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BUG: Can't change the cache coordinates !


Captain Morgan
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It seems that cache owner can't change the cache coordinates anymore after they have submitted the new cache description.

 

It causes problems, like in GCGXB1 cache.

 

Cache's problem is that the latitude should be N 61° 31.808 instead of N 63° 31.808.

 

The owner massed with coordinates already earlier, and archived the first version of the very same cache.

 

I'm also worried how can i maintain now my "The Finnish Wandering Micro Cache", which is a moving cache, and the coordinates change frequently.

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It's not a bug; you can't change the coordinates of an existing cache more than a little without having to contact an admin to get it re-approved. Same reasoning as being unable to change cache type; they don't want people submitting a regular cache in one place, and then deciding to change it to a virtual a mile away without anyone having veto power.

 

This does probably mean that grandfathered traveling caches are going to be a pain to maintain.

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc-Dean:

"Feature" right...... icon_smile.gif

 

Free your mind and the rest will follow http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/30296_400.gif


 

Yeah, just like every other sudden unannounced change as of late that breaks caches is a "feature".

 

I have a traveller, and so far it hasn't moved far enough to be affected by this new "feature".But it has moved several states at a time before.

 

The last time I needed to change a cache it took 2 weeks to get a response from an admin through official channels, though I did get a response in 3 days through the forums.

 

In either case, that's far too long a delay for a cache on the move. Normally I have the coordinates updated within minutes.

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QUESTION TO APPROVERS: Has abuse risen to such a level that it necessitated this action? From it's inception, geocaching's existence and tremendous success has been possible ONLY BECAUSE OF the honesty, good will, and ethical behavior of the majority of its participants. Are the checks and balances already in place insufficient to identify and correct the occasional abuse? Are geocachers now ASSUMED to be untrustworthy?

 

I too have a cache that tends to move at least a little (but sometimes a lot) with each new find. Hot Rox is a virtual cache in a national park that follows the location of active lava flows. I have always been quick to update the cache coords when new ones are posted by finders. Since you've taken the ability to update the coordinates out of my hands, are you also going to take the responsibility of ensuring the coords stay up to date?

 

Perception is very important, and I'm concerned this and some other recent actions are creating a perception of alienation between admins/approvers and "the rest of us".

 

worldtraveler

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quote:
Originally posted by Strangeday420:

Yeah bug, it happened to me with one of mine. I ended up just archiving it and listing a new one....


 

So your cache is already at least the second one that the owner has archived because of this new "feature". I would like to see how many caches have been archived because the owner can't change the coordinates. Tens, hundreds ? And what's the situation after a year?

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quote:
Originally posted by Captain_Morgan&Family:

I would like to see how many caches have been archived because the owner can't change the coordinates. Tens, hundreds ? And what's the situation after a year?

 

[...]

 

Oh well, now it seems that some poor rookie geocacher went to search his second cache and searched it from totally wrong coordinates, thanks to this new "feature".


Nah, it's surely in the *millions*, perhaps even *billions*!

 

Um, is it just me, or would this be a good opportunity to remind people that, should there be a problem with their cache, they can temporarily disable it? Seems easy enough to me: there's a problem with the cache that prevents it from being viable, at least for the moment, so I disable it. Now, admittedly, I did win a National Merit Scholarship back in my day, so I might not quite be average, but surely it can't be *that* difficult to figure out, eh? icon_rolleyes.gif

 

(Oops, did I say icon_rolleyes.gif? I'm sorry, I must have meant icon_biggrin.gif.)

 

[[[ ClayJar Networks ]]]

Home of Watcher downloads, Official Geocaching Chat, and the Geocache Rating System

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I disable my caches as well if i have problems with them. But we must not forget that in most countries of this planet people speak some other language than english. I mean that it may be difficult for people with bad english skills to figure out what's the difference between archiving and disabling, especially if those people are new to geocaching.

 

Still, let's not forget to subject of this thread... I would like to see some suggestions from admins, how to solve the coordinate problem.

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It sounds like the problem isn't that they now prevent people from moving caches, since that is adequately covered by the ability to disable a cache. Rather, as you validly bring up, some users do not understand about temporarily disabling caches. This could be regular old 'mericans just not bothering to read, in which case there's only a little that can be done (perhaps giving an "Are you sure you want to archive and not just _temporarily_disable_ this cache?" would be valid).

 

As for the non-natively (or even not at all) English speaking people... that's a bit tougher. I don't know if the rewrite has made Geocaching.com translated UIs more possible, but that seems as if it's a question worth asking. Without native translations, I'm afraid that it's up to the user to figure out what things mean, which is indeed an additional burden compared to their English-speaking counterparts, but language problems are orthogonal to the discussion at hand.

 

As for the subject at hand, i.e. the inability to arbitrarily change coordinates without approver interaction, I don't see a problem with that. You had to get the cache approved when you created it, and if you move it that far, you're making a new cache. It might be in the same container with the same contents, but just because you're recycling doesn't make it the same as the original. (If coordinates didn't matter, then what was all that piracy thing?)

 

Perhaps a more acceptable solution for you would be to allow you to move the cache arbitrarily, but if you move it too far, it drops back to the approval queue? That would make it completely unviewable in the meantime, and if it never got reapproved, what would happen then (could you even view the 'archived' cache if it was never reapproved)? I would much rather see the hider temporarily disable it, but perhaps you are of another opinion?

 

*Would* you think that, perhaps, de-approving it would be a more valid way to handle it? Then the coordinates could be changed at will, but it would preserve the reapproval process. Just an idea. I can't say it would add extra work to the approvers, either, since they have to change the coordinates as it's set up right now.

 

[[[ ClayJar Networks ]]]

Home of Watcher downloads, Official Geocaching Chat, and the Geocache Rating System

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I e-mailed Jeremy when I heard this was going into effect. Older moving caches (like my Photographer's Caches, and old pre-travel bug hitchhikers) were grandfathered. Those caches CAN still move coordinates even a significant amount. I know because I still do almost daily.

 

Can anyone let us know what the cutoff is between being able to move a cache and not being able to move a cache?

 

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

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quote:
QUESTION TO APPROVERS: Has abuse risen to such a level that it necessitated this action? From it's inception, geocaching's existence and tremendous success has been possible ONLY BECAUSE OF the honesty, good will, and ethical behavior of the majority of its participants.

 

My guess is yes, or otherwise they wouldn't have implemented it. I know of one cache that was approved somewhere in the midwest. A few months later it turned up in NJ. And no, it wasn't a moving cache.

 

Other people were abusing the ability to change the coordinates to circumvent the approval process. They'd place the cache, have it approved, then move it wherever they darn well pleased. And some people were going as far as recycling the cache page instead of archiving caches. They'd remove the old cache, place a new one somewhere else, delete the old logs, edit the text and coordinates and bingo, a new cache and no need to go through the approval process.

 

So because of the dishonesty, ill will and unethical behavior of a few, the rest of us have to suffer the consenquences.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

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quote:
QUESTION TO APPROVERS: Has abuse risen to such a level that it necessitated this action?...

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

My guess is yes...I know of one cache...Other people were abusing the ability to change the coordinates to circumvent the approval process...


Thanks, BrianSnat, for referencing these abuses. I think two things are significant here.

The abuses came to light and were (I presume) corrected thanks to self-policing by the geocaching body and checks already in place.You, a "normal" geocacher, were the first and, so far, only person to respond to my question. I'm still waiting for an approver to answer.

 

I know approvers are very busy volunteers; perhaps too busy to spend much time reading the forums. If so, is it wise increase the queue at the bottleneck by heaping upon that small group another responsibility that was previously and at least somewhat successfully born by the entire body?

 

Oh, and one other thing:

quote:
Originally posted by Markwell

I e-mailed Jeremy when I heard this was going into effect...


Seems like this would have been a good topic for discussion or at least for posting in the virtually unused "Geocaching Announcements" forum prior to implementation. There is apparently a grapevine that enabled some to receive advance notification and provide feedback. Now I'm wondering: Was my cache one that was grandfathered, or will I have to trouble an approver every time the coords need to be changed?

 

worldtraveler

 

[This message was edited by worldtraveler on October 14, 2003 at 07:02 AM.]

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Captain_Morgan, the rules were edited in March of this year to stop moving geocaches due to the problems of caches being placed near RR tracks, in parks that prohibit caches, too close to other caches, etc. As noted in BrainSnat's post some disregarded this and other rules and just changed the coords (and/or cache type) to circumvent the rules.

 

Because of this Jeremy made it so only minor coordinate corrections could be made by the cache owner, more major ones had to be done by an admin.

 

In recognition of the fact that the site has always "grandfathered" caches approved prior to changes in the guidelines, the earlier caches were exempt. Basically, if your cache was approved prior to March 2003 (approx cache #60K) you can change your coordinates as in the past. That should be the case with your cache, as it was posted in January.

 

Hope that helps. icon_wink.gif

 

Regards,

erik - geocaching.com admin

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It looks like ~erik~ covered it. One significant example I remember is several times cachers would have caches denied in National Parks and then they said they would move them. The coordinates would be modified to a location outside of the park a few days later and it would be approved. A couple of days later the coords would be back in the park again. It happened several times.

 

I also told Markwell about this some time ago. He and I started some of the original travelers. His Scooby and Shaggy and my Mars ROVER traveling caches were started before travel bugs were invented. I also know about his photography caches. I just wanted him to know so he would not submit anymore photo caches and I wanted him to know Scooby and Shaggy were OK. The cutoff time was when moving caches were banned, so since caches cannot move new caches are not affected anyway. The person who approved your cache will be more than happy to assist if your coordinates are incorrect and need to be modified.

 

quote:
Originally posted by worldtraveler:

I know approvers are very busy volunteers; perhaps too busy to spend much time reading the forums.


Sorry to have missed this one. I have been finishing my taxes and planning for a vacation day today... to go caching. It was a great day of caching today for sure.

 

mtn-man... admin brick mason

"approver of all trades" -- per Woodsters Outdoors

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quote:
Originally posted by The Cuthberts:

Ah ! But is there a limit on the number of moves that a cache can make or could I just keep nudging the cache in 160m increments. icon_wink.gif Is a check also made for proximity to other caches automatically when a cache-owner tweaks the coords ??

 

Andy


I had to nudge one of mine a while back. It moved 800ft and I did it three hops I think.

 

------------------------------------------------

Knights of the Green Shield stamp and shout.....

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