DNF Question

[+mullyman]

Ok, I put a cache out at a really cool place on top of a mountain in Shimizu, Japan. The first person to go after it logged a DNF. This person is someone that has quite a few hides that I've gone after and he's someone that I respect in the Japan GeoCaching community. Well, he went after mine today and logged a DNF. At first I felt excited that I hid it so well that someone like him didn't find it, but then I started wondering if I should be proud of myself for hiding it so well or if I should probably give a few more hints. Now, let me say that it's not really hidden in an impossible spot. Since none of you will probably *EVER* go after this cache let me fill you in. There is a set of hand laid stone steps leading up to an open area with a view over the ocean that is just incredible. Right at the top of the steps there are some old stones pushed off to the side. Honestly, I just lifted up one of the stones to see what was under there and believe it or not, there was a perfect indentation underneath it that my small tupperware bowl fit right into. I laid it there and put the stone down. I even lifted the stone up again to see if it was crushing the tupperware bowl, it wasn't. So, you see, it's not really in an impossible spot. But, I also have a feeling that the Japanese cachers aren't going to disturb things like that. It may not even enter their minds to lift up one of those stones.

 

So, what say you? Should I pat myself on the back for that DNF and leave everything as is, or should I maybe give a few more hints? Let me also say that it costs about 10 bucks to get over to where the cache is hidden, you have to ride a rope-way across a pretty large gorge. I surely don't want to be responsible for people having to shell out 10 bucks each time they go up there. If it was free I may feel a little different.

MULLY

[+mpilchfamily]

If you get several DNFs then consider adding a better hint. Also go check on the cache to make sure its still here. Then when you add the hint also add a note mentioning you have checked the cache and its still there.

[+hukilaulau]

I don't understand. Was someone's log deleted? The only DNF I see refers to someone else's log and it appears the person logging did not actually look for the cache.

Anyway, it looks like a great cache but I think you should do these things:

disable the cache right now.

go check to make sure it's still there.

when you re-activate it, give a better hint. The one about it being at the top of the stairs is useless. Any gps will get you that far.

The D/T rating needs to be higher.

Buy me a trip to Japan and I'll come look for it! (I'll even pay for the rope tow!)

[+DanOCan]

So, what say you? Should I pat myself on the back for that DNF and leave everything as is, or should I maybe give a few more hints?

 

If I hide a cache with a Difficulty of 1.5 I do not pat myself on the back when someone DNFs it. When someone DNFs one of my easier caches I feel as if I failed the cache seeker since it is a cache that was designed to be found.

 

That being said, one DNF does not a trend make. It doesn't matter how many Finds someone has, they will eventually trip up over a simple cache. If you get a string of DNFs, or there is a lot of DNFs mixed in with the Finds then I would consider adding more hints or upping the Difficulty. Until then I don't think you need to do anything.

[+mullyman]

I don't understand. Was someone's log deleted? The only DNF I see refers to someone else's log and it appears the person logging did not actually look for the cache.

Anyway, it looks like a great cache but I think you should do these things:

disable the cache right now.

go check to make sure it's still there.

when you re-activate it, give a better hint. The one about it being at the top of the stairs is useless. Any gps will get you that far.

The D/T rating needs to be higher.

Buy me a trip to Japan and I'll come look for it! (I'll even pay for the rope tow!)

 

It's there. No mistake about that at all. There was a log that someone found it. That log was a friend of mine, who was with me when I hid it. He was there this afternoon and thought he'd joke around with me by leaving a found message. I told him he wasn't getting credit for FTF and then he realized, he said "Oh God, I didn't even think about that. I could ruin this for someone" so I told him I'd delete it, which I did. I also contacted the guy that left the DNF, explained the entire situation to him and told him that the FTF is still open if he decides to go back, and yes, I apologized up one side and down the other to him. If he was here I'd give him his 10 bucks back for the rope-way ride.

 

As for the D/T rating, I went exactly by what was written on the page explaining how to rate them. It is a simple hide, all you have to do is lift up a rock. Also, as for the hint, that's where it is, at the top of the steps. Once you get to the top of those steps that rock is sitting right there on the right. It's right at the top of the steps. The only other thing I could say is that it's at the top of the steps under that rock that you look at right at when you get there. hahaha!!

 

I've found caches rated the same as this one that were much more difficult.

 

Anyway, thanks for the advice, guys. For now, no reason to de-activate it because it's been visually verified as being there just this afternoon.

MULLY

 

One other thing, I'm not trying to be argumentative, not my style at all. I don't want this post taken in the wrong way.

Edited October 16, 2011 by mullyman

[+briansnat]

I hide my caches to be found so I see a DNF as a failure on my part. I will provide detailed clues if I think it might be on the tough side. Some other geocachers hide caches in order to fool people. The more DNFs a cache receives the happier they are. You should decided which kind of cache hider you want to be.

 

Your difficulty is only 1.5 which means it should be a cinch. If an experienced cacher didn't find it perhaps it is more than a 1.5 star difficulty. If you receive more DNFs then I think your choices are either leave it at 1.5 and provide a no doubt about it hint, or rate it appropriately.

Edited October 16, 2011 by briansnat

[+geodarts]

It is under a stone. Are there other stones around? Are people going to have to tear up the area to look for it? Will people overturn and scatter the stones, start tearing up the walkway, going through other vegetation, or the like? If so, I would not worry about dnfs as much as the potential impact and provide a hint to narrow the search. Is it a long walk to the top? If so, I would provide a hint so that people can get a smiley out of the hike. Is it a busy area? If so, I would provide a hint to protect the cache. Are there woods or other things that affect gpsr reception there? If so, I would narrow the search area through a hint.

 

But that is just me. If I label my cache a 1.5 star difficulty I expect it to be found and want it to be found. Since the search is not the point of such a cache, I would provide a hint just in case.

 

On the other hand there are some people that like to do things differently.

Edited October 16, 2011 by geodarts

[+hukilaulau]

One other thing, I'm not trying to be argumentative, not my style at all. I don't want this post taken in the wrong way.

No offense, my friend! As I said, it looks like a great cache. If it was seen, then right, there's no need to disable it. The other suggestions you can do what you want with. I have no emotional investment

I'll say this, though... the terrain rating should include how tough it is to get there, not just how hard it is once you're there. Riding a cable car is more than a 1.5 any way you look at it.

I still don't get WHO looked for it and didn't find it.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

Just my thoughts based upon the CO's description. I walk up some hand laid steps to get to a beautiful scenic view. GZ gets me to a pile of old rocks. If my mental image is correct, I will most likely not disturb the grounds to search for the cache. If the area is an attraction (thus the effort put into the steps) and muggles are frequent, I definately will not be moving the rocks. A pic of GZ may help.

[+mullyman]

One other thing, I'm not trying to be argumentative, not my style at all. I don't want this post taken in the wrong way.

No offense, my friend! As I said, it looks like a great cache. If it was seen, then right, there's no need to disable it. The other suggestions you can do what you want with. I have no emotional investment

I'll say this, though... the terrain rating should include how tough it is to get there, not just how hard it is once you're there. Riding a cable car is more than a 1.5 any way you look at it.

I still don't get WHO looked for it and didn't find it.

 

Interesting....about the terrain rating. I was under the assumption that the more difficult, physically, it is to get there the terrain rating would go up. Just my opinion, but there is no effort exerted buying a ticket and riding a rope-way. There are some steps to go up and down but nothing more than average. Of course if you come up that ocean side climbing the 1156 steps then you're talking a much higher rating. BUT, I will take your advice and move the D/T up to a 2. I respect your guys opinions on these things and there seems to be a majority saying they should be higher. I'll make it so.

 

Also, I came up with a grand idea......I think. I'm going to make a video showing exactly where the cache is and leave a link to it in the description with a "MAJOR SPOILER" alert on it. People with net access on their phone will be able to access it....and this is Japan, EVERYONE has a smartphone these days. I'll also add some photos showing closer to the area to look for it.

 

As for myself, I feel horrible that that guy spent 10 bucks to get across that gorge then went away with a DNF. Honestly, if I knew him, or if I ever run into him, I'm giving him his money back. I don't want my hides to be the impossible finds, but at the same time, I don't want to just give them away. Although, with this particular one, since it does cost to ride that rope-way, I should make it a little easier on the cacher.

 

Thanks a lot for all the feedback, everyone. I am sincerely taking all these comments/opinions into consideration.

MULLY

[+Doctroid]

There are lots examples of experienced geocachers failing to find easy caches... cachers with 2000+ finds logging a DNF on a cache which the next day is logged found by someone with 37 finds. Everyone has off days and blind spots. So don't take a single DNF as proof of anything.

[+mullyman]

There are lots examples of experienced geocachers failing to find easy caches... cachers with 2000+ finds logging a DNF on a cache which the next day is logged found by someone with 37 finds. Everyone has off days and blind spots. So don't take a single DNF as proof of anything.

 

Yeah, I guess you're right, I shouldn't lay everything on one DNF, but at the same time, although I clearly wrote in the description that it costs roughly 10 bucks to ride the rope-way, I didn't really consider anyone paying that then walking away with a DNF. I surely don't want that to happen very often. Granted, whoever goes after this one will have a fantastic time at GZ and walk away with a wonderful memory, but logging a DNF will probably skew that just a little. I'm going to put some spoilers up but I want to do it in a way that it's not just "one click/done". I don't want anyone that doesn't want a spoiler to run into it by accident.

MULLY

[+captnemo]

Don't beat yourself up Mully. Your hide looks great and I would go for it if I lived near. I have DNFed a cache where I was the only one to ever do so, before and after my hunt and latter went back and found it no problem. Some days you have it and some you don't.

 

If I decide to search for a cache where a fee is involved, I know that there is a risk that I may come up empty handed. It's a risk I accept.

 

One of my early hides had 4 or 5 DNF's right off the bat with zero finds. I when out and checked and it was still there, I followed the steps and it worked but cachers still DNFed it, so I went with a friend and observed him as he worked it out by himself and found it. Funny thing is for next 6 or 7 years there was never another string of DNF's.

[+mullyman]

Don't beat yourself up Mully. Your hide looks great and I would go for it if I lived near. I have DNFed a cache where I was the only one to ever do so, before and after my hunt and latter went back and found it no problem. Some days you have it and some you don't.

 

If I decide to search for a cache where a fee is involved, I know that there is a risk that I may come up empty handed. It's a risk I accept.

 

One of my early hides had 4 or 5 DNF's right off the bat with zero finds. I when out and checked and it was still there, I followed the steps and it worked but cachers still DNFed it, so I went with a friend and observed him as he worked it out by himself and found it. Funny thing is for next 6 or 7 years there was never another string of DNF's.

 

You are absolutely correct about knowing what you're getting yourself into. It is clearly stated in the description that there is a fee. I still feel like I don't want people walking away with a DNF though.

 

Here is my vision for the caches that I put out....

 

1. I want them to be somewhere that the person looking for them can enjoy the surroundings or learn something cool. I'm currently preparing a multi that will run the length of an old rail system. The rails are no longer there, the town has been built up, but there are landmarks that you can pick out, if you look close enough, that give evidence of the old train line. This will cover about 4km from start to finish. I'm really working on the planning of this one so it turns out really cool. I'll probably go out this weekend and ride my bike over the course looking for good spots for hides. If all goes well, this should turn out to be a really cool multi. Hopefully I can do this with small/medium containers and fill them up with things relating to the deceased rail.

 

2. I want my caches to be found, but I don't want to just give them away. I don't want anyone walking away thinking "Man, that was too simple". But at the same time, I don't want them walking away with a DNF.....if possible.

 

I'm really putting a lot of thought into where and how I want to hide things. As you may have seen in a previous thread I have an entire section of Japan, 3 cities actually, all to myself. There isn't one cache on the map. This gives me an excellent opportunity to not waste any hides by just putting something out there because I can.

 

Thanks for all your guys input on this thread.

MULLY

[AZcachemeister]

It is truly unfortunate that neither of the first two attempts were successful.

 

I would much rather DNF a cache at an interesting location, than find a cache at a mundane one.

 

I would also suggest adding a 'better' hint that helps the seeker, without necessarily providing the 'flashing neon sign' pointing to the location.

[+The_Incredibles_]

For a cache that far out, I would give a very specific hint. I wouldn't want any DNFs.

 

Are you sure your coordinates are accurate?

Edited October 19, 2011 by The_Incredibles_