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t4e

Charities in Event Listing

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please someone enlighten me and show me where in the guidelines does it say you can't mention donating something to a charity

 

what hidden guideline is this part of now?

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http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=307#solicit

 

Geocaches do not solicit for any purpose. Geocaches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is intended to be a light and enjoyable family-friendly hobby, not a platform for an agenda.

 

This is not new. This has been enforced for years.

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enforced for years? really?...why the exact same wording was allowed last year in the identical listing?

 

the cache listing has no agenda at all and does not promote anything, it just plain and simple declares, as a matter of fact, that excess items will go to charity

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Yes, for years. I know personally. Hard to say in this case without seeing the wording for either listing. Also keep in mind, no previous cache shall be used to justify another.

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if its been enforced for years the "precedence" rule has no place at all

 

either its been enforced all along or its something new and precedence can't be used, can't be both, otherwise its really random...how the wind blows and there is really no consistency

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For reference, the sentence that was demanded to be removed from the cache listing is:

Any extra kids gifts will be donated after the event to a local charity.

And the quote from last year's identical event, which went by unchanged, was:

Any extra kids gifts will be donated after the event to a local charity.

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You mentioned a cache last year and another, I assume is a new listing. That would be a previous cache can't justify a new one. Again, without sering what was approved before and not now makes it very difficult to understand what the problem is. provifing details would help others to underdtand whst the issue is.

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Again, without sering what was approved before and not now makes it very difficult to understand what the problem is.

 

You can see it right there, from the links I posted. :unsure: The listings are identical, completely, 1:1, verbatim, copy paste. Do you think the CO just left that one sentence out, just to get it published, just to edit it in afterwards? :huh:

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Wow, that has to be a record. Not a very good way to win points with the reviewers.

 

Godwin's Law

 

what exactly are you talking about?...i replied to the popcorn eating thebruce, if you can't see the funny part in it that's too bad, i guess the two Seinfeld lovers will appreciate it

 

why do i need to win points with the reviewers anyway? i thought we are all equal and FREE to have an opinion :unsure:

Edited by t4e

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For reference, the sentence that was demanded to be removed from the cache listing is:

Any extra kids gifts will be donated after the event to a local charity.

And the quote from last year's identical event, which went by unchanged, was:

Any extra kids gifts will be donated after the event to a local charity.

 

Keith, the links to the two different events in the quoted posts..the underlined words are the links.

 

So the line hasn't been removed from the 2012 event?

It's still there in the cache listing for GC370WE ReGift-O-Rama 2012:

 

Any extra kids gifts will be donated after the event to a local charity.

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Have you not learned from your recent one week forum ban?

 

there was nothing to learn, my reply was directed strictly to thebruce

 

perhaps there is something to learn, now we can't even be fumy in this forums, and the guidelines are interpreted based on who you are, some get a slap on the wrist and the rest get banned

 

it is quite disheartening to see how things can get taken out of context and misinterpreted

Edited by t4e

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For reference, the sentence that was demanded to be removed from the cache listing is:

Any extra kids gifts will be donated after the event to a local charity.

And the quote from last year's identical event, which went by unchanged, was:

Any extra kids gifts will be donated after the event to a local charity.

 

Keith, the links to the two different events in the quoted posts..the underlined words are the links.

 

So the line hasn't been removed from the 2012 event?

It's still there in the cache listing for GC370WE ReGift-O-Rama 2012:

 

Any extra kids gifts will be donated after the event to a local charity.

 

I got stopped by a cop a couple of months back and he let me go because it was the end of his shift and the sun was shining or some other reason only God knows and is not telling anyone.

 

I am pretty certain it was not carte blanche to drive like a maniac from now on.

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Consider the following four statements.

 

1) I give my old clothes to a charity.

2) I give my clothes to a local charity.

3) I give my old clothes to the Brampton Charity For The Needy.

4) I give my old clothes to the Brampton Charity For The Needy because I believe they to the most with what is donated.

 

The first three are statements and the fourth is a statement with an opinion. At which point have I started promoting over just stating what I do with my old clothes? I am quite sure many will have different opinions on that and is why I think Groundspeak has leaned towards the 0 tolerance for many years. Some may have slipped through but that doesn't change the policy.

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I got stopped by a cop a couple of months back and he let me go because it was the end of his shift and the sun was shining or some other reason only God knows and is not telling anyone.

 

I am pretty certain it was not carte blanche to drive like a maniac from now on.

 

you are missing the point of this whole discussion...here it is in short

 

current event listing:

come out for a fun day of regifting, bring something to give to each other

and if any toys are left they will be donated to local charity

 

as opposed to an agenda:

this event is to collect toys for needy children a to support [insert name] Charity etc...and blabering about charities and how a lot of kids have no food and clothes and toys

 

it is just a word.....nothing in the guidelines says you can't use the word "charity" as a matter of fact...the listing doesn't even mention a specific name of the charity

 

"Solicitation and Commercial Content

 

Geocaches do not solicit for any purpose. Geocaches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted."

 

nowhere does the listing have any tones of being posted solely for charitable agenda

Edited by t4e

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So apparently Groundspeak no longer allows an intention of goodwill to be mentioned on a cache page as it's an agenda.

I mean, we don't want to risk the fact that leftover items getting donated to a charity might offend people who think they should be thrown out as garbage, or have people think that Groundspeak is somehow sponsoring.. charitable giving.. at Christmas..

:signalviolin:

Edited by thebruce0

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So apparently Groundspeak no longer allows an intention of goodwill to be mentioned on a cache page as it's an agenda.

I mean, we don't want to risk the fact that leftover items getting donated to a charity might offend people who think they should be thrown out as garbage, or have people think that Groundspeak is somehow sponsoring.. charitable giving.. at Christmas..

:signalviolin:

 

Well put. And now we are all on the same page.

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Have you not learned from your recent one week forum ban?

 

there was nothing to learn, my reply was directed strictly to thebruce

 

perhaps there is something to learn, now we can't even be fumy in this forums, and the guidelines are interpreted based on who you are, some get a slap on the wrist and the rest get banned

 

it is quite disheartening to see how things can get taken out of context and misinterpreted

 

My point was more to point out that such comments are not in line with the terms of

use for the forums, whether directed at me or other people in the forums. But this recent post seemed to

warrant a reminder that the stove is still hot.

 

Be as funny as you like as long as it remains within the guidelines of forum use set out by Groundspeak.

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I got it - business names can be used to direct people in cache listings now, but giving to charity can't be mentioned at all -- Groundspeak doesn't want to offend Mr. Potter.

Edited by thebruce0

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Have you not learned from your recent one week forum ban?

 

there was nothing to learn, my reply was directed strictly to thebruce

 

perhaps there is something to learn, now we can't even be fumy in this forums, and the guidelines are interpreted based on who you are, some get a slap on the wrist and the rest get banned

 

it is quite disheartening to see how things can get taken out of context and misinterpreted

 

My point was more to point out that such comments are not in line with the terms of

use for the forums, whether directed at me or other people in the forums. But this recent post seemed to

warrant a reminder that the stove is still hot.

 

Be as funny as you like as long as it remains within the guidelines of forum use set out by Groundspeak.

 

and my point is that there is nothing offensive in my reply, it is a parody on the Seinfeld for crying out loud...neither was the one that i got banned for...

 

i don't understand why the moderators feel the need to misinterpret things when the user himself was not offended and got the joke

 

but anyways i think you've started an off topic discussion here, which is against the forum rules, so i will extract myself from further replies to this subject

 

back on topic: the whole purpose of this thread is to obtain a logical explanation for misinterpreting the guidelines

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Hilarious.

 

Maybe a better wording will be "any extra toys will be blown up in a dumpster in front of 20 screaming kids on their birthdays."

 

Sounds like Groundspeak (and apparently Keith) would prefer and condone that behaviour before giving to charity. Or maybe it is just this one reveiwer. Course, previous actions by this reviewer would set precedent in their books.

 

As I mentioned in my latest, please ensure your supervisor contacts me.

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Some may have slipped through but that doesn't change the policy.

 

that is no excuse, is just applying the guidelines at random and being inconsistent

 

there are scores and scores of event caches for Christmas, and they are easy to google for, that talk about donating stuff to charity, some going as far as naming the charity :lol:

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don't you even come close to identifying them, t4e, or you may be blamed for getting them disabled and/or archived until fixed! :ph34r:

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You could just have it published with out the charity info and then once published put the charity info in. I'm just saying.

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don't you even come close to identifying them, t4e, or you may be blamed for getting them disabled and/or archived until fixed! :ph34r:

 

ooh no, i would never do that, i have my own integrity to live up to....i was going to paste the exact wording from one, but i realized that would aid in finding them

 

You could just have it published with out the charity info and then once published put the charity info in. I'm just saying.

 

yeap, looks like that is what we are being encouraged to do.. be dishonest

Edited by t4e

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You could just have it published with out the charity info and then once published put the charity info in. I'm just saying.

Oh, there's always an "easier" way... always. Do what you're told without question. Easiest way there is.

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...

 

Maybe a better wording will be "any extra toys will be blown up in a dumpster in front of 20 screaming kids on their birthdays."

 

Sounds like Groundspeak (and apparently Keith) would prefer and condone that behaviour before giving to charity. Or maybe it is just this one reveiwer. Course, previous actions by this reviewer would set precedent in their books.

 

 

That is absolutely absurd!!! Nowhere did Keith make a statement even closely stating that.

 

Your statement is inflammatory. It is the equivalent to someone stating "We need to tell attendees the excess toys will be donated to a charity otherwise they will automatically assume they are going to be thrown in a dumpster...."

 

Why do you have so little confidence in your attendees that they will assume the worst?

 

 

 

As I mentioned in my latest, please ensure your supervisor contacts me.

 

The appeals process is well documented. If you feel you are correct, you should contact Groundspeak Appeals.

 

 

.

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Maybe a better wording will be "any extra toys will be blown up in a dumpster in front of 20 screaming kids on their birthdays."

 

Sounds like Groundspeak (and apparently Keith) would prefer and condone that behaviour before giving to charity. Or maybe it is just this one reveiwer. Course, previous actions by this reviewer would set precedent in their books.

 

That is absolutely absurd!!! Nowhere did Keith make a statement even closely stating that.

Perhaps.

But you know what's also absolutely absurd?

Disallowed a disclaimer that leftover gifts at a post-Christmas gift-exchange will be donated to charity rather than thrown away.

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To recap:

 

CacheDrone reviewed a listing and published it; after it was published, he determined that there was agenda based content within the listing that should have been removed prior to publishing.

CacheDrone Disabled the listing and indicated that there may have been an oversight during the review process; specific content was identified and a request was made to have it removed.

 

---

 

By including the specific text "Any extra kids gifts will be donated after the event to a local charity" in the listing, one could have the opinion that the listing is emphasizing that attendees should bring toys, for the eventual benefit of a charity.

Even though this is a "good" cause... this is a cause - i.e. an agenda - and it does not belong in the cache listing.

 

As it stands, I concur with the request from CacheDrone to remove the line of text that is quoted in his original "Disable" note.

I am not the Reviewer dealing with the listing :) , however it appears that this was the only item that is preventing the listing from being "Enabled".

My hope is that the indicated content will be removed, the listing will be enabled... and the event will take place as I am sure folks will enjoy it.

Edited by RCA777

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So, part one is done Cachedrone. Follow through on the second request as well please. Delete me or have your supervisor contact me. I will also go through the appeals process, but since I have requested directly for your supervisor to contact me, I would expect the customer service rules to apply here and that you would not block that request.

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Giving is an agenda to spread good will.

There should be no gift exchange events.

Any mention of gifts should be disallowed from cache listings entirely.

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The part you forgot to mention RCA777 is where it was quite clearly indicated that the cache was not breaking any of the specified rules. I never said it was for a good cause. I merely stated excess would be donated to a charity. This does not indicate an agenda. An agenda would be if people were donated specifically towards the charity. They are not. They are giving toys to the children attending the event. After that I merely stated what would happen to the rest. Stating fact is against the rules now?

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To recap:

 

CacheDrone reviewed a listing and published it; after it was published, he determined that there was agenda based content within the listing that should have been removed prior to publishing.

CacheDrone Disabled the listing and indicated that there may have been an oversight during the review process; specific content was identified and a request was made to have it removed.

 

---

 

By including the specific text "Any extra kids gifts will be donated after the event to a local charity" in the listing, one could have the opinion that the listing is emphasizing that attendees should bring toys, for the eventual benefit of a charity.

Even though this is a "good" cause... this is a cause - i.e. an agenda - and it does not belong in the cache listing.

 

As it stands, I concur with the request from CacheDrone to remove the line of text that is quoted in his original "Disable" note.

I am not the Reviewer dealing with the listing :) , however it appears that this was the only item that is preventing the listing from being "Enabled".

My hope is that the indicated content will be removed, the listing will be enabled... and the event will take place as I am sure folks will enjoy it.

 

please, can the reviewers just take things at their face value and stop trying to read between the lines and put words ointo the horse's mouth?

 

the guidelines are very clear, they do not need twisting

 

you've taken the line out of context, put it back amongst the rest of the text and its nothing more than just a comment

 

More Details:

 

Each cacher (or family/group) that attends is asked to bring a wrapped gift of any size to "regift" to another cacher as well as an unopened small gift for kids (under $5.00 or so - please bring the same amount of kids gifts as you have children. ie: 2 kids = 2 gifts. Kids can regift too!). If you have no children it would be great if you brought a kid gift as well, but you aren't obligated. Any extra kids gifts will be donated after the event to a local charity.

 

but you seem to have a lot of insight, can you please tell me why there are events published that specifically say what charity they are supporting this year?

Edited by t4e

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The purpose of this event is not for a charity. The purpose is 're-gifting', caching said gifts, etc. What he is dealing with are the leftovers, if there are any, which there may not be. What if leftover food at an event was to feed homeless people? Guess you couldn't do that either. Well, yes you could, you just couldn't SAY you will in the listing. Shhhhhh..... us cachers don't want to be seen not being wasteful. It seems that the trick is, to leave out of the listing what you will do with leftover things and just put a sign up at the event stating what will be done with it in case anyone cares.

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You could just have it published with out the charity info and then once published put the charity info in. I'm just saying.

Oh, there's always an "easier" way... always. Do what you're told without question. Easiest way there is.

The dude abides? Not always an option, especially not if you believe strongly that you're right and stand up for what you believe. This sure feels like deja-vu all over again. First we're being told that we cannot mention the FTF prize in a listing if it relates to a business. A lot of bitching ensues, debate about how this is totally nonsensical (and of course the usual suspects chiming in about how they actually agree with the original decision), only to find out later that maybe we can after all! It sure feels like deja-vu all over again. Did I say that already? :lol:

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I'd be willing to remove the word "local" since it might construe an agenda to provide to a charity within a specified radius. Suppose I could remove the word "after " as well since that precludes any charities who might be only open during the specific event time and date, therefore providing an agenda. "Extra" could also be removed since my agenda there might be to be specific on which gifts should be given.

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The part you forgot to mention RCA777 is where it was quite clearly indicated that the cache was not breaking any of the specified rules. I never said it was for a good cause. I merely stated excess would be donated to a charity. This does not indicate an agenda. An agenda would be if people were donated specifically towards the charity. They are not. They are giving toys to the children attending the event. After that I merely stated what would happen to the rest. Stating fact is against the rules now?

 

I am being presumptuous I have to admit; I am assuming the charity is a good cause :ph34r::)

 

Seeing as you've asked... if I were to read an event listing that said "Bring a kids toy for a gift exchange", I might bring one. Maybe.

If I read that "leftover toys will be given to charity"... then I'd feel like a heel if I didn't bring something... and I might even bring one extra.

Admittedly, I'm no saint -- I'm not going to be running out and grabbing arm-fulls of XBox 360's... but I might spend another $5 at the clearance warehouse, coz your listing tweaked my sense of guilt.

 

Yes, I'm easily guilted.

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but would you agree that the cache itself is not posted for any charitable agenda? Does it solicit? Within the cache it merely states what I would do with the excess. By the definition provided by Groundspeak itself, I am not breaking any rules. The reviewer in this case has decided to take it upon himself to bend the definitions to suit his needs.

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... I guess I'd rather see the text removed from the listing, the CO enable it, the event to happen and for everyone to have a good time.

...and THEN as a side process, the CO could pursue the matter with Groundspeak... .and I would hope that would sort stuff out in anticipation of next years' event.

 

I don't usually pay much attention to this stuff, but I think it's because I see a "good thing" (the event) that might not "be happening" over one of the more common Listing Guidelines and it troubles me.

 

I was a kid. I liked getting toys.

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Event! (geocaching related - for people, or people related to people, who geocache)

Items will be there. Kids will be there. Items will be related to kids. Transference will happen from one owner to another (of items, not kids, unless you wish).

In the building at the posted coordinates (or you may remain outside if you wish).

Evening (you may come earlier, but you may find no one there for the same reason, or the door may be locked).

Fun (or potential net happiness increase among those in attendance).

Come (or don't).

No items will remain (the fate of items left behind will remain unknown in the context of this web page).

 

That should be safer, right? No agenda? Maybe? Or does that adjustment still offend anyone or make anyone feel guilty, whether in attendance or not, in any way whatsoever?

Edited by thebruce0

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I am pursuing it with Groundspeak now.

 

@thebruce0 - that is why some have resorted to simply putting a time on the cache event page and nothing else. I suspect though even the time could be construed as having an agenda.

Edited by GeeOCachers

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but would you agree that the cache itself is not posted for any charitable agenda? Does it solicit? Within the cache it merely states what I would do with the excess. By the definition provided by Groundspeak itself, I am not breaking any rules. The reviewer in this case has decided to take it upon himself to bend the definitions to suit his needs.

 

When I read the listing, it says that it is entirely optional for attendees to bring toys for kids gift exchange. That's not up for debate -- you have made that 100% clear. And that rocks.

BUT.... when I read the line saying that any leftovers will be given to a local charity.... then that's a good cause.... so it IS a cause.

 

The local charity, even though you haven't chosen it/named it/said that they give toys to needy kids who have x, y or z needs etc.... IS a cause and therefore, it's an agenda.

So, yeah... I would say that was an agenda.

 

"This event invites people to bring kids toys for a gift exchange. If there are leftover toys, they will be given to charity".

That makes this a charitable event, in my mind.

 

Realistically... you aren't going to toss any leftovers in the garbage when the event is over; that's a waste. Everyone "gets" that.

However, by saying that leftovers will go to charity... I'd be standing at the mall with $10 in my pocket, thinking "Do I get fries and gravy.... or do I buy a kid a gift? It's for a good cause".

 

That line of text changes my perception of the event -- and perhaps that's why I feel so bad about it not being "Enabled" and not "happening".

I know "someone" is going to lose out if it doesn't happen... which kinda sorta tells me... it had an agenda.

 

I appreciate that you are not "holding an event in support of xyz" charity -- but I already hopped on the "it's a good cause" bandwagon when I read it... and that's what the Listing Guidelines (and CacheDrone) are trying to avoid.

 

Edit: Adding "gift exchange" after "toys for kids" above

Edited by RCA777

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Except that many event caches state charity in some form or other (and, this one is identical to past years' events), which by inference were "overlooked" in the review process.

 

(...and, cue 'no precedent' fallback...)

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Thanks for your input. I have escalated it to above the reviewer. If they wish to concur with their volunteer, then I can clearly state that I disagree with the rules and I will figure something out. However, I have some hope left in humanity that others will see what a farce the application of the rules in this case are and will overturn the so called ruling.

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I'm sure it will be a fun event for all attendees -- perhaps we can compare notes afterwards? -- Folks out here in COG-land would probably enjoy the Step 4/Hunt idea at an event once the snow has gone!

 

All the best,

RCA777

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I'm sure it will be a fun event for all attendees -- perhaps we can compare notes afterwards? -- Folks out here in COG-land would probably enjoy the Step 4/Hunt idea at an event once the snow has gone!

 

All the best,

RCA777

 

Don't wish away the snow too fast. :) I am hoping for a fresh falling for my event. :)

 

 

 

.

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BUT.... when I read the line saying that any leftovers will be given to a local charity.... then that's a good cause.... so it IS a cause.

 

The local charity, even though you haven't chosen it/named it/said that they give toys to needy kids who have x, y or z needs etc.... IS a cause and therefore, it's an agenda.

So, yeah... I would say that was an agenda.

 

"This event invites people to bring kids toys for a gift exchange. If there are leftover toys, they will be given to charity".

That makes this a charitable event, in my mind.

 

Wow, that's really stretching it. A charitable event would be "bring toys so that they can be given to the charity." That's not what it says and that's not what was intended either (and honestly I don't see how anyone could read that into it).

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