Dishonest Cachers

[+agtmulder]

I'm just curious... Geocaching is based on the honour system, whether it be trading swag, or counting finds, or moving along coins and travel bugs. What do we do if we see someone who is misusing this honour system? I ask because one of my hides is a multi cache. A paid member marked it as found, and only found stage one... supposedly. There is no signature in the stage 3 log to prove it. I checked his/her profile, and of the 8 multis listed as found, 6 were stage one only, with various excuses why the multi was not completed. I would like the ability to erase that member's "find" until the task is fully completed. As the C.O., is there any way to do this? Should it even matter to me? Does this in any way lessen the value of a multi that required two hours and a long hike to contend with? Are we cheapening the hobby? Or, should I just "FIDO" (forget it, drive on)? I am interested in other cachers' opinions on this.

[+Ambient_Skater]

I would like the ability to erase that member's "find" until the task is fully completed. As the C.O., is there any way to do this?

Navigate to the log on the cache page and click on View Log to view it on its own page. There should be a delete button there.

[jholly]

You could delete the online log under the cache maintenance guideline declaring it a bogus log. It might cause some drama. But others also see his logs claiming the multi by doing only the first stage. If it were me I would just move on, it is not worth the drama. But of course it seriously degrades my opinion of that person. If someone were to ask me about him I would give an honest opinion. Ask your self, just how does this affect how you play the game?

[TorgtheViking]

I'm just curious... Geocaching is based on the honour system, whether it be trading swag, or counting finds, or moving along coins and travel bugs. What do we do if we see someone who is misusing this honour system? I ask because one of my hides is a multi cache. A paid member marked it as found, and only found stage one... supposedly. There is no signature in the stage 3 log to prove it. I checked his/her profile, and of the 8 multis listed as found, 6 were stage one only, with various excuses why the multi was not completed. I would like the ability to erase that member's "find" until the task is fully completed. As the C.O., is there any way to do this? Should it even matter to me? Does this in any way lessen the value of a multi that required two hours and a long hike to contend with? Are we cheapening the hobby? Or, should I just "FIDO" (forget it, drive on)? I am interested in other cachers' opinions on this.

 

There are cache owners out there where this does not matter; they do not pay attention to their logs. As CO you are completely justified in deleting the cacher's log (which deletes their find) if the cache did not complete the muli cache by NOT signing the log. I'd send a note to the cacher to of your intention so they can come back sign the log and claim the find.

[Mr.Yuck]

I'm just curious... Geocaching is based on the honour system, whether it be trading swag, or counting finds, or moving along coins and travel bugs. What do we do if we see someone who is misusing this honour system? I ask because one of my hides is a multi cache. A paid member marked it as found, and only found stage one... supposedly. There is no signature in the stage 3 log to prove it. I checked his/her profile, and of the 8 multis listed as found, 6 were stage one only, with various excuses why the multi was not completed. I would like the ability to erase that member's "find" until the task is fully completed. As the C.O., is there any way to do this? Should it even matter to me? Does this in any way lessen the value of a multi that required two hours and a long hike to contend with? Are we cheapening the hobby? Or, should I just "FIDO" (forget it, drive on)? I am interested in other cachers' opinions on this.

 

Did not realize you were somewhat local to me. Plain and simple, it's not dishonesty, it's cluelessness. N00bie Cacher. Joined in May. Has not hidden any caches of their own. Has not attended any events. Probably has not interacted with other Geocachers socially, even via emails.

 

I'd send him a friendly "that's not how we do it" email. Deleting would certainly cause drama. Of course if you get some whacky, defensive "screw you" type response then I would delete it, but you're unlikely to.

[+StarBrand]

....

I'd send him a friendly "that's not how we do it" email. Deleting would certainly cause drama. Of course if you get some whacky, defensive "screw you" type response then I would delete it, but you're unlikely to.

+1

[+niraD]

See also the knowledge books article:

Log Deletion

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

This one?

<snipped out as unnecessary>

 

Hmmmm... with the finds he/she has, one would think they would know better. But not having been back to finish for three months, they probably never intend to.

Regardless of time actually geocaching, there comes a time when a person should have learned the do's and don'ts. Perhaps it is time.

 

I shan't say what I would do. It is your call. Whatever you do, do it nicely. That's my suggestion.

[+Legochugglers]

Reading their logs on the Multi caches in question I think it is a genuine case of simply not understanding the process/etiquette. I agree with the other posts that suggest a polite e-mail to them advising them that their logs should be amended to 'Write note' logs so they still have a record of their visit which then leaves them open to record a find it log when they have completed and signed the final. Keep your request polite and advisory.

 

If they do not respond or they refuse then I would delete the log.

[+Ike 13]

I have a Challenge cache and over the summer a cacher with under 100 finds marked it as found. It's impossible to log this challenge cache with that few finds so I deleted their log and then sent an email nicely explaining why I did it. Never heard anything back.

[Mr.Yuck]

Ding Ding Ding!! We have a winner (me). Since this is somewhat local to me (The OP's only multi is 25.7 miles from my home coordinates, although in a different Country), I did a little Cyber Stalking OOOOPS, ERRRRRR, I mean Internet research. This is one of their "find logs" for one of their 8 multi-cache finds:

 

nice little park, found part one, couldnt figure out how to program phone for the second, will be back for it once I know how, TFTC!!

 

P.S. I can verify that his first multi-cache find, which I have found, does not require punching coordinates in, but rather walking X number of meters in a Southwesterly direction.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Mr.Yuck

[+Harry Dolphin]

....

I'd send him a friendly "that's not how we do it" email. Deleting would certainly cause drama. Of course if you get some whacky, defensive "screw you" type response then I would delete it, but you're unlikely to.

+1

 

Probably not dishonesty. More likely not understanding the guidelines. I'd probably send him/her a note explaining why I was deleting his/her find. But I would delete it.

[+The_Incredibles_]

That's bizarre. If it was a one-time thing, it could possibly be an accident. Sounds like this is not the case, though.

 

The trouble with deleting logs is they may get angry and muggle your caches.

 

Perhaps best thing is to send an email first, welcoming this cacher to log a 'note', but not a found.

 

Sometimes I like to log notes on a multi if I don't have time to continue. At least it lets others know the stages I found are in good shape.

[+taggdog]

 

The trouble with deleting logs is they may get angry and muggle your caches.

 

 

The cacher in question didn't find the cache so that shouldn't be a problem.

I guess they could muggle stage one though.

[AZcachemeister]

Having a log to sign in any stage other than the final invites this sort of issue.

[+Kochibu]

Honestly, being a "newbie" is not an excuse. Before people go caching, they should get to know about the basic rules and ethics of geocaching. I don't see how it is even possible to do such silly mistakes if you get yourself informed beforehand. I started caching in october this year, so I'm still a "newbie" myself. and I've never made a mistake like this. Whenever I come across something I don't understand, I take my time to find out what it's all about so I can do it properly. And it's never been a hard task do some obvious researching.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Kochibu

[+tozainamboku]

Honestly, being a "newbie" is not an excuse. Before people go caching, they should get to know about the basic rules and ethics of geocaching. I don't see how it is even possible to do such silly mistakes if you get yourself informed beforehand. I started caching in october this year, so I'm still a "newbie" myself. and I've never made a mistake like this. Whenever I come across something I don't understand, I take my time to find out what it's all about so I can do it properly. And it's never been a hard task do some obvious researching.

The biggest problem newbies like you have is confusing the online logs with a score. Sure you can make up rules as to what is the minimum you have to do in order to use an online find log. You may be able to make a reasonable argument that the general consensus is that you find the "final" cache and sign the physical log book in that cache. But there is no rule stating this and quite a few "experienced" cachers are willing to use the Found log if they couldn't sign the log or complete all the parts of a cache. Doing so isn't necessarily wrong, and you certainly shouldn't burn them in a fire (as you said before you edited your log). Is it any wonder that I sometimes use the word puritan to describe this attitude?

 

It appears that this cacher is simply unaware of the general consensus that you haven't found a multi until you find the final. This person is using the Found It log to report their geocaching experience. This is precisely what the website says the online log is used for. Since they found something (a stage of the cache) the Found log made the most sense to them.

 

Now you and I know that you can write a Note instead of using a Found or DNF log to report the progress on a multi cache. Perhaps a polite request from the cache owner to change the log to a note is all that is needed to educate this person as to what common practice is. The cache owner can always delete a found it log if the cache was not completed, but as stated it is best to do this politely and not get someone mad at you if they really believe they deserve a smiley. Some cache owners may choose to be non-confrontational and let the log stand. Some may even agree that a Found log is the appropriate log to use when you've found a stage of a multi. Stop inventing rule and ethics for the game that don't exist and you find you'll have more fun, especially when someone posts a story like this.

[+Coldgears]

Honestly, being a "newbie" is not an excuse. Before people go caching, they should get to know about the basic rules and ethics of geocaching. I don't see how it is even possible to do such silly mistakes if you get yourself informed beforehand. I started caching in october this year, so I'm still a "newbie" myself. and I've never made a mistake like this. Whenever I come across something I don't understand, I take my time to find out what it's all about so I can do it properly. And it's never been a hard task do some obvious researching.

Keep in mind, this is a game done for FUN, and ENTERTAINMENT, on your LEISURE TIME.

 

If someone ENJOYS the GAME by going out and finding it. Does it MATTER if he/she didn't sign the log? NO!

 

This game is meant to be FUN, and sometimes IT IS MORE FUN to learn the rules AS YOU GO ALONG.

 

How many times have you played a GAME (ANYTHING, a board game, a real life game, a video-game, a sport or a card game) and just FOLLOWED ALONG with it FIGURING IT OUT as you go along? Probably a few times.

 

This isn't a JOB. He HAD FUN, REGARDLESS of whether he found the FINAL. That is ALL THAT COUNTS!

 

I DON'T agree his log should stand, but I think there is a VALID EXCUSE for not SPENDING ALL THE TIME LEARNING EVERY INTRICACY.

[+taggdog]

This isn't a JOB. He HAD FUN, REGARDLESS of whether he found the FINAL. That is ALL THAT COUNTS!

 

I DON'T agree his log should stand, but I think there is a VALID EXCUSE for not SPENDING ALL THE TIME LEARNING EVERY INTRICACY.

 

Regardless if he had fun or not, he should not be claiming it as a find if he didn't find the final. I'm sure I would have fun finding a bunch of challenge caches but if I didn't qualify for them then I shouldn't be claiming them. It cheapens the effort of others if someone can claim a multi because he found stage one but not the final. The CO set the perameters for his cache and the cacher in question didn't meet them, therefore no find, regardless if he knew all the "intricacies" or not. Yes it is a game but even the most basic games have rules.

[+akkatracker]

Nobody really counts finds but i do know armchair loggers

[+JohnnyVegas]

I'm just curious... Geocaching is based on the honour system, whether it be trading swag, or counting finds, or moving along coins and travel bugs. What do we do if we see someone who is misusing this honour system? I ask because one of my hides is a multi cache. A paid member marked it as found, and only found stage one... supposedly. There is no signature in the stage 3 log to prove it. I checked his/her profile, and of the 8 multis listed as found, 6 were stage one only, with various excuses why the multi was not completed. I would like the ability to erase that member's "find" until the task is fully completed. As the C.O., is there any way to do this? Should it even matter to me? Does this in any way lessen the value of a multi that required two hours and a long hike to contend with? Are we cheapening the hobby? Or, should I just "FIDO" (forget it, drive on)? I am interested in other cachers' opinions on this.

Better watch out, this is the type of subject matter that can get you kicked out of the forums, I know I have been suspened twice

[Mr.Yuck]

I'm just curious... Geocaching is based on the honour system, whether it be trading swag, or counting finds, or moving along coins and travel bugs. What do we do if we see someone who is misusing this honour system? I ask because one of my hides is a multi cache. A paid member marked it as found, and only found stage one... supposedly. There is no signature in the stage 3 log to prove it. I checked his/her profile, and of the 8 multis listed as found, 6 were stage one only, with various excuses why the multi was not completed. I would like the ability to erase that member's "find" until the task is fully completed. As the C.O., is there any way to do this? Should it even matter to me? Does this in any way lessen the value of a multi that required two hours and a long hike to contend with? Are we cheapening the hobby? Or, should I just "FIDO" (forget it, drive on)? I am interested in other cachers' opinions on this.

Better watch out, this is the type of subject matter that can get you kicked out of the forums, I know I have been suspened twice

 

I don't think so, but I suppose you'd know! Only been banned once for 3 days.

 

A lot of people may be just reading the OP and replying, but I solved this mystery in post #11. Dude doesn't know how to put coordinates for a waypoint in the phone. It is indeed moderately difficult to figure out in the official Geocaching.com smartphone apps, but there's always plain old "GPS" apps, where I'm sure it's pretty easy.

[+t4e]

 

This isn't a JOB. He HAD FUN, REGARDLESS of whether he found the FINAL. That is ALL THAT COUNTS!

 

I DON'T agree his log should stand, but I think there is a VALID EXCUSE for not SPENDING ALL THE TIME LEARNING EVERY INTRICACY.

 

that reply is just plain wrong on many accounts, new cachers should be encouraged to read the Guidelines NOT make up their own

 

Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

 

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=309

 

i don't see the guideline saying "Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" if YOU HAD FUN".

 

if you want to play this game there is no valid excuse for not learning how to play

if you can't be bothered to learn perhaps you should pick a different hobby but that would be hard since every game has rules

[Mr.Yuck]

 

that reply is just plain wrong on many accounts, new cachers should be encouraged to read the Guidelines NOT make up their own

 

Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

 

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=309

 

i don't see the guideline saying "Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" if YOU HAD FUN".

 

if you want to play this game there is no valid excuse for not learning how to play

if you can't be bothered to learn perhaps you should pick a different hobby but that would be hard since every game has rules

 

I'm sure there are some people who have fun armchair logging virtuals. Some people have fun logging Pocket Caches brought to events and passed around for people to sign. But it's been made clear both those are against the rules. I remember surfing the website for about a week educating myself before I went out and looked for a cache (signed up an hour after I found it to log it). Knew what a Travel Bug was, and how they worked. Even used the word "muggle" in my very first cache log. Geocaching is not rocket science.

[knowschad]

You may be able to make a reasonable argument that the general consensus is that you find the "final" cache and sign the physical log book in that cache.

There is no reason to "make a reasonble argument" to that point. That IS the general consensus, with most also accepting that there are always extenuating circumstances where the log could not be signed, but that a Found It log is still acceptable. You are one of the few cachers that I know of that feels that there is no requirement to sign the log, and I know of no local cachers that would agree with you. (I also know of very few who verify the paper log, though)

[Pup Patrol]

Honestly, being a "newbie" is not an excuse. Before people go caching, they should get to know about the basic rules and ethics of geocaching. I don't see how it is even possible to do such silly mistakes if you get yourself informed beforehand. I started caching in october this year, so I'm still a "newbie" myself. and I've never made a mistake like this. Whenever I come across something I don't understand, I take my time to find out what it's all about so I can do it properly. And it's never been a hard task do some obvious researching.

Keep in mind, this is a game done for FUN, and ENTERTAINMENT, on your LEISURE TIME.

 

If someone ENJOYS the GAME by going out and finding it. Does it MATTER if he/she didn't sign the log? NO!

 

This game is meant to be FUN, and sometimes IT IS MORE FUN to learn the rules AS YOU GO ALONG.

 

How many times have you played a GAME (ANYTHING, a board game, a real life game, a video-game, a sport or a card game) and just FOLLOWED ALONG with it FIGURING IT OUT as you go along? Probably a few times.

 

This isn't a JOB. He HAD FUN, REGARDLESS of whether he found the FINAL. That is ALL THAT COUNTS!

 

I DON'T agree his log should stand, but I think there is a VALID EXCUSE for not SPENDING ALL THE TIME LEARNING EVERY INTRICACY.

 

Wrong again.

 

A valid excuse for deleting the log is the fact that the cacher didn't find the cache.

 

How hard is that to understand?

 

Do you understand what a multi-cache is?

 

Oh, wait, you log "found it" if you think you know where the cache is "supposed to be" or if you think you've "seen" the cache location.

 

Just because you play the game according to your own rules doesn't mean that a responsible cache owner needs to bend his perception of the game to yours.

[knowschad]

Honestly, being a "newbie" is not an excuse. Before people go caching, they should get to know about the basic rules and ethics of geocaching. I don't see how it is even possible to do such silly mistakes if you get yourself informed beforehand. I started caching in october this year, so I'm still a "newbie" myself. and I've never made a mistake like this. Whenever I come across something I don't understand, I take my time to find out what it's all about so I can do it properly. And it's never been a hard task do some obvious researching.

Keep in mind, this is a game done for FUN, and ENTERTAINMENT, on your LEISURE TIME.

 

If someone ENJOYS the GAME by going out and finding it. Does it MATTER if he/she didn't sign the log? NO!

 

This game is meant to be FUN, and sometimes IT IS MORE FUN to learn the rules AS YOU GO ALONG.

 

How many times have you played a GAME (ANYTHING, a board game, a real life game, a video-game, a sport or a card game) and just FOLLOWED ALONG with it FIGURING IT OUT as you go along? Probably a few times.

 

This isn't a JOB. He HAD FUN, REGARDLESS of whether he found the FINAL. That is ALL THAT COUNTS!

 

I DON'T agree his log should stand, but I think there is a VALID EXCUSE for not SPENDING ALL THE TIME LEARNING EVERY INTRICACY.

 

Wrong again.

 

A valid excuse for deleting the log is the fact that the cacher didn't find the cache.

 

How hard is that to understand?

 

Do you understand what a multi-cache is?

 

Oh, wait, you log "found it" if you think you know where the cache is "supposed to be" or if you think you've "seen" the cache location.

 

Just because you play the game according to your own rules doesn't mean that a responsible cache owner needs to bend his perception of the game to yours.

 

Let's request a new "Had Fun!" log type!

[+Coldgears]

 

Oh, wait, you log "found it" if you think you know where the cache is "supposed to be" or if you think you've "seen" the cache location.

 

Just because you play the game according to your own rules doesn't mean that a responsible cache owner needs to bend his perception of the game to yours.

 

I think you pretty much ignored my entire post.

 

When you learn a game as you go along, if you do something wrong, you obviously fix your mistake. Others, who know the game, will tell you.

 

The post I was replying to was saying there was not a valid excuse for logging a multi as a find unknowingly, I was disagreeing with that, nowhere, not one place, did I say I disagreed that the log is valid and should stand.

 

In fact, if you can comprehend these words, may I direct you to this sentence.

 

I DON'T agree his log should stand

[+zookeepertx]

Honestly, being a "newbie" is not an excuse. Before people go caching, they should get to know about the basic rules and ethics of geocaching.

 

Oh, but a lot of things SHOULD happen in life. I should have been born rich & look how THAT turned out, LOLOL!!

[+Mitragorz]

People can log whatever they want! If they didn't find the cache, there's still nothing stopping them from logging it as found. I could whiff on strike three and still run the bases. It won't count for anything, but nothing is preventing me from having some fun by running to home.

 

So this person is having fun by logging caches when he only finds the first stage. Oh well, he's having fun. If you have a problem with it, then delete the log and move on. Aren't they just "guidelines" anyway ;-)

 

Sitting here saying what people "can't" do is pointless, bc (obviously) people are going to log whatever they want anyway. All we can do is clean up the mess and try to provide a little guidance. Until caches utilize retinal and fingerprint scans, people are going to falsely, or accidentally, log finds. Oh well. Get over it.

 

Being a newbie is a perfectly logical excuse. The first time you played baseball, did you know every rule? You knew the "basic rules and ethics" but try explaining the infield fly rule to a kid who's stepping onto the field for the first time. There's always a learning curve. Nobody's going to do things perfectly.. Everyone makes mistakes, no one bats 1.000. Oh well. Get over it.

 

 

No, I don't think his log should stand. But I also don't think it's necessary to get so upset over it. Cut the guy some slack.

[+tozainamboku]

 

This isn't a JOB. He HAD FUN, REGARDLESS of whether he found the FINAL. That is ALL THAT COUNTS!

 

I DON'T agree his log should stand, but I think there is a VALID EXCUSE for not SPENDING ALL THE TIME LEARNING EVERY INTRICACY.

 

that reply is just plain wrong on many accounts, new cachers should be encouraged to read the Guidelines NOT make up their own

 

Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

 

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=309

 

i don't see the guideline saying "Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" if YOU HAD FUN".

 

if you want to play this game there is no valid excuse for not learning how to play

if you can't be bothered to learn perhaps you should pick a different hobby but that would be hard since every game has rules

The problem is that is not what the "rule" you quoted says. Unfortunately a bit of the history was lost in reorganization the guidelines, but you can still see it, if you don't quote the line out of context.

 

The phrase "Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed" was added to the guidelines as part of the change that told cache owners not to delete online logs because of an Additional Logging Requirement (ALR). In the forum discussion after this was changed, it was made clear by several Groundspeak Lackeys and volunteer reviewers that the change applies only to ALRs and was not intended make any new rules regarding when you could log a find online. It can be interpreted as meaning that if you sign the physical log the cache owner cannot delete your find. I think of it as applying to a cache that has a ALR. If you sign the log you can then log it online despite any ALR that the cache owner has made. In fact this view is supported by the fact that an exception for challenge caches was added to the original version. Challenge caches are in fact the one ALR that cache owners can still enforce.

 

That said a cache owner can (and should) delete online logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off-topic, or not within stated requirements. Under this guideline a cache owner who delete an online log because the physical log in the final stage was not signed, is likely to be supported by Groundspeak. For the most part, the best approach is to let newbies know that the general consensus it to have found the final of a multi and signed the log in order to log it as found online. If they don't voluntarily delete their find (or change it to a note), then you might consider deleting the find if you feel that strongly about it.

 

You may be able to make a reasonable argument that the general consensus is that you find the "final" cache and sign the physical log book in that cache.

There is no reason to "make a reasonble argument" to that point. That IS the general consensus, with most also accepting that there are always extenuating circumstances where the log could not be signed, but that a Found It log is still acceptable. You are one of the few cachers that I know of that feels that there is no requirement to sign the log, and I know of no local cachers that would agree with you. (I also know of very few who verify the paper log, though)

There is no requirement to sign the log. I have in the past given several good reasons for signing the physical log - including the simple one of it proves the online log is not bogus. The main difference I have with the consensus, is that I agree with Coldgears and Jeremy, this is a fun activity. "There's no prize, no leaderboard, and no trophy, so there's no reason to get your knickers in a twist about anyone else's definition of a find."

 

Remember the Puritans and the first Thanksgiving as you are enjoying your turkey dinner.

[Mr.Yuck]

 

Remember the Puritans and the first Thanksgiving as you are enjoying your turkey dinner.

 

On the surface, that line would have appeared to be handed to Mr. T on a silver platter. However, this incident clearly happened in Canada, where the 4th Thursday in November is just another Thursday.

 

People can log whatever they want! If they didn't find the cache, there's still nothing stopping them from logging it as found. I could whiff on strike three and still run the bases. It won't count for anything, but nothing is preventing me from having some fun by running to home.

 

So this person is having fun by logging caches when he only finds the first stage. Oh well, he's having fun. If you have a problem with it, then delete the log and move on. Aren't they just "guidelines" anyway ;-)

 

Sitting here saying what people "can't" do is pointless, bc (obviously) people are going to log whatever they want anyway. All we can do is clean up the mess and try to provide a little guidance. Until caches utilize retinal and fingerprint scans, people are going to falsely, or accidentally, log finds. Oh well. Get over it.

 

Being a newbie is a perfectly logical excuse. The first time you played baseball, did you know every rule? You knew the "basic rules and ethics" but try explaining the infield fly rule to a kid who's stepping onto the field for the first time. There's always a learning curve. Nobody's going to do things perfectly.. Everyone makes mistakes, no one bats 1.000. Oh well. Get over it.

 

 

No, I don't think his log should stand. But I also don't think it's necessary to get so upset over it. Cut the guy some slack.

 

I think the overwhelming opinion is to kindly and gently email the guy, and say "we don't do it that way", as far as logging a find for the first stage of a multi-cache, and say you're coming back some other day. And in the case of the OP's cache, that was over 3 months ago. Personally, I would never delete that log without an email conversation. And if I tried and the guy didn't answer back, I'd let it go.

[+Legochugglers]

 

This isn't a JOB. He HAD FUN, REGARDLESS of whether he found the FINAL. That is ALL THAT COUNTS!

 

I DON'T agree his log should stand, but I think there is a VALID EXCUSE for not SPENDING ALL THE TIME LEARNING EVERY INTRICACY.

 

that reply is just plain wrong on many accounts, new cachers should be encouraged to read the Guidelines NOT make up their own

 

Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

 

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=309

 

i don't see the guideline saying "Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" if YOU HAD FUN".

 

if you want to play this game there is no valid excuse for not learning how to play

if you can't be bothered to learn perhaps you should pick a different hobby but that would be hard since every game has rules

The problem is that is not what the "rule" you quoted says. Unfortunately a bit of the history was lost in reorganization the guidelines, but you can still see it, if you don't quote the line out of context.

 

The phrase "Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed" was added to the guidelines as part of the change that told cache owners not to delete online logs because of an Additional Logging Requirement (ALR). In the forum discussion after this was changed, it was made clear by several Groundspeak Lackeys and volunteer reviewers that the change applies only to ALRs and was not intended make any new rules regarding when you could log a find online. It can be interpreted as meaning that if you sign the physical log the cache owner cannot delete your find. I think of it as applying to a cache that has a ALR. If you sign the log you can then log it online despite any ALR that the cache owner has made. In fact this view is supported by the fact that an exception for challenge caches was added to the original version. Challenge caches are in fact the one ALR that cache owners can still enforce.

 

That said a cache owner can (and should) delete online logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off-topic, or not within stated requirements. Under this guideline a cache owner who delete an online log because the physical log in the final stage was not signed, is likely to be supported by Groundspeak. For the most part, the best approach is to let newbies know that the general consensus it to have found the final of a multi and signed the log in order to log it as found online. If they don't voluntarily delete their find (or change it to a note), then you might consider deleting the find if you feel that strongly about it.

 

You may be able to make a reasonable argument that the general consensus is that you find the "final" cache and sign the physical log book in that cache.

There is no reason to "make a reasonble argument" to that point. That IS the general consensus, with most also accepting that there are always extenuating circumstances where the log could not be signed, but that a Found It log is still acceptable. You are one of the few cachers that I know of that feels that there is no requirement to sign the log, and I know of no local cachers that would agree with you. (I also know of very few who verify the paper log, though)

There is no requirement to sign the log. I have in the past given several good reasons for signing the physical log - including the simple one of it proves the online log is not bogus. The main difference I have with the consensus, is that I agree with Coldgears and Jeremy, this is a fun activity. "There's no prize, no leaderboard, and no trophy, so there's no reason to get your knickers in a twist about anyone else's definition of a find."

 

Remember the Puritans and the first Thanksgiving as you are enjoying your turkey dinner.

 

I totally agree with all you say about geocaching and having fun. I have fun finding caches and signing the log. It is also a nice sense of achievement. I also have fun reading the logs on my own caches and the fact that they have had fun finding and signing the log.

 

I will also have fun deleting 'found it' logs on my caches when they didnt sign the logs, and when I do, i hope they remember that ' there's no prize, no leaderboard, and no trophy so I am sure you will not get your knickers in a twist'

[+t4e]

 

This isn't a JOB. He HAD FUN, REGARDLESS of whether he found the FINAL. That is ALL THAT COUNTS!

 

I DON'T agree his log should stand, but I think there is a VALID EXCUSE for not SPENDING ALL THE TIME LEARNING EVERY INTRICACY.

 

that reply is just plain wrong on many accounts, new cachers should be encouraged to read the Guidelines NOT make up their own

 

Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

 

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=309

 

i don't see the guideline saying "Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" if YOU HAD FUN".

 

if you want to play this game there is no valid excuse for not learning how to play

if you can't be bothered to learn perhaps you should pick a different hobby but that would be hard since every game has rules

The problem is that is not what the "rule" you quoted says. Unfortunately a bit of the history was lost in reorganization the guidelines, but you can still see it, if you don't quote the line out of context.

 

The phrase "Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed" was added to the guidelines as part of the change that told cache owners not to delete online logs because of an Additional Logging Requirement (ALR).

 

 

i don't agree with your interpretation at all

 

the line is not out of context at all and what you are saying is not what that guideline says....here's the context you think was missing...

 

For physical caches all logging requirements beyond finding the geocache and signing the log are considered additional logging requirements (ALRs) and must be optional.

 

pretty clear that you must find the cache and sign the log in order to log a find, anything else is an ALR

[+niraD]

Remember the Puritans and the first Thanksgiving as you are enjoying your turkey dinner.

For the record, the Pilgrims (Mayflower, the first American Thanksgiving, Plymouth Colony) and the Puritans (Massachusetts Bay Colony, modern geocaching stereotypes) were different groups.

[+niraD]

For physical caches all logging requirements beyond finding the geocache and signing the log are considered additional logging requirements (ALRs) and must be optional.

pretty clear that you must find the cache and sign the log in order to log a find, anything else is an ALR

I've reread that passage a few times in context, and I still don't see how it requires anyone to sign the log. It allows cache owners to require others to find the cache and sign the log, and it prohibits cache owners from requiring anything beyond that. But it doesn't say anything about logging requirements that fall short of finding the cache and signing the log.

 

But I think part of the reason people are talking past each other on this topic is that they interpret the earlier guideline differently:

Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

Some of us interpret this guideline as "Physical geocaches can be logged online as 'Found' if the physical log has been signed." This says nothing about what happens when the physical log has not been signed. Signing the physical log is sufficient for logging online, but it may or may not be necessary.

 

Others seem to interpret this guideline as "Physical geocaches can be logged online as 'Found' if and only if the physical log has been signed." This says that signing the physical log is both sufficient and necessary for logging online.

 

See the difference?

 

Let's look at the logic in a different context. Let's say I'm organizing a youth camping trip. I state: "Youth group members can go on the trip once they have paid the $50 fee." That means that any youth group member who pays the fee can attend the camping trip. But what about youth group members who have not paid the fee?

 

Since I want everyone to join the fun, I also state: "Youth group members can go on the trip once they have received a camping scholarship." This does not affect those who have paid the fee; they are still allowed to go camping. It just allows additional people to go camping, based on some other condition. But what about youth group members who have not paid the fee, and who have not received a camping scholarship?

 

Since I still want everyone to join the fun, I also state: "Youth group members can go on the trip once they complete a service project approved by the director." This does not affect those who have paid the fee or who have received a camping scholarship; they are still allowed to go camping. It just allows additional people to go camping, based on some other condition. And so on.

[+tozainamboku]

Remember the Puritans and the first Thanksgiving as you are enjoying your turkey dinner.

For the record, the Pilgrims (Mayflower, the first American Thanksgiving, Plymouth Colony) and the Puritans (Massachusetts Bay Colony, modern geocaching stereotypes) were different groups.

Thanks. I learned something new. The Pilgrims were in fact not Puritans, although they shared some theological beliefs, particular dissent against the Church of England. Apparently, the Puritans dissented less than the Pilgrims and other separatist groups. The Archbishop of York at the time, Matthew Hutton, showed some sympathy to the Puritans but could not abide either the separatist or the Catholics.

The Puritans, whose phantasticall zeale I mislike, though they differ in Ceremonies and accidentes, yet they agree with us in substance of religion, and I thinke all or the moste parte of them love his Majestie, and the presente state, and I hope will yield to conformitie. But the Papistes are opposite and contrarie in very many substantiall pointes of religion, and cannot but wishe the Popes authoritie and popish religion to be established.

 

 

i don't agree with your interpretation at all

 

the line is not out of context at all and what you are saying is not what that guideline says....here's the context you think was missing...

 

For physical caches all logging requirements beyond finding the geocache and signing the log are considered additional logging requirements (ALRs) and must be optional.

 

pretty clear that you must find the cache and sign the log in order to log a find, anything else is an ALR

As written the guidelines do seem to allow a cache owner to delete found logs if the physical log is not signed. However, they most certainly do not require that found logs be deleted, nor in my opinion, even encourage that they be deleted.

 

Some have read into the guideline that cache owners cannot delete found logs if the physical log was signed by the cacher. I disagree with this interpretation as well. If online logs appear bogus, counterfeit, off-topic, or otherwise inappropriate, the cache owner can, and should, delete the online logs. A signature in the physical log, among other things, serves as proof that the found log is not bogus. But there are other reasons that cache owner can have for deleting logs.

[knowschad]

Thanks. I learned something new. The Pilgrims were in fact not Puritans, although they shared some theological beliefs

I believe both groups could be considered to be "purists", though.

[+popokiiti]

We had a new cacher log a find on a multi we placed and they had only found stage one. Maybe they thought they got a smiley for each stage completed? Popoki Nui deleted the log with an explanatory note sent via pm. Cache got logged again as a find by this cacher, even though the multi wasn't completed. Log deleted and note explaining how to do a multi sent. The error wasn't repeated. I believe the log read something like "found first stage." Just e new cacher learning the ropes...

[+Whistlen]

I had someone place a piece of paper in the film can thinking the log was gone and ignored the disc with the cords to the next stage. I e-mailed them to return and find the rest as they were short-changing them self of the whole experience. Also, in the Greater Cleveland area, we have a few cachers who cheat by logging stuff like events that they didn't attend. Everyone knows that they cheat and they even brag about it. Not a crime but a darn shame that they expect us to celebrate with them when they hit 4K. If cheating is how they want to play, then have at it. It's a game, not life.

[Clan Riffster]

Should it even matter to me?

That's up to you. How involved do you want to be in controling the actions of others? Some folks are comfortable with having a lot of control over others, some folks are not. Where you fit on the scale would likely determine the answer to that. Personally, I consider this a pretty light hearted activity, and I play it to destress. Worrying about things like how many stages of a multi another player has found does little to reduce my stress level. As such, I tend toward "Meh". It's not something I would do, but I won't get my kilt in a bunch over it.

 

Does this in any way lessen the value of a multi that required two hours and a long hike to contend with?

How could it? Each person's experiences are utterly unique. For instance, I own a 5/5 Wherigo/Multi/Night cache that includes 2.5 miles of swampy bushwhacking, and solving 5 physical puzzles such as Rubik's cubes, to continue from zone to zone. Those who have done it say it's one of the most physically and mentally challenging caches they've ever done. One of the finders reported that another "finder" never signed the log, suspecting that they never even made the attempt. Based on certain other activities from this caching account, I tend to agree with that theory. I asked the person who reported the suspected bogus finder if they still felt that their experience at that cache was memorable, and they said, "Absolutely. Nothing can take those memories away". I share this attitude, as I've completed what were, for me, pretty challenging caches. Others have logged finds on some of them without ever leaving the trailhead and/or launch site. Their experience does not lessen mine in any measurable way.

[hoosier guy]

While in caching you will meet people who ignore the guidelines, who see the guidelines as gospel, only log caches they have found, will log a cache if someone they know finds it, doesn't log online, writes a book when they find a LPC, it boils dowm to this is an individual game. There are times to delete a log or take other action but those times are fewer than most of us think. Pick you battles my friend.

[Mr.Yuck]

While in caching you will meet people who ignore the guidelines, who see the guidelines as gospel, only log caches they have found, will log a cache if someone they know finds it, doesn't log online, writes a book when they find a LPC, it boils dowm to this is an individual game. There are times to delete a log or take other action but those times are fewer than most of us think. Pick you battles my friend.

 

Battles? Hardly. A clueless n00b who doesn't know how to enter waypoints that aren't cache coordinates into the Geocaching smartphone apps? As I've said for the 3rd time now, a nice, friendly email is the way to go. Deletion without explanation is NEVER the way to go. And that applies to any log deletion controversy, not just this one.

[hoosier guy]

While in caching you will meet people who ignore the guidelines, who see the guidelines as gospel, only log caches they have found, will log a cache if someone they know finds it, doesn't log online, writes a book when they find a LPC, it boils dowm to this is an individual game. There are times to delete a log or take other action but those times are fewer than most of us think. Pick you battles my friend.

 

Battles? Hardly. A clueless n00b who doesn't know how to enter waypoints that aren't cache coordinates into the Geocaching smartphone apps? As I've said for the 3rd time now, a nice, friendly email is the way to go. Deletion without explanation is NEVER the way to go. And that applies to any log deletion controversy, not just this one.

 

It is a common enough phrase, I meant choose carefully what you get worked up about.But I agree being friendly and kind is always the best action to take.

[+delanos]

I'm just curious... Geocaching is based on the honour system, whether it be trading swag, or counting finds, or moving along coins and travel bugs. What do we do if we see someone who is misusing this honour system? I ask because one of my hides is a multi cache. A paid member marked it as found, and only found stage one... supposedly. There is no signature in the stage 3 log to prove it. I checked his/her profile, and of the 8 multis listed as found, 6 were stage one only, with various excuses why the multi was not completed. I would like the ability to erase that member's "find" until the task is fully completed. As the C.O., is there any way to do this? Should it even matter to me? Does this in any way lessen the value of a multi that required two hours and a long hike to contend with? Are we cheapening the hobby? Or, should I just "FIDO" (forget it, drive on)? I am interested in other cachers' opinions on this.

I'll have to check but I remember when some CO's use to have a quiz and you had to email something to them to prove the find otherwise the log gets deleted. I found nothing prohibiting it but it would be interesting to see if others still do that? Unless you have a lot of spare time or only a few caches hidden that would be tough to keep up with.

[jholly]

I'm just curious... Geocaching is based on the honour system, whether it be trading swag, or counting finds, or moving along coins and travel bugs. What do we do if we see someone who is misusing this honour system? I ask because one of my hides is a multi cache. A paid member marked it as found, and only found stage one... supposedly. There is no signature in the stage 3 log to prove it. I checked his/her profile, and of the 8 multis listed as found, 6 were stage one only, with various excuses why the multi was not completed. I would like the ability to erase that member's "find" until the task is fully completed. As the C.O., is there any way to do this? Should it even matter to me? Does this in any way lessen the value of a multi that required two hours and a long hike to contend with? Are we cheapening the hobby? Or, should I just "FIDO" (forget it, drive on)? I am interested in other cachers' opinions on this.

I'll have to check but I remember when some CO's use to have a quiz and you had to email something to them to prove the find otherwise the log gets deleted. I found nothing prohibiting it but it would be interesting to see if others still do that? Unless you have a lot of spare time or only a few caches hidden that would be tough to keep up with.

That is an ALR - Additional Logging Requirement. They have not been allowed for two years or more. This covered in the guidelines. If a CO were to delete your log because you did not preform the ALR writing to contact@geocaching.com will get your log reinstated and the CO will be informed that is not allowed.

 

Edit: ALR link

Edited November 26, 2011 by jholly