Cache thief, stealing caches, leaving nasty comments, forcing reviewer into archiving them and now is going to city council to have geocaching banned.

[knowschad]

In many instances, land owners / managers do not want to be bothered by people asking if they can play their game on this property. If you ask, they may not give an answer or they may say "Sure, but we reserve the right to ask you to stop at anytime in the future". Sometimes, if people keep asking they are unwilling to develop a formal policy so they take the approach of informally saying "no" to those who ask but keep turning a blind eye to those that don't.

 

Early on, some geocachers proposed the "Frisbee rule". It basically says, if you would play a game of Frisbee without asking permission, then you can hide a geocache without asking. Now, hiding and searching for geocaches is not exactly Frisbee. For one you actually leave a physical object in place for a long period of time (although if your Frisbee ends up on the roof it may stay there for a long period of time as well). For another, non-geocachers are not as used to seeing someone looking for a cache as they are seeing a couple of people tossing a Frisbee. You need to consider how your container and the actions of geocachers seeking it will be perceived by the public and the manager of the property where you place it.

 

Reviewers accept that some property owners and land managers don't have geocaching policies but would most likely be comfortable with geocaches placed on their property. When reviewers know of a particular policy they will ensure that proper permission was received. Certainly if an area is posted to limit access, the assumption that it is OK to play there is not valid. In general, it is the responsibility of the hider to determine what is adequate permission.

 

Sometimes problems occur when a property that has implicit adequate permission borders on one that requires something more explicit. Sometimes cachers looking for a shorter way to the cache will trespass through another property. Sometimes the people on one property get concerned when they see suspicious looking cachers nearby. Sometimes the boundaries are not marked on the ground and there is a dispute as to whether the cache is on one property of another. It is a good idea for cache hiders to be aware of these potential problems when selecting a location for a cache. I know that sometimes reviewers will point out these issue and that it can hold up a cache being published.

 

Thank you... I was just coming here to write essentially the same thing, particularly your opening paragraph. So, please allow me to add, "Ditto"

 

In short, it's better to ask for forgiveness than ask for permisssion.

 

Not at all. You apparently didn't really read that, did you? Start again at the line that reads, "Some land managers would rather not be bothered by people asking if they can play their game" on this property. .

[Pup Patrol]

Coldgears, hope you saw this post:

 

OMG

 

Please please do not suggest that random cachers go to Township Council.

 

South Jersey Geocaching (sjgeocaching.org - membership is free) has a representative who has worked with various municipalities and PD's to introduce Geocaching. That volunteer knows what she is doing.

 

The first two archive logs in the post that started this thread were MY caches. The problem there has nothing to do with private property issues.

 

So far we have had a friendly relationship with Medford PD, despite several provocations by reckless cache owners, and despite nasty things having been said about MPD in logs on forums. Those of us who live in Medford would like to keep it that way.

 

A while back there was an issue, and cachers who don't even live here were talking about marching in to a Council meeting to demand that the MPD be somehow stopped from interfering with geocachers. The issue at that time was a cacher who ignored the "day time only" warning on the cache page. Neighbors called police - police responded by having the cache removed. They work for the local taxpayers, not the geocaching community - they were right to do so. If Township Council felt that geocachers coming in from out of town were creating a problem, they could simply ban the game from township parks.

 

So - please - don't tell people - even local cachers - to take matters into their own hands. We already have an organization equipped to work on this.

 

 

wait a minute....where's Coldgears gone?

[+Gan Dalf]

 

 

wait a minute....where's Coldgears gone?

 

He threw a tantrum and left because someone said he was 12...

[+tozainamboku]

 

In short, it's better to ask for forgiveness than ask for permisssion.

 

Not at all. You apparently didn't really read that, did you? Start again at the line that reads, "Some land managers would rather not be bothered by people asking if they can play their game" on this property. .

 

Actually there it more to it than that.

 

First of all the expression is "It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission".

 

Next, the description I gave above doesn't say that you should assume there is adequate permission. A geocacher should do due diligence in determining whether they need to ask permission. If there are other caches placed in lands under a particular jurisdiction, you can ask the owners what permission they got. If they just assumed adequate permission and the caches have been around for a while, that may be an indication that that land manager has no objection to caching.

 

A general rule of thumb, if you place a cache on private property you should ask permission. If you place a cache on public property, try to determine the agency responsible for that property. Look on their website to see if they have a geocaching policy. If they do, follow it. If they don't, you might try the Frisbee rule. Would you play Frisbee there without asking permission? Don't forget to consider the differences between geocaching and playing Frisbee. If the land manager has other rules (e.g., stay on marked trails), place your cache in accordance with these rules. Be sure to follow Groundspeak guidelines as well. Choose an appropriate container and label it as a geocache if possible. The land manager may decide in the future that they don't want caches or that that want to institute a formal permit process. If that happens, comply with the new regulations. In the meantime enjoy the cache places with adequate permission.

[+crsandtweetygirl]

For one or both, please don't backtrack or revise your explanations on my account. I'm not opposed to you not asking for permission, you hold the responsibility. I helped to start a cache by asking permission, and did make ANY assumptions, and did not lump "some" people into a reason to justify not asking for permission in any or all cases. I respect tozainamboku's answer.

[Pup Patrol]

 

 

wait a minute....where's Coldgears gone?

 

He threw a tantrum and left because someone said he was 12...

 

Nah, he's over in OT:

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=286536

[TorgtheViking]

 

In short, it's better to ask for forgiveness than ask for permisssion.

 

Not at all. You apparently didn't really read that, did you? Start again at the line that reads, "Some land managers would rather not be bothered by people asking if they can play their game" on this property. .

 

Actually there it more to it than that.

 

First of all the expression is "It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission".

 

Next, the description I gave above doesn't say that you should assume there is adequate permission. A geocacher should do due diligence in determining whether they need to ask permission. If there are other caches placed in lands under a particular jurisdiction, you can ask the owners what permission they got. If they just assumed adequate permission and the caches have been around for a while, that may be an indication that that land manager has no objection to caching.

 

A general rule of thumb, if you place a cache on private property you should ask permission. If you place a cache on public property, try to determine the agency responsible for that property. Look on their website to see if they have a geocaching policy. If they do, follow it. If they don't, you might try the Frisbee rule. Would you play Frisbee there without asking permission? Don't forget to consider the differences between geocaching and playing Frisbee. If the land manager has other rules (e.g., stay on marked trails), place your cache in accordance with these rules. Be sure to follow Groundspeak guidelines as well. Choose an appropriate container and label it as a geocache if possible. The land manager may decide in the future that they don't want caches or that that want to institute a formal permit process. If that happens, comply with the new regulations. In the meantime enjoy the cache places with adequate permission.

 

 

First of all the your sentence "Actually there it more to it than that" should be said as "Actually there is more to it than that.

 

Second, the issue of Plagiarism. The expression "It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission". was quoted by Rear Admiral Grace Hopper

As quoted in U.S. Navy's Chips Ahoy magazine (July 1986). Plagiarism is frowned upon so state your source!

Edited December 6, 2011 by TorgtheViking

[+crsandtweetygirl]

 

In short, it's better to ask for forgiveness than ask for permisssion.

 

Not at all. You apparently didn't really read that, did you? Start again at the line that reads, "Some land managers would rather not be bothered by people asking if they can play their game" on this property. .

 

Actually there it more to it than that.

 

First of all the expression is "It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission".

 

Next, the description I gave above doesn't say that you should assume there is adequate permission. A geocacher should do due diligence in determining whether they need to ask permission. If there are other caches placed in lands under a particular jurisdiction, you can ask the owners what permission they got. If they just assumed adequate permission and the caches have been around for a while, that may be an indication that that land manager has no objection to caching.

 

A general rule of thumb, if you place a cache on private property you should ask permission. If you place a cache on public property, try to determine the agency responsible for that property. Look on their website to see if they have a geocaching policy. If they do, follow it. If they don't, you might try the Frisbee rule. Would you play Frisbee there without asking permission? Don't forget to consider the differences between geocaching and playing Frisbee. If the land manager has other rules (e.g., stay on marked trails), place your cache in accordance with these rules. Be sure to follow Groundspeak guidelines as well. Choose an appropriate container and label it as a geocache if possible. The land manager may decide in the future that they don't want caches or that that want to institute a formal permit process. If that happens, comply with the new regulations. In the meantime enjoy the cache places with adequate permission.

 

 

First of all the your sentence "Actually there it more to it than that" should be said as "Actually there is more to it than that.

 

Second, the issue of Plagiarism. The expression "It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission". was quoted by Rear Admiral Grace Hopper

As quoted in U.S. Navy's Chips Ahoy magazine (July 1986). Plagiarism is frowned upon so state your source!

 

"Actually there it more to it than that" quoted by Tozainamboku

 

Nah! It's okay for Mr. Tozainamboku to be critical of other peoples grammer and not that of his own.

[+Coldgears]

Coldgears, hope you saw this post:

 

OMG

 

Please please do not suggest that random cachers go to Township Council.

 

South Jersey Geocaching (sjgeocaching.org - membership is free) has a representative who has worked with various municipalities and PD's to introduce Geocaching. That volunteer knows what she is doing.

 

The first two archive logs in the post that started this thread were MY caches. The problem there has nothing to do with private property issues.

 

So far we have had a friendly relationship with Medford PD, despite several provocations by reckless cache owners, and despite nasty things having been said about MPD in logs on forums. Those of us who live in Medford would like to keep it that way.

 

A while back there was an issue, and cachers who don't even live here were talking about marching in to a Council meeting to demand that the MPD be somehow stopped from interfering with geocachers. The issue at that time was a cacher who ignored the "day time only" warning on the cache page. Neighbors called police - police responded by having the cache removed. They work for the local taxpayers, not the geocaching community - they were right to do so. If Township Council felt that geocachers coming in from out of town were creating a problem, they could simply ban the game from township parks.

 

So - please - don't tell people - even local cachers - to take matters into their own hands. We already have an organization equipped to work on this.

 

 

wait a minute....where's Coldgears gone?

 

I've been reading this thread. Just haven't had much I wanted to inject into the conversation of my own.

 

I saw the post, and I agree. Quoting it and saying "QFT" or "I agree" won't help much.

 

Within only 15 miles from my home location, this is definitely a local issue, even if it is not in my state.

[Mr.Yuck]

Coldgears, hope you saw this post:

 

OMG

 

Please please do not suggest that random cachers go to Township Council.

 

South Jersey Geocaching (sjgeocaching.org - membership is free) has a representative who has worked with various municipalities and PD's to introduce Geocaching. That volunteer knows what she is doing.

 

The first two archive logs in the post that started this thread were MY caches. The problem there has nothing to do with private property issues.

 

So far we have had a friendly relationship with Medford PD, despite several provocations by reckless cache owners, and despite nasty things having been said about MPD in logs on forums. Those of us who live in Medford would like to keep it that way.

 

A while back there was an issue, and cachers who don't even live here were talking about marching in to a Council meeting to demand that the MPD be somehow stopped from interfering with geocachers. The issue at that time was a cacher who ignored the "day time only" warning on the cache page. Neighbors called police - police responded by having the cache removed. They work for the local taxpayers, not the geocaching community - they were right to do so. If Township Council felt that geocachers coming in from out of town were creating a problem, they could simply ban the game from township parks.

 

So - please - don't tell people - even local cachers - to take matters into their own hands. We already have an organization equipped to work on this.

 

 

wait a minute....where's Coldgears gone?

 

I've been reading this thread. Just haven't had much I wanted to inject into the conversation of my own.

 

I saw the post, and I agree. Quoting it and saying "QFT" or "I agree" won't help much.

 

Within only 15 miles from my home location, this is definitely a local issue, even if it is not in my state.

 

There's only one thing you can do, at this point. #occupymedford that'll teach them.

[TorgtheViking]

This is a boring topic. If someone leaves their toy (geocache) in someone else’s backyard (property); go figure…yes it may go missing. No sympathy here. How about using inexpensive replacement caches? Better yet… find a new playground. Plenty of them out there.

[+tozainamboku]

First of all the your sentence "Actually there it more to it than that" should be said as "Actually there is more to it than that.

 

Second, the issue of Plagiarism. The expression "It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission". was quoted by Rear Admiral Grace Hopper

As quoted in U.S. Navy's Chips Ahoy magazine (July 1986). Plagiarism is frowned upon so state your source!

First of all I apologize for the typo. I hope we all realize that typos are common when writing in an online forum. Often after I've pressed Add Reply I'll see something I missed before and edit my mistakes. I wrote this last night and didn't bother to check it before going to bed.

 

The criticism of the original "It's better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission" was not pointing out a typographic or grammatical error. There is a difference between the meaning of better and the meaning of easier. Nowhere in my original post that was referred to did I say that it was better to assume adequate permission. In fact I thought I was pretty clear that you should only assume implied or adequate permission in limited circumstances. Initially I was going to state that while I didn't think it was better, we all might agree that it is easier to place a cache without getting permission. Whether or not you will have to ask for forgiveness afterwards and whether that forgiveness will be granted depends on the situation.

 

I was well aware that the phrase is attributed to Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper. It isn't at all clear that she was the first to use it. I considered giving her as the source but decided it wasn't necessary as the use of this quote (and versions of it) has become widespread. In retrospect, it would have been better to give credit and to spend more time editing my own typos.

 

Arguing over typographic and grammatical errors, or over giving the source of a quotation, doesn't really address any of the points made about adequate permission. Is this the best you can come up with to counter my explanation of why you don't always need to ask someone if you can place a cache there?

Edited December 6, 2011 by tozainamboku

[+GeoBain]

Arguing over typographic and grammatical errors, or over giving the source of a quotation, doesn't really address any of the points made about adequate permission.

 

Kind of like pointing out the difference between fingerspelling and signing doesn't really address the issue of signing logs, even though the link you supplied actually shows that fingerspelling has been incorporated into a number of sign languages around the world.

 

These manual alphabets (also known as finger alphabets or hand alphabets), have often been used in deaf education, and have subsequently been adopted as a distinct part of a number of sign languages around the world.

[Keystone]

Let's get back on topic.

 

Agree with him or not, Tozainamboku made a thoughtful post, and ought not be attacked over mundane details like quote attribution or spelling. Debate the issues instead.

[+hzoi]

I remember one cache I found where I was called to by an apparent land owner that told me I was "on private property" The fact that there was a fence between he and I made it pretty clear it was not HIS private property, but I simply responded " then I'll leave". My sense is he was disappointed when I didn't argue with him. I found the cache while taking the trail back to the geomobile)

Not to complicate the issue even further, but a fence may or may not mark the actual property boundary.

 

Exactly. I came across this all the time when I was searching property titles part time while in law school.

 

Sometimes fences are set back a few feet from the property line to accomodate easements -- whether road easements (right of way) or utility (power line, sewer, drainage).

 

Or when fences are set over the property line, it's called encroachment, and depending on the state law, if it's allowed to stand for long enough, that strip of land legally changes hands -- it's called adverse possession. To avoid that, people will set their fence back a foot or two.

 

Or, sometimes it's just nice to have a buffer. Many US military installations set their fences back from the actual oroperty line for security purposes.

[Clan Riffster]

...and ought not be attacked over mundane details like quote attribution or spelling.

Yeah, I've found that once folks start attacking your speeling, they've pretty much admitted that they've lost any argument they may be involved in.

 

Hzoi has a good point. From a law enforcement perspective, here in Florida, for someone to be charged with the offense of trespassing on a property other than a structure or conveyance, that person must have received notice that they were not supposed to be there. Florida allows for several different types of notice, to include being told, (either in person or in a written communique), signage indicating words to the effect of "Private Property" or "No Trespassing", fencing of any sort, ditches, or cultivation, such as orange groves or sod fields.

 

If someone owns a patch of land, such as a gated community, and doesn't fence the whole thing in, the most I can do, as a cop responding to a complaint of someone on the property, but outside the fence, is explain that they are on private property and the owner doesn't want them there.

 

At that point, the subject has received notice, per the statute, and can be arrested if they come back.

[+ELECTRICHEADX]

Speaking of Medford, looks like RPace9 wasn't the only resident trespassing where he didn't belong (heehee!): http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/12/nj-mayor-chris-myers-resigns-amid-gay-prostitute-scandal

 

Crazy! I hear he made Perez Hilton. It took Rabbi Neulander to put Cherry Hill in the national spotlight, apparently for Medford this small town Larry Craig will be the ticket.

[+Planet]

I have two cents to share.

 

1. Caches should not be hidden on condo grounds, it's private property, and a lousy place to bring people to be arrested. Permission from one condo owner is in no way sufficient, or adequate permission.

 

2. Lots of towns have setback regulations, that require property owners to keep their fences a certain number of feet away from the property line, so a fence doesn't necessarily mark a property line.

 

3. If the cache owner is no longer active, archive the ill-placed caches. He may not even live there any more to explain, or defend.

 

4. Why do we call it common sense, when it seems to be so rare? Use your noggin! Think how the finder will feel while searching for the cache. If it is going to make someone uncomfortable, it is probably not a good hide.

[+TheLoneGrangers]

Planet I couldn't agree with you more. Worth every .2 cents =)