FTF rules

[+Gan Dalf]

If you're the first person to find the cache then you are FTF. There are no rules.

 

and sign the physical log.

 

SS

 

If you found it you found it. It's a fact. It's not something one decides or votes on. It just is.

 

So much for no rules and no opinions

 

I agree with signing the log. If you don't sign the log (or rather, if you don't look at it), how do you know that you were first? And if you don't sign it, how would the next cacher know that they were not first? Signing the log is essential for the FTF game, which is also why I find FTFs on earthcaches and the likes kinda silly.

 

If I find something first, I found it first. If you found it first but didn't sign the log and then I found it, I may think I am FTF but you are still FTF regardless. I may get "credit" for FTF, but it doesn't change the fact that you were FTF.

 

I find the situation where someone goes out, is the first to find a new cache and does not sign the log (on purpose) but logs it online a highly improbable circumstance. I don't imagine too many of those that are not log signers are also FTF hounds, it would bring too much attention to their style which most cache owners find a questionable practice.

 

As for those that don't sign logs or log online, I don't imagine those people are FTF hounds. What would be the point?

Edited December 9, 2011 by FobesMan

[+NYPaddleCacher]

If you're the first person to find the cache then you are FTF. There are no rules.

 

and sign the physical log.

 

SS

 

If you found it you found it. It's a fact. It's not something one decides or votes on. It just is.

 

So much for no rules and no opinions

 

I agree with signing the log. If you don't sign the log (or rather, if you don't look at it), how do you know that you were first? And if you don't sign it, how would the next cacher know that they were not first? Signing the log is essential for the FTF game, which is also why I find FTFs on earthcaches and the likes kinda silly.

 

If I find something first, I found it first. If you found it first but didn't sign the log and then I found it, I may think I am FTF but you are still FTF regardless. I may get "credit" for FTF, but it doesn't change the fact that you were FTF.

 

As I see it there are three primary issues regarding "rules" or generally accepted practices for the FTF game.

 

The first is that there isn't an agreed upon definition of what constitutes a "find". For some COs, the physical logbook *must* be signed in order for it to be considered a find, however some will accept other forms of proof. When the CO of a cache and all those that "find" a cache don't agree on what constitutes a find it's hard to pin down who exactly is FTF, which brings me to the next issue.

 

Many cache owners think of the FTF as something that can be awarded (beyond providing a FTF prize) by acknowledging someone on the cache page listing. Again, if there isn't agreement between everyone playing the FTF game on what constitutes a find, drama can occur when someone that believes that they were the FTF on the cache sees the cache owner awarding it to someone else. While GeoBains statement that a FTF is not something one decides or votes on has an element of truth, in practice, there a *lot* of cache owner that do make that decision by adding a "Congrats to [insert cache name here] for FTF".

 

Finally, there is the issue of "claiming FTF". Since there is no authoritative body which decides who is FTF on the cache, and there isn't a single source for registering FTF claims, anyone can "claim FTF" and it's typically in the form of adding the cache to a bookmark list, spreadsheet, or configuring ones stats page to increment their number of FTFs by one. The drama occurs, not because one can't "claim FTF" on a cache they legitimately believe there were first to find, but that someone else also "claims FTF" on the same cache, even though the "documentation" of the claim may be someplace that nobody but the person making the claim is going to look at.

[+GeoBain]

If you're the first person to find the cache then you are FTF. There are no rules.

 

and sign the physical log.

 

SS

 

If you found it you found it. It's a fact. It's not something one decides or votes on. It just is.

 

So much for no rules and no opinions

 

I agree with signing the log. If you don't sign the log (or rather, if you don't look at it), how do you know that you were first? And if you don't sign it, how would the next cacher know that they were not first? Signing the log is essential for the FTF game, which is also why I find FTFs on earthcaches and the likes kinda silly.

 

If I find something first, I found it first. If you found it first but didn't sign the log and then I found it, I may think I am FTF but you are still FTF regardless. I may get "credit" for FTF, but it doesn't change the fact that you were FTF.

 

I find the situation where someone goes out, is the first to find a new cache and does not sign the log (on purpose) but logs it online a highly improbable circumstance. I don't imagine too many of those that are not log signers are also FTF hounds, it would bring too much attention to their style which most cache owners find a questionable practice.

 

As for those that don't sign logs or log online, I don't imagine those people are FTF hounds. What would be the point?

 

Which sort of negates a "rule" that FTF must sign the log. Chances are if he's participating in the side game he's already going to be signing the log.

[+thebruce0]

the best summary so far

[+terrkan78]

I think we should all work together to create a huuuuuuge PDF guide outlining every single aspect of FTFs so that it can be publicly distributed.

 

Oooo. I like this idea! There are so many contingencies that have not yet been covered.

 

What if one cacher does bodily violence to another during the FTF search (in order to X-out the competition)? Does the attacker lose his FTF privileges (even if he signs the log first)? Like a prisoner doesn't get to keep the spoils of his crime?

 

What if two separate cachers sign what they believe to be a pristine log book, only cacher A signed what he thought was the front, cacher B signed on the reverse, nobody put down what time they signed and a big brouhaha ensues? What then?

 

What if the FTFer doesn't wanna be FTF? He thinks it's a ridiculous farce. Can we shove it down his throat anyway? I mean, he did sign the log first after all.

 

 

I hope someone takes this important task on! I mean, as anyone who's ever ran out the door in their PJs at 10:30 pm after getting the ding on their phone knows, FTFing is serious bizness!

[+kpanko]

If you found it first but didn't sign the log and then I found it, I may think I am FTF but you are still FTF regardless.

If a bear finds a cache first in the woods, does it make a sound?

[+thebruce0]

I don't think you'd want to argue with a bear as to who gets the FTF...

[hoosier guy]

There are a LOT of rules concerning FTF'ing. The only one that is worth mentioning is rule 62 - don't take yourself so dadgum seriously.

 

I like that one.

[+GeoBain]

I don't think you'd want to argue with a bear as to who gets the FTF...

If a bear wants FTF, he can have it.

[+Flintstone5611]

haha that should spark some discussions

2301 finds - 2301 FTFs! woot!

 

Congrats on 2301 FTFs.

[+Flintstone5611]

I don't think you'd want to argue with a bear as to who gets the FTF...

If a bear wants FTF, he can have it.

 

Yeah but he won't post it on his profile, so your good!

[+GeoBain]

I don't think you'd want to argue with a bear as to who gets the FTF...

If a bear wants FTF, he can have it.

 

Yeah but he won't post it on his profile, so your good!

 

I won't either, so I guess you can have it.

[+power69]

Groundspeak seems to also be giving notifies to smartphones before normal email addies so its all about the haves vs. the havenots.

 

Huh? I don't think so. An email address is an email address. Most people with phones have notifies sent to their phone's sms/mms email address so it comes out as an instant message. People with a "normal" email address may have their client set up to pull mail in only ever 5 or 10 minutes. But the emails all go out at the same time.

Well MSN notifies me the instant an email comes in, I load up the page and theres one or more finds at least 45mins prior to the time i got the notify and it happens with many different hiders so its not just one hider giving friends the cache info.

An email address is not just an email address, its possible wireless phone domains are in a priority database they could very well be ahead in line. i'm not the only one thats noticed this.

[+power69]

Groundspeak seems to also be giving notifies to smartphones before normal email addies so its all about the haves vs. the havenots.

 

Huh? I don't think so. An email address is an email address. Most people with phones have notifies sent to their phone's sms/mms email address so it comes out as an instant message. People with a "normal" email address may have their client set up to pull mail in only ever 5 or 10 minutes. But the emails all go out at the same time.

 

Ssshhhhhhhh. I like being a have.

Are you a platinum member?

[+Frank Broughton]

dear people,

 

what are the accurate rules for a FTF log??

 

greetings,

paulg92

 

I don't think the dear people visit these forums. I've seen dog people and cat people here though...

 

Might want to ask them.

 

 

edited to add the quote. Mostly to prove to a certain cat person I can.

 

Lots of dog people - stick around you just tossed a stick that they will not refuse to chase!

 

EDIT: Yeppers they did chase it - big time too..... {grin}

Edited December 10, 2011 by Frank Broughton

[+GeoBain]

Groundspeak seems to also be giving notifies to smartphones before normal email addies so its all about the haves vs. the havenots.

 

Huh? I don't think so. An email address is an email address. Most people with phones have notifies sent to their phone's sms/mms email address so it comes out as an instant message. People with a "normal" email address may have their client set up to pull mail in only ever 5 or 10 minutes. But the emails all go out at the same time.

 

Ssshhhhhhhh. I like being a have.

Are you a platinum member?

 

(Palladium)

[+briansnat]

In my opinion, it makes no difference who logged online first, it is the physical logbook that determines the FTF

 

I doubt you'd get much argument with that.

[+ChileHead]

In my opinion, it makes no difference who logged online first, it is the physical logbook that determines the FTF

 

I doubt you'd get much argument with that.

 

Really? You must be new here.

[+Flintstone5611]

I don't think you'd want to argue with a bear as to who gets the FTF...

If a bear wants FTF, he can have it.

 

Yeah but he won't post it on his profile, so your good!

 

I won't either, so I guess you can have it.

 

Don't tempt me, I am somewhat shameless.

[+Legochugglers]

A lot of over complication here in my opinion.

FTF is the ........First to find the cache and sign the log. Simples.

 

If you dont sign the log you cant confirm you're first to find

[+frinklabs]

Groundspeak seems to also be giving notifies to smartphones before normal email addies so its all about the haves vs. the havenots.

 

Huh? I don't think so. An email address is an email address. Most people with phones have notifies sent to their phone's sms/mms email address so it comes out as an instant message. People with a "normal" email address may have their client set up to pull mail in only ever 5 or 10 minutes. But the emails all go out at the same time.

Well MSN notifies me the instant an email comes in, I load up the page and theres one or more finds at least 45mins prior to the time i got the notify and it happens with many different hiders so its not just one hider giving friends the cache info.

An email address is not just an email address, its possible wireless phone domains are in a priority database they could very well be ahead in line. i'm not the only one thats noticed this.

 

I have asked for an enhancement to a feature request that would add automatic time stamping of Publish logs. This functionality would go a long way towards efficient troubleshooting of temporal differences between the publish and notify events.

[+CanadianRockies]

A lot of over complication here in my opinion.

FTF is the ........First to find the cache and sign the log. Simples.

 

If you dont sign the log you cant confirm you're first to find

Alas, it really isn't as simple as it might first seem. First, just because you cannot confirm that you were the first to find doesn't necessarily mean that you weren't the first to find. Second, couldn't you confirm that you were the first to find by photographing the empty log -- even if you didn't sign it? Third... Fourth... Fifth...

Edited December 10, 2011 by CanadianRockies

[+Legochugglers]

A lot of over complication here in my opinion.

FTF is the ........First to find the cache and sign the log. Simples.

 

If you dont sign the log you cant confirm you're first to find

Alas, it really isn't as simple as it might first seem. First, just because you cannot confirm that you were the first to find doesn't necessarily mean that you weren't the first to find. Second, couldn't you confirm that you were the first to find by photographing the empty log -- even if you didn't sign it? Third... Fourth... Fifth...

Sorry, I cant accept that. You find a cache that has just been published, you open it, there is a log book to log your find. If nobody has signed it than you sign it as the FTF. Timing of internet logs, taking pictures etc etc means nothing. There is only one rule for FTF ie you are FTF and sign the log.

[+CanadianRockies]

A lot of over complication here in my opinion.

FTF is the ........First to find the cache and sign the log. Simples.

 

If you dont sign the log you cant confirm you're first to find

Alas, it really isn't as simple as it might first seem. First, just because you cannot confirm that you were the first to find doesn't necessarily mean that you weren't the first to find. Second, couldn't you confirm that you were the first to find by photographing the empty log -- even if you didn't sign it? Third... Fourth... Fifth...

Sorry, I cant accept that. You find a cache that has just been published, you open it, there is a log book to log your find. If nobody has signed it than you sign it as the FTF. Timing of internet logs, taking pictures etc etc means nothing. There is only one rule for FTF ie you are FTF and sign the log.

That seems to be a reasonable way for you to play the FTF game. I'm just saying that you shouldn't expect everyone to play the game the same way you do. Real life isn't that simple.

[+Legochugglers]

A lot of over complication here in my opinion.

FTF is the ........First to find the cache and sign the log. Simples.

 

If you dont sign the log you cant confirm you're first to find

Alas, it really isn't as simple as it might first seem. First, just because you cannot confirm that you were the first to find doesn't necessarily mean that you weren't the first to find. Second, couldn't you confirm that you were the first to find by photographing the empty log -- even if you didn't sign it? Third... Fourth... Fifth...

Sorry, I cant accept that. You find a cache that has just been published, you open it, there is a log book to log your find. If nobody has signed it than you sign it as the FTF. Timing of internet logs, taking pictures etc etc means nothing. There is only one rule for FTF ie you are FTF and sign the log.

That seems to be a reasonable way for you to play the FTF game. I'm just saying that you shouldn't expect everyone to play the game the same way you do. Real life isn't that simple.

 

I agree, there are always going to be the odd peculiarities that will emerge although the principle will always remain the same.

 

Our very first FTF was done with my boys on their way to school at about 8am. I signed the log and recorded our FTF online later that morning. I was horrified (but not as much as my boys) to see a simultaneous log on the listing claiming FTF. Luckily a third online log by one of the most prolific cachers in the UK confirmed that one of us had logged at one end of the log and the other had logged at the other. Soon sorted with an exchange of e-mails.

[+GeoBain]

A lot of over complication here in my opinion.

FTF is the ........First to find the cache and sign the log. Simples.

 

If you dont sign the log you cant confirm you're first to find

Alas, it really isn't as simple as it might first seem. First, just because you cannot confirm that you were the first to find doesn't necessarily mean that you weren't the first to find. Second, couldn't you confirm that you were the first to find by photographing the empty log -- even if you didn't sign it? Third... Fourth... Fifth...

Sorry, I cant accept that. You find a cache that has just been published, you open it, there is a log book to log your find. If nobody has signed it than you sign it as the FTF. Timing of internet logs, taking pictures etc etc means nothing. There is only one rule for FTF ie you are FTF and sign the log.

 

But it's not a rule. It's more of an accepted community norm.

[+Legochugglers]

A lot of over complication here in my opinion.

FTF is the ........First to find the cache and sign the log. Simples.

 

If you dont sign the log you cant confirm you're first to find

Alas, it really isn't as simple as it might first seem. First, just because you cannot confirm that you were the first to find doesn't necessarily mean that you weren't the first to find. Second, couldn't you confirm that you were the first to find by photographing the empty log -- even if you didn't sign it? Third... Fourth... Fifth...

Sorry, I cant accept that. You find a cache that has just been published, you open it, there is a log book to log your find. If nobody has signed it than you sign it as the FTF. Timing of internet logs, taking pictures etc etc means nothing. There is only one rule for FTF ie you are FTF and sign the log.

 

But it's not a rule. It's more of an accepted community norm.

 

Aesthetic amendment for the sake of clarity for some;

 

There is only one community norm for a FTF ie you are FTF and sign the log.

[+Markwell]

Community norm or rule - whichever - implies that there needs to be some resolution to a dispute, and that someone will be acting against the norm, or against the rule (otherwise why have one).

 

The real crux of the adversarial posts in this thread is that Groundspeak does not condone or recognize "First to Find" races as part of the game of Geocaching. As a result, it is extremely unlikely that Groundspeak would get involved in settling difference between hiders or seekers on ethics of First to Find. While many individuals choose to participate in this side game (just like finding the most caches in a day, or having a larger find count than your competitor, or completing a set of icons) they are only unsanctioned side games to finding caches.

 

Me personally - I never liked being a beta-tester. Let someone else find the cache with bad or transposed coordinates. Then they tell the owner about them who then corrects the cache. THEN I'll find it.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Markwell

[+WarNinjas]

For me it just adds to the fun. I see one posted why not go out and try and be the FTF. Most times I fail but it is just another fun part of the game. I would never argue with anyone about it but I have found that some do.

Just the other day ago I seen some come up. I decided to go out there and someone was already at the first one signing it. He said get a head start for the next one. I said no way we could go together. We did and I ended up finding it first. I am not really worried about it as I am sure no one goes to my profile to be impressed by my FTF's. We ended up going for some other caches and it was fun.

He told me about a time there was a cache published and he went out and was FTF on it and signed the log. However in the description there was a time the park opened. He was there 30 min before the posted time of it opening. The next to find it said they were actually the FTF because he had cheated and gone in before it had opened. This cacher I was caching with said he gave in and agreed that the other finder got to mark it as FTF. I can see the point but I would have told the other guy to go kick rocks!

This was not in my area but I can see there is a lot of FTF drama in that area as I looked at the logs later and most of them mentioned that they were not there as quick as the FTF hounds. If you are not a FTF hound why would you mention that in your log?

Anyways I think it just adds to the fun. If there is one near my house I might save it for a rainy day but if the FTF is available why not go grab it.

-WarNinjas

[+dfx]

If you're the first person to find the cache then you are FTF. There are no rules.

 

and sign the physical log.

 

SS

 

If you found it you found it. It's a fact. It's not something one decides or votes on. It just is.

 

So much for no rules and no opinions

 

I agree with signing the log. If you don't sign the log (or rather, if you don't look at it), how do you know that you were first? And if you don't sign it, how would the next cacher know that they were not first? Signing the log is essential for the FTF game, which is also why I find FTFs on earthcaches and the likes kinda silly.

 

If I find something first, I found it first. If you found it first but didn't sign the log and then I found it, I may think I am FTF but you are still FTF regardless. I may get "credit" for FTF, but it doesn't change the fact that you were FTF.

while that is correct, it bears the question: what's a fact worth if nobody knows about it?

[+DanOCan]

FTF is the ........First to find the cache and sign the log. Simples.

 

Ah, how I wish that were the case. See this example?

 

He told me about a time there was a cache published and he went out and was FTF on it and signed the log. However in the description there was a time the park opened. He was there 30 min before the posted time of it opening. The next to find it said they were actually the FTF because he had cheated and gone in before it had opened.

 

There seems to be no limit to the amount of drama people will cause for a made-up number.

[knowschad]

FTF is the ........First to find the cache and sign the log. Simples.

 

Ah, how I wish that were the case. See this example?

 

He told me about a time there was a cache published and he went out and was FTF on it and signed the log. However in the description there was a time the park opened. He was there 30 min before the posted time of it opening. The next to find it said they were actually the FTF because he had cheated and gone in before it had opened.

 

There seems to be no limit to the amount of drama people will cause for a made-up number.

 

And then, there are those cases where the second to find fails to check both sides of the log for a prior signature, and proudly claim themselves to be FTF. How many of those have we heard here over the years?

[Brad_W]

The poster's question was answered within the first few posts so the topic is being closed.