The Mobipocket fiasco wrapup

February 8, 2003

Its amazing, back when the Mobipocket dreck was foisted on folks it seemed the only good work arounds were scrapers and sites like Brians excelent site, which of course stoped working thanks to the folks at geocaching.com..gee thanks.

Now there are GPX Files and a slew of converters to make them into html, loc, palm and other useful formats. Also there are a slew of folks hosting web pages up with the results of thier personal tweekingo f the raw data.

SO after all the closed source, proprietry , blah blah contortions the data is out in the wild again....So remind me, why did the powers that be take the unuser friendly road inthe first place?

Annd more importantly, what are you fave solutions, web pages and gizmos that are busting out the gc data into the wilds?

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

24.7k · February 8, 2003

I find MobiPocke works well for what it was used for. GPXview not withstanding.

Wherever you go there you are.

9.4k · February 8, 2003

Who crawled up your GPS and died?

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

5.3k · February 8, 2003

Pocket queries were a Great Step Forward; and MobiPocket made their use possible. I was glad to chuck it when the GPX applets became available, but for all its drawbacks MobiPocket was still better than printing out reams of paper and carrying them around.

Max

Often wrong but seldom in doubt

5.3k · February 8, 2003

quote:
here are a slew of folks hosting web pages up with the results of thier personal tweekingo f the raw data.

While I'm not a fan of Mobi, I am relatively sure that what you describe is a violation of the terms of service, isn't it?

9.4k · February 8, 2003

Yes, I didn't address that part. Although GPX is provided there is still the terms of use. I'm not sure about what you're referencing when you say "the data is out in the wild."

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

February 8, 2003

I didn't know there was a MobiPocket fiasco, but I'm finding it pretty useful.

I haven't tried the GPX stuff but I've heard there are some nifty apps for using the data it provides. (Within the terms of service, I believe. I hope.)

I just like the idea of using less paper and having a lot of cache info literally in my pocket.

I guess I'm not sure what the original question was. Were you asking if Groundpeak was going to have some kind of open-source code for geocache data? While I'm sure that you would use it thoughtfully, there might be others who would take advantage of it. I doubt that Groundspeak wants to run that risk.

I guess I'm saying that I think I am getting my money's worth from the features.

February 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by TeamWSMF:
So remind me, why did the powers that be take the unuser friendly road inthe first place?

Ummm... BANDWIDTH?

Don't know about the reason to go with Mobipocket, but bandwidth was a major concern because of the datascapers.

Just be happy it's getting fixed.

February 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Seth!:
I didn't know there was a MobiPocket fiasco, but I'm finding it pretty useful.

You should try the new GPX apps. I've yet to hear someone say, "Nah, I like Mobipocket better."

February 9, 2003

I became a charter member to use the mobipocket/palm solution to give me info on lots of caches while traveling in the UK.

Last year before joining I printed out details of about forty caches that I thought might be on our route but ran out of ones to search for after about 4 weeks.

I have created a number of searches in overlapping 50 mile radius circles and downloaded them with differnt name to mobi pocket and down loaded the way points to my GPS so that in theory I can see where the nearest caches are and find them in mobi pocket. The only problem is that it won't search across "books" so to overcome this I have extracted the GC name and cahe name for all the caches in a particular book using XL and saved these as memo files with the same name as the books. A search of memos with the GC number from the gps now brings up the name of the book in mobi pocket.

I have used this now on a number (well two or three) of occasions and found it to work well and mobi pocket to be usefull, anything but a fiasco.

1.4k · February 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by SE7EN:

You _should_ try the new GPX apps. I've yet to hear someone say, "Nah, I like Mobipocket better."

Ok then I'm your guy.

I tried a whole bunch of ways to make the GPX data work for me. I didn't like any of them.

Now I get LOC files and after 2 (two) mins of work I am ready to upload into my GPSr and they are compatible with my mapping software.

While I'm uploading, I hotsync my palm and I'm good to go. It seems that with the GPX files I had at least 10-20 mins of manipulation/wait time till I could go.

Maybe there was an easier way but I sure as heck couldn't figure it out

And I don't see the problem with Mobipocket. I use it to read Ebooks and for caching.

1.6k · February 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Harrald:
While I'm uploading, I hotsync my palm and I'm good to go. It seems that with the GPX files I had at least 10-20 mins of manipulation/wait time till I could go.

Maybe there was an easier way but I sure as heck couldn't figure it out

And I don't see the problem with Mobipocket. I use it to read Ebooks and for caching.

The problem I had with Mobi is it's slow and the search function is tedious just to find a nearby cache. The newer versions of the GPX programs are getting better and better. Once, Spinner gets automated, you'll just have to unzip an email attachment and sync your Palm. I've found Plucker to be much faster than Mobi and with either Spinner or Fizzy's program you get links to the nearest caches. I really like the nearest feature. That alone is worth dropping Mobi for me.

I do have a problem uploading waypoints to my GPS. I have to open in EasyGPS 1.2.1, save as LOC and then upload with 1.1.9. That's a PIA.

CR

February 9, 2003

Having tried just about all the solutions, I have to go with the majority here. Mobipocket is a big, slow, inefficient pig. gpx2html with plucker is a much more elegant solution, and doesn't require the use of a commercial (albeit free) software product.

--

Scott Johnson (ScottJ)

February 9, 2003

I haven't tried either. To avoid the paper issue, I just save each cache on my watch list to a directory. Each time someone finds it, I re-save the page, therefore, the directory is always current. I then copy the directory to the PDA.

Sure, I may have duplicated images, but the card in the PDA is large enough that it is not an issue.

Yes, I cannot search for the specifics that others can, but I keep a close watch on where I am planning on hunting. I can also save cache pages from other sites so I have all currently available caches available whereever I am.

Fro.

________________________________________

Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

February 9, 2003

I don't have a problem with using the GPX stuff. I find it pretty easy to work with and can write the code to get it into formats that I can use to dump to my GPX and my mapping program. My main problem is the limits on the amount of data. I am trying to figure out how to get the pocket queries to work to make sure I can keep my list of old caches up to date and to also make sure I add the new ones to my lists.

But the limits that exist make it difficult to be sure that I am getting all of that information. It only returns 500 at a time which for a larger state or during a busy week will not in any way get everything. To top that off I can only create 5 queries at a time. I can run each of those everyday if I want but that is not really helping to get the data. In my mind the limit should be to create 35 queries and allow only 5 to run per day. It would be the same amount. I am playing with the idea of getting another membership or two just to run the queries.

The issue about bandwidth I think goes away if we are able to run real queries. Yes data mining sucks up needless bandwidth. But I think most people that are doing that (and I think the number is rather small in respect to all users here) would rather not if they had another option. The needs and desires of the community have seem to grown beyond the creators of this site to be able to keep up with it. That is both good and bad.

The code to work with GPX files is pretty easy and one can then produce output how they need it. The problem is getting the data to work with. It is unfortunate that once we put our data in here we kind of loose control of it. I have talked to TPTB about this and there really seems to be no wiggle room. Maybe a CO-OP of people should get together and trade around their unused queries. But in my mind I think the load would be a lot less if one larger query was run say once a week rather than 5 smaller queries 7 times a week.

February 9, 2003

I think Mobipocket is the best thing since canned beer. Whatever it's limitations are it still beats a folder full of printouts.

2.6k · February 9, 2003

I was the same way I didn't try Mobi for a year. I didn't like the idea of loading a second reader to my PDA.

quote:
Originally posted by Frolickin:
I haven't tried either. To avoid the paper issue, I just save each cache on my watch list to a directory. Each time someone finds it, I re-save the page, therefore, the directory is always current. I then copy the directory to the PDA.

I used to load each cache page manually. It was easy to organize each page in regional folders.

Well my new iPaq didn't come with a reader so I downloaded the MobiPocket. Now I organize the queries by region. I'll see how I like it. I don't have the desire to search and save all the cache pages anymore.

It's funny how some of us don't want to try new things. I guess I'll just take the baby steps approach. Eventually I'll try some of the other apps.

Do not extend your expectations unto others, and you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

February 9, 2003

I've had no problems with MobiPocket. I download 100 caches a week, delete the previous week's file, synch, and off I go with 100 new caches sitting on my Palm. Now, I have a Garmin GPS V and I just have it find the nearest cache and map out directions, so I have no need for some of the features others in the thread say they need something better than MobiPocket for.

I do have to wonder about the person who says they need more than 500 caches at a time. Do you go through all those in a weekend and feel that 500 is just not enough?

Also, when I use MobiPocket on my Palm it isn't running slow for me at all. I usually find the nearest cache on my GPS, pull that cache label up in MobiPocket and instantly I have the description, 5 logs, and access to a hint if I should need it. Best thing is I don't need to fiddle with the file at all. I just double click on the attachment when I get it in the mail and it automatically puts it in the Snyching que.

February 9, 2003

Leatherman and any other Pocket PC users who have not yet tried GPXview should really check into it. I used Mobipocket for about a month before the first issue of GPXview came out. It was OK, but I would never go back now. Give it a try, you won't be sorry.

Aladin Sane

February 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Oregon Cajuns:

I do have to wonder about the person who says they need more than 500 caches at a time. Do you go through all those in a weekend and feel that 500 is just not enough?

500 at one time being enough is not the point. Sometimes I just don't know what I want. For example if I am driving from my home to another state I may pass through several states (I am on the East Coast so it is not unusual) on the trip. That becomes a real chore to start doing over laping queries trying to follow the route I expect to take and then I still might miss something. Or if I travel to another state I might not have a real idea where I am going to be or end up. It is such an ordeal I just don't do it and end up not caching in places that I may not get the chance to explore again.

For myself I would like to have the list that I just drop into MapPoint that I run on my laptop with my GPS connected and then I see what is where as I am driving along. At this point I have a pretty complete list of caches. I then have a copy of the webpage on CD that I can call up and get the details on the cache. I am trying to keep it up to date. Like dropping caches that get archived and adding the new ones.

Maybe that makes no sense to you and is not how you would do things and that is OK. But that gets to the point. We all do things differently and approach this from a different way. And it is all OK if it works for the individual. I would just like to have the option to not have to do it how one or a few people see it. I just don't think it is that big of a deal to let people have they choices they want. Then all of these questions about viewers, etc. goes away. We all get to do it the way that makes sense to us and works how we do. With more options we could make our own solutions or pick from a wider range of choices from people that make them The bottom line problem is getting the data to work with.

1.5k · February 9, 2003

I assume that the 500 result limit is to prevent huge queries from running on a regular basis when the person using them might not need the data, or might just start ignoring it, etc.

How about allowing one-time-execution >500 pocket queries? The user could then get the data they want, but in order to get the data again, they'd have to re-submit (or maybe just re-activate?) the query request. This should be sufficient for people who are travelling across a few states, and should help prevent huge queries from running needlessly.

February 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Snazz:
I assume that the 500 result limit is to prevent huge queries from running on a regular basis when the person using them might not need the data, or might just start ignoring it, etc.

How about allowing one-time-execution >500 pocket queries? The user could then get the data they want, but in order to get the data again, they'd have to re-submit (or maybe just re-activate?) the query request. This should be sufficient for people who are travelling across a few states, and should help prevent huge queries from running needlessly.

My guess is that the limit of 500 was set up because of what a GPSr would hold.

But your idea would work for me. I don't want to have queries running all the time but its the only way to even begin to keep my data up to date. It will be interesting to see if this flies. We will see.

February 9, 2003

I see where you're coming from, and managing extensive cache collections is one of the things that Watcher is intended to help people do.

(Note: Until Jeremy gets around to replying regarding what Groundspeak GPX node to use for per-waypoint exported timestamp, it's still missing one *very* important ability -- smart merging -- but I'm sure he'll reply soon.)

What I do is run full-state queries on many states. If the state has a very large number of caches, I'll usually split it by type -- it's trivial to put the pieces back together in Watcher. I run the queries about once a week, depending on if I know where I'll be going (then I run an extra for that area). Editing my five PQs to get different cache sets each run is a bit of work, but I got used to it. (For what I can do with it, it's no big deal at all.)

Right now, I have to use a separate utility to convert to HTML or PalmDoc or whatever (GPSBabel supports everything but PLGR, I think ), but that's being worked on. The ability to filter a cache list by N/S/E/W bounds is coming soon, and I just figured out how I can add special filters for those who want to filter out a country or state or hider or whatever (those were hard to figure out, since they're, in effect, free-form text fields).

Anyway, if there's some way that I can update Watcher to make your life easier, please, by all means, let me know. I'm adding features at a fairly high rate, I'm told, so if it's a good idea, it'll be in there in not long at all. I want to do everything I can to make geocachers' lives easier and more full-featured. (You can reach me in the official geocaching chat almost every evening, and you can e-mail me at GPS@C___J__.com (ClayJar, that is). Or, of course, you can just reply here.

-ClayJar

Watcher Developer

February 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by GrizzlyJohn:

quote:
Originally posted by The Oregon Cajuns:

I do have to wonder about the person who says they need more than 500 caches at a time. Do you go through all those in a weekend and feel that 500 is just not enough?

Maybe that makes no sense to you and is not how you would do things and that is OK. But that gets to the point. We all do things differently and approach this from a different way. And it is all OK if it works for the individual. I would just like to have the option to not have to do it how one or a few people see it. I just don't think it is that big of a deal to let people have they choices they want. Then all of these questions about viewers, etc. goes away. We all get to do it the way that makes sense to us and works how we do. With more options we could make our own solutions or pick from a wider range of choices from people that make them The bottom line problem is getting the data to work with.

Wow...Actually, you make perfect sense, but your rant was a little uncalled for. I never questioned people's freedoms to have choices, but merely stated why I don't have a problem with Mobipocket and asked a question why someone needs more than 500 caches when I find me getting 100 is probably going overboard. Looks like I got my answer. I do understand that the states are smaller over there and I guess other programs out there make it easier to plan out a trip. I would have other ideas about trip planning, but I won't divulge lest others think I am taking their freedoms away...

February 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Oregon Cajuns:
Wow...Actually, you make perfect sense, but your rant was a little uncalled for. I never questioned people's freedoms to have choices, but merely stated why I don't have a problem with Mobipocket and asked a question why someone needs more than 500 caches when I find me getting 100 is probably going overboard. Looks like I got my answer. I do understand that the states are smaller over there and I guess other programs out there make it easier to plan out a trip. I would have other ideas about trip planning, but I won't divulge lest others think I am taking their freedoms away...

Wow I did not see that as anywhere near a rant. I was just trying to explain it as much as possible so you could understand where I was coming from. I get that many people would find it unreasonable to do it how I do and really that is OK. I never said you questioned peoples freedom to have choices. My point was your way makes sense to you and my way makes sense to me and we should be able to have that choice. You asked a question I tried to answer as best as I could. If the current things out there work for you that is great. But you asked why anyone would have a need to get a listing of 500 caches in a rather sarcastic way. I just want the choices. The data does after all originate with all of us we should have the ability to get at it how we like.

Unfortunately any time anyone dares to question the wisdom of TPTB they are seen as people out to cause trouble who don't know what they are talking about.

February 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by GrizzlyJohn:

quote:
Originally posted by The Oregon Cajuns:
Wow...Actually, you make perfect sense, but your rant was a little uncalled for. I never questioned people's freedoms to have choices, but merely stated why I don't have a problem with Mobipocket and asked a question why someone needs more than 500 caches when I find me getting 100 is probably going overboard. Looks like I got my answer. I do understand that the states are smaller over there and I guess other programs out there make it easier to plan out a trip. I would have other ideas about trip planning, but I won't divulge lest others think I am taking their freedoms away...

Wow I did not see that as anywhere near a rant. I was just trying to explain it as much as possible so you could understand where I was coming from. I get that many people would find it unreasonable to do it how I do and really that is OK. I never said you questioned peoples freedom to have choices. My point was your way makes sense to you and my way makes sense to me and we should be able to have that choice. You asked a question I tried to answer as best as I could. If the current things out there work for you that is great. But you asked why anyone would have a need to get a listing of 500 caches in a rather sarcastic way. I just want the choices. The data does after all originate with all of us we should have the ability to get at it how we like.

Unfortunately any time anyone dares to question the wisdom of TPTB they are seen as people out to cause trouble who don't know what they are talking about.

LOL....no problems....TROUBLEMAKER!!

Just kidding. Anyway, I am really glad that you told me why you use something other than Mobipocket. It is sometimes hard to see things from out of our own perspectives. I hope I don't ever find myself with the need to use another program other than Mobipocket because I like it just fine and it works nice and quick for me. I am glad there are alternatives out there for those who have needs beyond that program.

1.4k · February 9, 2003

nah, I like Mobipocket better.

And it's true. I load Mobipocket once and whala... I just copy ebooks over. Whoever thinks that getting a GPX, firing up some other app, loading in your GPX, converting from GPX to whatever, and THEN loading to your PDA is easier is quite frankly - not familiar with the term 'simplicity'.

I get my ebook, load it to PDA and I'm done and ready to go. I don't have to load up web pages or third part apps, etc.

I find other apps that allow me to do data mining invaluable though. Watcher being one of them. Being able to filter on caches with travel bugs, when they were last found, etc. all from my GPX pocket query is awesome.

But from a general "just want the cache info in my pocket" standpoint - Mobipocket still can't be beat IMHO. It's definitely the easiest route.

quote:
Originally posted by SE7EN:

quote:
Originally posted by Seth!:
I didn't know there was a MobiPocket fiasco, but I'm finding it pretty useful.

You _should_ try the new GPX apps. I've yet to hear someone say, "Nah, I like Mobipocket better."

--------

trippy1976 - Team KKF2A

Saving geocaches - one golf ball at a time.

February 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by trippy1976:
Whoever thinks that getting a GPX, firing up some other app, loading in your GPX, converting from GPX to whatever, and THEN loading to your PDA is easier is quite frankly - not familiar with the term 'simplicity'.

If you have a pocketpc, all you do is copy the gpx file to your ppc and run GPXview...Utter simplicity.

February 10, 2003

I could not agree more. What could be more simple than GPX view?

Hey, I didn't get a harumph out of that guy.

Aladin Sane

1.7k · February 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Volwrath:
If you have a pocketpc, all you do is copy the gpx file to your ppc and run GPXview...Utter simplicity.

And if you don't have a pocketpc, it's only a matter of time before MobiPocket for PalmOS pukes all over your shoes.

24.7k · February 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:

quote:
Originally posted by Volwrath:
If you have a pocketpc, all you do is copy the gpx file to your ppc and run GPXview...Utter simplicity.

And if you don't have a pocketpc, it's only a matter of time before MobiPocket for PalmOS pukes all over your shoes.

http://216.202.195.127/warm.gif

Hell I've got a Pocket PC and when the Microsoft OS doesn't puke on my shoes, Mobi Does. Though actually using it for reading a book helped with a lot of Mobi's "Issues".

I've got GPS View for my Utah Raids and use Mobi for Idaho. Just to see how they both work.

Wherever you go there you are.

1.6k · February 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by trippy1976:
But from a general "just want the cache info in my pocket" standpoint - Mobipocket still can't be beat IMHO. It's definitely the easiest route.

Trippy, I have to respecfully disagree. My experience with either program is there is work you have to do. With Mobi, getting ready to go is pretty simple, but searching for a cache is a pain, though a minor pain, a pain nonetheless. It adds up. You don't have links to the nearest caches and you can't go directly to the hint. For my machine, a waypoint search takes a little while, because it's searching the entire text until it finds the first instance.

With the GPX solution the pain is in the beginning, at home. But when you are in the field getting to the next nearest cache is painless--a simple tap on the list. A search for a waypoint is very quick because it's only searching through the waypoints. To me, navigating the caches is much easier with a Plucked file than the Mobipocket file.

I'd rather be less inconvenienced in the field and do more of the work at home. This leaves more caching time to be caching when it's available.

But that's just my preferences.

CR

9.4k · February 10, 2003

I think what befuddles me is that there are two options right now - GPX or Mobipocket. It's like the old Mac vs Microsoft debate which is essentially pointless. To each his/her own, but the bottom line is you have a choice between the two. So where's the negative?

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

5.3k · February 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:
So where's the negative?

I couldn't agree more. I found Mobipocket frustrating, but a whole lot better than paper. When GPX became available, I wrote gpx2html to meet my needs. It's great if other people use it, and I'm willing to work on making it as useful to others as possible, but there's no way I think it is perfect for everyone.

Jeremy deserves a lot of credit for making GPX available; it's a very open and flexible way to share data.

That's why having choices is so wonderful: everybody has their own set of needs, and they can choose whatever solution suits them best. The people developing GPX applications all seem to have this attitude, too -- most everyone is willing to share code and ideas with each other.

Now if we could just make individual cache downloads GPX, too...

1.7k · February 10, 2003

Y'know, I've *****ed as loudly as anyone about MobiPocket, and even I wouldn't call it a "fiasco." Even when MobiPocket was all we had, there was at least one workaround that became available very, very soon after Pocket Queries themselves became available. And I think I agree with Jeremy and Fizzy: the Mobi users and the rest of us can coexist peacefully.

February 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:
I think what befuddles me is that there are two options right now - GPX or Mobipocket. It's like the old Mac vs Microsoft debate which is essentially pointless. To each his/her own, but the bottom line is you have a choice between the two. So where's the negative?

It befuddles you folks would rather make there own options rather then have to wait like a humbly silent adept for the priest hood to poot out the True And Accepted versions of the Word?

Come on, please dont tell my you dont realize in this day and age folks would not want it open there own devices. Look around you, in the days of XML, open source, distributed projects and an ever increasing number of display types (cell phones, pdas, tablets, etc) to show thier data on its not just IF the data will be made available, its WHEN.

And with GPX WHEN is NOW.

Now, one preson in my area grabs the GPX file and put its up on thier web server. Everyone that wants can grab it from them. Thats them, not you or your bandwidth so the whole arguement of "Open data will KILL geocaching.com because the traffic will be massive" is a false one.

Image that, folks sharing data, offering it up in the raw gpx or sometimes formating them up in HTML

or other formats.

Folks who are into the activity of Geocaching rather than the cult of geoaching.com

Cult? Ok maybe thats harsh, I take that back. But what do you call something or someone that seeks to gather up all parts of an activity and then tell folks they are not allowed to tap into that activity UNLESS its in an APPROVED manner by the Powers That Be.

Graph the bottleneck, see the clog, realize on the net this sort of damage is routed around, methods arise to move the flow from the narrowing of the bottleneck to more accessable manners.

Ive been watching Geocaching.com for a few years, been a memeber for over a year, paid for the last years of membership even before the offical PayPal signup was put up. Thats right, look it up, I paid for a membership a few short days after I donated the same amount BECAUSE I belived the place rockethed mosth amazingly.

But now there is open talk of TOS legal action, there has been various roadblocks to folks seeking to help out the Geocaching community (some of which are amazingly not on geocaching.com) and it is beging to look a lot like the RIAA than a grassroots geocaching community site.

Was blocking the works of Brian's Palm site somethign you are proud of? Here was a guy offering up timely data to folks in Palm ready formats MONTHS before you guys and did it freely, openly and without. Repeat WITHOUT, hammering your servers.

Sure you were working on a Palm solution, but why was it nessecary to openly thwart the efforts of someone who was filling a niche? Was it nessecary to play the "we are the keepers of the one true word of geocaching" card on the effort?

And what was the results of your monthsw long work on the PDA solution? Mobi Pocket. With Mobi pocket you get another eula as well documented practices of causing problems for using other apps to read docs , thats right Mobi hijaks the creator typesod some other docs files.

Nice choice, man that was so much better than Brians solution which worked with several PDA doc readers.

GPX was the best thing you could have done to the data. Rather than having to start over folks are building up thier own databases, many of them to SHARE FREELY without need or care for Terms of Services, Thou Shalt Nots and other such legal constraints.

GPX has opened this place wide and the Choices of how to see teh data is not Your Way Or The Highway, its in as many ways as folks are want to do it up in.

Heres the in a format thats usable, there are the tools to make them into html, stuff em into mySQL, wrap em in php, spew em in spread sheets.

Add. Mix..... Serve up to any and all.

OF course the next often heard cry comes to the fore "But with all these sites having data about geocaching, whos is going to make sure its all current, that it is all valid, that its PURE"

Two words, peer review. The very things that makes a cache valid here, peer review, will work on other sites. If someone is housing data thats old, how many folks will use it when there are other sites who have more current data. If someone puts up bogus data the word will get out and folks wont trust the site.

Did someone say Whuffie? Well since it was mentioned, yea, whuffie. Sites that allow peer reivew methods will do better. Others will run on trust.

Then of course the cry will go out "Hey you are being mean, you are the enemey of geocaching.com, you are looking to do away with it."

Far from it me droggies, far from it. Folks need to have the OPTIONS to be able to meet the needs of the community rather than only the gc.com few. How long did it take mere users to come up with PALM solutions? A heck of a lot shorter than it too the few harried folks runnig the web site. Its a full time job to run a web site of this magnitude, all props to them that do it and my money has gone to back those words, but WHY WHY WHY have them shoulder EVERY need of the community? There are folks ready willing and able to do these things, who have DESPITE the actions of the powers that be.

Even when there are other sites carrying PDA formated data for local ares, even when there are splinter communities using some of the data they find usefull, even when folks are off doing thier own thing to create new and unthought of ways to use what the community has FREELY offered up ...even with all this stuff going on that is not controled directly by the powers taht be of geocaching.com folks will still come here to get thier sites listed, to talk to each other, to sahre in the forums, to discuss cool places they have been....because this is a Community of folks who are varied, dynamic and, left to make thier own choices, have proven to be amazing solvers for the myarid of problems that come along.

So there, thats what crawled up my GPS. Thats the particlar nits im picking here. Thats the bee in my bonnet.

And given the activity with GPX data and its spreading its seems to have crawled up others GPS's as well.

Hope this helps to clear things up.

-tomwsmf

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

1.4k · February 10, 2003

Well, TeamWMSF, it seems as if you have said all that could be said on the subject Nice post. Happy caching!

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

February 10, 2003

TeamWMSF, couple of things I wanted to say. It is interesting you talk about how Jeremy wants to keep everyone else from tinkering with Geocaching and then state later that GPX is the key to openness, all the while apparently forgetting the fact that Jeremy makes that available to us through Pcoket Queries (He is giving you the ability to tinker as well). Then, he stated that everyone has their own choices about what they want to use (to each his/her own) and there is no point debating about it and you again act like he is some kind of control freak.

Now here is the really cool thing. Everyone who doesn't like this site and what is being done with it have the ability to go start their own site to rival Jeremy's. The Internet gives you that freedom and if you live in the U.S. (as well as other places, but I live here, so that is the country I knwo best) you are also afforded that freedom. I am willing to bet many will follow along and still others will use both sites. I would have the utmost respect for you if you did such a thing as it would show some kind of backing to your words.

In the meantime, I applaud everyone's efforts to come up with useful tools for their fellow Geocachers and I especially applaud Jeremy for putting together a great site that serves as a hub for lovers of this activity. I thank him for adding new content over the past year or so and I look forward to more innovations. I know he listens to the community and the recent post asking about locationless caches is an example of this. Jeremy, I just wanted to let you know I appreciate your site, I know TeamMWSF does as well, and I look forward to seeing the work TeamMWSF will contribute to geocaching in the future.

February 10, 2003

quote:
I just wanted to let you know I appreciate your site, I know TeamMWSF does as well, and I look forward to seeing the work TeamMWSF will contribute to geocaching in the future.

I would love to do up a site that lists the local Portland Oregon caches, make that data available in a non proprietry PDA format, even add a Portland area BBS to give it some local flavor and some other cool netdoodads to spice it up.

Heck Id love to crack out Zope or a wiki and open things up....do a peer review of the caches, have folks eb able to post Test caches, caches they want to test out localy before broadbanding them up to the whole geocaching community .

SOme folks might use it, no one might use it, it might wind up being just a page TeamWSMF uses..who knows until its done.

Thing is of late I have been hearing many phrases that lead me to believe the powers that be here would find some way to say the TOS here makes it illegal for me to offer that up on my site.

Isnt that great, a TOS that chills out folks wanting to do something.

If I could be assured by Jermey and the powers that be that the act of taking my weekly GPX file of local Portland OR caches, spinning out the data into an HTML page and allowing users access to it on my page in a number of differnt formats, along with what ever other goodies I can do, then heck Id be open for use in under a week-

So ther ya go, Im puttig some walk to the talk. TeamWSMF stands at the ready if the assurances could be given. If not, well who the heck wants to get into a legal pissing match over control of the kool aid? Im sure there are some who will, and they will get my support.

-tomwsmf

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

February 10, 2003

I definitely understand your concerns. I am not familiar with any attempts by Jeremy to take legal action on those representing Geocaching stuff on other sites. I do know that Buxley has had this site up for a long while which interfaces with Jeremy's. Not sure if he had to get permission or whatnot, but I do know it exists.

Another site I am aware of which is not affiliated with this site is Navicache. I found out about this when I lived in western New York, though I never use it. Another page I visited when I lived in western New York was Wyoming County Geocache. I had found a cache or two of the gentleman who runs the site and he has some linsk to other caches he really likes in western New York. Now hopefully I haven't brought down some kind of wrath onto this man for having this site, but I do know it has been around for a while and still exists, so maybe Jeremy doesn't have too much issue with this stuff.

I would say if you wanted to have a Portland geocaching reference to post either just go ahead and do it or, if you will be linking to the Geocaching.com web site, ask Jeremy for permission to do so. I am not sure if you legally have to or not, but getting permission is the more courteous thing to do. I do hope you put something together since I live a little south of you and would enjoy viewing it.

February 10, 2003

Interesting...I just made a post commending you on your thoughts toward putting together a Portland geocaching site or PDA file, giving links to other examples of people doing so, and some other general, non-aggressive talk. For some reason, my post was flagged and is awaiting approval, so we will see if it ever shows up. I really said nothing negative in the post, so I am not sure why it was flagged. Maybe my references to other web sites was the problem. Oooooh...wouldn't that be interesting?

9.4k · February 10, 2003

TeamWSMF,

Based on skimming through your recent posts I've come to the conclusion that you are a naive idealist.

It's good to have idealists around. It's often a different perspective that can be very insightful. In practice many of the concepts are flawed, but there are always gems of wisdom.

Unfortunately idealists and realists (though some would call me a pessimist) clash harder than most folks. This is the case here.

I've been pretty verbose in past discussions about my reasoning behind not opening the geocaching database to the masses to do whatever they want. I think we've done a good job of offering up the data in the ways that folks like ClayJar can create applications to innovate, and I expect more to be developed (Spinner and GPXView, for two). Our "competition" (navicache.com for those not in the know) don't offer their database as a download, nor do they even provide a GPX alternative on their site. Perhaps you can encourage them to enter your universal utopia of sharing.

If anything, I'm a bit annoyed that no one is innovating on their own. Everyone complains that it isn't fair that they can't have full access to the geocaching database. Well 3 years ago when the site got started there was plenty of opportunity to create this utopia. I happened to step in and started this site with the ideals that I believe in.

For example, GPX was started because I encouraged Dan at TopoGrafix to create an XML format so the data would be open for sharing between software applications. LOC was born as an early concept. At that time Dan was skeptical about the use of XML for sharing GPS data, so the format was very simple to prove the concept. The success of EasyGPS and Geocaching.com spawned the creation of an improved XML format for sharing this data, which has created other applications around that format including GPSBabel. GPX is the format that exists today, and we're firmly behind that format.

(I'm not claiming the creation of GPX but developing the precursor to it. Dan did an excellent job with his GPX format and taught me quite a few things about XML in the process)

Is moving to XML the act of someone that is closed system conscious?

Take benchmarking - a concept we came up with, and I'm still surprised after all the discussions about NGS benchmarks nobody took that project on their own. In fact, I haven't even heard a peep from anyone about that section. The database was already free, so anyone could have moved to create a site dedicated to it. I'm sure if the folks who were so enamored with Geocaching would have put some thought into it, they could have created it too.

Here's my challenge to you - Based on the success of Geocaching, come up with your own site with a new concept around GPS usage. Innovate and show us what you have. Blow us out of the water with your new idea and show us how your ideals work. But quit asking for handouts from Geocaching just because you feel entitled.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

1.1k · February 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Oregon Cajuns:
Maybe my references to other web sites was the problem. Oooooh...wouldn't that be interesting?

It's common knowledge that we put messages in the moderation queue for posts to navicache.com - We were plagued with Jeremy haters (which is seriously true but tragic) who would spam the forums repeatedly and disrupting the site. They do go through if they are within the context of the discussion, however.

There's also the alt.rec.geocaching newsgroup which is also a good Jeremy hater place to visit, if you want to join the club. It's a wonderful feeling to be the target of so much vitriol.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

1.1k · February 11, 2003

I forgot about these folks. Geocaching Worldwide is an excellent place to go if you want to start your open utopia of geocache sharing. They've been offering the same $125 US prize for over a year now so they need some support.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

February 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):

quote:
Originally posted by The Oregon Cajuns:
Maybe my references to other web sites was the problem. Oooooh...wouldn't that be interesting?

It's common knowledge that we put messages in the moderation queue for posts to navicache.com - We were plagued with Jeremy haters (which is seriously true but tragic) who would spam the forums repeatedly and disrupting the site. They do go through if they are within the context of the discussion, however.

There's also the alt.rec.geocaching newsgroup which is also a good Jeremy hater place to visit, if you want to join the club. It's a wonderful feeling to be the target of so much vitriol.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

LOL...apparently not common enough.

I have visited this site for a while now and never knew that, though I didn't always read the forum and took a geocaching break for a bit, so I can see how I might have missed it.

Anyway, in case you missed my remarks above, I definitely don't hate you, and in fact feel the opposite way (remember, the opposite of hate is not love, so don't go getting any ideas....), so you won't see me on the newsgroups any time soon.

I see you approved my post, which I am glad of.

Incidently, Jeremy, what IS your opinion on people who want a little web site with just their local caches on it such as the one that TeamWMSF proposed? Is this breaking the TOS? I would imagine there are some more of these around with links to your web page.

1.4k · February 11, 2003

I'd like to see some kind of organizational license put in place under which groups can pay some kind of licensing fee to provide the information to their members - but as of right now that is not in place.

That said, I just can't believe what you are saying. The hours upon hours that went into developing GPX pocket queries. And then to see people think it's 'okay' to just freely share that information is something I can't understand.

The information is one thing. The work that took place to /format/ it into this GPX format is what is the issue here. They didn't have to do that. The fact they did is a 'service' as far as I'm concerned and one that is worth paying for and protecting.

People running around claiming that all this should be free obviously don't understand the investment in time and other resources (monetary, emotional, whatever) that has been made to make this format available to us. You are free to do what you like with YOUR pocket queries, but sharing the information provided to you via pocket query with the world is IMHO a horrible insult to the persons that worked to provide us the format under the current membership structure.

GPX and pocket queries are invaluable to me and are WORTH paying for. The same people who think posting the information for the world to share without paying is okay are the same people who think it's okay to share their serial numbers for shareware applications. Those authors make part of their living and support the development of their applications with the money made on registrations. You're not doing anything but hurting the authors by ganking a serial number off the internet. Using information provided by pocket queries for free is no different from my POV. Neither is okay.

--------

trippy1976 - Team KKF2A

Saving geocaches - one golf ball at a time.

February 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:
TeamWSMF,

Based on skimming through your recent posts I've come to the conclusion that you are a naive idealist.

Wow, thanks for skimming- So its the classic "Your just an idealist" stance on your end? Cool, that at least shows wjere you value ideals.

quote:
...Here's my challenge to you - Based on the success of Geocaching, come up with your own site with a new concept around GPS usage. Innovate and show us what you have. Blow us out of the water with your new idea and show us how your ideals work. But quit asking for handouts from Geocaching just because you feel entitled.

Handouts? I see so, the data that I and folks like me put into the system are now "hand outs" Nice attitude. So your "biz" model here is to set up a site, have folks voluntere data and content, then tell them its begging to get that data back out to use as they want.

OF course, then you charge them for that-

Its definetly sounding a lot more like the RIAA with every post-

Also, let me see if I got this straight, the use of a GPS for a geocaching type concept was YOUR sole idea to begin with and is yours alone to do a site on?

quote:
..come up with your own site with a new concept around GPS usage.

I see clearer now. Geocaching.com IS geocaching to you.

Nice.

I knew this thread would clear things up for me. I hope others reading are also seeing things as they are as well.

-tomwsmf

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

February 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
There's also the alt.rec.geocaching newsgroup which is also a good Jeremy hater place to visit, if you want to join the club. It's a wonderful feeling to be the target of so much vitriol.

If folks did'nt care about the place they wouldnt say aything. This is called userfeedback and what it should be telling you is that even folks who start out willing to load cash on you (in donations and in membership) will call you when you do something they dont like.

How you deal with it is the key here, and if you have images in your mind of ME vs. THEM, then maybe this is just unhealthy for you to be doing.

Pick up a Tom Peters book and delve intothewonderfullworld of having a customer base and how to work with them.

-tomwsmf

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

1.7k · February 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by TeamWSMF:
Handouts? I see so, the data that I and folks like me put into the system are now "hand outs" Nice attitude. So your "biz" model here is to set up a site, have folks voluntere data and content, then tell them its begging to get that data back out to use as they want.

Jeremy can't keep you from posting those caches on your own site. All you have to do is get the text of each cache and permission to post it on your own site from the creators of each cache, since each creator owns the copyright on the descriptions of his or her own caches. Even if Jeremy wanted to, he couldn't give you permission to republish that data, because he doesn't own the copyright on it.

You can of course do whatever you like with your own cache descriptions, but that's not what you're asking, is it? You're asking for the rights to everyone else's hard work, rights I granted to geocaching.com because I like what it does, but which I didn't grant to you and I definitely didn't grant to, for example, some random website whose goal is the total eradication of geocaches in Northeast Indiana and who maintains a database of such caches for the easy access of would-be plunderers.

1.7k · February 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
There's also the alt.rec.geocaching newsgroup which is also a good Jeremy hater place to visit, if you want to join the club. It's a wonderful feeling to be the target of so much vitriol.

You know, I haven't seen much "I Hate Jeremy" sentiment in the alt.rec.geocaching newsgroup recently (yes, I subscribe to it.) It's really not that bad. Yeah, there are a couple people there who have a burr up their butt about geocaching.com, but most of us are perfectly normal.

The Mobipocket fiasco wrapup

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