Two people claim the FTF

October 24, 2011

Hello, I'mm looking for advise, who can help me?

We went on a FTF hunt a few days ago and we found the cache. We took a look at the log and on the first page the special FTF spot was still free. We didn't take a look at the rest of the roll because we thougt we were first. When we logged our find when we came home there was someone else claiming the FTF. Later we found out that he wrote on the second page. We didn't see that at all and we were with 8 people. (we didn't look for it eather) Now they are claiming that they were first. How do you proof that. They didn't put a time on their log, but we did. This is turning out really ugly with someone cursing at us on the public page of this cache. What do we do? Help!!!!!!

October 24, 2011

Cursing at you?? Wow, there really is a lot of FTF hounds with a lot of angst against you guys. Firstly, if someone abuses you in any way then dont react to it by posting or the like, report it first so someone with a lot of power can sort the problem out. What should you do? Well, personally I would drop the matter and let them have their stinkin' FTF, as to me it doesn't seem like you are the person to get up in arms on the matter of who found it first, so be the better man and let it go.

'Huetes out

2.8k · October 24, 2011

FTF is a side game. There are no rules and there are no rewards. In the end only you and the CO know that yo are the FTF. Sure its fun to get that FTF but its nothing to fight over. If someone wants to claim FTF then let them. But ultimately its the CO who can "award" the FTF. Realy they make the final call. That is if they even want to bother posting the FTF on the cache page.

IMO the first to sign the log is the FTF. But if a spot is left for the FTF to sign then the first to sign that spot is the FTF. But there really is no point in making a big deal out of this.

October 24, 2011

[report it first so someone with a lot of power can sort the problem out.]

We did report it to Groundspeak and they or he himself deleted his log. Wrote another log without the insults. The funny thing is that the guy who claimed to have a STF on the second page (they were caching together) is the one who has been insulting us and trying to intimidate us not the FTF'er. But if we give our FTF to the other one who claimed the FTF on the second page he automatically gets the STF and thats the thing we don't want. In our opinion a todler throwing a a fit shouldn't be rewarded. Or are we pushing it now. If he doesn't claim a STF, we will forfit our FTF and claim a STF. Does Groundspeak make decissions about these things?

7.3k · October 24, 2011

In the end only you and the CO know that yo are the FTF.

The CO doesn't have any way to know who found a cache first. Unless the cache owner is hiding somewhere nearby observing, or secretly filming the cache location...

Sure its fun to get that FTF but its nothing to fight over. If someone wants to claim FTF then let them.

Yes!

But ultimately its the CO who can "award" the FTF. Realy they make the final call.

No, first to find is a fact, it's not an award. The cache owner can't call facts, unless they actually have some means to know them. Typically the cache owner has no more knowledge of the timing of events then the original poster here. Were they first? I don't know, and apparently neither do they. Me, I'd drop it.

22.2k · October 24, 2011

Groundspeak does not make decisions about "who is FTF?"

Groundspeak does make decisions on violations of the website Terms of Use.

Local Volunteer Cache Reviewers have very limited jurisdiction over logging disputes, so writing to Groundspeak was a good idea.

2.8k · October 24, 2011

[report it first so someone with a lot of power can sort the problem out.]

We did report it to Groundspeak and they or he himself deleted his log. Wrote another log without the insults. The funny thing is that the guy who claimed to have a STF on the second page (they were caching together) is the one who has been insulting us and trying to intimidate us not the FTF'er. But if we give our FTF to the other one who claimed the FTF on the second page he automatically gets the STF and thats the thing we don't want. In our opinion a todler throwing a a fit shouldn't be rewarded. Or are we pushing it now. If he doesn't claim a STF, we will forfit our FTF and claim a STF. Does Groundspeak make decissions about these things?

No GS has nothing to do with the FTF game. Like i said its a side game and has no real rules. GS doesn't care who finds what and when. Anyone can come along at any time and put in there log that they are the FTF. It only becomes a problem if the CO doesn't like the log. At which point they have the right to delete the log themselves. Just let it go and move on. Keep your log as it is. If the person keeps emailing you about it let GS know so they can be dealt with for harassment.

October 24, 2011

No GS has nothing to do with the FTF game. Like i said its a side game and has no real rules. GS doesn't care who finds what and when. Anyone can come along at any time and put in there log that they are the FTF. It only becomes a problem if the CO doesn't like the log. At which point they have the right to delete the log themselves. Just let it go and move on. Keep your log as it is. If the person keeps emailing you about it let GS know so they can be dealt with for harassment.

The problem then for us is that the CO and these 2 teams are friends and they are caching together all the time. So if the CO has to make a decission.... You'll understand what will happen. And we aren't FTF hunters at all, we only have 1 FTF before this one. So it is not about getting the gold at all. At least not for us.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Team de Graaf

October 24, 2011

Local Volunteer Cache Reviewers have very limited jurisdiction over logging disputes, so writing to Groundspeak was a good idea.

Thanks.

October 24, 2011

And we aren't FTF hunters at all, we only have 1 FTF before this one. So it is not about getting the gold at all. At least not for us.

Now you know, why a lot of us aren't in the FTF-game. Lots and lots of bad behavior in that game.

But - anyway - if you want the FTF to count in GSAK, you can just make your mark about that and you can make a statistic showing that you found the cache first. Some people in Denmark do it this way - even they know they aren't FF.

October 24, 2011

You've made the claim on the log. Count it as a FTF on your own records, and drop it. It no longer matters, it doesn't matter what the CO thinks, and responding in any way to abuse makes it worse. You were FTF, you know it, and nothing else makes the slightest bit of difference. Move on.

1.1k · October 24, 2011

Hello, I'mm looking for advise, who can help me?

We went on a FTF hunt a few days ago and we found the cache. We took a look at the log and on the first page the special FTF spot was still free. We didn't take a look at the rest of the roll because we thougt we were first. When we logged our find when we came home there was someone else claiming the FTF. Later we found out that he wrote on the second page. We didn't see that at all and we were with 8 people. (we didn't look for it eather) Now they are claiming that they were first. How do you proof that. They didn't put a time on their log, but we did. This is turning out really ugly with someone cursing at us on the public page of this cache. What do we do? Help!!!!!!

I would have ripped the second page out, lol! Seriously, if you're really concerned about it then contact the CO and let him sort it out. As mentioned, FTF's are something we geocachers created and not GS. Therefore, there's no official ruling and no official FTF "etiquette". Hopefully, your experience is a rare one. FTF's are popular in my area but I've not seen a situation such as yours. I'd forget about it, it's unimportant.

5.2k · October 24, 2011

You've made the claim on the log. Count it as a FTF on your own records, and drop it. It no longer matters, it doesn't matter what the CO thinks, and responding in any way to abuse makes it worse. You were FTF, you know it, and nothing else makes the slightest bit of difference. Move on.

Best advise in this thread.

11.8k · October 24, 2011

We didn't take a look at the rest of the roll because we thougt we were first.

Before you sign, you need to a look at the rest of the roll. Trade a few swag items (retrieve the FTF prize if there is one), leave a TB. Take a picture of the signed log page and cache contents, and post it. Place the log back in a way that it's obvious where the next person should sign.

If someone else signed it before you did, they were there first. In a game with stats, accurate documentation is everything. Regardless if people insist it doesn't matter, there will be a first person. I sometimes simply log it (no claims, no celebration), and let the CO sort it out, so they decide if they want to add my name as "FTF" to their page, or whatever.

Cachers play this game in many ways, including ways to deliberately tick people off. Present company excluded of course.

Edited October 24, 2011 by kunarion

4.2k · October 24, 2011

We didn't take a look at the rest of the roll because we thougt we were first.

Before you sign, you need to a look at the rest of the roll. Trade a few swag items (retrieve the FTF prize if there is one), leave a TB. Take a picture of the signed log page and cache contents, and post it. Place the log back in a way that it's obvious where the next person should sign.

This seems like a lot of work. I may or may not take a prize and even a photo of a blank log could have been photoshopped. Somebody who believes they are entitled to the three initials may not be satisfied in any event.

As others have said there really is nothing to claim and nothing to award. If you want to put an FTF on the log and count it in your personal stats, go ahead. If someone else wants to do the same thing, then that is fine also. I have had people claim a first after I signed a blank log (checking both sides of a single piece of paper), but the problem was easy to resolve because I never use the three initials. My log is the same for a first find as it is for a 100th. However, if the initials are important to you then go ahead and use them - any angst created by another cacher is just that.

October 24, 2011

I would generally agree with the advice just let it go or post your claim. It's all relative.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Russ!

11.8k · October 24, 2011

We didn't take a look at the rest of the roll because we thougt we were first.

Before you sign, you need to a look at the rest of the roll. Trade a few swag items (retrieve the FTF prize if there is one), leave a TB. Take a picture of the signed log page and cache contents, and post it. Place the log back in a way that it's obvious where the next person should sign.

This seems like a lot of work.

If the OP is intent to claim "FTF", then at minimum they have to verify there are no other signatures, which it seems did not occur. Even if there's no reward, whoever found it first... found it first. If it's by definition of the two finders, kind of a big deal, what's the deal with signing a random page and leaving? If you think you're FTF, and you play that way (can we grant that's what this topic is all about?), maybe it takes a little more "work" than other caches might. All parties could be observant of where and what they're signing, and do anything else which may make the find special, where future finders know you've been there.

If you think a little extra work is too onerous, maybe the extra work can prevent hard feelings. For an example of how it could be an issue, check out this recent post where someone maybe signed a random log page, then got all huffy when another finder signed the block which was specifically for the FTF to sign.

Edited October 24, 2011 by kunarion

1.8k · October 24, 2011

You've made the claim on the log. Count it as a FTF on your own records, and drop it. It no longer matters, it doesn't matter what the CO thinks, and responding in any way to abuse makes it worse. You were FTF, you know it, and nothing else makes the slightest bit of difference. Move on.

Best advice in this thread.

I agree with Keelmann & Cici / Lil Devil. Click the box in GSAK, enter the waypoint in mygeocachingprofile.com, add it to your personal bookmark list on this site... You can still do all of that without getting involved in a messy / pointless back-and-forth.

3.8k · October 24, 2011

Coming from an on-and-off FTF Hound?? Move on. It isn't that big of a deal. Just because someone misses the "FTF box" does not mean they weren't first.

3.7k · October 24, 2011

Sounds to me like you weren't FTF and the other cacher made a mistake by signing on the 2nd page. If you want to claim a FTF, of course, you can do that, but I wouldn't dwell on it too much. Really, in the grand scheme of things, keeping the community harmonious is more important than who was FTF. There will be more opportunities to be the FTF.

14k · October 24, 2011

You've made the claim on the log. Count it as a FTF on your own records, and drop it. It no longer matters, it doesn't matter what the CO thinks, and responding in any way to abuse makes it worse. You were FTF, you know it, and nothing else makes the slightest bit of difference. Move on.

Best advice in this thread.

I agree with Keelmann & Cici / Lil Devil. Click the box in GSAK, enter the waypoint in mygeocachingprofile.com, add it to your personal bookmark list on this site... You can still do all of that without getting involved in a messy / pointless back-and-forth.

One would hope so, but as is often the case, what seems to cause the messy/pointless back-and-forth isn't because someone can't claim FTF using one of those mechanisms, but that someone else is also claiming FTF. Apparently in the FTF game, not only do your own FTF numbers matter, but everyone elses FTF numbers matter too.

11.8k · October 24, 2011

Sounds to me like you weren't FTF and the other cacher made a mistake by signing on the 2nd page. If you want to claim a FTF, of course, you can do that, but I wouldn't dwell on it too much. Really, in the grand scheme of things, keeping the community harmonious is more important than who was FTF. There will be more opportunities to be the FTF.

It kinda seems that it's a paperwork issue, between two people who each signed an inappropriate spot.

I know from experience not to in any way imply that I'm claiming FTF. I once made a log "my first cache find of the day", and nearly got my head bit off (I then re-worded the log to rid it of any confusion) -- some people play FTF very seriously. I agree that it's best to not create angst, but when so many cachers do extremely horrible things to deliberately hurt people (because *ahem* "it doesn't hurt anybody" <_< ) and are vehemently defended for doing so, it doesn't seem so bad to help someone work out an issue of "FTF". Particularly when it looks like an honest mistake by both parties.

2.2k · October 24, 2011

If you believe you were the first to find then claim it as such in your own statistics and move on. Whatever the other group of cachers claim or do will not change it one bit.

Please don't bother the cache owner -- he/she has no more information than you do so he/she can't "award" anything.

October 24, 2011

Geocaching would be so much fun if not for the competition.

2.4k · October 25, 2011

Cursing at you?? Wow, there really is a lot of FTF hounds with a lot of angst against you guys. Firstly, if someone abuses you in any way then dont react to it by posting or the like, report it first so someone with a lot of power can sort the problem out. What should you do? Well, personally I would drop the matter and let them have their stinkin' FTF, as to me it doesn't seem like you are the person to get up in arms on the matter of who found it first, so be the better man and let it go.

'Huetes out

Completely off topic here, but I would like to compliment you on this post CACAHUETES. I like your style here much better....

Not all FTFers are the way described in the OP, seems like an error in where the log was signed is the issue. A mistake, and I agree...best to let it go. Rise above it.

10.1k · October 25, 2011

I would proudly list on the cache page the FTF honors to the cacher who signed the FTF spot. The other (censored) cachers deliberately signed somewhere else to be annoying. They didn't sign the FTF spot, so ignore their claim.

9.3k · October 25, 2011

What do we do?

Walk away. Participating in an angst contest, where the only reward is an anagram, seems kind of silly.

8k · October 25, 2011

What do we do?

Walk away. Participating in an angst contest, where the only reward is an anagram, seems kind of silly.

You mean an acronym. An anagram would be Riff Dots nit.

October 25, 2011

I signed on the ftf section of one of the local caches. When I got back to log it (I also got a few in the area as well) I discovered that someone else had claimed ftf. I had checked all of the log so I knew I was ftf. I emailed the guy and after he asked me what was in the cache he realized I did find it first. He was very nice about it and even put a note on the cache page saying that he was indeed not the ftf. He was new (Like me) and did not realize that some logs have a ftf section. In this case it turned out ok. I like ftf's and I usually try to get them if they are close. Sometimes you run into cachers who can get nasty. So far I have not. Let it go and keep an eye out for the next ftf in your area. Good luck!

9.3k · October 25, 2011

You mean an acronym.

To quote the venerable Homer J. Simpson, "Doh!". :lol:

Yes, acronym, not anagram.

October 25, 2011

Really who cares? It doesn't matter. You should keep your log since you signed the FTF spot and saw a blank log book. They can keep thier log because it seems to matter more to them.

Seriously, I wish more cachers would claim FTDNF.

2.3k · October 25, 2011

Seriously, I wish more cachers would claim FTDNF.

I've logged several FTDNFs. I also once tried to DNF an event (somehow managed to show up on the wrong day), but the system doesn't include that option for an event. :blink:

--Larry

October 25, 2011

I've logged several FTDNFs. I also once tried to DNF an event (somehow managed to show up on the wrong day), but the system doesn't include that option for an event.

--Larry

Have to say, that event DNF is very amusing. (Though I imagine it may not have been amusing when it happened.) Did you make a feedback suggestion to add DNF as an option for events?

2.3k · October 25, 2011

I've logged several FTDNFs. I also once tried to DNF an event (somehow managed to show up on the wrong day), but the system doesn't include that option for an event.

--Larry

Have to say, that event DNF is very amusing. (Though I imagine it may not have been amusing when it happened.) Did you make a feedback suggestion to add DNF as an option for events?

Thanks for reminding me. I meant to make that suggestion, but forgot. :rolleyes:

Regarding that event I showed up for on the wrong day, I wasn't the only one; just after I pulled into the parking lot and started wondering where all the cars were (the event was at a park picnic shelter), a friend and fellow cacher pulled in behind me. We were tempted to just publish our own mini-event for that day, and get our smiley that way. We finally decided we ought to show up at the real deal, which we did the next day.

--Larry

A follow-up thought (which sounds like the start of a bad joke): How many cachers does it take to have an event? :huh:

Edited October 25, 2011 by larryc43230

October 26, 2011

I think it only takes one person to create an Event Cache listing, however they have to be done 2 weeks or more in advance, so the mini-event idea wouldn't have worked.

I do kinda wonder if there are any cases where someone made an event and nobody came.

1.2k · October 26, 2011

he wrote on the second page

Wow does that sound horky.

We took a look at the log and on the first page the special FTF spot was still free.

Yep, that's the order that most people read (at least for english speaking countries).

If there is a burden of proof, I'd say its on him, not you.

I would proudly state in my log "Signed log on first page in the designated FTF spot and remainder of page was still empty".

That doesn't leave much question who was FTF.

3.8k · October 26, 2011

I've logged several FTDNFs. I also once tried to DNF an event (somehow managed to show up on the wrong day), but the system doesn't include that option for an event.

--Larry

Have to say, that event DNF is very amusing. (Though I imagine it may not have been amusing when it happened.) Did you make a feedback suggestion to add DNF as an option for events?

I've logged a DNF on an event.

3.8k · October 26, 2011

I would proudly list on the cache page the FTF honors to the cacher who signed the FTF spot. The other (censored) cachers deliberately signed somewhere else to be annoying. They didn't sign the FTF spot, so ignore their claim.

I highly disagree. Being FTF has nothing to do with signing within a "FTF Box" and has everything to do with finding the cache first and "signing the log". If someone missed some drawn out FTF box, lame, but does not mean, even in this side game, that they weren't first.

Some of the posts here just get crazier by the day.

Edited October 26, 2011 by bflentje

October 26, 2011

I would proudly list on the cache page the FTF honors to the cacher who signed the FTF spot. The other (censored) cachers deliberately signed somewhere else to be annoying. They didn't sign the FTF spot, so ignore their claim.

I highly disagree. Being FTF has nothing to do with signing within a "FTF Box" and has everything to do with finding the cache first and "signing the log". If someone missed some drawn out FTF box, lame, but does not mean, even in this side game, that they weren't first.

Some of the posts here just get crazier by the day.

If I read correctly, the person not only signed on the second page, but also didn't put a time next to their signature. I would think that makes their claim to FTF kinda dubious. Anytime I have made a FTF, I always put the time next to my log, if for no other reason than to let the second to find know how close (or not) they were to making it.

19k · October 26, 2011

I would proudly list on the cache page the FTF honors to the cacher who signed the FTF spot. The other (censored) cachers deliberately signed somewhere else to be annoying. They didn't sign the FTF spot, so ignore their claim.

I highly disagree. Being FTF has nothing to do with signing within a "FTF Box" and has everything to do with finding the cache first and "signing the log". If someone missed some drawn out FTF box, lame, but does not mean, even in this side game, that they weren't first.

Some of the posts here just get crazier by the day.

However, in this case, neither party knows for sure which was the first one to find the cache, and no way to prove either way. In that case, (as if it really mattered) I would give the benefit of doubt to the one that signed the FTF area.

19k · October 26, 2011

I would proudly list on the cache page the FTF honors to the cacher who signed the FTF spot. The other (censored) cachers deliberately signed somewhere else to be annoying. They didn't sign the FTF spot, so ignore their claim.

I highly disagree. Being FTF has nothing to do with signing within a "FTF Box" and has everything to do with finding the cache first and "signing the log". If someone missed some drawn out FTF box, lame, but does not mean, even in this side game, that they weren't first.

Some of the posts here just get crazier by the day.

If I read correctly, the person not only signed on the second page, but also didn't put a time next to their signature. I would think that makes their claim to FTF kinda dubious. Anytime I have made a FTF, I always put the time next to my log, if for no other reason than to let the second to find know how close (or not) they were to making it.

Can't you lie about the time?

8.3k · October 26, 2011

My take on this whole thing is the one that signed the second page and then claims the FTF is a [removed to protect my posting privileges]. They did it just so they could create drama and make a big deal about it. Which is one of the reasons I could care less about the FTF game.

October 26, 2011

You mean an acronym.

To quote the venerable Homer J. Simpson, "Doh!".

Yes, acronym, not anagram.

Isn't it also a palindrome?

2.3k · October 26, 2011

My take on this whole thing is the one that signed the second page and then claims the FTF is a [removed to protect my posting privileges]. They did it just so they could create drama and make a big deal about it. Which is one of the reasons I could care less about the FTF game.

+1

I've heard of cachers who deliberately sign on the back of the sheet or on the second page when they are FTF just to drive future finders a little crazy.

Personally, I'll occasionally go after an FTF if it's convenient and I'm looking for an excuse to get out of the house, but I couldn't () care less if someone beats me to it or if someone disputes the claim. Since FTFs aren't tallied anywhere on the big geocaching board in the sky, what possible difference can it make?

--Larry

2.3k · October 26, 2011

You mean an acronym.

To quote the venerable Homer J. Simpson, "Doh!".

Yes, acronym, not anagram.

Isn't it also a palindrome?

Now that I realize an FTF is a palindromic acronym, maybe they're worth chasing after, after all!

--Larry

October 26, 2011

FTF is a side game.

Yup that is for sure!

Sure its fun to get that FTF but its nothing to fight over. If someone wants to claim FTF then let them.

Another very true statement, a good approach to it as well

But ultimately its the CO who can "award" the FTF. Realy they make the final call. That is if they even want to bother posting the FTF on the cache page.

That couldn't be more wrong. No one awards the FTF, it just is! You are either the First to find the cache or you are not, there is no awarding. If I say that I am alive, others can agree with it but they don't gift it to me on their say so. It is an event, an occurence, not a title. By what ever standard you wish to measure it only means that you were the first to find the cache.

IMO the first to sign the log is the FTF.

Yup wherever they sign it. It isn't about satisfying the CO it is about finding a little plastic container first. I have seen some controversy about FTFs in the past but never to the point of getting upset. There are tons to get and there will be tons more in the future, last thing you want is negative emotion clouding something so fun.

October 26, 2011

Geocaching would be so much fun if not for the competition.

Really? How is anything fun without competition . I even read books competitively. :lol:

Must be my weak self-esteem!

Edited October 26, 2011 by Flintstone5611

19k · October 26, 2011

I'd just call them both co-FTF-ers and let it go. :anibad:

1.7k · October 26, 2011

IMHO.....

Since there is no real award for FTF I don't acknowledge who found my cache first. I don't care. It was found and that is it.

1.2k · October 26, 2011

WOW some people really get worked up over that sort of thing. I go for FTFs when I can and have quite a few. I would never let this much drama come into my FTF hunts. Here's the thing FTFs are not official in any way. Yes some owners (including myself) will add the FTF to the cache page. If you want to keep stats of FTFs then you can just bookmark the page or mark it in GSAK and it won't matter what the owner or other people say.

Two people claim the FTF

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