call anyone wimps, as I said everyone has to decide how far they wanna go, but I will not take lectures from someone that hasn't done anything like that before ( or would you let someone tell you about climbning when all they have done is hanging around in a climbing hall?)

They are not wimps, they merely don't have as much expirience.

And yes, it would bother me if someone posted a NA on a cache that the owner has worked on for months.

And if I was the owner....wel I'd be really angry, because I put a lot of work in that thing and now there's someone who's no local reporting my cache....

 

@ 4Wheelin I can't love it because it's not the same. Of course I still venture in those odd places, but it's different when you got a direct goal instead of wandering around aimlessly. I don't say it isn't fun, but geocaching used to be more fun to me in these places than on the street in broad daylight. Thats what I grew up with, hence I miss it...

[veit]

Even though I'd like to keep the main focus of the thread on what we can do in the future, I think I should also keep sharing some of the things happening locally. I do notice more and more thoughtful entries in German blogs and Forums. One such entry: http://rdpfleger.de/?p=750

 

Also, the people behind the quite popular and well done local caching page for Saxony (our State) that has a strong emphasis on rankings and stats stated they are closing it down for some time (you can read their statement here: http://www.geocache-leipzig.de/gclefor/viewtopic.php?p=19306#p19306), take a look at the current page: http://www.sachsencacher.de/

 

I am pretty sure that after the initial phase of shock, a LOT of soul searching will be done around here - please keep that in mind whenever you want to see immediate action like NA logs on local caches. For many the phase of grief is just starting and I can imagine it will take some weeks or even months before real hard discussions start about the same topics we have been discussing here (and without a real active local Forum I wonder where these discussions will play out...cache pages? emails? meetings? I don't know yet.).

[+CanadianRockies]

And yes, it would bother me if someone posted a NA on a cache that the owner has worked on for months.

And if I was the owner....wel I'd be really angry, because I put a lot of work in that thing and now there's someone who's no local reporting my cache....

Part of knowingly taking risks is accepting the consequences of your actions. The cache owners who have placed illegal caches either know or should know that the caches violate Groundspeak's guidelines.

Edited December 22, 2011 by CanadianRockies

[+CanadianRockies]

You yourself came really close to calling those unwilling to take the challenge wimps. I got a really good sense in your other post of what those that are willing to report these caches are up against.

No, oviously you don't get it...

 

It's not about breaking the rules (even though that might be a part of it and part of the thrill) it's about seeing places not many others have seen before.

 

And I don't call anyone wimps... (Emphasis added.)

This might be your comment to which GeoBain was referring:

 

I will never forget the feeling of the old days, when beeing a cacher was something special and required balls. (Emphasis added.)

[veit]

Let's see if we can move this on: I think we've discussed the issue of illegally placed caches sufficiently. They do exist, and even though there are wildly differing opinions whether banning them from the platform would have prevented this death and is the right step to take in light of this tragedy, the entity that has to make this call is Groundspeak, not us.

 

And I would like to hear from them soon. I started this thread out of shock, out of feeling the urge "to do something", out of human compassion - I don't want any family having to go through what Willi's family is going through now, if we can prevent it. In this thread, we have given plenty of suggestions what could be done. I absolutely hope that there is an entire team huddling together in Seattle right now, throwing around thoughts, ideas, monitoring this thread. And that they start deciding and communicating soon. Actually, I hope they had some kind of plan in the drawers already for such a situation, and I hope that "just sit it out" is not that plan.

 

Someone just died while geocaching, and while this thread has brought out tons of differing opinions as to which parts in the process led to the death, one thing is clear: at least some of us believe this death could have been prevented and similar deaths can be prevented in the future, and that one of the parties that needs to act is Groundspeak. Those voices are not gonna go away, in fact every day that passes by increases the risk that this thing is gonna blow up big time - I have mentioned media before, and I think we're all aware what the result might be if issues like the one we discussed in this thread are compressed to a few lines in newspapers. This story is heartbreaking, it is a clear example of how we failed as an entire community, and quite frankly, I'm surprised that no national media has taken up this story yet. It's just a matter of time. Groundspeak needs to get it's act together for when that happens.

 

What I'm trying to say is: please, please, please, Seattle, don't put your heads into the sand. Deal with the safety issue right now, even if it might mean overtime or waking the boss.

 

So besides collecting ideas what could be done I'd like to shift the focus of the thread on how to get them heard, and at least get a thumbs up or down on them from Groundspeak. Could someone please shed some light on how decisionmaking within Groundspeak usually works?

[+FloridaFour]

It is a sad tragedy, and I am sorrry for the loss of life, but we all choose to take risks in life, some more than others. While out caching, I have had accidents, small ones so far.... But I accept that anything can happen and I try not to take undue risks. One time my son stepped on a rattlesnake... That could've been a disaster... And it was by my 1.5 terrain/difficulty cache.

 

I do try to provide information to my finders, such as indistinct trail, be sure to mark waypoints, etc. I also pay attention to my logs, because conditions can change. But this accident sounds like it was not the hider's fault. No one forced this man to hunt that cache.

[+GeoBain]

You yourself came really close to calling those unwilling to take the challenge wimps. I got a really good sense in your other post of what those that are willing to report these caches are up against.

No, oviously you don't get it...

 

It's not about breaking the rules (even though that might be a part of it and part of the thrill) it's about seeing places not many others have seen before.

 

And I don't call anyone wimps... (Emphasis added.)

This might be your comment to which GeoBain was referring:

 

I will never forget the feeling of the old days, when beeing a cacher was something special and required balls. (Emphasis added.)

 

That's the one. I was going to quote it and respond but I don't think it really matters. It's kind of obvious Otis has his own take on geocaching.

 

I'll just say I think he's in the wrong hobby.