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CACHES IN STONE WALLS


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So - your hunting for a cache and its in a stone wall - drystane or ancient mortared, free standing or retaining wall.

 

You know it is not right, you know the cache should not be there, you can see the damage being done by hunting ........

 

1. Do you immediately report to reviewers. (this could be several days/week later if you are on holiday)

2. Do you quietly hide the cache as close as possible to the co-ords and spare everyone's blushes.

3. Do you say where you have moved it to on the log thus giving the hide away but at the same time preventing more damage?

4. Do you slap a NM log on the cache and hope the owner reacts.

5. Sometimes it is an ancient mortared stone wall, a nano poked in a hole and the loose mortar replaced in front, but poking out ancient mortar still causes damage.

6. Do you quietly email the owner advising them of their error and hope they sort it out.

7. Do you put the cache back where you found it - thus yourself being in the wrong and risking more damage until the cache is sorted out.

 

Now I seem to be finding more and more caches in stone walls and I am not referring to one particular cache.

 

Is this just hiders not reading the guidelines?

 

I never know what to do when I find a cache hidden this way, it could be a genuine mistake/cache drift/ignorance of guidelines?

 

What also seems strange to me is that dozens of 'experienced' finders have been there before me???

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So - your hunting for a cache and its in a stone wall - drystane or ancient mortared, free standing or retaining wall.

 

You know it is not right, you know the cache should not be there, you can see the damage being done by hunting ........

 

1. Do you immediately report to reviewers. (this could be several days/week later if you are on holiday)

2. Do you quietly hide the cache as close as possible to the co-ords and spare everyone's blushes.

3. Do you say where you have moved it to on the log thus giving the hide away but at the same time preventing more damage?

4. Do you slap a NM log on the cache and hope the owner reacts.

5. Sometimes it is an ancient mortared stone wall, a nano poked in a hole and the loose mortar replaced in front, but poking out ancient mortar still causes damage.

6. Do you quietly email the owner advising them of their error and hope they sort it out.

7. Do you put the cache back where you found it - thus yourself being in the wrong and risking more damage until the cache is sorted out.

 

Now I seem to be finding more and more caches in stone walls and I am not referring to one particular cache.

 

Is this just hiders not reading the guidelines?

 

I never know what to do when I find a cache hidden this way, it could be a genuine mistake/cache drift/ignorance of guidelines?

 

What also seems strange to me is that dozens of 'experienced' finders have been there before me???

 

It's only happened to me a couple of times - but after getting rebuked by the CO for mentioning it the first time, the second time I rehid it somewhere off the wall but nearby, made a note of the new co-ords (which hadn't changed enough to matter) in my log - and posted a NA on it to get some reviewer attention.

 

Ironically both times the caches were in reasonably heavy, rocky, woodland with dozens of hiding spots around.......

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We never log caches in walls as a 'find', we post a note instead and always have. We try to be as diplomatic as possible but also try to ensure the point is made. I have to confess, we have never followed it up by flagging to the reviewer because in most instances, the CO has moved the cache to a more suitable place. We replaced a missing cache recently and the old position was in a hole in a wall. When we replaced it, it wasn't! We posted a note on the page and encrypted the spoiler info in our log. We also emailed the CO but no reply as yet, they haven't logged on for ages and I think they have stopped caching. The cache was in a very historical place and worthy of a placement, which is why we replaced it.......but not in the wall.

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I generally make some comment in the log but leave it at that.

I actually found a cache recently in County Durham where the farmer had build a hole in the wall to specifically hide the cache. This was mentioned in the hint.

 

It's been commented on recently that the guidelines are just that - guidelines and not rules that have to be strictly followed like those laid down by GS. Is this wall guideline an exception that should be treated as a rule?

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In this case, I would probably hide the cache in the nearest innocent place, closest to GZ as possible. I would send the CO a polite email explaining that you can see damage is being done and that it would be in the walls best intrest to re locate the cache, hopefully you will receive a nice email back agreeing with your point, voila, sorted.

 

Should you not recieve a nice polite email back... maybe contact a reviewer, take a picture of the wall, or say that if the cache still continues to damage old property, that you will consult relevent bodies and possible get all caches band from being places on historic old places.

 

Maybe that's being a bit extreme but i don't think having an extra smiley face on the map is worth damaging and ruining old walls which have stood for years and hopefully years to come.

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I have just spent a while typing up several paragraphs about a very unpleasant experience I had over such a matter. With some thought, I decided not to click the reply button and changed it to just this.

 

My opinion taken from experience is that if you think a cache does not meet the guidelines and may cause an issue, quietly inform a reviewer. It's not worth the serious abuse you will take. <_<

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Luckily I don't find too many here (seem to be lots on the continent, but the rules don't seem to be so stringent there) and so option 6 usually suffices. If nothing's been done after quite a time and I happen to notice, I'd probably put a note to the reviewer. Don't remember having put a NM log down ever, but might have done. Think it would be justifiable in the circumstances, but usually only after other measures have been explored.

 

:ph34r:

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Last year we found a cache hidden in a dry stone wall, and wrote this 'Found it' log....

 

We used the hint and found the micro after only a couple of minutes.....An excellent hide.

 

Then we went along to the main cache and were surprised to find it in a dry stone wall.

We have left the cache in about the same place as it was but it is now not in the wall.

 

Thanks for this cache.

 

We also wrote this 'Needs Maintenance'....

 

Today we found the cache within the dry stone wall.

 

Please note this extract from 'Geocaching Resources for the UK and Ireland' about caches in dry stone walls. "Dry Stone Walls by definition have no mortar holding them together, their construction alone being the strength they need. Removing stones from these walls can seriously weaken their structure so caches are not allowed on such walls or in them. If the reviewers believe a cache is in such a location it will be challenged. If a cache is published and later found to be in such a location it will most likely be archived and the owner asked to remove it."

 

We removed the cache from the wall and left it close by.

 

We then wrote to the Reviewer that published the cache, informing them about the hide.

They then Disabled the cache the next day. The cache is now back on line and the hide is not in the wall.

 

The trouble with this sort of situation is that yes, you can get backlash, but on the other hand, the longer term future should also be considered.

If 'experienced' cachers turn a blind eye to caches in walls, then all the newcomers will think that it's OK to hide a cache in a wall and then the circle goes on and gets worse.

 

The only 'backlash' we have had was the deletion of a couple of 'Needs Archived' logs that we posted. They probably mutter about us behind our backs, but so what?. The 'Needs Archived' logs alerted the right people and sort of forced the cache owners into action....But that's another story.

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Knowing the cost of repairing stone walls and lime mortor walls I would put a N/A log on and email the owner. "Guidelines" are there for a reason.

 

Moving a small lose stone can cost the wall owner a lot of money to replace. :mad:

 

Also I would question if the owner of the wall knows the cache is there?

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I normally will replace it closeby and in my found log say something along the lines of the cache seems to have got into the wall so I rehid it where it ought to have been. Once or twice I have received an email from the cache owner, normally along the lines of I never put it in the wall and I will relocate it soon. I have never followed them up if they did.

 

I agree with the experinced cachers comments, slightly OT found a whole series recently in glass jars, not a comment from anyone. Also seen them published when the clue says........ normally a note to the reviewer on these ones gets them disabled.

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We had the opposite.. one of our caches in the lake district, hidden in the roots of a tree went missing. It turned out that a finder had re-hidden it in the dry stone wall behind the tree... You just can't win... Back where it belongs now with a big note on the cache page re the wall.

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I've found a few lately, but being fairly new I didn't want to spout off and sound like an ignorant newbie.

 

One in an ancient wall on Dartmoor, where the agreement specifically disallows such things. But it was an established cache and I couldn't see any damage having been done. The clue took you straight to it so there was minimal poking required.

 

Also found quite a few 35mm film pot caches in Forestry Commission land where the local agreement prohibits any container < 100ml (Not quite sure how many ml in a pot, I'm guessing about 30?).

 

It's difficult. I understand they may annoy the landowner and risk everyone being kicked out, but on the other hand a lot of effort has been put in and by pointing it out I might upset the cache owner enough to remove them and spoil it for those after me. In these cases I don't think the agreements have changed recently (certainly not the Dartmoor one which predates geocaching entirely!), but how to tell if a cache now breaks GC guidelines when maybe it was placed before then? Leave it to the reviewers?

Edited by dartymoor
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It's worth mentioning that if you're caching abroad, the rules are different and caches in walls are not necessarily frowned upon. :huh:

That's true, although as I mentioned above there is no guideline against using walls in the UK either. There's only a rule for dry stone walls.

And I'm not sure what the limitations of the rule are; sometimes a dry stone wall has become a pile of rocks. It would be best to check with the farmer if you think that this is the case, and then add a line to the description similar to the "Cattle Grid Reference" example.

 

slightly OT found a whole series recently in glass jars, not a comment from anyone.

 

I found a cache in a glass jar a few years ago, and thought it was a bit silly - but there's nothing in either the GS or GAGB guidelines to say you shouldn't use a glass container....

I've found many caches in glass jars in various countries. There seems to be a lot in California. Normally they're heavily wrapped in gaffer tape, so you could drop them and they wouldn't break. One of my caches uses the same technique and it's been in perfect order for about five years.

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It's worth mentioning that if you're caching abroad, the rules are different and caches in walls are not necessarily frowned upon. :huh:

That's true, although as I mentioned above there is no guideline against using walls in the UK either. There's only a rule for dry stone walls.

And I'm not sure what the limitations of the rule are; sometimes a dry stone wall has become a pile of rocks. It would be best to check with the farmer if you think that this is the case, and then add a line to the description similar to the "Cattle Grid Reference" example.

 

slightly OT found a whole series recently in glass jars, not a comment from anyone.

 

I found a cache in a glass jar a few years ago, and thought it was a bit silly - but there's nothing in either the GS or GAGB guidelines to say you shouldn't use a glass container....

I've found many caches in glass jars in various countries. There seems to be a lot in California. Normally they're heavily wrapped in gaffer tape, so you could drop them and they wouldn't break. One of my caches uses the same technique and it's been in perfect order for about five years.

 

This cache is in a glass jar but i didn't even think about it being glass when i placed it:

GC28EZM

Because you’re worth it – Drive by

 

Not many finders realise the meaning of the name of the cache, (because I removed the lable) but those that do recognise the Jar think it's pretty cool!

 

m_wrinkledecrease.jpg

 

But now thinking about it .... IT IS GLASS! :unsure:

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I've seen a few forum post by Deceangi saying glass cache containers are not allowed and if he finds one has been used he will disable the cache until it has been replaced. I've found two caches in glass containers one was a jam jar placed under a rock you had to lift to to access it was disabled by the reviewer and the container was replaced by the cache owner. The other was a Marmite jar in Sheffield it had been there for two years and they are pretty rugged jars so kept it to myself.

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This cache is in a glass jar but i didn't even think about it being glass when i placed it:

GC28EZM

Because you’re worth it – Drive by

 

Not many finders realise the meaning of the name of the cache, (because I removed the lable) but those that do recognise the Jar think it's pretty cool!

 

m_wrinkledecrease.jpg

 

But now thinking about it .... IT IS GLASS! :unsure:

 

You could always swap the container for one by BodyShop - they are plastic and similar to turtle containers.

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This cache is in a glass jar but i didn't even think about it being glass when i placed it:

GC28EZM

Because you’re worth it – Drive by

 

Not many finders realise the meaning of the name of the cache, (because I removed the lable) but those that do recognise the Jar think it's pretty cool!

 

m_wrinkledecrease.jpg

 

But now thinking about it .... IT IS GLASS! :unsure:

 

You could always swap the container for one by BodyShop - they are plastic and similar to turtle containers.

 

A good idea and I have just the thing too ..... will pop it in tomorrow!

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I've seen a few forum post by Deceangi saying glass cache containers are not allowed and if he finds one has been used he will disable the cache until it has been replaced. I've found two caches in glass containers one was a jam jar placed under a rock you had to lift to to access it was disabled by the reviewer and the container was replaced by the cache owner. The other was a Marmite jar in Sheffield it had been there for two years and they are pretty rugged jars so kept it to myself.

 

Geocaching has been around for over 10 years now, and it's probably a fair assumption that glass containers have been used on occasion for that long as well. Depending on the location and method of hiding, a glass geocache container should be no more or less dangerous than a glass container in your kitchen or local shop. This is reflected in that there is no mention - either for or against - the use of glass containers in the Groundspeak guidelines, the knowledge books, the GAGB guidelines, or the code of conduct.

 

If there had been a problem with glass containers (other than lapses of common sense) I'd have expected to see a mention in at least one of these..... :blink:

Edited by keehotee
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I've seen a few forum post by Deceangi saying glass cache containers are not allowed and if he finds one has been used he will disable the cache until it has been replaced. I've found two caches in glass containers one was a jam jar placed under a rock you had to lift to to access it was disabled by the reviewer and the container was replaced by the cache owner. The other was a Marmite jar in Sheffield it had been there for two years and they are pretty rugged jars so kept it to myself.

 

Geocaching has been around for over 10 years now, and it's probably a fair assumption that glass containers have been used on occasion for that long as well. Depending on the location and method of hiding, a glass geocache container should be no more or less dangerous than a glass container in your kitchen or local shop. This is reflected in that there is no mention - either for or against - the use of glass containers in the Groundspeak guidelines, the knowledge books, the GAGB guidelines, or the code of conduct.

 

If there had been a problem with glass containers (other than lapses of common sense) I'd have expected to see a mention in at least one of these..... :blink:

I think a cache container is in a very different environment to your kitchen or local shop. Three easy steps for a cut hand 1) water gets in cache 2) water freezes as cache is outside 3) glass breaks due to expansion of ice. A cacher then comes along and uses hand to feel for the cache and you have an accident. Plastic containers would stretch a bit and could crack but I'd doubt you'd get cut on one.

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Geocaching has been around for over 10 years now, and it's probably a fair assumption that glass containers have been used on occasion for that long as well. Depending on the location and method of hiding, a glass geocache container should be no more or less dangerous than a glass container in your kitchen or local shop. This is reflected in that there is no mention - either for or against - the use of glass containers in the Groundspeak guidelines, the knowledge books, the GAGB guidelines, or the code of conduct.

 

If there had been a problem with glass containers (other than lapses of common sense) I'd have expected to see a mention in at least one of these..... :blink:

As you say, it's the circumstances that count, but in practice the great majority of glass containers I've seen have NOT been appropriate. Two that were particularly inappropriate spring to mind were 1) one at altitude nearly 10,000 ft in the Alps, hidden in a rocky crevice with heavy snow cover. The glass was broken! 2) a large plain, clear glass jar barely "hidden" in the grass at the edge of a field. Apart from other considerations, a fire hazard.

 

Though they are glass, I don't really consider the little cosmetic pots a problem because the glass is so thick for the size that they are much less likely to get damaged, and they are not clear glass. However, I don't like them because they are even smaller inside than a film pot!

 

Rgds, Andy

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I've seen a few forum post by Deceangi saying glass cache containers are not allowed and if he finds one has been used he will disable the cache until it has been replaced. I've found two caches in glass containers one was a jam jar placed under a rock you had to lift to to access it was disabled by the reviewer and the container was replaced by the cache owner. The other was a Marmite jar in Sheffield it had been there for two years and they are pretty rugged jars so kept it to myself.

 

Geocaching has been around for over 10 years now, and it's probably a fair assumption that glass containers have been used on occasion for that long as well. Depending on the location and method of hiding, a glass geocache container should be no more or less dangerous than a glass container in your kitchen or local shop. This is reflected in that there is no mention - either for or against - the use of glass containers in the Groundspeak guidelines, the knowledge books, the GAGB guidelines, or the code of conduct.

 

If there had been a problem with glass containers (other than lapses of common sense) I'd have expected to see a mention in at least one of these..... :blink:

I think a cache container is in a very different environment to your kitchen or local shop. Three easy steps for a cut hand 1) water gets in cache 2) water freezes as cache is outside 3) glass breaks due to expansion of ice. A cacher then comes along and uses hand to feel for the cache and you have an accident. Plastic containers would stretch a bit and could crack but I'd doubt you'd get cut on one.

 

You make a fair point although at the same time feeling for a cache in an area you can't see inside is asking for trouble from items unrelated to the cache. Who knows if someone unrelated to caching has left broken glass or used needles there, or if an animal has taken up residence or similar?

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I've seen a few forum post by Deceangi saying glass cache containers are not allowed and if he finds one has been used he will disable the cache until it has been replaced. I've found two caches in glass containers one was a jam jar placed under a rock you had to lift to to access it was disabled by the reviewer and the container was replaced by the cache owner. The other was a Marmite jar in Sheffield it had been there for two years and they are pretty rugged jars so kept it to myself.

 

Geocaching has been around for over 10 years now, and it's probably a fair assumption that glass containers have been used on occasion for that long as well. Depending on the location and method of hiding, a glass geocache container should be no more or less dangerous than a glass container in your kitchen or local shop. This is reflected in that there is no mention - either for or against - the use of glass containers in the Groundspeak guidelines, the knowledge books, the GAGB guidelines, or the code of conduct.

 

If there had been a problem with glass containers (other than lapses of common sense) I'd have expected to see a mention in at least one of these..... :blink:

I think a cache container is in a very different environment to your kitchen or local shop. Three easy steps for a cut hand 1) water gets in cache 2) water freezes as cache is outside 3) glass breaks due to expansion of ice. A cacher then comes along and uses hand to feel for the cache and you have an accident. Plastic containers would stretch a bit and could crack but I'd doubt you'd get cut on one.

 

You make a fair point although at the same time feeling for a cache in an area you can't see inside is asking for trouble from items unrelated to the cache. Who knows if someone unrelated to caching has left broken glass or used needles there, or if an animal has taken up residence or similar?

We all face risks when we go out caching I doubt there is anyone reading these post that's not been nettled, brambled or thorned and accept that as part of the game we play. Putting a glass container out just needlessly increases the risk when plastic boxes are so cheap.

I've looked for a couple of caches where I found needles around and that's the point I walk away. As for general rubbish I'm afraid you have to get used to that these days. However if I'm out and there is a bin nearby I'll pick most plastic bottles up and dump them, but if I see a glass bottle anywhere I always pick it up and take it with me, I have a dog and know what glass can do to paws.

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This cache is in a glass jar but i didn't even think about it being glass when i placed it:

GC28EZM

Because you’re worth it – Drive by

 

Not many finders realise the meaning of the name of the cache, (because I removed the lable) but those that do recognise the Jar think it's pretty cool!

 

m_wrinkledecrease.jpg

 

But now thinking about it .... IT IS GLASS! :unsure:

 

I know this glass container discussion is off-topic to the original post.. but this reminded me of something. I once found several caches with names like "carrots", "banana", and "sweet potato". They were in glass jars. I had found quite a few before the significance of the names hit me... they were of course baby food jars.

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This cache is in a glass jar but i didn't even think about it being glass when i placed it:

GC28EZM

Because you’re worth it – Drive by

 

Not many finders realise the meaning of the name of the cache, (because I removed the lable) but those that do recognise the Jar think it's pretty cool!

 

m_wrinkledecrease.jpg

 

But now thinking about it .... IT IS GLASS! :unsure:

 

I know this glass container discussion is off-topic to the original post.. but this reminded me of something. I once found several caches with names like "carrots", "banana", and "sweet potato". They were in glass jars. I had found quite a few before the significance of the names hit me... they were of course baby food jars.

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

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I've seen a few forum post by Deceangi saying glass cache containers are not allowed and if he finds one has been used he will disable the cache until it has been replaced. I've found two caches in glass containers one was a jam jar placed under a rock you had to lift to to access it was disabled by the reviewer and the container was replaced by the cache owner. The other was a Marmite jar in Sheffield it had been there for two years and they are pretty rugged jars so kept it to myself.

 

Geocaching has been around for over 10 years now, and it's probably a fair assumption that glass containers have been used on occasion for that long as well. Depending on the location and method of hiding, a glass geocache container should be no more or less dangerous than a glass container in your kitchen or local shop. This is reflected in that there is no mention - either for or against - the use of glass containers in the Groundspeak guidelines, the knowledge books, the GAGB guidelines, or the code of conduct.

 

If there had been a problem with glass containers (other than lapses of common sense) I'd have expected to see a mention in at least one of these..... :blink:

I think a cache container is in a very different environment to your kitchen or local shop. Three easy steps for a cut hand 1) water gets in cache 2) water freezes as cache is outside 3) glass breaks due to expansion of ice. A cacher then comes along and uses hand to feel for the cache and you have an accident. Plastic containers would stretch a bit and could crack but I'd doubt you'd get cut on one.

 

You make a fair point although at the same time feeling for a cache in an area you can't see inside is asking for trouble from items unrelated to the cache. Who knows if someone unrelated to caching has left broken glass or used needles there, or if an animal has taken up residence or similar?

 

Thinking about the risks of fingers touching other things inside a hole which might house a cache occured to me with the final location of GCHMV6 The Tynemouth Trail, http://coord.info/GCHMV6, but as always, I used a pokey thing to listen / feel for distinctive sound / touch of a plastic box.

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